The magic eye in #698

[Keejus]

Who's casting it? It isn't Girard, as his spells have a purple aura. Liriam, perhaps?

[Goosefarble]

She's dead, isn't she?

My guess is it's Seniri.

[Conuly]

Well, we know Girard has an "us". Maybe it's another member of his group.

[Nimrod's Son]

Aw man, I came to this thread thinking you were going to tell us that if you look at #698 with your eyes unfocused you can see a sailboat or something.


She's dead, isn't she?
Not only dead, but (SoD spoiler)

she's also soul-bound within the gem we see Xykon holding here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)
so, yeah, Lirian is one of the few people we can say it's definitely NOT.

[Mr. Snuggles]

It's either Girard or Serini's scrying eye. The explosion notified both of them, and V cast sending to both of them as well and explained the situation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0747.html). Neither of them responded. I don't see how a thief casts such spells. My guess: Girard knows exactly what's going on and will be ready when OOTS finally meets him.

OOTS: "Hi, we're the Order of the Stick and we're on a quest to -"

Girard: (snaps) "Yes, I know all about Xykon and the gates."

OOTS: "Really? That's great, we were just going - "

Girard: (proceeds to be a huge sarcastic jerk just like every time he's had lines in the comic)

[Dr.Epic]

Who's casting it? It isn't Girard, as his spells have a purple aura. Liriam, perhaps?

The elf druid? You mean Lirian? Also, SoD spoilers...

Her soul is trapped in a crystal.

[MoonCat]

1. It is Lirian

2. Can Serini cast anything? She was a rogue.

3. If it is one of Girard's team, then I agree with Mr. Snuggles, or he will vitally misunderstand one thing.

[Leecros]

Girard: (proceeds to be a huge sarcastic jerk just like every time he's had lines in the comic)

Don't judge a book by it's cover?




woah....where did that come from? I think my good self is leaking through the pores in my skin.....halp :smalleek:

[Katana_Geldar]

2. Can Serini cast anything? She was a rogue.


She may have multi-classed, as she was considering it at some point.

[Dr.Epic]

Don't judge a book by it's cover?

Especially when some of the things on the cover aren't in the book, right MitD?

[MoonCat]

She may have multi-classed, as she was considering it at some point.

She was considering paladin, do they scry? I don't know anything about DnD

[Dr.Epic]

She was considering paladin, do they scry? I don't know anything about DnD

Nope. They don't.

[MoonCat]

Nope. They don't.

Then I think Serini probably can't scry.

[Gnome Alone]

She was considering paladin, do they scry? I don't know anything about DnD

They don't scry. And they have a very strict code of conduct. Serini is a Rogue, which was, appropriately enough, called "Thief" in previous editions of D&D, so her taking a level of paladin would pretty massively interfere with her presumable stealing activities. I think she was either flirting when she said that, or it's an example of how she was the Order of the Scribbles's Elan. In that he also blithely proposed multiclassing to classes he wasn't remotely qualified for.

[Red XIV]

In Elan's case, he was considering multiclassing to a class he lacks the stats to be good at, but that still wouldn't be as bad as multiclassing to something that actively prevents you from using the abilities of your initial class.

[MoonCat]

In Elan's case, he was considering multiclassing to a class he lacks the stats to be good at, but that still wouldn't be as bad as multiclassing to something that actively prevents you from using the abilities of your initial class.

Yeah, imagine not being able to associate with yourself. :smallbiggrin:

[Gift Jeraff]

They don't scry. And they have a very strict code of conduct. Serini is a Rogue, which was, appropriately enough, called "Thief" in previous editions of D&D, so her taking a level of paladin would pretty massively interfere with her presumable stealing activities. I think she was either flirting when she said that, or it's an example of how she was the Order of the Scribbles's Elan. In that he also blithely proposed multiclassing to classes he wasn't remotely qualified for.
As the "past = past editions" didn't apply for Xykon, I think it's safe to say it doesn't apply to the Order of the Scribble.

[Mr. Snuggles]

Don't judge a book by it's cover?
Well, if Girard is indeed Chaotic Good, then this is yet another example of how characters can be good-aligned and yet still be awful people. It makes you wonder how Serini could have a crush on such a bitter man.

I've tried to find all of Girard's voice balloons in the strip, but it's too much work. The first time he was introduced (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), he said three things, all of them cutting and rude. When he appears in the illusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html), he is also a sarcastic jerk. Furthermore, he commits attempted murder after he stops talking. It won't be fun for OOTS to deal with him, that's for sure. Maybe Girard and Belkar will strike up a friendship because they both like murder? Maybe Girard and V will get along because they both think huge explosions are acceptable solutions to life's problems?

[KingFlameHawk]

I know it has been pointed out that she is

A. dead and
B. traped in a gemstone

but when I looked at this 276 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) I noticed that Lirian's magic aura looks a lot like the same green color from 698. This doesn't mean it is Lirian but it could be someone with a connection with her.

(Really wish I had a picture of her using a spell that isn't crayon or greyscale so I could compare better)

[Gnome Alone]

As the "past = past editions" didn't apply for Xykon, I think it's safe to say it doesn't apply to the Order of the Scribble.

I know, I just thought I'd be really thorough about explaining the improbability of multi-classing rogue and paladin to someone who said they didn't know anything about D&D. Although, I assume that one picks up on "rogue" being the politically correct name for "thief" just from reading the comic, now that I think about it.

[Cizak]

...Girard: (proceeds to be a huge sarcastic jerk just like every time he's had lines in the comic)

I don't see how he's any more of a jerk than Miko, and people seemed to think she was interesting/a good character. She's been given lots more screen time, though.

[TheSummoner]

Well, if Girard is indeed Chaotic Good, then this is yet another example of how characters can be good-aligned and yet still be awful people. It makes you wonder how Serini could have a crush on such a bitter man.

I've tried to find all of Girard's voice balloons in the strip, but it's too much work. The first time he was introduced (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), he said three things, all of them cutting and rude. When he appears in the illusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html), he is also a sarcastic jerk. Furthermore, he commits attempted murder after he stops talking. It won't be fun for OOTS to deal with him, that's for sure. Maybe Girard and Belkar will strike up a friendship because they both like murder? Maybe Girard and V will get along because they both think huge explosions are acceptable solutions to life's problems?

Before anything else, I'm going to just say that I have no interest in making a big thing about whether Girard was being careful by trapping the fake gate location or whether he was being reckless and sadistic.

That said, here are the facts.

1) We have seen very little of Girard and as of now know very little about him.

2) In what little we have seen, Girard has made a joke about paladins having sticks up their asses (Someone, I believe Roy but I could be mistaken, said the very same of Miko), mocked an incredibly lame villain, and made a cutting and rude (and accurate) remark at the person he holds responsible for the death of an ally.

3) Following Kraagor's death, Girard took precautions against Soon. Whether or not it was "morally justified" or any of that nonsence that gets thrown around too often on these boards is irrelevent. What matters is that Girard took actions incase someone he percieved as a threat and an enemy made a move for the gate he was defending. He did about as much as you can do to assure a trap like that would only be triggered by someone associated with Soon (which it did. The Order got their information indirectly from Soon afterall.)

4) We have no indication of the way Girard acted towards people who weren't incredibly lame villains or people he holds responsible for the death of an ally.

5) You are judging the entire personality of a character who hasn't even appeared in person yet based on his interactions with incredibly lame villains and people he holds responsible for the death of an ally.

Can we just drop it until he appears in person?

[Morquard]

2. Can Serini cast anything? She was a rogue.

It's a skill called "Use Magic Device", using Wands would be trivial at Serinis level, and low-mid level scrolls only slightly harder, if she got some gear to push it (or has a couple of scrolls that allow her to simply try a few times).
Girard is a sorcerer, he could have easily build a few useful wands for her like that


Furthermore, he commits attempted murder after he stops talking. It won't be fun for OOTS to deal with him, that's for sure. Maybe Girard and Belkar will strike up a friendship because they both like murder? Maybe Girard and V will get along because they both think huge explosions are acceptable solutions to life's problems?
Wow back up for a second. Attempted murder?
Girard is epic level. Soon was epic level. Girard knows that.
Roy is NOT epic level, actually he's quite far from it still. Roy gets tossed through the air, but otherwise only seems disoriented and a few scratches. You really think that thing would have killed an epic level paladin, or that an epic level sorcerer would miscalculate that much?

He's an illusionist, a professional lier. Nothing he says or does can be taken at face value, the entire point behind the illusion and the explosion and the fake location could be something completely else and not "He's a jerk that hated Soon".

[Morquard]

5) You are judging the entire personality of a character who hasn't even appeared in person yet based on his interactions with incredibly lame villains and people he holds responsible for the death of an ally.

Not to mention everything we know about Girard aside from the illusion we know from whom? Shojo. Who knows it from Soon.
While I don't think Soon would lie conciously about it, that little thing called "perspective" is a really powerful thing.
If Serini had told someone the story of that conversation, and that one had told it the Order it might have sounded quite different.

[Nimrod's Son]

The first time he was introduced (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), he said three things, all of them cutting and rude. When he appears in the illusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html), he is also a sarcastic jerk.
With the exception of the Holey Brotherhood thing (which is actually the kind of thing Roy would say in that position, incidentally), every one of those examples is him talking to Soon. We don't know why he hates Soon so much, but I'm more than willing to wager that there's plenty more to it than we've so far seen.


I've tried to find all of Girard's voice balloons in the strip, but it's too much work.
There's actually only one other time he speaks, in the strip after the one in your first link. He's rude and cutting, again. But he's talking to Soon again, too, so it doesn't tell us anything about his general character.


Furthermore, he commits attempted murder after he stops talking.
Oh please. That wasn't an assassination attempt, that was practically a firework. Just a little "up yours"-type flourish to rub salt into the wound. Again, directed at someone who he hates for reasons we don't know.


If Serini had told someone the story of that conversation, and that one had told it the Order it might have sounded quite different.
Indeed; if that were the case I think the general perception of Girard would be similar to that of, say, Julio Scoundrél. :smallamused:

[factotum]

I noticed that Lirian's magic aura looks a lot like the same green color from 698. This doesn't mean it is Lirian but it could be someone with a connection with her.


There are only so many colours that could be used for magic auras, just as there are only so many hairstyles and body shapes in the comic, and just because two people are associated doesn't mean they'd have the same aura colour anyway--see Durkon and Vaarsuvius, or Redcloak and Xykon!

[Mr. Snuggles]

Wow back up for a second. Attempted murder?
"It should have been you that died. Allow me to remedy that error now" are clearly the cold, hard words of someone premeditating murder.

Roy gets tossed through the air, but otherwise only seems disoriented and a few scratches. You really think that thing would have killed an epic level paladin, or that an epic level sorcerer would miscalculate that much?
It's not if it worked or not, it's the intention. Girard expected his magical trap to kill. How could he know that a running gag comic relief character was around to break Roy's fall? The other members of the party were protected by plot armor. If not an attempt at full-on murder, then it was certainly assault with a deadly weapon. Either way, it's highly antisocial and hateful, in keeping with how Girard's character has been depicted every time he's appeared in the comic so far. Who knows? Maybe he's sunshine and happiness chaotic good? I'm just relying on canon.

The explosive magical trap? How would various in-world characters react?

Belkar :belkar: Approve. (murder is always fun, I totally premeditated, you know)
Nale :nale: Approve. (disproportionate revenge for imagined slights?)
Xykon :xykon: Approve. (but would have done it with a cool put-down and much more style)
Vaarsuvius :vaarsuvius: Approve. (has a record of blowing up party members, made a deal with fiends so he could have enough power to commit genocide)
Miko :miko: Approve. (smite anyone who thinks differently than me!)
Redcloak :redcloak: Approve. (but would have felt that it was his only choice and his conscience would torture him afterwards)

[Nimrod's Son]

Who knows? Maybe he's sunshine and happiness chaotic good? I'm just relying on canon.
"Girard hates Soon because of something that happened in their past" is canon. "Girard is a murderous, anti-social jerk" is not.

[Burner28]

Redcloak :redcloak: Approve. (but would have felt that it was his only choice and his conscience would torture him afterwards)

Unless it was done towards the humans. Redcloak is a speciest

[Mr. Snuggles]

"Girard hates Soon because of something that happened in their past" is canon. "Girard is a murderous, anti-social jerk" is not.
Huh. I don't really follow this line of reasoning. :smallconfused: Please support your assertion using examples from canon.

[SPoD]

OK, here's a new theory I just got based on the message board threads being next to one another:

What if if the magic eye was cast by the green-haired elf currently glaring at Vaarsuvius? They are both unexplained mysteries in the current story, and they are connected by the color green. Also, the elf is wearing caster's robes.

Since the prevailing opinion is that the elf is aware of V's transgressions, it could be that the elf arrived in the Empire of Blood recently, specifically to watch V after having scryed on him/her. Any connection to Girard is simply a red herring.

Thoughts?

[Innis Cabal]

Then I think Serini probably can't scry.

She can Use Magic Device though, which could allow her to scry.

[Incompleat]

Just barely possible idea, and that's a stretch:

Is there any reason why the restless spirits of two epic spellcasters, trapped inside a magical gem, should not be able to cast spells?

They cannot be powerful enough to destroy Xykon, since otherwise they would have done that already, but perhaps they can get away with some stuff and are simply biding their time...

[TimelordSimone]

Huh. I don't really follow this line of reasoning. :smallconfused: Please support your assertion using examples from canon.

Psst, he already did.


With the exception of the Holey Brotherhood thing... every one of those examples is him talking to Soon. We don't know why he hates Soon so much, but I'm more than willing to wager that there's plenty more to it than we've so far seen.

There's actually only one other time he speaks, in the strip after the one in your first link. He's rude and cutting, again. But he's talking to Soon again, too, so it doesn't tell us anything about his general character.

[Alanzeign]

"It should have been you that died. Allow me to remedy that error now" are clearly the cold, hard words of someone premeditating murder.

It's not if it worked or not, it's the intention. Girard expected his magical trap to kill. How could he know that a running gag comic relief character was around to break Roy's fall? The other members of the party were protected by plot armor. If not an attempt at full-on murder, then it was certainly assault with a deadly weapon. Either way, it's highly antisocial and hateful, in keeping with how Girard's character has been depicted every time he's appeared in the comic so far. Who knows? Maybe he's sunshine and happiness chaotic good? I'm just relying on canon.

The explosive magical trap? How would various in-world characters react?

Belkar :belkar: Approve. (murder is always fun, I totally premeditated, you know)
Nale :nale: Approve. (disproportionate revenge for imagined slights?)
Xykon :xykon: Approve. (but would have done it with a cool put-down and much more style)
Vaarsuvius :vaarsuvius: Approve. (has a record of blowing up party members, made a deal with fiends so he could have enough power to commit genocide)
Miko :miko: Approve. (smite anyone who thinks differently than me!)
Redcloak :redcloak: Approve. (but would have felt that it was his only choice and his conscience would torture him afterwards)

As stated, we have no clear information as to which way Girard would lean. He could very well be much like Haley.

Haley :haley: Approve. (killed Crystal, someone that she absolutely despised and was a mortal enemy of)

Haley doesn't run around killing people that she doesn't have to (unless they are monsters, and this isn't the thread to discuss whether that's ok or not) but yet she killed Crystal while she was pretty much defenseless. She did this because Crystal was always trying to kill her and she despised her.

While not quite the same, Girard believes that Soon was responsible for a friend's death AND the trap only affects him if he breaks his word as a paladin to be there in the first place. I'm not saying Girard is like Haley, I'm saying it is a possibility because we don't know much about him, and it is at least as much of a possibility as your theory that he is a cold-blooded murderer.

[Boogastreehouse]

Haley :haley: Approve. (killed Crystal, someone that she absolutely despised and was a mortal enemy of)

...

I'm not saying Girard is like Haley, I'm saying it is a possibility because we don't know much about him, and it is at least as much of a possibility as your theory that he is a cold-blooded murderer.

Excellent example of an alternate possibility.

[Keejus]

Sorry, Lirian. I doubt it's Serini, though, as she's only been shown with a red and brown color scheme.

It's most likely Polozius (elven ambassador) or a character who has yet to be introduced.

On the subject of Girard, there is one thing that makes me think he could very well be a Miko-level CG stereotype. Look at his weapon of choice. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)

[HappyBlanket]

Just barely possible idea, and that's a stretch:

Is there any reason why the restless spirits of two epic spellcasters, trapped inside a magical gem, should not be able to cast spells?

They cannot be powerful enough to destroy Xykon, since otherwise they would have done that already, but perhaps they can get away with some stuff and are simply biding their time...


A Soul Bound (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/soulBind.htm) character (notice the black sapphire) is, for all intents and purposes, dead, and unable to act. So unless Rich is doing some serious improvisation, it's definitely not Lirian or Dorukan.

[Nimrod's Son]

Huh. I don't really follow this line of reasoning. :smallconfused: Please support your assertion using examples from canon.
As TimelordSimone said, that would be the entire post I made before the one you quoted... which was largely addressed to you, but apparently you missed it. :smalltongue:


OK, here's a new theory I just got based on the message board threads being next to one another:

[...]

Thoughts?
That's an interesting possibility, and one that hadn't occurred to me before.

[WowWeird]

It was clearly Zz'dtri.

With the Cliffport Chief's cigar, which is the only cigar which is NOT a cigar, but rather a magical item like Xykon's crown. I mean, why would the Chief have the cigar if it weren't magical? Perish the thought!

...Damn, but I had two scoops of references in my Raisin Bran this morning.

Awww, I just did it again, didn't I. :smalltongue:

[pasko77]

Wow back up for a second. Attempted murder?
Girard is epic level. Soon was epic level. Girard knows that.
Roy is NOT epic level, actually he's quite far from it still. Roy gets tossed through the air, but otherwise only seems disoriented and a few scratches. You really think that thing would have killed an epic level paladin, or that an epic level sorcerer would miscalculate that much?


I don't like this theory.
His words were clear: he wanted Soon dead. As for the explosion not strong enough, we can suppose that magic has gone weaker with time. As you recall, he was expecting the paladin to break his oath in a month, tops. After 50+ years, the spell must have wearied.

The whole "fireworks" thing, otoh, doesn't make sense, imo.

[Gitman00]

I don't like this theory.
His words were clear: he wanted Soon dead. As for the explosion not strong enough, we can suppose that magic has gone weaker with time. As you recall, he was expecting the paladin to break his oath in a month, tops. After 50+ years, the spell must have wearied.

The whole "fireworks" thing, otoh, doesn't make sense, imo.

That's not how magic works in DnD. Unless something triggers or dispels it, a spell will remain intact until doomsday. That explosion didn't even kill Vaarsuvius, who probably has the fewest hit points of anyone in the party. V has roughly 60 hp, going by the Class and Level Geekery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131219) thread. Soon, as an epic-level paladin, should have at minimum 115 hp, assuming 21st level, average die rolls and no CON bonus. He probably has much more than that, and Girard would know it. If his trap doesn't take out V, he can't have expected it to kill Soon. If he was serious about killing Soon, it would be easy enough to make it a save-or-die Wail of the Banshee trap.

The most likely explanation is that it's a bluff. If Soon really had shown up, the trap was basically flipping him the bird. If it was anyone else, it would both throw them off the scent and notify Girard.

[Swordpriest]

"Girard hates Soon because of something that happened in their past" is canon. "Girard is a murderous, anti-social jerk" is not.

Yes, because leaving a lethal trap with a 10% chance of killing the wrong person isn't murderous, isn't anti-social, and isn't being a jerk. :smallsigh:

"Well, I calculate that there's only a 10% chance that the mailman will step on this spot before my neighbor does, so since I loathe him, I'll bury a landmine here. Heck, a 1 in 10 chance of blowing the legs off a harmless letter delivery man ain't so bad .... why do people always say I'm a murderous jackass?"

[PsychedelicBard]

Yes, because leaving a lethal trap with a 10% chance of killing the wrong person isn't murderous, isn't anti-social, and isn't being a jerk. :smallsigh:

"Well, I calculate that there's only a 10% chance that the mailman will step on this spot before my neighbor does, so since I loathe him, I'll bury a landmine here. Heck, a 1 in 10 chance of blowing the legs off a harmless letter delivery man ain't so bad .... why do people always say I'm a murderous jackass?"

Not many people wander into the desert and say the words "Gate, Girard, Sapphire Guard and Soon".

[Swordpriest]

Not many people wander into the desert and say the words "Gate, Girard, Sapphire Guard and Soon".

And yet he still said that there was a 10% chance that someone else would be blown up by his trap, and this was acceptable to him.

[TheSummoner]

Yes... Because there is a reliable metric for measuring the odds of that sort of thing... Right?

All things considered, 10% seems incredibly generous. I'm not saying it would've been impossible for someone with absolutly no connection to Soon to be in a particular patch of barren wasteland and say those four things but... Well... One in a million and not in the dramatic way that makes other one in a million things guaranteed to happen.

Edit: And now that I think about it a little more, 10% does not mean "There is a 10% chance you are an innocent bystander being blasted to hell." It means that there is a chance that someone else is seeking the gates for whatever reason other than Soon and got the (false) coordinates out of him somehow. (I still say 10% is a number Girard pulled from his butt.)

The Order fits that group. Hell, Xykon could've been that group had he gotten his information by torturing the Sapphire Guard instead of from the diary.

[Swordpriest]

Yes... Because there is a reliable metric for measuring the odds of that sort of thing... Right?

All things considered, 10% seems incredibly generous. I'm not saying it would've been impossible for someone with absolutly no connection to Soon to be in a particular patch of barren wasteland and say those four things but... Well... One in a million and not in the dramatic way that makes other one in a million things guaranteed to happen.

It doesn't matter what the actual odds are. If he thought, when he put the trap there, that it had a 10% chance of blowing someone else's face off, and was still willing to do it, then that certainly places him firmly in the "jerk" category and probably "murderous jerk" as well.

[Mr. Snuggles]

As TimelordSimone said, that would be the entire post I made before the one you quoted... which was largely addressed to you, but apparently you missed it.
I went back and looked again. Was this below the post you meant? The one with all your opinions in it? "Canon" means the words out of a character's (author's) mouth. Sorry, I didn't define the term before using it.


With the exception of the Holey Brotherhood thing (which is actually the kind of thing Roy would say in that position, incidentally), every one of those examples is him talking to Soon. We don't know why he hates Soon so much, but I'm more than willing to wager that there's plenty more to it than we've so far seen.
OPINION. Not from canon.


There's actually only one other time he speaks, in the strip after the one in your first link. He's rude and cutting, again. But he's talking to Soon again, too, so it doesn't tell us anything about his general character.
OPINION. Not from canon. You can tell a lot about a person by the way he treats his worst enemy. How would the comic's various evildoers treat their worst enemy?

Belkar :belkar: "Have you ever seen your own lungs before?"
Nale :nale: "I'm going to sacrifice your corpse to demons."
Xykon :xykon: "You can't even imagine the ways I'm going to hurt you."
Vaarsuvius :vaarsuvius: "Familicide!"
Miko :miko: "Die, evildoer!" (Miko is then struck down by the gods for her faulty judgment)
Redcloak :redcloak: "I can't allow you to harm my race. It's for the greater good."


Oh please. That wasn't an assassination attempt, that was practically a firework. Just a little "up yours"-type flourish to rub salt into the wound.
OPINION. According to canon, i.e. Girard's own words, he expected the blast to be lethal.

Come on, you can't draw your own conclusions and say that they came from the comic. One of the comic's central themes is that each character only has access to the information that he or she has seen, personally. Saying that Girard isn't a murderous bastard simply isn't supported by the actions that we have witnessed firsthand. Maybe he's not! Who can say?


Haley :haley: Approve. (killed Crystal, someone that she absolutely despised and was a mortal enemy of)
There's the little fact that Crystal was evil. EEEEEE-VIL! Attempting to murder a Lawful Good character like Soon is a different story entirely. It's worse when Girard's motivation is a personal vendetta of revenge. Even Miko did her evil act out of hotblooded passion, without really thinking it through. It's not like she premeditated a murder and then set a trap for Belkar, or crept in to Lord Shojo's bedroom at night and stuck a knife in his chest.

Again, maybe you can say "Girard's motivation was this, that, or the other." The fact is, we simply don't know, and all we have are Girard's own words. Well, Girard's words as related by the Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard. And his own words paint him at best as a real jerk, in my opinion. At worst, a murderer every bit the equal of Belkar. Actually, worse than Belkar, as Belkar just murders as he feels like it (second degree murder/crime of passion) as opposed to Girard's depraved heart murder (first degree murder/premeditated crime).

[Shale]

Here's the thing: Girard's 10% wasn't too high. It was far, far, far too low. The chance that Soon or any of his order would break their oath and try to interfere in the other Scribblers' gates without a massive threat was tiny. We've seen that firsthand. So if somebody did come to the coordinates Girard gave Soon looking for a gate, it was virtually guaranteed that they wouldn't deserve to be blown up. Girard, for some reason, let himself be blinded by his hate for Soon, which is no less his fault than the part where he decided a 10% chance to blow up innocent people is just peachy.

[Gitman00]

Edit: And now that I think about it a little more, 10% does not mean "There is a 10% chance you are an innocent bystander being blasted to hell." It means that there is a chance that someone else is seeking the gates for whatever reason other than Soon and got the (false) coordinates out of him somehow. (I still say 10% is a number Girard pulled from his butt.)

The Order fits that group. Hell, Xykon could've been that group had he gotten his information by torturing the Sapphire Guard instead of from the diary.

That's exactly right. Among the remaining 10%, it is still virtually certain that they will be someone deliberately looking for the gate, and Girard wants to prevent them finding it for very good reasons. I also agree that Girard's statements cannot be taken at face value. He's an illusionist. Deception is his stock in trade.

Edit @ Mr. Snuggles:


There's the little fact that Crystal was evil. EEEEEE-VIL! Attempting to murder a Lawful Good character like Soon is a different story entirely. It's worse when Girard's motivation is a personal vendetta of revenge.

Yeah, I agree it would be, if he really intended to murder him. If Girard's trap couldn't take out Vaarsuvius, then there's no way it was going to kill Soon. So we have two options: either Girard is completely incompetent, or he wasn't earnestly trying to kill Soon. I favor the latter.

[Mr. Snuggles]

Yeah, I agree it would be, if he really intended to murder him. If Girard's trap couldn't take out Vaarsuvius, then there's no way it was going to kill Soon. So we have two options: either Girard is completely incompetent, or he wasn't earnestly trying to kill Soon. I favor the latter.
Plot Armor: For some reason (and not even an explicit ability), just being the main character or on his team protects you from death, serious wounds, and generally any sort of harm until dramatically appropriate.

Novice viewers will often confuse plot armor with more justified survival explanations.

[Shale]

See also: Right before Tarquin first appeared, Elan, Haley and Vaarsuvius walked through a Blade Barrier, damage at least 11d6, and suffered only minor scratches.

[HerbieRAI]

if he really intended to murder him. If Girard's trap couldn't take out Vaarsuvius, then there's no way it was going to kill Soon. So we have two options: either Girard is completely incompetent, or he wasn't earnestly trying to kill Soon. I favor the latter.

While I do agree that the blast wasn't strong enough to kill an epic paladin, I think you should use Roy as the reasoning instead of V. The damage could be based on alignment (Lawful probably), which would leave V not too damaged, but hurt Soon and his pallys. I still think you are right with the whole bluff thing, because Roy should have less hp and worse reflex saves than Soon, and Roy did live through it. Of course none of this is canon, but I think it would be the best explination for the "He was trying to kill Soon".

This would also help the 10% issue, since if the listeners were not associated with Soon, they would then have to be lawful to take massive damage. Although I think if Haley or V had a 90% chance of destroying Xykon with the other 10% killing the rest of the Azure city refugees, she'd take it.

* I think 10% was a decent estimate for him, since 2 of the activation words were Soon (a secret ruler that few in azure city knew about) and sapphire guard (another secret organization on another conteninent).

EDIT: @ shale: that blade barrier is between 11 and 66 damage. V has roughly 60 hp (Geekery). Survivable, but very damaged.

[Nimrod's Son]

Yes, because leaving a lethal trap with a 10% chance of killing the wrong person isn't murderous, isn't anti-social, and isn't being a jerk. :smallsigh:
Looks more like a 0.00005% chance of killing anyone full stop to me. And I never said he wasn't CAPABLE of being a jerk, just that we can't assume he's like that with everyone. All his ire so far has been directed at Soon. No one else. We simply have no idea yet if his grudge was justified.


"Well, I calculate that there's only a 10% chance that the mailman will step on this spot before my neighbor does, so since I loathe him, I'll bury a landmine here. Heck, a 1 in 10 chance of blowing the legs off a harmless letter delivery man ain't so bad .... why do people always say I'm a murderous jackass?"
Not even vaguely analogous, so I won't even bother with this.


It doesn't matter what the actual odds are. If he thought, when he put the trap there, that it had a 10% chance of blowing someone else's face off, and was still willing to do it, then that certainly places him firmly in the "jerk" category and probably "murderous jerk" as well.
And if he didn't think the trap would kill Soon, and was just trying to wind him up? What does that make him? Presumably still a murderous jerk, as that's apparently the stone-cold truth of the matter. :smallsigh:

(I expect Girard considers keeping EVERYONE well away from his gate is more important than not appearing like a jerk, too, but hey.)


"Canon" means the words out of a character's (author's) mouth. Sorry, I didn't define the term before using it.
That's not what canon means. If a character (say, for the sake of argument, a character who specialises in deception :smallwink:) says a bunch of lies, that doesn't make those lies "canon". It simply means the fact that he told those lies is canon. There is NOTHING canon at this present moment in the strip that says "Girard definitely tried to murder Soon", and Girard's signing-off words don't change that.


Not from canon. You can tell a lot about a person by the way he treats his worst enemy. How would the comic's various evildoers treat their worst enemy?

Belkar :belkar: "Have you ever seen your own lungs before?"
Nale :nale: "I'm going to sacrifice your corpse to demons."
Xykon :xykon: "You can't even imagine the ways I'm going to hurt you."
Vaarsuvius :vaarsuvius: "Familicide!"
Miko :miko: "Die, evildoer!" (Miko is then struck down by the gods for her faulty judgment)
Redcloak :redcloak: "I can't allow you to harm my race. It's for the greater good."
:roy: "Oh my gods, I am so going to crawl up there and kill you."
:haley: "I'll kill anyone he sends after me. Especially you."

Yeah, turns out even Good people can hate enough to kill. But ALL of these examples are completely irrelevant, we're talking specifically about Girard and Soon. And as I keep saying, at this point we don't know who (if either) is in the right here. Maybe Girard IS a murderous nutcase. On the other hand, maybe Girard saw Soon push Kraagor into the rift to save his own skin and get it sealed quicker, making Girard's grudge more than justified. At this point, who knows?


Come on, you can't draw your own conclusions and say that they came from the comic. One of the comic's central themes is that each character only has access to the information that he or she has seen, personally. Saying that Girard isn't a murderous bastard simply isn't supported by the actions that we have witnessed firsthand. Maybe he's not! Who can say?
This is EXACTLY what I've been saying. I'm not making ANY judgement call on Girard whatsoever. Or Soon, for that matter. I'm arguing against the idea that Girard is definitely a murderous prick and it's supported by in-comic evidence. It's not.


I also agree that Girard's statements cannot be taken at face value. He's an illusionist. Deception is his stock in trade.

[...]

So we have two options: either Girard is completely incompetent, or he wasn't earnestly trying to kill Soon. I favor the latter.
Just quoting this because it bears repeating.


See also: Right before Tarquin first appeared, Elan, Haley and Vaarsuvius walked through a Blade Barrier, damage at least 11d6, and suffered only minor scratches.
Well, Haley has evasion so she didn't even get scratched. :smallwink:

That's kinda different though, since Blade Barrier is statted out; Girard's explosion isn't. We don't know for sure whether it was a legitimate attempt to harm Soon or a glorified version of V's Explosive Runes pranks on Belkar, but the latter explanation makes a hell of a lot more sense to me. If one epic-level character sets a death-trap for another, I'd expect it to be at least somewhat deadly, y'know?

[Swordpriest]

didn't[/i] think the trap would kill Soon, and was just trying to wind him up? What does that make him? Presumably still a murderous jerk, as that's apparently the stone-cold truth of the matter. :smallsigh:



I'm not talking about Soon. I'm talking about that he's willing to take a 10% chance of killing someone randomly in order to do whatever he wanted to do to get back at Soon for something Soon didn't actually do.

How's this for a better comparison. Someone has a hated enemy, and rhey know they have a 90% of hitting him if they shoot at him. Would that person be a jerk if they took a shot at him in a crowd of random people, knowing that they had a 10% chance of killing some random stranger?

I'd say that being willing to take that kind of chance for no other reason than personal dislike makes someone a pretty big jackass.

Thus, until further notice, I do consider Girard's status as "clown and jerk" as objectively proven.

[TheSummoner]

I'm not talking about Soon. I'm talking about that he's willing to take a 10% chance of killing someone randomly in order to do whatever he wanted to do to get back at Soon for something Soon didn't actually do.

How's this for a better comparison. Someone has a hated enemy, and rhey know they have a 90% of hitting him if they shoot at him. Would that person be a jerk if they took a shot at him in a crowd of random people, knowing that they had a 10% chance of killing some random stranger?

I'd say that being willing to take that kind of chance for no other reason than personal dislike makes someone a pretty big jackass.

Thus, until further notice, I do consider Girard's status as "clown and jerk" as objectively proven.

Except it isn't a 1 in 10 chance of killing some random innocent bystander. It is a 1 in a million chance of killing an innocent bystander and a 999,999 in a million chance of harming/killing someone deliberately seeking out the gates (and a 9,000,000 in 10,000,000 chance of hitting Soon or one of his paladins if we take Girard's numbers at face value).


I'm not saying it would've been impossible for someone with absolutly no connection to Soon to be in a particular patch of barren wasteland and say those four things but... Well... One in a million and not in the dramatic way that makes other one in a million things guaranteed to happen.

[...] 10% does not mean "There is a 10% chance you are an innocent bystander being blasted to hell." It means that there is a chance that someone else is seeking the gates for whatever reason other than Soon and got the (false) coordinates out of him somehow.

The Order fits that group. Hell, Xykon could've been that group had he gotten his information by torturing the Sapphire Guard instead of from the diary.

That's exactly right. Among the remaining 10%, it is still virtually certain that they will be someone deliberately looking for the gate, and Girard wants to prevent them finding it for very good reasons.

[Shale]

Looks more like a 0.00005% chance of killing anyone full stop to me. And I never said he wasn't CAPABLE of being a jerk, just that we can't assume he's like that with everyone. All his ire so far has been directed at Soon. No one else. We simply have no idea yet if his grudge was justified.

We don't know if Girard's grudge was justified. We DO know that his mistrust of Soon was completely wrongheaded. He assumed that if the Sapphire Guard sent anyone to his gate there was practically zero chance they were there for legitimately helpful reasons, and risked both the emissaries' lives and the potential fate of the world on that decision, which was entirely wrong. How does that not reflect poorly on him?


That's kinda different though, since Blade Barrier is statted out; Girard's explosion isn't. We don't know for sure whether it was a legitimate attempt to harm Soon or a glorified version of V's Explosive Runes pranks on Belkar, but the latter explanation makes a hell of a lot more sense to me. If one epic-level character sets a death-trap for another, I'd expect it to be at least somewhat deadly, y'know?

We DO know that Blade Barrier is supposed to be a deadly spell, but it had next to no effect on a rogue (understandable, with Evasion), a multiclassed Bard, and an immobilized single-class elf wizard with middling-at-best Con. If attacks that we know to be legitimately lethal, like Blade Barrier, don't cause serious damage to the PCs, you can't say that Attack X, whatever it is, can't be lethal because it didn't cause serious damage to the PCs.

[Nimrod's Son]

I'm not talking about Soon. I'm talking about that he's willing to take a 10% chance of killing someone randomly in order to do whatever he wanted to do to get back at Soon for something Soon didn't actually do.
Fine, I'll rephrase: What does it make him if he was pretty certain it wasn't going to kill anyone?


Thus, until further notice, I do consider Girard's status as "clown and jerk" as objectively proven.
As is your right. It's predominantly the "murderous" and "as bad as, if not worse than, Belkar" stuff I'm arguing against anyway. As I said, Girard is probably much more concerned with keeping his gate secret than he is with winning friends.


We don't know if Girard's grudge was justified. We DO know that his mistrust of Soon was completely wrongheaded.
Which would make him... wrong. Not a terrible person, and not a murderer. We simply don't know enough about him to make those kind of calls yet.


How does that not reflect poorly on him?
Well, let's suppose for a minute that Girard has guarded his gate so well that Xykon is incapable of getting to it. Let's further suppose that the Order finds a way in, possibly with Tarquin's help, and then some antic of theirs results in the destruction of the gate even though it was never really in danger from Xykon anyway. If that were to happen, with the benefit of hindsight wouldn't Girard's obsessive secrecy have seemed somewhat justified - and that Soon, the Order or any other would-be do-gooder would have been better off just leaving well alone?

As I've repeatedly said, I'm holding off judgment on any of the Scribble lot until we know a good deal more about them. So far their animosities have only been skirted around, but they're likely to be explored more directly at some point ("What the hell happened between these people to turn them against each other like this? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html)") and, knowing Rich, I'm sure things will be a lot more complicated than they've been presented to us so far.

[Cracklord]

Yeah, turns out even Good people can hate enough to kill. But ALL of these examples are completely irrelevant, we're talking specifically about Girard and Soon. And as I keep saying, at this point we don't know who (if either) is in the right here. Maybe Girard IS a murderous nutcase. On the other hand, maybe Girard saw Soon push Kraagor into the rift to save his own skin and get it sealed quicker, making Girard's grudge more than justified. At this point, who knows?


Note. We have seen Soon, in comic, not tarnished by perception. He was awesome. He solo'd Xykon and Redcloak, he talked sense into Miko, he gave the impression of being wise, powerful, perceptive and his word being every bit as unbreakable as he promised, so much so that he came down from heaven to kick the ass of a lich who messed up his city.

Does this seem to be the sort of person Girard describes?

I have to agree with everyone else. Girard seems paranoid, delusional, acting like a douche, and probably blaming Soon as a way of escaping his own percieved failure, or something to that effect. A horrible judge of character, and a douchebag who throws around power.

[Gift Jeraff]

I'm not sure what to think of Girard, but, assuming the "the explosion was a bluff" is true, maybe it does percentage-based damage? That way anyone--from an epic-level paladin to a level 1 commoner--who encounters it would think "man, this guy is serious about trying to kill me!"

Veering towards the "Girard is a murderous madman" side, maybe he purposefully designed the spell to get weaker with time? Since, as time goes by, it becomes less likely that Soon is even alive to break his Oath.

Also, I'd like to bring up the fact that anyone--good or bad--who entered Lirian's Glade would lose the ability to cast spells. Not nearly as bad as (possibly) attempted murder, but still. I'm also doubting the monsters in Kraagor's Gate attack based on alignment or intent, mostly because that would be very boring for our heroes.

[Nimrod's Son]

Note. We have seen Soon, in comic, not tarnished by perception. He was awesome.
Yes, and Girard has not yet had that privilege. What's your point?


He solo'd Xykon and Redcloak
Yep, he's an amazing fighter all right. Hopefully Girard's illusions will be equally impressive when we finally meet him.


he talked sense into Miko
No, he talked sense to Miko, not into her. The whole point about Miko is that she died unreedemed. Soon's hardly alone in that regard, anyway - lots of people spoke sense to Miko. She just knew best, that's all.


he gave the impression of being wise, powerful, perceptive and his word being every bit as unbreakable as he promised, so much so that he came down from heaven to kick the ass of a lich who messed up his city.

Does this seem to be the sort of person Girard describes?
I DON'T KNOW YET. Geez, am I accidentally writing half my posts in white?

It does appear, though, that the other members of the Scribble side with Girard at least to a degree. There's a reason for that, I'm sure. I am so sick of writing "We don't know what it is yet" in this thread, but sod it, in for a penny: WE DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS YET.

Do I really have to keep repeating that I'm not making any judgment on any of them, for good or ill; I'm simply pointing out that the idea that there is in-comic evidence that Girard is a "murderous jerk" and "as bad as Belkar, arguably worse" is flat-out untrue?


I have to agree with everyone else. Girard seems paranoid, delusional, acting like a douche, and probably blaming Soon as a way of escaping his own percieved failure, or something to that effect. A horrible judge of character, and a douchebag who throws around power.
Seems. Seems. As in your perception. That's good, you used the correct word there. I'll just mumble something about Girard being a master of deception and wander off in weary resignation now, I reckon.

[TheSummoner]

Note. We have seen Soon, in comic, not tarnished by perception. He was awesome. He solo'd Xykon and Redcloak, he talked sense into Miko, he gave the impression of being wise, powerful, perceptive and his word being every bit as unbreakable as he promised, so much so that he came down from heaven to kick the ass of a lich who messed up his city.

Does this seem to be the sort of person Girard describes?

I have to agree with everyone else. Girard seems paranoid, delusional, acting like a douche, and probably blaming Soon as a way of escaping his own percieved failure, or something to that effect. A horrible judge of character, and a douchebag who throws around power.

We have also seen Soon, in a flashback that is at best unbiased and at worst, biased in Soon's favor commanding Lirian and Dorukan to, against their better judgement, seal the rift that would become Kraagor's gate while he and Kraagor were still fighting the Snarl. Then in the next panel, we see a dead Kraagor.

There could be more to the story, but based on what we have seen the only real conclusion is that Lirian and Dorukan sealing the rift resulted in Kraagor's death and that they only did it when they did because Soon ordered them to.

Now... Based only on what we know from the story that Soon himself originally told, without any "what if's" or "X could've happened," how the hell is Kraagor's death Girard's fault in any way? How did is Girard's grudge against Soon a way of "escaping his own percieved failure"? Should he have forcibly intervened and stopped the casting of the spell? Should he have shouted not to do it and hoped they listened to him over their own party leader? Soon gave the command, Lirian and Dorukan only cast the spell because of his order. Unless theres more to the story that we do not know, Soon is responsible.

Maybe Soon was torn up over giving that order for the rest of his life... Maybe he considered it a necessary sacrifice for the sake of the rest of the world. Girard, pretty clearly thought it was an unforgivable that Soon would throw around his power and order two allies who otherwise would've waited until a more ideal time to do something that resulted in the death of an ally.

Girard may have been wrong about Soon coming for his gate, but hes got a pretty good reason to be mad at the guy.

[Mr. Snuggles]

I'm simply pointing out that the idea that there is in-comic evidence that Girard is a "murderous jerk" and "as bad as Belkar, arguably worse" is flat-out untrue?
The entire idea is based on Girard's in-comic actions, nothing more, nothing less. That's where the idea comes from.

And I'd use a milder tone, if I were you. Some of your responses in this thread could be interpreted as being a jerk.

[pasko77]

That's not how magic works in DnD. Unless something triggers or dispels it, a spell will remain intact until doomsday.

But we have seen that OOTSverse tends to differ from dnd canon.
As you correctly point out, the explosion didn't kill a mage... it makes little sense. If it was not meant as harm, but as insult, there were better ways.
Materialize a ton of dung, for instance.

[SPoD]

I'm always amazed by the people willing to condemn Girard but not Dorukan--the guy who put a magical rune on his gate that would kill anyone who walked too close to it. Everyone is willing to blast Girard over the theoretical paladins who may have come looking for his gate and died but no one cares about the theoretical adventurers who could have been exploring Dorukan's dungeon just for treasure and XP and been killed by that rune.

The only differences between the two is that they had different ideas over who was the greatest threat to the Gates, and Girard's idea turned out to be incorrect.

[Nimrod's Son]

And I'd use a milder tone, if I were you. Some of your responses in this thread could be interpreted as being a jerk.
Could they be interpreted as being murderous, too?

[TimelordSimone]

I'm always amazed by the people willing to condemn Girard but not Dorukan--the guy who put a magical rune on his gate that would kill anyone who walked too close to it.


Also, I'd like to bring up the fact that anyone--good or bad--who entered Lirian's Glade would lose the ability to cast spells. Not nearly as bad as (possibly) attempted murder, but still. I'm also doubting the monsters in Kraagor's Gate attack based on alignment or intent, mostly because that would be very boring for our heroes.

THIS.

(Although, thinking about it, Dorukan's Gate had that whole 'of pure heart' deal. Would Elan have died if he'd touched the gate?)

[doodthedud]

My guess?

Soon was so dedicated to doing his duty and being an honorable man that he seemed inhuman. His self-control made him come off as an emotionless monster to his friends, as the hardships they all faced weighed so much on them, but seemingly didn't on him, since he didn't show it very well. He showed no sadness, no regret (since he was the one that ordered the spell to be cast that caused Kraagor's death), no grief.

And when you are dealing with horrible situations, you want an outlet for your fear and grief. Why not that apparent monster who doesn't even care?

Reposting this from another thread because it seemed relevant with the discussion of Soon and Girard.

[SPoD]

THIS.

(Although, thinking about it, Dorukan's Gate had that whole 'of pure heart' deal. Would Elan have died if he'd touched the gate?)

No, Xykon theorized that the Gate had the whole "of pure heart" thing, a theory that was never actually tested. We don't know if Elan would have died by touching the Gate or not, but Xykon was willing to experiment empirically.

Based on what we know to be fact, Dorukan's Gate was just as deadly as Girard's trap...probably more so, because it was active at all times and did enough damage to destroy Xykon's body.

[factotum]

I'm always amazed by the people willing to condemn Girard but not Dorukan--the guy who put a magical rune on his gate that would kill anyone who walked too close to it.

Dorukan's rune wouldn't kill *anyone* who came too close, only evil beings who came too close. Hence the plan to get one of the Order to touch the rune instead.

Girard's trap, on the other hand, made no checks at all who it was blowing up--he assumed it would be Soon standing there and didn't apparently care if it happened to be someone else.

[SPoD]

Dorukan's rune wouldn't kill *anyone* who came too close, only evil beings who came too close. Hence the plan to get one of the Order to touch the rune instead.

That's an untested hypothesis on Xykon's part. See my above post.

[factotum]

That's an untested hypothesis on Xykon's part. See my above post.

Well, if we're going to start assuming stuff just because we didn't see it, I can assume that Girard sent a ninja to kill Soon on his birthday every year. We didn't not see it happen, after all. :smallwink:

[doodthedud]

Dorukan's rune wouldn't kill *anyone* who came too close, only evil beings who came too close.


Well, if we're going to start assuming stuff just because we didn't see it

...."I'll assume this and then mock people for assuming things."

[SPoD]

Well, if we're going to start assuming stuff just because we didn't see it, I can assume that Girard sent a ninja to kill Soon on his birthday every year. We didn't not see it happen, after all. :smallwink:

There is a big difference between assuming things happened that we did not see, and NOT assuming things happened because we did not see them.

I did not see anyone who was pure of heart touch the gate and live. I did not see Girard send a ninja to kill soon on his birthday every year. Therefore, I assume that neither of these things happened until the strip proves me wrong.

The fact that Xykon had a theory that the pure of heart could touch the Gate and live is no more proof that it actually was true than it would be if Roy suddenly said, "Hey, I bet Girard sent a ninja to kill Soon every year on his birthday." If Roy said that, we would all rightly conclude that Roy was making a wild guess. It may be a guess that would be in-character, but it is still a GUESS.

And we can't make accurate judgments of what is or is not true based on the guesses of non-omniscient characters who have no evidence.

[TimelordSimone]

No, Xykon theorized that the Gate had the whole "of pure heart" thing, a theory that was never actually tested. We don't know if Elan would have died by touching the Gate or not, but Xykon was willing to experiment empirically.

Based on what we know to be fact, Dorukan's Gate was just as deadly as Girard's trap...probably more so, because it was active at all times and did enough damage to destroy Xykon's body.

Okay, fair point.
In that case, Soon's was/is really the only Gate that doesn't assault whoever happens to wander by?

[TheSummoner]

Soon's gate had an army of paladins guarding it with their lord sitting right infront of it. You can bet they'd stop anyone from getting too close (violently if need be)

Additionally... Girard's GATE hasn't done anything yet... We just know that he set a trap in a random patch of desert for anyone specifically looking for it.

[TimelordSimone]

Soon's gate had an army of paladins guarding it with their lord sitting right infront of it. You can bet they'd stop anyone from getting too close (violently if need be)

On the other hand, they bring people who are known to have destroyed one Gate already into the throne room in order to hold a trial. :smallamused:

[TheSummoner]

Heh, that's pretty ironic now that you mention it.

[mago]

Hmmm...
I wonder, who else than lackeys of soon could be standing there, saying those words?
well, there are agents of Serini, Liriam or Durokan perhaps. Then again, they would probably say something to the effect of "Gate, Girard, Dorukan, redmountain hills" Or "Gate, Girard, Liriam, Hot elven chick," though it's possible that girard has given them propper co-ordinates. In that case, it's very possible that there wouldn't be a booty-trap added to the infomercial.
The other possibility is, more or less, villains. That's certainly how it is in the actual story, with nale knowing the same coordinates. Similarly, someone powerfull enough to be a threat to the gates could certainly tortured the coordinates out of shojo, or broken him with magic.

[Phishfood]

Gate? What gate?

Seriously though, we have no proof that the rune above the gate is selective, however you'd think he wouldn't want a rune that coul kill him if he got too close to it by accident surely, or one of his employees for that matter.

Of course, that could be a matter of "employee ID" of some form.

[SPoD]

Gate? What gate?

Seriously though, we have no proof that the rune above the gate is selective, however you'd think he wouldn't want a rune that coul kill him if he got too close to it by accident surely, or one of his employees for that matter.

Of course, that could be a matter of "employee ID" of some form.

That's pretty easily handled by casting an Arcane Mark on everyone with a legitimate reason to be so close to the gate and then creating the rune so that it ignored people with that Arcane Mark. Though note that even Celia didn't know about the Gate, so maybe that was just handled with, "Don't go into my study, ever."

[Porthos]

No, Xykon theorized that the Gate had the whole "of pure heart" thing, a theory that was never actually tested. We don't know if Elan would have died by touching the Gate or not, but Xykon was willing to experiment empirically.

Based on what we know to be fact, Dorukan's Gate was just as deadly as Girard's trap...probably more so, because it was active at all times and did enough damage to destroy Xykon's body.

Isn't the presumption that the Sigil on the Gate is similar to all of the other Sigils around Durokan's Dungeon a reasonable one, though? Not proof, sure. But it seems to be a reasonable presumption.

If you're Good-Aligned you can touch the Gate. If not, kerplooie.

...

Though, come to think of it, that makes Haley's touching of the Air Sigil an interesting plot point. :smallwink:

Edited in because I just thought about it:

There is a big difference between assuming things happened that we did not see, and NOT assuming things happened because we did not see them.

I did not see anyone who was pure of heart touch the gate and live. I did not see Girard send a ninja to kill soon on his birthday every year. Therefore, I assume that neither of these things happened until the strip proves me wrong.

The fact that Xykon had a theory that the pure of heart could touch the Gate and live is no more proof that it actually was true than it would be if Roy suddenly said, "Hey, I bet Girard sent a ninja to kill Soon every year on his birthday." If Roy said that, we would all rightly conclude that Roy was making a wild guess. It may be a guess that would be in-character, but it is still a GUESS.

And we can't make accurate judgments of what is or is not true based on the guesses of non-omniscient characters who have no evidence.

Weren't you just arguing about the Theory of Narrative Causality in another thread? :smalltongue: It seems to me that if someone has a series of traps that guard Major Things of Power set to be disarmed in one way, it might be logical to expect that another one that guards a Major Thing of Power to be disarmed in a similar way. Absent of any other clues, that is.

Is it proof? No, as you say. But I think it is a fairly reasonable idea.

And one, absent some sort of flashback or prequel book that we probably aren't going to find the answer to. :smallwink:

[SPoD]

Weren't you just arguing about the Theory of Narrative Causality in another thread? :smalltongue:

External baggage! :smalltongue:

Besides, Dorukan is not a protagonist. He's a background NPC. The rules don't work the same for him as for Elan.


It seems to me that if someone has a series of traps that guard Major Things of Power set to be disarmed in one way, it might be logical to expect that another one that guards a Major Thing of Power to be disarmed in a similar way. Absent of any other clues, that is.

Is it proof? No, as you say. But I think it is a fairly reasonable idea.

It absolutely is reasonable. But it is also not proven to be true, and we can't judge Dorukan's character based on it being true.

[PsychedelicBard]

Indeed. The coordinates in the desert were given to Soon and probably Dorukan and Lirian. Girard probably thought that Dorukan and Lirian wouldn't break their promises, and counted on Soon to do so. (Not very bright of him, but anyway.) The 10% was likely referencing someone who got the coordinates from Soon/Shojo/Shojo's father. Someone EVIL. Giving the FALSE coordinates to other people actually seems smarter then ever.(He probably trusted Serini to keep it quiet).

Yes, those are all assumptions. Yes, I have no proof to back it up. But no one here has evidence that 10% means "a random person who says the codeword" either.

[Keejus]

That's pretty easily handled by casting an Arcane Mark on everyone with a legitimate reason to be so close to the gate and then creating the rune so that it ignored people with that Arcane Mark. Though note that even Celia didn't know about the Gate, so maybe that was just handled with, "Don't go into my study, ever."

That's simpler than just enchanting it to kill anyone who'd use it for evil?

[TheSummoner]

Actually... 10% kinda does mean a random person who says the code word...

Its just that most of us realize that it's incredibly unlikely that anyone WOULD say those words at that spot unless they were specifically looking for the gte and got those coordinates from Soon (or someone who he gave them to).