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Lord_Gareth
2011-02-16, 12:30 AM
"Sheathe your weapons, travelers. I only want to have a polite conversation. Now, let us speak about order."
Kylira of Ashes, servant of Asmodeus

At certain points in many of my campaigns, my parties often encounter servants to the main villain, or even the main villain herself, that are charismatic, charming, focused, intelligent, and driven. Being all of these things, they often try to converse with the party, usually under rules of hospitality, or with some manner of threat ("Now now now, no need to blow things out of proportion." <-The Joker, The Dark Knight) to ensure that they are able to speak their peace. They talk about their cause, why they have done the evils that they have done and often why they plan on doing future evils. They allow the PCs to ask questions, answer them in a fashion that either seems, or actually is frank and straightforward, and then typically offer the players a place at their side, with the generous offer of letting those that refuse go free.

Sounds pretty straightforward, right? I thought so too. Except that several of my players's characters have been convinced of the villain's rightness in the past, and switched sides. Increasingly, I have been getting complaints from one or two of my players in games like this - never many, often not the majority of the group - that they feel I am conspiring with these players to encourage PvP combat and break up party cohesion. I like running complex villains that offer these kinds of deals (not being morons and all), but at the same time, I know it's my responsibility to ensure that everyone is having fun. Should I stop engaging in this kind of activity, or try to talk with the minority players about why I do it?

Also, feel free to share stories about tempting your own players - or being tempted - and what happened.

Magic Myrmidon
2011-02-16, 12:44 AM
That sounds awesome to me... especially the "letting go those who refuse" part. Makes the villain seem all the more reasonable and less insane.

The people that think you're conspiring with other players... that sounds paranoid. :p I get that they don't like PvP, but realistic character choices leading to it, ESPECIALLY at the end of a campaign, can make things awesome.

At least, I think so.

Saph
2011-02-16, 02:13 AM
Sounds pretty straightforward, right? I thought so too. Except that several of my players's characters have been convinced of the villain's rightness in the past, and switched sides. Increasingly, I have been getting complaints from one or two of my players in games like this - never many, often not the majority of the group - that they feel I am conspiring with these players to encourage PvP combat and break up party cohesion.

Well, yeah. If you're seriously trying to tempt PCs, then causing fights and breaking up party cohesion is the whole point.

Setting the party against each other can be lots of fun and often results in very memorable sessions, but for obvious reasons tends to mess up party unity big-time. On the occasions I've done it, it's led to some excellent games, but usually one or two of the players come off worse in the exchange and end up unhappy about it.

Games with party infighting tend to be more fun in the short term (since there's more drama) but have more trouble staying together in the long term (since the natural consequences are for the party to split up). So I'd say it's a good idea for one-offs and games that are going to end soon, but a bad idea for campaigns that you want to last.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-02-16, 02:25 AM
Which characters are switching sides to serve Asmodeus? That's not really a sound career move. Though one interpretation of old 'Asy suggests acting against him is merely setting yourself up to serve his ends in a different manner, your personal fate is often different.

The greater point to be made is, these offers are only innocuous if you know either everyone's going to switch, or no one is. Otherwise, though you may not be conspiring to do anything, you are creating ample opportunity for a PvP mindset. There are a few ways to improve your chances of party unity:

(1) Have characters who aren't idiots and know that the fate of the BBEG's underlings isn't great for one reason or another. The BBEG could have gotten to his seat of power by lying, manipulating, and backstabbing, and everyone knows he'll do that to his underlings if necessary. He could be a ruthless S.O.B. who punishes the slightest failure with death. He could be the lord of one of the lower planes, where no mortal with half a brain wants to end up. This (hopefully) doesn't constrain the characters too much, but it does limit your BBEGs.

(2) Have characters who are good. Not evil, not neutral. Good. Then have a clearly evil BBEG who, good reasons or not, does things no good character can support. On the plus side, you can fit a lot more BBEGs into this setup, and the offer might actually have some expected benefit for the BBEG. The down side is that it restricts character choice.

(3) The BBEG is actually the good side. By having everyone switch, they all stay on the same side. But this is my least favorite solution, because (a) it's risky, (b) it's a bit cliche, and (c) you have to handle the servant speech carefully without eliminating the twist altogether.

(4) Make sure the party is deeply connected with each other before you start tempting them. This doesn't constrain the BBEG at all, and though the characters are somewhat constrained, having deep inter-party connections fosters more interesting RP in my experience. It's still risky, because some characters might even separate from dear friend and family for their new cause, but the split is that much more drama-licious, and outright PvP is less likely to occur.

NichG
2011-02-16, 02:48 AM
Even if there's a risk of PvP, I like these things. Especially if its not just an obvious 'here's power, just discard your morality' kind of ploy but something that is actually reasonable and hard to argue against like 'You don't know it, but everything we've been doing has been to save the world against a threat you're unaware of' or 'You're being manipulated, listen to me; you think you're working for the good guys, but you're being set up'.

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-16, 10:27 AM
So you know guys know, I'll give the complete text of Kylira's speech, though it should be pointed out that, on the whole, Asmodeus treats his mortal cultists better than, say, anyone else.

There is no Order without Punishment
The party bursts into the dining room of a half-ruined castle fortress, seeking the dragon they believe dwells within - a dragon that has been terrorizing the local towns and villages, as well as kidnapping any mortal it can lay its claws on. Instead, they see a feast laid out - not lavish, but expensive, with invisible servants continuing to straighten the table and pour wine. Sitting at the head of the table, dressed practically in leather breeches and a chain shirt, is their old foe, Kylira of Ash - a tiefling assassin that they have clashed with on several occasions. As they go to charge, she holds up a hand and speaks.

"Sheathe your weapons, travelers. I only want to have a polite conversation. Now, let us speak about Order."

She gestures to the seats, and the party's paladin goes to attack her anyway, upon which she politely says, unconcerned, "I am an unarmed woman sitting peaceably down to my meal. I am glad to see that you are honorable enough to strike me down."

The paladin hesitates, agonizes over the decision, and ultimately sits, seething at this use of his Code against him. Reluctantly, the other party members sit, knowing the paladin is now obligated to defend Kylira's hospitality. The mage checks the food for poison and finds none, and the party thus begins to eat reluctantly.

"Now," Kylira begins pleasantly, "would you all agree that there can be no Order without punishment? This is the most basic tenant of laws across the multiverse - there is a code, and to break this code invokes a punishment. Even your friend here," she says as she gestures to the Paladin, "understands the concept, for he is obligated to seek out and punish those who harm the innocent. Now, who do you think does this punishing. The forces of Celestia? Too dirty for them. They feel conflicted and wrong unless fighting the vilest of fiends and undead. Mechanus? No one trusts them. The term 'proportionate response' is not within their vocabulary. Baator? Ah, now there we run into something interesting."

Kylira pauses to sip her wine and take a few spoonfuls of soup before continuing.

"As you may well know, my lord Asmodeus was once an angel of Celestia - was, in fact, their greatest general. What you do now know is that he is still in their employ - that he, in fact, rules Hell by virtue of Celestian authority and, if need be, can maintain his throne by virtue of Celestian might. In the wars of Creation, when the forces of Celestia balked before the evils of the Abyss and could not fight, Asmodeus fought. When they let innocents suffer under the willing rulership of demons, Asmodeus overthrew them. He tread where even angels feared to go, and so they in turn grew to fear him. They told him that he was not one of them, and he replied that, as he had broken none of their laws, he could not be punished. The wisest of Celestia met, and here they had their greatest stroke of genius - exile the dissenter and his armies to a forward outpost where they could resist the Abyss directly, thus ridding themselves of the troublemaker and ensuring that the demons could be contained on two fronts. They presented this pact to Asmodeus, who accepted."

"If only he had known their treachery. They hurled him deep into Baator, where his fiery impact gouged out huge craters in the Pit, and laughed as they made him King of an empty Hell, with only his armies to attend upon him."

Kylira paused to let the group absorb her words while the party's priest, devoted to Boccob the Uncaring, muttered in a shuddering whisper that his magic detected no lies from her.

"And here is the part you should know - my Lord still chose to serve them, and he serves them still, because he is honorable and loyal, and knows his place. Whenever Celestia is faced with a problem it will not solve, it calls upon Asmodeus to sully his hands. Whenever Celestia faces a foe it cannot comprehend, my master comes forth as its sword and shield. They cower behind him and call themselves righteous, and he serves them without thought for reward, for he knows that the forces of Baator are the only beings courageous enough to do what must be done to preserve Creation in all of its glory and splendor. When angels stay their hands, weeping impotent tears, we step forward to end any threats to existence that we may find. Tell me, is this who you want to serve - cowards that hide behind veiled excuses and pretend that they have no responsibility? I think not. You have been courageous, and valorous, and you have displayed an admirable concern for the lives of the innocent. I tell you now that I am not your enemy. No, I have been helping you for some time - tarnishing myself so that you might enjoy the privilege of remaining pure. But now I have need of you, and so I ask this - what is that privilege really worth? People are suffering. You could help."

Kylira pulls from her pocket a small scroll and sets it on the table.

"This is a contract of service, passed down by one of my master's more trusted servants. I shall leave you to finish your meal now, but think about what I have said. If you sign the contract, you will be teleported to my side. If you do not, you are free to leave, though you should be made aware that the dragon you seek dwells in a cave eight miles north of here. Think on it awhile. I bid you farewell."

The party eats and drinks in uncomfortable silence, each pondering her word's and the cleric's assertation that she was telling the truth. Then, slowly, the paladin reaches for the scroll, and signs.

Kuma Kode
2011-02-16, 10:49 AM
There is no Order without Punishment
The party bursts into the dining room of a half-ruined castle fortress, seeking the dragon they believe dwells within - a dragon that has been terrorizing the local towns and villages, as well as kidnapping any mortal it can lay its claws on. Instead, they see a feast laid out - not lavish, but expensive, with invisible servants continuing to straighten the table and pour wine. Sitting at the head of the table, dressed practically in leather breeches and a chain shirt, is their old foe, Kylira of Ash - a tiefling assassin that they have clashed with on several occasions. As they go to charge, she holds up a hand and speaks.

"Sheathe your weapons, travelers. I only want to have a polite conversation. Now, let us speak about Order."

She gestures to the seats, and the party's paladin goes to attack her anyway, upon which she politely says, unconcerned, "I am an unarmed woman sitting peaceably down to my meal. I am glad to see that you are honorable enough to strike me down."

The paladin hesitates, agonizes over the decision, and ultimately sits, seething at this use of his Code against him. Reluctantly, the other party members sit, knowing the paladin is now obligated to defend Kylira's hospitality. The mage checks the food for poison and finds none, and the party thus begins to eat reluctantly.

"Now," Kylira begins pleasantly, "would you all agree that there can be no Order without punishment? This is the most basic tenant of laws across the multiverse - there is a code, and to break this code invokes a punishment. Even your friend here," she says as she gestures to the Paladin, "understands the concept, for he is obligated to seek out and punish those who harm the innocent. Now, who do you think does this punishing. The forces of Celestia? Too dirty for them. They feel conflicted and wrong unless fighting the vilest of fiends and undead. Mechanus? No one trusts them. The term 'proportionate response' is not within their vocabulary. Baator? Ah, now there we run into something interesting."

Kylira pauses to sip her wine and take a few spoonfuls of soup before continuing.

"As you may well know, my lord Asmodeus was once an angel of Celestia - was, in fact, their greatest general. What you do now know is that he is still in their employ - that he, in fact, rules Hell by virtue of Celestian authority and, if need be, can maintain his throne by virtue of Celestian might. In the wars of Creation, when the forces of Celestia balked before the evils of the Abyss and could not fight, Asmodeus fought. When they let innocents suffer under the willing rulership of demons, Asmodeus overthrew them. He tread where even angels feared to go, and so they in turn grew to fear him. They told him that he was not one of them, and he replied that, as he had broken none of their laws, he could not be punished. The wisest of Celestia met, and here they had their greatest stroke of genius - exile the dissenter and his armies to a forward outpost where they could resist the Abyss directly, thus ridding themselves of the troublemaker and ensuring that the demons could be contained on two fronts. They presented this pact to Asmodeus, who accepted."

"If only he had known their treachery. They hurled him deep into Baator, where his fiery impact gouged out huge craters in the Pit, and laughed as they made him King of an empty Hell, with only his armies to attend upon him."

Kylira paused to let the group absorb her words while the party's priest, devoted to Boccob the Uncaring, muttered in a shuddering whisper that his magic detected no lies from her.

"And here is the part you should know - my Lord still chose to serve them, and he serves them still, because he is honorable and loyal, and knows his place. Whenever Celestia is faced with a problem it will not solve, it calls upon Asmodeus to sully his hands. Whenever Celestia faces a foe it cannot comprehend, my master comes forth as its sword and shield. They cower behind him and call themselves righteous, and he serves them without thought for reward, for he knows that the forces of Baator are the only beings courageous enough to do what must be done to preserve Creation in all of its glory and splendor. When angels stay their hands, weeping impotent tears, we step forward to end any threats to existence that we may find. Tell me, is this who you want to serve - cowards that hide behind veiled excuses and pretend that they have no responsibility? I think not. You have been courageous, and valorous, and you have displayed an admirable concern for the lives of the innocent. I tell you now that I am not your enemy. No, I have been helping you for some time - tarnishing myself so that you might enjoy the privilege of remaining pure. But now I have need of you, and so I ask this - what is that privilege really worth? People are suffering. You could help."

Kylira pulls from her pocket a small scroll and sets it on the table.

"This is a contract of service, passed down by one of my master's more trusted servants. I shall leave you to finish your meal now, but think about what I have said. If you sign the contract, you will be teleported to my side. If you do not, you are free to leave, though you should be made aware that the dragon you seek dwells in a cave eight miles north of here. Think on it awhile. I bid you farewell."

The party eats and drinks in uncomfortable silence, each pondering her word's and the cleric's assertation that she was telling the truth. Then, slowly, the paladin reaches for the scroll, and signs. That's a pretty great speech, and I can definitely see why it caused some problems. It does sound highly reasonable, when put that way. The fact that the cleric detected no lies was both the problem and the solution. If the party read that as "what she says is true," then there is really no reason NOT to accept the deal. However, detecting lies does just that.... detects lies. If the tiefling believed what she said was true, it wouldn't register, even if what she said was an utter falsehood. There is still very much the possibility that Asmodeus simply crafted some sugary backstory to paint himself as the good guy.

Considering he's probably the smoothest creature with the evil subtype, that's not a big stretch of the imagination.

JeminiZero
2011-02-16, 11:22 AM
However, detecting lies does just that.... detects lies. If the tiefling believed what she said was true, it wouldn't register, even if what she said was an utter falsehood.

And thats not including the various magical methods (e.g. Glibness) of fooling magical lie detection.

Saph
2011-02-16, 11:58 AM
So you know guys know, I'll give the complete text of Kylira's speech, though it should be pointed out that, on the whole, Asmodeus treats his mortal cultists better than, say, anyone else

Well, this is the problem, really. You're a personal fan of Asmodeus and like to paint devils and LE outsiders in as good a light as possible (and if I can figure that out from reading your posts, it's a safe bet that your players can do the same). So it's quite possible that your players might be getting the impression that you, as the DM, want them to sympathise with and sign up for the Nine Hells side.

The important question here is to ask what are you trying to do? You're the DM - the direction the campaign goes in is mostly your responsibility. The possible options are:

a) Party accepts and starts working for the (literal) devil
b) Party rejects offer
c) Some accept, some reject, which will probably lead to infighting between party members

Which of those options are you happy with? Once we know what your goals are, we can give you some concrete advice.

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-16, 02:31 PM
Honestly, in terms of the campaign story, I'm pretty cool with any of the options, as they all have interesting conclusions and consequences. My games have a slight sandbox quality to them in that I'm more comfortable with the players derailing the story then I am with them compromising their roleplaying for the sake of my pre-set path. Incidentally, the Nine Hells are only portrayed as sympathetic insofar as they're better to work for than, say, the Abyss, or Pandemonium. My PC's experiences with Celestia, Arborea, Arcadia, et all have been uniformly positive, with the sole exception of the one time that it was a succubus posing as a solar (oh that encounter was fun times).

GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-02-16, 02:46 PM
So you know guys know, I'll give the complete text of Kylira's speech, though it should be pointed out that, on the whole, Asmodeus treats his mortal cultists better than, say, anyone else.They still end up in the lower planes when they kick the bucket. This is clear and universally true, and known to anyone with some ranks in the relevant knowledge skill. That's my point. You only serve the lower planes if you have a solid plan on becoming immortal and avoiding that second part.

And the Paladin signed? What in the nine hells? He should be the most suspicious of the evil representatives' words.

nedz
2011-02-16, 02:57 PM
A very good encounter IMHO.

Moral Dilemmas can be over done, but they are an excellent change from the usual. I don't think any of my players would fall for this particular one, but never the less you made for some interesting roleplay.:smallsmile:

The Paladin fell I take it :smallbiggrin:

Did it lead to PvP ?
Is it the end of the campaign ?
Did they just go and deal with the dragon anyway ?

You gave the players the choice and now they take the consequences.

Waker
2011-02-16, 03:03 PM
I'm not the type of DM who likes to make Paladins fall, I think it's just a childish move to force a player into a questionable situation. This one though is a bit much, signing on with the forces of Hell should make the Paladin lose his powers, at least temporarily. That should be something of a warning sign to the party.
Granted they could decide to rebel against Celestia anyways, but whatever.

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-16, 03:54 PM
The paladin would eventually fall; his actions in the service to his new patron, while aimed at what he believed to be a greater good (they were) were still not excusable re: his former code. He eventually became an LE blackguard (went Necropolitian after a year in-game, in order to shore up his weak Will saves).

This was not the end of the campaign, and indeed the campaign remains ongoing. Two of the party members (the cleric and the bard) refused Kylira's offer, and eventually went on to slay the dragon with some rather creative use of buffs and the shout spell. The other four party members (paladin included) have joined Kylira in an attempt to create a super-weapon powered by humanoid despair. So far they believe Kylira's assurances that the weapon is designed to destroy a potent Elder Evil that has been prophesied to awaken, but doubts are beginning to creep into some of the other party members, and they don't like the far-off look in the former paladin's eyes....

nedz
2011-02-16, 06:35 PM
I'm not the type of DM who likes to make Paladins fall, I think it's just a childish move to force a player into a questionable situation. This one though is a bit much, signing on with the forces of Hell should make the Paladin lose his powers, at least temporarily. That should be something of a warning sign to the party.
Granted they could decide to rebel against Celestia anyways, but whatever.

I've never made a paladin fall, but then I've never had one sign up for Asmodeus's Legions either. The player wasn't forced, they were given a moral dilema and they flunked it. Paladins are moral characters, this is a clear and immediate fall IMHO. The PC choose this outcome.

Saph
2011-02-16, 07:40 PM
Honestly, in terms of the campaign story, I'm pretty cool with any of the options, as they all have interesting conclusions and consequences. My games have a slight sandbox quality to them in that I'm more comfortable with the players derailing the story then I am with them compromising their roleplaying for the sake of my pre-set path. Incidentally, the Nine Hells are only portrayed as sympathetic insofar as they're better to work for than, say, the Abyss, or Pandemonium. My PC's experiences with Celestia, Arborea, Arcadia, et all have been uniformly positive, with the sole exception of the one time that it was a succubus posing as a solar (oh that encounter was fun times).

Heh. Does sound fun.

My most spectacular tempting-a-PC incident took place in my Red Hand of Doom game a couple years back - full story here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94243&page=10). (It's spread out over four posts.)

It was probably one of the most emotional sessions we've ever had, for good or ill. Two of the players went home VERY unhappy, but the group still tells and retells the story two years later - it's the kind of thing that's much funnier after a few years have passed. :P

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-16, 07:48 PM
I've never made a paladin fall, but then I've never had one sign up for Asmodeus's Legions either. The player wasn't forced, they were given a moral dilema and they flunked it. Paladins are moral characters, this is a clear and immediate fall IMHO. The PC choose this outcome.

I do wonder - if Kylira isn't lying - if said superweapon will obliterate an Elder Evil and save the world - then was it the wrong thing to do, really? Or did the paladin just fall short of his initial patron's expectations?

erikun
2011-02-16, 08:32 PM
I do wonder - if Kylira isn't lying - if said superweapon will obliterate an Elder Evil and save the world - then was it the wrong thing to do, really? Or did the paladin just fall short of his initial patron's expectations?
Well, assuming they aren't doing something evil (or allowing Kylira to do something evil) they aren't in the wrong. The Paladin still falls due to associating with evil, but they aren't wrong with actively working towards killing an Elder Evil.

If they are running around doing something wrong - such as kidnapping people so that Kylira can torture them to power the weapon - then yes, they are doing the wrong thing.

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-16, 08:35 PM
Well, assuming they aren't doing something evil (or allowing Kylira to do something evil) they aren't in the wrong. The Paladin still falls due to associating with evil, but they aren't wrong with actively working towards killing an Elder Evil.

If they are running around doing something wrong - such as kidnapping people so that Kylira can torture them to power the weapon - then yes, they are doing the wrong thing.

Keeping in mind that in D&D, there can often be a line between "Good" and "Right", as well as "Evil" and "Wrong". Yes, it sounds stupid, but it exists. If they torture people to power the weapon and then save the world with it, was the torture not worth it? Yes, the action was evil, but it may not have been wrong.

Strawberries
2011-02-16, 09:16 PM
[CENTER][I]"I like running complex villains that offer these kinds of deals (not being morons and all), but at the same time, I know it's my responsibility to ensure that everyone is having fun. Should I stop engaging in this kind of activity, or try to talk with the minority players about why I do it?

I like your approach, but I think that' s something that needs to be addressed out of game. Both between you and the players and between the players themself. Personally, if I was one of your players, I'd have a little OOC discussion about this first (As in "Guys? Are we cool with this kind of character conflict and splitting the party?"). Roleplaying it's important, but the the first goal is to have fun all togheter. As a player, I'd choose another course of action (even if it means slightly bend my roleplaying and finding different motivations for my character actions) if I perceived that one of my choices could ruin the fun for everybody.

As to the specific situation and the paladin accepting the deal? Well, if that was how the paladin's player wanted to play his/her character, then it was a sound decision (from a purely in-game perspective, not counting the above OOC concerns). Not something a paladin should do, in my opinion, but a sound decision all the same - after all, you should play your character's perasonality, not their class or alignment: both class and alignment can change during a game, personality is what makes the character.

My paladin character, for instance, would have looked her in the eyes and answered something like "Sister, that's a nice speech, and I'll even believe you think it's true. Hells, it can even be true, as far as I know, but that's a huge load of bull all the same. 'Cause sure, you're speaking of order, and punishment, but you are forgetting mercy. There can be no good without mercy. Let me give you a hint. Good? Is way more important than order. Thanks for the dinner, and say to your master I hope to meet him soon."


If they torture people to power the weapon and then save the world with it, was the torture not worth it? Yes, the action was evil, but it may not have been wrong.

Hmmm.. That'swhere we disagree. But that's a matter of personal (and character's) perception.

Dreadn4ught
2011-02-16, 09:27 PM
PCs begin huge battle.

What do you do? INSTANT DIVINE INTERVENTION.

Have some divine messenger appear to them and help them sort out their differences! I'm sure it will all work out!:smallbiggrin:

Of course, the more likely possibility is that your players will get even more annoyed.

Oh well, it was worth a shot.

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-16, 09:29 PM
My paladin character, for instance, would have looked her in the eyes and answered something like "Sister, that's a nice speech, and I'll even believe you think it's true. Hells, it can even be true, as far as I know, but that's a huge load of bull all the same. 'Cause sure, you're speaking of order, and punishment, but you are forgetting mercy. There can be no good without mercy. Let me give you a hint. Good? Is way more important than order. Thanks for the dinner, and say to your master I hope to meet him soon

Your paladin has a holy symbol made of raw adamantine, ma'am :p

Incidentally, something like this did come up, just after the paladin joined her and just before he fell, when he asked about how Baator could justify its merciless behavior. At which point Kylira said this;

"Justice and mercy are often strangers to each other. You have chosen the former. The latter is an indulgence that neither of us can afford if we are to do what must be done."

After that, he asked about becoming a Blackguard and more or less Fell willingly.

Swordguy
2011-02-16, 09:54 PM
Your paladin has a holy symbol made of raw adamantine, ma'am :p

Incidentally, something like this did come up, just after the paladin joined her and just before he fell, when he asked about how Baator could justify its merciless behavior. At which point Kylira said this;

"Justice and mercy are often strangers to each other. You have chosen the former. The latter is an indulgence that neither of us can afford if we are to do what must be done."

After that, he asked about becoming a Blackguard and more or less Fell willingly.

You are are Good DM.

The best horrible circumstances are the ones the PCs walk into, willingly, with their eyes open, and still think it was the right thing to do. That's some dammed good storycrafting right there. I Approve.

.........

As a side note, I think you'd make an absolutely terrifying/awesome Dark Heresy GM (when playing an Imperial Inquisitor).

Strawberries
2011-02-16, 09:56 PM
Your paladin has a holy symbol made of raw adamantine, ma'am :p

Naah, he is just a bit more snarky and slightly less sane than most normal people :smalltongue:. And he is having his troubles with the code, too. (He is a character I'm playing here on the forum, btw, in Ajadea's campaign).



Incidentally, something like this did come up, just after the paladin joined her and just before he fell, when he asked about how Baator could justify its merciless behavior

Wait, he expected BAATOR to show mercy? :smallconfused: If that was one of his concern, why did he accept the deal in the first place? I doubt Asmodeus is going to win a prize for Mr Compassionate anytime soon, and I'd expect a paladin to know that in advance. Were I in your shoes, I would have made him fall before that, when he accepted the deal (and were I in your player's shoes, I wouldn't have complained about it.)


"Justice and mercy are often strangers to each other. You have chosen the former. The latter is an indulgence that neither of us can afford if we are to do what must be done."


And that's a load of bull even bigger than the first one, if you ask me (or my character :smallwink:). But that brings us back at character's perception and personalities: how to address this particular argument is something strictly tied to what a character feels as a priority.

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-16, 10:08 PM
Wait, he expected BAATOR to show mercy? :smallconfused: If that was one of his concern, why did he accept the deal in the first place? I doubt Asmodeus is going to win a prize for Mr Compassionate anytime soon, and I'd expect a paladin to know that in advance. Were I in your shoes, I would have made him fall before that, when he accepted the deal (and were I in your player's shoes, I wouldn't have complained about it.)

Oh no. He was trying to determine how Kylira could dare to take the moral high ground given that Baator is infamously merciless. Her statement is quite correct, incidentally - justice demands punishment, while mercy is, by definition, the abdication of punishment. Absolute justice precludes absolute mercy, and vice versa. Hence the phrase, "Temper my justice with mercy."

Waker
2011-02-16, 10:11 PM
"Justice and mercy are often strangers to each other. You have chosen the former. The latter is an indulgence that neither of us can afford if we are to do what must be done."
Sounds like Ra's al Ghul in Batman Begins.
But excellent storytelling. I would probably have fun in a game with you as a DM.

Ajadea
2011-02-16, 10:23 PM
Oh no. He was trying to determine how Kylira could dare to take the moral high ground given that Baator is infamously merciless. Her statement is quite correct, incidentally - justice demands punishment, while mercy is, by definition, the abdication of punishment. Absolute justice precludes absolute mercy, and vice versa. Hence the phrase, "Temper my justice with mercy."

Sounds very Miko-ish. But it is true. The thing is, a paladin is supposed to balance justice and mercy. To me, a real paladin should know that absolute justice and absolute mercy are incompatible. But that shouldn't keep them from trying to reach that impossible ideal. And when in doubt? Well, that's the paladin's problem, isn't it. The fact that the paladin you're talking about chose absolute justice over mercy means that that paladin more or less willingly fell like a rock.

Strawberries
2011-02-16, 10:29 PM
Oh no. He was trying to determine how Kylira could dare to take the moral high ground given that Baator is infamously merciless.

Aaah, ok then. Still, I would expect he would have done this before signing the contract with the evil merciless guys. Really, what's the point in asking this after? (By the way, I could see another party member that didn't sign using this moment to ask "Now you're having second thoughts, you moron?" :smallwink:)


Her statement is quite correct, incidentally - justice demands punishment, while mercy is, by definition, the abdication of punishment. Absolute justice precludes absolute mercy, and vice versa. Hence the phrase, "Temper my justice with mercy."

Hence why i think the concept of absolute justice is really pretty far from what a paladin should uphold (and why I said I would have expected to fall as soon as I made this kind of choice by signing up with Baator.)

PairO'Dice Lost
2011-02-17, 02:38 AM
I've done plenty of tempting in my campaigns; it's not exactly a staple of my villains, but the vast majority of my BBEGs are LE scheming controlling types. I've had the party meeting with one of the BBEG's henchmen over tea to discuss how he hates killing heroes, he really does, but the PCs have gotten in his master's way and while he doesn't hold anything against them personally he really wishes they would either join him or go away because it takes forever to get blood out of his cloak. I've had an intelligent staff who secretly served Dispater ("Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a staff of wealth and taste..." :smallamused:) convince a goody-goody CG PC to take a swan dive off the moral high ground. I've had a BBEG offer to switch sides for a lab space, enough corpses for necromantic experimentation, and cash for spell components; the PCs had fun discussing that offer.

Tempting PCs to the Dark SideTM can be a good plot twist (or, if it's seen coming, just a good part of the plot) and is fairly traditional. I wouldn't stop doing it; rather, I'd just explain to the minority players that it's not you-the-DM telling them-the-players that the bad guys are right, it's you-the-bad-guys telling them-the-PCs that they're right, and the players should feel free to decide as they wish--and OOC considerations about splitting the party are just as valid as IC considerations about consorting with evil.