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HMS Invincible
2011-02-16, 01:37 AM
What are some simple paths that I can advise a bard to take? She's taken 5 levels in Bard already, and I'm running out of good magic items to suggest to her. Any idea that makes sense and is easy to use helps, I don't know bards that well.

Jarian
2011-02-16, 01:41 AM
Feats to consider:
Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn)
Song of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting)
Words of Creation (Book of Exalted Deeds)
Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic)

Items to consider:
Masterwork Mandolin (Complete Adventurer)
Badge of Valor (Magic Item Compendium)
Crystal Echoblade (Magic Item Compendium)

Spells to consider:
Inspirational Boost (Spell Compendium)

Waker
2011-02-16, 01:58 AM
What does your bard want to focus on? Improving the number and power of spells available? Getting new and more effective uses out of her Bardic music? Does she want to wade into the melee?

HunterOfJello
2011-02-16, 02:12 AM
A Wand Sheath or two from Dungeonscape with these wands in it:

Prestidigitation
Detect Magic
Summon Instrument
Inspirational Boost
Swift Invisibility
Shock and Awe
Sticky Fingers
Summon Monster I
Cure Light Wounds


And those are just 1st and 0 level spells from the Bard spell list. Bards can do amazing things with wands.

HMS Invincible
2011-02-16, 02:23 AM
What does your bard want to focus on? Improving the number and power of spells available? Getting new and more effective uses out of her Bardic music? Does she want to wade into the melee?

Since it's not me, I want to give her a few choices to choose from because I don't want to be that one guy who tells people exactly what they have to do.
In addition, No ebberon, I should have mentioned that for our 3.5 campaign. How do you get a bard to be decent at physical combat?

Jarian
2011-02-16, 02:24 AM
No ebberon, I should have mentioned that for our 3.5 campaign. How do you get a bard to be decent at physical combat?

See my post minus Song of the Heart, basically. You can go further, but it really depends on the optimization of the party.

On the plus side, Dragonfire Inspiration makes everyone better. Go bards.

Waker
2011-02-16, 02:29 AM
The feats mentioned are good starts. Some prestige classes to consider taking are: Arcane Duelist (wizards website), War Chanter (Cwar), Abjurant Champion (CMag) and Swiftblade (wizards website).

HunterOfJello
2011-02-16, 02:36 AM
Melodic Casting is also a great feat that allows you to cast, use magical items and do whatever while singing at the same time. It's also required for a great Bard PrC called the Lyric Thaumaturge which can be found in Complete Mage. The PrC has full spell progression and continues to give bardic music uses per day. You can enter it at level 7. The class gives up some of the higher level bardic music abilities in return for more spells known and more spells cast per day. The bonus spells known come from the Wiz/Sorc list too, so you can grab some cool spells from that list to add into your repertoire.

At higher levels you should aim for the Sublime Chord PrC which allows bards to learn spells up to 9th level.

~

For more info, check out The Bard's Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284.0).

Vangor
2011-02-16, 02:40 AM
Try Song of the White Raven with Warblade. Gives melee competency, bard songs, additional group combat help, and early magic which is amusing and useful for the bard already.

aboyd
2011-02-16, 04:49 AM
I suggest looking into Lyric Spell from Complete Adventurer. It allows you to trade bardic music for extra spells, on the fly. It's the equivalent of getting 2 or 3 of those "extra spell" feats, and it's better because you can pick what you want to cast at a moment's notice, from any spells you know, whether you have them ready or not.

Saint GoH
2011-02-16, 05:16 AM
Dragonfire Inspiration. Nough said.
-Song of Heart for +1
-Badge of Valor for +1
-Inspirational Boost for +1
-Base Inspire Courage +1
-Words of Creation for x2
-Dragonfire Inspiration for d6 per +1
= 8d6 Fire damage. To all allies. On all attacks. /head asplode

Warchanter (Cwar) allows you to have 2 songs playing at once (DFI and Inspire Courage? Awesome)

Seeker of the Song (can't remember book :smallfrown: ) also allows you to have ANOTHER song playing. Weeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Snowflake Wardance allows you to add Cha to attacks. Slippers of Battledancing or Gauntlet of Heartfelt Blows for Cha to damage.

Paladin for Cha to Saves (Go Paladin of Freedom)

Crusader levels and Song of the White Raven makes you more frontliney with bigger hit die, offensive abilities and better AB.

Lastly, Lingering Song lets your Bard songs last 10 rounds after you stop playing instead of 5.

Noneoyabizzness
2011-02-16, 10:40 AM
if you want to have a few spells based on sonic in the bards reptoire while having a somewhat melee build... clap of thunder from complete mage. touch attack doing d6* the highest level sonic spell you can cast.

shame sculpt sound somehow isnt sonic based. but still shouts, shatter and song of discord are good useful bard spells with that discriptor

Amnestic
2011-02-16, 02:00 PM
There's a vest from DMG2 too...hang on...ah, Vest of Legends, that's it. Pg. 272-273. +5 competence on Diplomacy and Perform, and gives an extra 5 levels to your Inspire Courage, Heroics, Greatness and Fascinate abilities. Quite handy if you opt for a PrC which doesn't give more levels to your Bardic Music (like Sublime Chord).

The Cat Goddess
2011-02-16, 02:10 PM
Given that Bards get the Whip proficiency for free, a trip-build isn't uncommon.

A Whip-Dagger (Arms & Equipment Manual) gives real damage and doesn't cost an extra proficiency.

riddles
2011-02-18, 09:23 AM
Bards didn't get a lot of love in core but splatbooks made them much more appealing.

Simple Steps to Bard Optimisation - Inspire Courage
1. Song of the Heart as your level 3 feat. I appreciate that you've said no Eberron stuff here, but song of the heart isn't setting specific iirc. +1 to IC
2. Inspirational Boost as your level 1 spell (with as many pearls of power as you can lay your grubby little hands on) +1 to IC
3. Badge of Valor. Nifty little item from MIC. 3/day add +1 to IC (or some other stuff that you'll never use)

At level 3, your bard is rocking +4 to hit and damage. This is a minimal resource investment.
You can add words of creation in there. However, there is some confusion as to whether it doubles your base IC or your IC after you add all your bonus. It does have some hefty roleplaying restrictions, so I usually avoid it as my bards tend to be a bit scurrilous.

Adding the vest of legends at level 3 (doubtful as it's quite expensive) adds another +1 because of the +5 bard level, but more importantly allows your bardette to multiclass.

The DFI debate
Then we have Dragonfire Inspiration. This feat converts your IC bonus to Xd6 fire damage. To qualify for this feat you need to be dragonblooded or draconic. To convert the fire damage to something that won't be resisted at the drop of a hat, you need draconic heritage. This is a significantly higher investment. However, for me what makes the decision between DFI and IC (unless you take warchanter) is twofold. The make up of your party, and how you want to fight yourself. If, like me, you like the Bardbarian/Bardadin style of fighting. Stick with IC and power attack. +4 IC gives you +12 damage at no cost when power attacking with a 2 hander. Important to note that the average roll for DFI here is 14. More consistant damage over variable.

Where DFI comes into its own is if you, or 1 or 2 of your party mates looks to go down the multiple attacks route. That is, TWF, rapid shot, thrown weapons etc. The returns on DFI for those characters far outweigh regular IC. It is important to note, though, that if you want to do this yourself, it's a pretty hefty feat investment.

Other Useful Stuff
If you want to sing AND fight or sing AND cast, you've got a problem with action economy.

Lingering song (feat) lets you sing then go swinging a weapon/cast a spell for 10 rounds. If you have DFI, you can have 2 songs running at once (though your bardic music uses are going to run out pretty sharpish). The harmonic weapon enhancement (i think MIC, +2 bonus) will do the same thing, but it will be a while before you are able to get this. the crystal echoblade (not sure where this is from. i'll assume MIC) adds half your bard level in sonic damage when you are singing. not bad.

If you want to go all caster like (especially if you are moving into the sublime chord class), then melodic casting may be for you. Replaces concentration checks with perform checks (more skills for elsewhere!) and lets you cast while singing. Though I'm against this unless you are going with sublime chord because you simply don't have the spells to do this all day.

Simple Steps to Bard Optimisation - Skills
Bards have all the social skills and spellcasting based of CHA. You ARE the face. In addition, you have lots of other skills that will let you be self-sufficient. So a high INT score benefits you greatly, especially as you should be giving yourself an excellent to hit bonus with IC. Look to skill tricks that give you unique abilities and pick up lots of extra languages (this is DM dependent as you need DM participation to get your moment to shine).

Knowledge Devotion
You have access to all the knowledge skills. The feat Knowledge devotion stacks with IC. The skill trick collector of stories can give you an impressive boost on this (though I've seen it argued that it won't count). This is, however, a big skill point investment as there are 5 knowledges you need to cover all bases. 1 point in each knowledge will give you a +1 or +2 to hit and damage dependent on your roll. Every little helps.

Bardic Knack
Bardic knack is an ACF for bardic knowledge. It allows you to use half your bard level in untrained skills. This allows you to dump some skills and focus on the important ones, while remaining a skillmonkey. Add in the feat Jack of All Trades and you are adding hald your bard level to all skills in which you have no ranks (including knowledge checks. see above)

Simple Steps to Bard Optimization - Spells
Now, with all of the advice that's gone before, your bard could be rocking some very hefty combat skills. Because of that, you want to spend your combats wailing on things. or hiding like a gnome while your mates do all the heavy lifting. you don't want to get your pantaloons dirty now, do you?

So what are your spells for? Well, bards have some awesome utility and buffing spells; Glibness, disguise self, expeditious retreat, ventriloquism, mirror image (goodbye the need for AC), silence, whispering wind, haste. These are all core spells. The spell compendium has a number of bard spells that have great out of and in combat utility. However, your spells known list and your spells/day are very low compared to other spellcasters. In general, you want one or two buffs (inspirational boost or haste. Don't go overboard here as you have IC as a class feature and spending 4 rounds buffing yourself while your group dies around you isn't fun. group buffs are best), one or two defensive spells (i make do with just mirror image) and the rest as out of combat utility - glibness et al. there's a lovely level 1 spell in the SPC that allows you to link 2 coins so you can hear whatever is happening over a distance. very good spy spell.

Alternatively...
if you don't want to be a combat type bard and want to focus on spellcasting, be a sorceror. no, seriously, you still need to be making the best use of your limited spell slots until you can get into sublime chord. that means general party buffs like haste and inspirational boost (i'm recommending those two a lot...wonder why?) are good and BC spells are also good. You have grease and slow on your list. Spend feats to bump your DCs.

Multiclassing and Prestige Classes

Multiclasses

Barbarian - 1 level dip gives rage, good HP, martial weapons and fast movement. More importantly, you can have Perform(foaming blooddance)
Paladin - 4 levels of paladin gives you a lot. Cha to saves and access to divine feats. divine might being one of the best. divine shield would be great if it weren't a standard action. Paladin of freedom variant negates the need for alignment shenanigans
Crusader - healing strikes. white raven awesome. only problem with the white raven song feat is that, with inspirational boost and badge of valor, you don't actually have a swift action to activate IC.
Warblade - more hitty. also white raven awesome. more counters.
Sorceror - interesting if you want to take 3 levels of bard and a vest of legends to get +5 IC and then a level 17 sorceror on top.

Prestige Classes

War Chanter - 2 songs in 1 round. doesn't advance many bardic class features though
Sublime Chord - lvl.9 spells
Blackguard - alternative to paladin
The other prestige classes for bard are quite...niche and i haven't had the experience with them to comment.


Bards. Rock. Hard.

Killer Angel
2011-02-18, 09:33 AM
Multiclasses
[spoiler]
Paladin - 4 levels of paladin gives you a lot. Cha to saves and access to divine feats. divine might being one of the best. divine shield would be great if it weren't a standard action. Paladin of freedom variant negates the need for alignment shenanigans[spoiler]


and for a classic paladin type, there's Devoted Performer.

riddles
2011-02-18, 09:39 AM
true that. I'm at work so putting in absolutely everything would have been...time consuming. and he wanted simple!

i've seen a paladin/monk/bard build with devoted performer, the paladin/monk crossbreed feat and (i think) a monk/bard crossbreed feat to get lvl 20 smite, bardic music and monk damage.

[EDIT] pinched this from another board:

Masterwork instrument info:
Drums: +1 to the bonus to damage w/ Inspire Courage, but -1 to the bonus vs charm and fear.

Fiddle: +1 to the bonus vs charm and fear w/ Inspire Courage. If you have 5 or more ranks in Perform (Dance) the bonus increases to +2.

(Flute gives +2 to countersong checks)

(Harp lets you target one additional creature with Fascinate and more importantly, with Inspire Greatness)

Horn: +1 to the bonus to damage and save vs fear w/ Inspire Courage, but the effect ends 1 round after the recipient can no longer hear the bard toot.

(Lute: +1 level to determining effectiveness of bardic music. Potentially useful if you're at a threshhold level. Don't give access to new abilities, just +1 er.. Performer Level for those that you already have.)

Mandolin: +1 to the attack roll bonus w/ Inspire Courage, but -1 to everything else (damage, save vs charm/fear).

(Pan Pipes give a +1 bonus to perform checks for Fascinate and +1 to the DC of Suggestion.)

I like the horn and drums. Drums might be an issue if you want to actually fight. the restriction on song length with the horn may be mitigated by lingering song.

LibraryOgre
2011-02-18, 12:17 PM
What are some simple paths that I can advise a bard to take? She's taken 5 levels in Bard already, and I'm running out of good magic items to suggest to her. Any idea that makes sense and is easy to use helps, I don't know bards that well.

Since she's already built, the options are a bit more limited, but even a Core bard can be pretty nasty... especially if you take the position, not that "I do everything" but "I make everyone more awesome at what they do." Note that I'm not highly conversant in most of the later supplements; I tend to look at making a solid mostly-core bard, and leave the optimization to people who enjoy it.

For weapons, a bard should, depending on their stats, really consider a owning (and using) whip. They're cheap, they're light, and you can use them to trip and disarm... if they resist and try to counter, just drop the whip. Tripping or disarming makes the fighters in your party more awesome, and keeps you out of direct combat.

If forced into melee, consider using Aid Another, especially if you've got a rogue you're working with. Flank + Aid another means your rogue friend gets a +4 to hit on all those juicy sneak attacks. You may not be doing damage, but every time the rogue hits by 4 or less (5 or less, if you've managed to start singing), that damage is yours.

Bard spells somewhat depend on Charisma. A bard doesn't NEED more than a 16 Charisma (to get 6th level spells at high levels), but it also tends to leave their save DCs somewhat anemic. The solution for that is to have spells that either don't require saves (i.e. buffs for your party) OR that still do useful things when a save is made. By keeping your Charisma to 16 (I actually suggest starting with a 15, then upping it to 16 at 4th level), you have more points to spread around the point buy. Since she's built, this is less of an option, unless you're willing to let her keep the character and just rebuild a little.

Good spell suggestions at low levels:
1st:
*Remove Fear: lots of fear effects in the game, and it's an easy, low-level debuff to throw at people
*Summon Monster 1: great for summoning a flanker to help someone out for a couple rounds... you can even summon behind enemy lines. Also useful for "spare targets"... any attack they're pouring into a celestial badger isn't going into a PC.
*Cure Light Wounds: While many scoff at combat healing, also consider it a "keep Dave from dying" spell AND a "longsword against undead".
*Charm person: The exception to the "Don't use saving throw spells" rules. Charm Person is NOT a combat spell... it can occasionally save your butt in combat, but it's main use is to make someone your friend. The best use for this spell is to make someone your friend, then continue to treat them like a friend. That friendly innkeeper stays friendly if you pay your tab promptly and don't ask him to go against the mafia. The friendly snitch still likes to be paid for information, but he'll be more forthcoming since he likes you.

2nd:
*Heroism: My love for Heroism is quite strong... the 3rd level Good Hope is a poor imitation. Heroism has LEGS, lasting 10 minutes per level... almost an hour at 5th level. While this makes it less than awesome as a combat spell (though it can be VERY useful as one, giving you that added bit to be effective in long battles), it makes it great as a dinner party spell. Got a fighter who is a bit dull and crass? Heroism gives him a +2 to his Diplomacy and Sense Motive skill checks... he's not Henry Kissinger, but neither is he Al Bundy. The +2 on saves helps with avoiding Charms and the like.
*Alter Self: There are volumes written on Alter Self. Consider synergizing it with your bardic knowledge. "What humanoid has the toughest hide/most deadly claws/fastest flying".
*Blur, Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Summon Swarm: All are general wizardy spells that have a number of uses. Glitterdust DOES allow a save vs. the blind effect, but since it also negates invisibility AND has a decent area of effect, it's one that gets a pass on the "don't use saves" rule of thumb.
*Silence, Darkess: These spells are battlefield control. Silence is a GREAT debuffer for enemy casters (even if they save, they have to move), and Darkness is a good way to restrict enemy back ranks and spellcasters. Consider that Darkness acts to interrupt line of sight, or to somewhat even the odds if forced into the dark against darkvision-bearing foes.
*Eagle's Splendor: I consider this spell to be a little bit of a trap. On the one hand, it makes the bard a MUCH more effective caster for a while... he doesn't get extra spells, but he does get better saves on the ones he's casting. However, it has such a short duration that it's not really worth it as a personal buff, and is mostly a "casting support" spell... Heroism can cover all your "talk with the king" needs just as well.

3rd:
*Dispel Magic: Based on caster level, not on saving throws. Thus, a useful debuffer for enemies or dedebuffer for allies.
*Glibness: +30 to bluff checks? Immunity to lie detecting magics?
*Haste, Displacement: Combat buffs.
*At this level, you've got some good detection spells. Scry is OK, but Clairvoyance/Clairaudience avoids a saving throw and lets you eavesdrop fairly well.

4th:
Lots of standard useful spells at this level. Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement, Shadow Conjuration. There's nothing that screams "Bards must have this", but they're good spells.

5th:
The big note here is Greater Heroism... they nerf the duration. For 3 additional spell levels, an additional +2, immunity to fear, and some temporary HP don't make up for that 90% drop of duration. Shadow Evocation and Shadow Walk are also nice to pick up.

term1nally s1ck
2011-02-18, 12:31 PM
Spells that are great can be found here, ignoring the main topic:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154326

Some other links:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284.0

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0

Aharon
2011-02-18, 12:45 PM
Improvisation is a nice spell found in the spell compendium. It gives you a pool of 2 "luck" points per caster level, which you can spend as you like to improve attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks by up to half CL. It's best in a wand so, bought from a bard with CL 20.

faceroll
2011-02-18, 04:15 PM
Improvisation is a nice spell found in the spell compendium. It gives you a pool of 2 "luck" points per caster level, which you can spend as you like to improve attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks by up to half CL. It's best in a wand so, bought from a bard with CL 20.

If you hate gold, I guess that'd be a pretty good idea.

term1nally s1ck
2011-02-18, 04:22 PM
I was gonna say, 40,000 gold for a wand seems excessive.

Doc Roc
2011-02-18, 04:27 PM
Honestly, for 40k, you can get a couple CL boosts of your own, which is probably a better expenditure.

To my glee, the bard handbook hasn't died yet. Here. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870498/The_Bards_Handbook)

I can't find the old lightsaber bard build though.

I guess another question is how optimal do you want?

Saint GoH
2011-02-18, 05:00 PM
Is it wrong to say every time Doc Roc posts in a thread I get a little antsy and start following the thread instantaneously?

term1nally s1ck
2011-02-18, 05:06 PM
Honestly, for 40k, you can get a couple CL boosts of your own, which is probably a better expenditure.

To my glee, the bard handbook hasn't died yet. Here. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870498/The_Bards_Handbook)

I can't find the old lightsaber bard build though.

I guess another question is how optimal do you want?

The Bard handbook was copied to BG and updated a few times since that one:

Here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284.0)

Doc Roc
2011-02-18, 05:08 PM
The Bard handbook was copied to BG and updated a few times since that one:

Here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284.0)

Oh TS, you are the best. When I get home, I'll re-construct the lightsaber bard, as a thank you.

term1nally s1ck
2011-02-18, 05:13 PM
I've not even heard of that build, and I love bards, so *Holds breath*

EDIT: This? (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872530/Gish_Lyric_Thaumaturge,_broken)

Aharon
2011-02-21, 02:44 AM
Pray tell, how do you derive a 40000 gp cost?

750*1*20=15000.
=>Amulet of Transference (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a)
=> 12000 gp + 600 xp.

I think that's manageable at mid levels. And if you buy a Schema of Metamagic Item (Persist) (4800 gp + 240 xp), it can act as a +10 luck bonus to initiative. Which is not shabby at all, I think - we all know how important it is to go first.

I'm open-minded, though. I always thought this effect had a nice cost-benefit-relationship. Was I wrong? If so, why?

term1nally s1ck
2011-02-21, 06:10 AM
Because I can't do basic math apparently. Eh, 15000 is still a lot of money for that sort of thing. As mentioned, at the levels where that becomes affordable for a consumable, you're only a few CL boosts away from casting it yourself.

Aharon
2011-02-21, 06:35 AM
Ok, thanks. I used it with lots of cost reduction on an artificer, and figured it would perform ok on a normal guy.

That teaches me to keep WBL in mind :smalltongue: