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Crasical
2011-02-16, 04:41 AM
3.5 DnD. Favor Dex, Str and Cha.
Five levels of the Thug variant of Fighter.

Take Apprentice (Entertainer) as your feat at 1st level. You'll want Perform (Weapon Drill) or (Juggling) throughout your career, along with ranks in Sleight of hand.

Take Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Weapon Focus (Club) as your fighter bonus and levelup feats.

Take 5 levels of Master Thrower. I favor Sneaky shot, Trip Shot, and Weak Spot as the thrown weapon tricks.

You're now level 10, with the ability to throw juggling clubs as touch attacks, trip enemies with them, and deny them their dex bonus to dodge. You're a ranged-fighting combat jester.

Now, start taking levels of Paladin of Freedom. I recommend taking the complete warrior version that lets you turn any weapon you touch into a good-aligned weapon over the spellcasting, but if you've got wis to spare, that's fine too.

Thug 5/Master Thrower 5/Paladin of Freedom 10.

If you're human or have flaws, you can take Brutal Throw and only have to focus on Str. and Charisma.

I love weird and amusing builds in 3.5. Any ideas on how to improve this one, or variants by taking another PRC or base class for the last 10 levels?

drakir_nosslin
2011-02-16, 04:44 AM
Perhaps a little bit of Bloodstorm blade if you can squeeze it in? They pretty much focus on throwing melee weapons.

Coidzor
2011-02-16, 05:59 AM
I believe there's a substitution level for Pallys that lets them apply Smite to ranged attacks. I think it involves Elves though. :smallyuk:

Pechvarry
2011-02-16, 10:17 AM
I believe Ranged Smite is also a feat in BoED.

I'd so no to bloodstorm blade, as it kinda defeats the purpose.

Though while I'm at it, I should probably make sure I understand the purpose:

You're using perform (weapon drill/juggling) to justify having more weapons "at the ready" than you have hands and thus don't need Quick Draw, right?

Also, paladin throwing build: grats on finding the first use for the CW spell-less variant I've ever seen.

Crasical
2011-02-16, 01:14 PM
The purpose of the build is weaponized juggling clubs and to be amusing. See: I like weird builds. Also to have a paladin clown.

I don't have or use the Book of Nine Swords, so this build has no bloodstorm-blade. *shrug!*

There is a whole 10/11 levels of this build I'm not married to, so there's absolutely room to add things. The 5th level of thug for example does absolutely nothing, so as long as you take a full-bab class in that slot, you still qualify for Master Thrower and can take 11 levels of whatever class it was, which is enough to get master weapon style and get full TWF, letting you juggle knives as well as clubs. Alternatively, you can get Greater Rage if you go barbarian.

drakir_nosslin
2011-02-16, 03:56 PM
I'd so no to bloodstorm blade, as it kinda defeats the purpose.
How on earth does bloodstorm blade destroy a build that is designed to throw melee weapons? It's designed to do exactly that :smallconfused:


I don't have or use the Book of Nine Swords, so this build has no bloodstorm-blade. *shrug!*

Ah, too bad. Oh well, ToB can't be used every time :smalltongue:

Crasical
2011-02-16, 04:26 PM
How on earth does bloodstorm blade destroy a build that is designed to throw melee weapons? It's designed to do exactly that :smallconfused:

Because it turns your thrown attacks into 'melee attacks, but at range' and lets you use things like power attack ect . with them. Which means they don't qualify for Master Thrower tricks anymore.

drakir_nosslin
2011-02-16, 04:32 PM
Because it turns your thrown attacks into 'melee attacks, but at range' and lets you use things like power attack ect . with them. Which means they don't qualify for Master Thrower tricks anymore.

Aha. I've never used the master thrower, so I didn't think of that :smallfrown:
On the other hand... Maneuvers :smallamused:

Aemoh87
2011-02-16, 04:34 PM
For some reason I thought this thread had something to do with the Insane Clown Posse. I am glad it didn't.

Crasical
2011-02-16, 04:35 PM
Aha. I've never used the master thrower, so I didn't think of that :smallfrown:
On the other hand... Maneuvers :smallamused:

Can you do better than ranged attacks that trip, count as touch attacks, and don't allow dexterity with maneuvers? :smalltongue:

drakir_nosslin
2011-02-16, 04:48 PM
Can you do better than ranged attacks that trip, count as touch attacks, and don't allow dexterity with maneuvers? :smalltongue:

Ha! I thought I could until I realized that Bloodstorm Blade only allows Iron Heart maneuvers to be used at ranged. I admit defeat :smalltongue:

The Rabbler
2011-02-16, 04:56 PM
The feat Throw Anything (which bloodstorm blade gives you) allows you to treat any melee weapon as if it were a ranged weapon. There's nothing that says master thrower's tricks don't still apply and I'm pretty sure they add to a bloodstorm blade quite nicely.

EDIT:


Because it turns your thrown attacks into 'melee attacks, but at range' and lets you use things like power attack ect . with them. Which means they don't qualify for Master Thrower tricks anymore.

It doesn't turn all ranged attacks into melee attacks, rather it gives you the option of doing so. You decide this at the beginning of your turn when you decide whether or not you want to use a swift action to get this ability.

Crasical
2011-02-16, 05:00 PM
Hrm. Problems I can see:

1. Thrown trip attacks are Dex only. If you're going str-only with Brutal Throw, you might have to pick another thrown weapon trick or convince your DM that since you're using STR to hit, you can use STR to trip.
2. Denying enemies their Dex bonus isn't all that great unless you grab sneak attack dice from somewhere.

Crasical
2011-02-16, 05:02 PM
The feat Throw Anything (which bloodstorm blade gives you) allows you to treat any melee weapon as if it were a ranged weapon. There's nothing that says master thrower's tricks don't still apply and I'm pretty sure they add to a bloodstorm blade quite nicely. It doesn't turn all ranged attacks into melee attacks, rather it gives you the option of doing so. You decide this at the beginning of your turn when you decide whether or not you want to use a swift action to get this ability.

Ah, teach me to talk about a book I don't own like an expert.

The Rabbler
2011-02-16, 05:07 PM
Hrm. Problems I can see:

1. Thrown trip attacks are Dex only. If you're going str-only with Brutal Throw, you might have to pick another thrown weapon trick or convince your DM that since you're using STR to hit, you can use STR to trip.
2. Denying enemies their Dex bonus isn't all that great unless you grab sneak attack dice from somewhere.

Or you could just treat your weapon as a melee weapon at range and trip with strength anyway.

As for your other point, I'm not really sure how that applies, as your build doesn't have much sneak attack either.

My point was that bloodstorm blade and master thrower do, in fact, work very well together and that having both doesn't limit the options of one. In fact, adding bloodstorm blade to a master thrower build only increases the options with the ability to initiate maneuvers from a distance or pretend that your melee weapon has 30' range.

EDIT:


Ah, teach me to talk about a book I don't own like an expert.

I wasn't making any accusations, just clearing up a misconception.

Crasical
2011-02-16, 05:10 PM
I was noting these as problems with my version of the build, not with a version that uses BSB.

drakir_nosslin
2011-02-16, 05:16 PM
The feat Throw Anything (which bloodstorm blade gives you) allows you to treat any melee weapon as if it were a ranged weapon. There's nothing that says master thrower's tricks don't still apply and I'm pretty sure they add to a bloodstorm blade quite nicely.
It doesn't turn all ranged attacks into melee attacks, rather it gives you the option of doing so. You decide this at the beginning of your turn when you decide whether or not you want to use a swift action to get this ability.

Whohoo! I knew ToB could be used for everything :smalltongue:
Go go power thrower!
And bloodstorm blade doesn't use brutal throw afaik, I think you maybe meant Thunderous Throw, which is the 'ranged melee attack' ability. But with a one level dip your ranged attacks are suddenly returning.

The Rabbler
2011-02-16, 05:16 PM
I was noting these as problems with my version of the build, not with a version that uses BSB.

Ah, my mistake.

For your build, you could dump str entirely and go for full sneak attack with some rogue levels and the Craven feat. I'd suggest at least 3 to get the Precise Strike (I think) ACF from dungeonscape, so your sneak attacks are never worthless. You could also go wolf totem barbarian (with whirling frenzy for the extra attack) to get both the improved trip feat and a +4 bonus to trip attacks that stacks with the feat itself. I'd have to read the wording, but you might also be able to have the knockdown feat apply to ranged attacks, so you could deal some sneak attack damage, trip them, then attack them again via Improved Trip.

I'll check to see if any of these feats don't work because of wording.

EDIT: thats what I get for not reading all the way through stuff; improved trip and knockdown require melee, it seems (though they'd still work with a BSB).

EDIT2: If you end up having a worthwhile int and you use finesse-able weapons, you could pick up three levels of swashbuckler and get int to damage. If you have good int and feel like being awesome, you could take some levels in factotum to get int to everything (including attacks and damage) and tons of skill points. Take able learner at level 1 and you can get all skills as class skills forever, so you can be the ultimate skillmonkey. As for more combat stuff, if you could find a way of reliably and consistently (very hard to do without spells) making the enemy flat-footed, you could use factotum to get you some Iaijutsu Focus (OA) damage on top of your sneak attack. Aside from that, I'm out of ideas.

nedz
2011-02-16, 05:38 PM
If you must have full BAB there's the Sneak Fighter from UA.
5 Levels will give you 3d6 sneak and 5 BAB.
It will cost you some feats though.

5 Levels of Scout might work since that would give you 2d6 skirmish, and the ability to take Improved Skirmish for 2d6 more. Do you have a way of moving and full attacking though ? Probably not I'd guess. This would cost you 2 BAB, but give you a feat back, some skill points and a few other toys.

Ranger is possible, full BAB, TWF and an animal companion to play fetch.
The Distracting attack varient from PH2 might work, but you're using other tricks to get that effect and gain no benefit yourself. I'm not conviced that this class works for you.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-02-16, 08:58 PM
Because it turns your thrown attacks into 'melee attacks, but at range' and lets you use things like power attack ect . with them. Which means they don't qualify for Master Thrower tricks anymore.

Ummm.... no.

It permits you to treat thrown attacks as though they were also melee attacks, which lets you power attack et all with them. That means they are still thrown attacks.

Furthermore, what this does that you may not be aware of is automatic returning on all your thrown weapons, which means you don't disarm yourself in the first round, even WITH all your thrown weapons you are juggling.

Crasical
2011-02-16, 09:31 PM
Ummm.... no.

It permits you to treat thrown attacks as though they were also melee attacks, which lets you power attack et all with them. That means they are still thrown attacks.

Furthermore, what this does that you may not be aware of is automatic returning on all your thrown weapons, which means you don't disarm yourself in the first round, even WITH all your thrown weapons you are juggling.

Yes, I was already corrected on that. I am also aware of the free returning weapons, I just chose not to use it because I'm not really a fan of Bo9S classes and don't have the book they're in.

Crasical
2011-02-16, 09:34 PM
If you must have full BAB there's the Sneak Fighter from UA.
5 Levels will give you 3d6 sneak and 5 BAB.
It will cost you some feats though.


I'm already using the Thug variant, and I need the fighter feats to qualify for Master Thrower early. I don't think you can swap between Sneak Attack fighter and the normal Feats version between levels.

MightyPirate
2011-02-16, 11:01 PM
Ranger is possible, full BAB, TWF and an animal companion to play fetch.
The Distracting attack varient from PH2 might work, but you're using other tricks to get that effect and gain no benefit yourself. I'm not conviced that this class works for you.

I don't know how to make ranger work properly for this build but I sure hope someone knows a class with animal companion access that just happens to be suitable. This character is just screaming for a bear cub sidekick who wears a tutu and rides a unicycle. :smallbiggrin:

The_JJ
2011-02-16, 11:38 PM
****ing lay on hands. How does that work?

... umm... yeah. This needs to be pimped out with Ride (Unicycle) and some effective ways to fight unarmored (in fool's motley.)

Zaq
2011-02-16, 11:59 PM
I don't see what Paladin offers you, really. The juggling is cute, but why Paladin?

Crasical
2011-02-17, 12:22 AM
It's a full BaB class and I like the idea of a holy fool. I'm not especially married to the idea, really. Those levels could be anything.

Shyftir
2011-02-17, 02:14 AM
Work in Invisible Blade and juggle knives. That gets you some sneak attack as well as making you a total master of feinting. and why not Bard? Imagine, your bardic music is powered by juggling and witty comments. Also there is a mountebank class somewhere.

Also instead of pure fighter multiclass with swash buckler and pick up int to damage and weapon finesse.