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SylvanPrincess
2011-02-16, 02:22 PM
game finally starts on sunday! its been months of deliberation, but i think ive finally got it.

the thing im going to be (i think lol) is a monk2/swashbuckler3/rogue15, with the daring outlaw and ascetic rogue feats to get 2d8 unarmed damage, 9d6 sneak attack damage, and +3dodge/+2grace bonuses.

so max damage is 16+int (4)+str(3) +54(SA) =77 per fist! seems low compared to some of the crazy stuff ive seen out there, should i change anything?

also was going to use the invisible fist alt class variant, and the kung fu genius feat (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Kung_Fu_Genius). invisible fist swaps out my redundant evasion for the ability to go invisible for a round as an immediate action (u must wait 3 rounds to do so again)

the problem i see is this build only has 15 bab. any other thoughts or ideas to max this INT build? my numbers are 18, 18, 16, 14, 11, 5. im starting as a 5th level character.

Human Paragon 3
2011-02-16, 03:01 PM
I am sort of wondering why you went rogue 15 instead of Swash 16. The full BAB will really help you hit with those flurry of blows attempts, and for me, the purpose of the daring outlaw feat is to slap sneak attack on that full BAB swashbuckler chassis, not give rogues a small dodge bonus to AC...

Also, make sure to get the craven feat, which will add your character level to every sneak attack.

I would substitute Decisive Strike for Furry of Blows (PHB II alternate class feature for monk). It doubles the damage of your attack (and all your attacks of opportunity for the round) instead of giving you an extra attack. The sneak attack damage won't be doubled, but the Swashbuckler int to damage and the craven bonus will be.

Telonius
2011-02-16, 03:09 PM
The Craven feat should definitely be used here.

SylvanPrincess
2011-02-16, 03:52 PM
I am sort of wondering why you went rogue 15 instead of Swash 16. The full BAB will really help you hit with those flurry of blows attempts, and for me, the purpose of the daring outlaw feat is to slap sneak attack on that full BAB swashbuckler chassis, not give rogues a small dodge bonus to AC...

Also, make sure to get the craven feat, which will add your character level to every sneak attack.

I would substitute Decisive Strike for Furry of Blows (PHB II alternate class feature for monk). It doubles the damage of your attack (and all your attacks of opportunity for the round) instead of giving you an extra attack. The sneak attack damage won't be doubled, but the Swashbuckler int to damage and the craven bonus will be.

nice thought on decisive strike! i am confused how it would work with 2 weapon fighting tho, it confuses me a little, because it says "full round action"

the reason i am going rogue 15 is because daring outlaw (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Daring_Outlaw) and ascetic rogue (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Ascetic_Rogue) both have rogue in them, so rogue has to be the highest lev. if i did swash 16/rogue 2/monk 2, then id only do 1d8 unarmed strike. this way i get 2d8 and almost full sneak attack.

another interesting thing is that my dm has stated i can use psychic rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) to qualify for those 2 feats if i want. i would have lower sneak attack damage, but 4th level powers.

and craven (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Craven) looks great too, id never seen it before. nice add. though this character is NOT a cowardly type at all

SurlySeraph
2011-02-16, 04:48 PM
I'd go with Swash 16 instead of Rogue, and skip taking Ascetic Rogue and instead take Superior Unarmed Strike, which'll still progress your unarmed strike as you go up in level.

Decisive Strike does NOT work with TWF, since it's a full-round action. If most of your levels are in Swashbuckler, you'll have high enough BAB to make the extra attack from Flurry worthwhile, so I'd stick with Flurry + TWF to get lots of attacks to sneak attack with.

I'd also add the feat Staggering Strike. It's great for full attacking as a rogue-type, because once you're doing a good amount of sneak attack damage (again: take Craven) it'll prevent enemies from full attacking you back unless they have absolutely ludicrous Fort saves.

SylvanPrincess
2011-02-17, 07:03 PM
I'd go with Swash 16 instead of Rogue, and skip taking Ascetic Rogue and instead take Superior Unarmed Strike, which'll still progress your unarmed strike as you go up in level.

Decisive Strike does NOT work with TWF, since it's a full-round action. If most of your levels are in Swashbuckler, you'll have high enough BAB to make the extra attack from Flurry worthwhile, so I'd stick with Flurry + TWF to get lots of attacks to sneak attack with.

I'd also add the feat Staggering Strike. It's great for full attacking as a rogue-type, because once you're doing a good amount of sneak attack damage (again: take Craven) it'll prevent enemies from full attacking you back unless they have absolutely ludicrous Fort saves.

from what ive read on superior unarmed strike, i wouldnt deal nearly the same damage. plus i like the saves from monk, i really think 2 levels of monk are worthwhile.

i plan on this character being more of a sonya-from-streetfighter unarmed fighter than a generic monk. and im not so sad about lost bab, though itd be nice to be over 15.

VirOath
2011-02-17, 07:08 PM
game finally starts on sunday! its been months of deliberation, but i think ive finally got it.

the thing im going to be (i think lol) is a monk2/swashbuckler3/rogue15, with the daring outlaw and ascetic rogue feats to get 2d8 unarmed damage, 9d6 sneak attack damage, and +3dodge/+2grace bonuses.

so max damage is 16+int (4)+str(3) +54(SA) =77 per fist! seems low compared to some of the crazy stuff ive seen out there, should i change anything?

also was going to use the invisible fist alt class variant, and the kung fu genius feat (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Kung_Fu_Genius). invisible fist swaps out my redundant evasion for the ability to go invisible for a round as an immediate action (u must wait 3 rounds to do so again)

the problem i see is this build only has 15 bab. any other thoughts or ideas to max this INT build? my numbers are 18, 18, 16, 14, 11, 5. im starting as a 5th level character.

You are forgetting, if you flurry monk levels count as Full BAB, which will get you your missing point to get the fourth attack.

Unless my math is wrong.

The Cat Goddess
2011-02-17, 07:29 PM
You are forgetting, if you flurry monk levels count as Full BAB, which will get you your missing point to get the fourth attack.

Unless my math is wrong.

Only in Pathfinder, not standard 3.5.

Convince your DM that Daring Outlaw and Ascetic Rogue should stack, allowing all three classes to stack with each other. Considering you don't gain alot if you stick with Rogue as the main class I don't see why not. Even if you stick with Swashbuckler as the main class, the only advantage to allowing them to stack would be the unarmed damage.

Hardly that big a deal, considering you're spending two feats.

If you go Psychic Rogue, then Tashlatora (sp?) is the Monk-crossover feat you're supposed to get... but if he lets you get away with Ascetic Rogue, jump on it!

SurlySeraph
2011-02-17, 07:42 PM
from what ive read on superior unarmed strike, i wouldnt deal nearly the same damage. plus i like the saves from monk, i really think 2 levels of monk are worthwhile.

i plan on this character being more of a sonya-from-streetfighter unarmed fighter than a generic monk. and im not so sad about lost bab, though itd be nice to be over 15.

It's not the Monk levels I take issue with, it's 12 of the Rogue levels. Superior Unarmed Strike will have you doing 2d6 with your unarmed strikes at 16th level, just behind Monk. So you'd only be losing an average 2 damage per unarmed strike. In exchange, you'd get +4 BAB. A fourth attack per round and a better chance to hit with all attacks is significantly better than 2 damage per hit for combat purposes.

You can also consider taking the Sneak Attack Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) variant, which you could combine with the Hit-and-Run Fighter variant from Drow of the Underdark (which trades armor and shield proficiency for +Dexterity to damage against flat-footed targets, and +2 initiative).

Rogue 1/ Monk 2/ Hit-and-Run Sneak Attack Fighter 1/ Swashbuckler 16 gives you +18 BAB and +10d6 Sneak Attack.

Or you could do Monk 2/ HaR SA Fighter 1/ Swash 5/ Rogue 12. That's +16 BAB, all the Sneak Attack you need, etc. and lets you stick with being mostly a Rogue. Or Monk 2/ Swash 6/ Rogue 12 for +16 BAB, if you don't want to use that Fighter variant.

The Cat Goddess
2011-02-17, 07:48 PM
Oh yeah... see if you can't do the Unarmed Swordsage variant in place of Monk (using those feats).

Then, be sure you get Swashbuckler levels first, then Rogue Levels. then U-SS levels so your base initiator level will be higher when you pick your manuvers/stances.

2 Swashbuckler, 2 Rogue, 1 U-SS, 1 Swashbuckler, 1 U-SS, then finish out with Swash or Rogue... or even U-SS if you can get the GM to let the feats stack with each other.

This gets you all the sweet Tiger Claw manuevers as well as Shadow Hand & easy access to the Shadow Blade feat.

SylvanPrincess
2011-02-17, 11:21 PM
Oh yeah... see if you can't do the Unarmed Swordsage variant in place of Monk (using those feats).

Then, be sure you get Swashbuckler levels first, then Rogue Levels. then U-SS levels so your base initiator level will be higher when you pick your manuvers/stances.

2 Swashbuckler, 2 Rogue, 1 U-SS, 1 Swashbuckler, 1 U-SS, then finish out with Swash or Rogue... or even U-SS if you can get the GM to let the feats stack with each other.

This gets you all the sweet Tiger Claw manuevers as well as Shadow Hand & easy access to the Shadow Blade feat.

trying not to use tob, sorry.

isnt is 4 dam per hit? just wondering, 2d6=12, 2d8=16. i just dont see much wrong with the rogue levels. if i were going to do swash, i might combine it like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9986183&postcount=1).

interesting thought, would a riposte (scout alt feature) decisive strike, combat reflexes build be cool? wait to be attacked, then deal double unarmed damage + sneak attack + riposte damage? per your dex bonus (for combat reflexes?)? (decisive strike deals double damage for each hit until your next turn)