D&D Army

[Tyndmyr]

So, split off from an earlier conversation, since we'd gotten fairly off topic. Long story short, the discussion centered on what sort of gear would be effective in a D&D army or any warband larger than your typical party. As is typical, this led to long disagreement. Naturally, the best way to solve D&D arguments is by playing D&D. Therefore, here goes. Anyone interested?

Proposed Challenge -Updated!

Everyone builds an army. You start with the following:

One free 2nd level PC classed char.
10,000G to buy a keep/other buildings.
10,000G to buy equipment and things.
1,000G to pay for soldiers.

Allowed sources: Core + SBG + ToM + Minatures Handbook + CArc+ CSco + CChamp + Cityscape(minus contact/loans) + Dungeonscape + Stormwrack + Sandstorm + Phb 2 + HoH(no taint though) + Strongheart Halflings. No crafting. All purchased troops are level 1, and must be of a single race. Infinite combos will result in being beaten about the head and shoulders.

For simplicity, here are the monthly costs of troops:

3 Gp -Untrained commoner. No useful skills or feats. Nonelite array
9 Gp -NPC classed chars. You select skills and feats. Nonelite array
30 Gp -PC classed chars. You select skills and feats. Elite array.

Battles take place on an open field, starting 200 ft apart from the armies nearest points. Your entire army must be no more than 200ft from each other initially.

Battle goes until one side admits defeat, or until one side lacks anyone still able to take actions within 500ft of the battlefield center(ie, directly between the two armies).

A keep is considered taken when you, and only you, still have people left moving inside. All keeps must have at least one entrance large enough to admit the soldiers that man it. The keep may have as many defenders inside of it as it can house.

Monthly income:
Without a keep: 500 GP/month.
With a keep: 1000 GP/month.

Winner: First person to hold a majority of keeps.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Are you accounting for Morale?

Also, if I call my army The Romans, are they allowed to call light?

[Tyndmyr]

Are you accounting for Morale?

Also, if I call my army The Romans, are they allowed to call light?

No morale in DMG, Im afraid. I'm really tempted to use heros of battle, tbh, but I don't know that everyone is familiar with/uses it. So, least common denominator is probably easiest. That said, I expect that there'll be a tendency to call fights once the outcome is fairly certain.

Only if you then say "Et tu, brute", while your opponent gleefully takes command of yer troops. =)

[Telasi]

How will such large-scale battles be resolved? Do you plan to just roll everybody individually, or take averages, or what?

I assume you mean ECL 1, so no LA.

I'm interested, though I'll need some time to pin down a force. Probably have a few companies by tonight.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

My opponent can only take command of my troops if he calls his commander Gurrundi.

[Tyndmyr]

Good call. Yes, ECL 1. I want to avoid DR heavy armies and the like. As ideas like this get collected, I'll pile em up for the actual game thread.

Roll individually, but keep in mind that it's fairly easy to roll a bunch of D20s at once for a unit.

Units of identical troops can all go on the same init count(single roll for them all). This is pretty much necessary to keep track of things.

I look forward to someone getting nothing but commoners armed with slings and rocks and going swarm-style.

[Re'ozul]

So 666 kobold commoners are okay?

[Maeglin_Dubh]

I'd go for 600 Adamantine Warforged.

Good game.

[Tyndmyr]

*chuckles* Yup. Keep in mind they're as per the DMG kobolds, though. Not the dragonwrought awesomeness.

Sorry, Adamantine warforged are not core.

[Gavinfoxx]

So we're allowed to use heroic classes?

Or is the idea to keep this to level 1 nonheroic classes?

If its nonheroic classes, can we use classes from noncore?

If I was doing this, I'd limit it to nonheroic classes and resources, but NOT limit it to core, going with these classes:

Expert, Commoner, Warrior, Religious Adept, Urban Adept, Magewright, Aristocrat, maybe even Augur or Gleaner?

[Maeglin_Dubh]

SRD only, or DMG/PHB/MM?

[Re'ozul]

*chuckles* Yup. Keep in mind they're as per the DMG kobolds, though. Not the dragonwrought awesomeness.

Sorry, Adamantine warforged are not core.

Does that change the 3 natural attacks?

[Lord_Gareth]

I don't think 2000G is going to raise any armies, friend; the cost of weapons alone is prohibitive unless you build them all yourself.

[Tyndmyr]

SRD only, or DMG/PHB/MM?

DMG/PHB/MM is core. SRD has some other things as well, Im afraid.

Just core classes, and PC classes are permitted as well, though you'll note that they're significantly more expensive as listed above. As everyone is level 1, I'm not overly worried about the core classes being too overwhelming. Numbers will certainly still be a factor.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if toughness is fairly popular.

[Yora]

So we're allowed to use heroic classes?

Or is the idea to keep this to level 1 nonheroic classes?

If its nonheroic classes, can we use classes from noncore?

If I was doing this, I'd limit it to nonheroic classes and resources, but NOT limit it to core, going with these classes:

Expert, Commoner, Warrior, Religious Adept, Urban Adept, Magewright, Aristocrat, maybe even Augur or Gleaner?

It's stated in the first post. You can have characters with PC classes, but each one costs 30 gp wages instead of 9 gp for characters with NPC classes.

[Tyndmyr]

Does that change the 3 natural attacks?

I'm not seeing any natural attacks for kobold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kobold.htm).

[Lord_Gareth]

I don't think 2000G is going to raise any armies, friend; the cost of weapons alone is prohibitive unless you build them all yourself.

Reposting in case it was missed.

[Darth Stabber]

If WH40k has taught me anything Models > Wargear.

Assuming I only need them for the 1 day

20,000x
Warforged Commoner
Str>Con>Dex>Wis>Int>Cha
Equipment:none

[Gavinfoxx]

Realllyyyy, limiting this to phb/dmg/mm1 is really, really stifling...

[Tyndmyr]

It's sufficient for a small army. Consider, a spear is 2gp. You can afford to equip a fairly decent number of troops if you are so inclined, or you can have a much smaller band of more effective types. Or some sort of hybrid.

Yes, armies do come in larger sizes....but we do want battles to actually be completed.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

10 GP a month for a warrior.
3 GP for a light wooden shield.
2 GP for a shortspear.


You could replace the shortspear with darts, getting 4 for the value of the spear. You could replace it with a club, which to me seems to be cheesing the rules a bit (I personally wouldn't ever go to war with nothing but an axe-handle, but YMMV). Sling works, and could be added to the above template at no cost.

Dunno. Seems like it could be interesting, but it depends on how much you want a believable army, and how much it's just an Op Excercise.

[Oracle_Hunter]

What's the policy on beasts? Can I have Druids (with Speak With Animals (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/speakWithAnimals.htm)) leading House Cat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm) death squads? :smalltongue:

EDIT: Scratch that. How about 50 Druids (30 GP x 50 = 1500 GP) each with Wolf animal companions (free!) and armed with slings (free) using regular stones (free) with Leather Armor (10 GP x 50 = 500 GP). If I'm allowed to use Wild Empathy to gather more animals I just win harder :smallbiggrin:

[Lord_Gareth]

Yes, but consider the level at which your average adventurer gets to blow 2,000 GP and then ask yourself: what kind of broke-ass kingdom is only throwing 2K into an army?

[Tyndmyr]

If WH40k has taught me anything Models > Wargear.

Assuming I only need them for the 1 day

20,000x
Warforged Commoner
Str>Con>Dex>Wis>Int>Cha
Equipment:none

Gotta pay wages for a month(as typically supplies are a thing, and there is marching to the battle). And warforged are not core. All in the first post.

Gavin, unfortunately, yes. But it at least avoids a number of really wild things, and makes the initial rule list relatively short. I can certainly see the argument of opening it up to more stuff in the future if it catches on as a thing, but it started from the "what if" questions as to what a normal D&D army would look like.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

For my money, I'd probably see 130 Human Warriors, armed with light shields and shortspears, all with slings and a pouch of rocks.

Believable, versatile, and cheap.

[Tyndmyr]

What's the policy on beasts? Can I have Druids (with Speak With Animals (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/speakWithAnimals.htm)) leading House Cat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm) death squads? :smalltongue:

If it's on the equipment lists from those sources, you can buy it. Horses, riding dogs, all that jazz is legit.

However, Im afraid cats do not come as soldiers by default, and Speak with Animals doesn't coerce them to be such. I believe by RAW, you need handle animal checks to make non-wartrained animals do something.

Yeah, I realize it's mostly a joke...but still, good question.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

For reference, ten warriors with longbows and 40 arrows apiece comes to 870. Without armor.

[Yora]

Here's my army:

50 elven archers.
All they have is a shortbow and 20 arrows.
That's 30 gp for the bow, 1 gp for the arrows, and 9gp wages. That makes 40gp per archer, times 50 is 2,000 gp.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

My math might be a bit silly, since I thought wages for a warrior came to 10. But I'm ok with 9.

Could you update the first post, listing wages by month so everyone's using the same value?

[Oracle_Hunter]

However, Im afraid cats do not come as soldiers by default, and Speak with Animals doesn't coerce them to be such. I believe by RAW, you need handle animal checks to make non-wartrained animals do something.
What, cats need special coercion to secretly murder people? :smalltongue:

Anyhoo, I'm sticking with Oracle Hunter's All-Natural Army for the time being :smallcool:

[woodenbandman]

Elf commoners, all with ranks in craft so they can craft their own bows.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Maybe 666 halfling slingers.

[Tyndmyr]

My math might be a bit silly, since I thought wages for a warrior came to 10. But I'm ok with 9.

Could you update the first post, listing wages by month so everyone's using the same value?

Good call. Updated to eliminate needless math.

I would be ok with craftsmen reducing the price of weapons for the type they make. Presumably, as you've paid them for a month, they could have been crafting for that time, which will reduce the weapons cost as per the appropriate craft skill.

[Yora]

That sounds even better. They have all these nice boni to ranged attacks and are notoriously difficult to hit.

[Darth Stabber]

25% Human commoners with slings and normal stones. 75% human commoners with clubs. However much of that 2000gp buys for the alloted time.

1 large unruly mob.

[Lord_Gareth]

Are we allowed to craft our own equipment for the purposes of saving on expenses?

[Tyndmyr]

Are we allowed to craft our own equipment for the purposes of saving on expenses?

Presumably that's what the higher rate for craftsmen in the DMG is for. After all, I dunno why else you'd hire one except to have them craft for you.

I say, go for it. Build those craftsmen with maxed ranks in craft(whatever weapon) a skill focus feat, and a wisely chosen primary stat to boost their output for the month.

[Lord_Gareth]

Presumably that's what the higher rate for craftsmen in the DMG is for. After all, I dunno why else you'd hire one except to have them craft for you.

Honestly Tyndmyr, what I'd suggest is that you give a figure for an "average" city-state in 3.5 and have us raise a military using its wealth. That way you know what a real 3.5 army should look like. If you want us to have an actual engagement, you can always reduce numbers later.

[Oracle_Hunter]

That sounds even better. They have all these nice boni to ranged attacks and are notoriously difficult to hit.
Hmm...

Wolves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm) have a speed of 50' and an AC 14 while slings have a range of increment of 50'. If we start off at 200' apart, can the wolves of my All Natural Army devour the Halflings before getting pelted to death? :smallconfused:

Perhaps there's a Druid 1 Spell to help me here. If I get initiative, I can throw a couple of Obscuring Mists (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/obscuringMist.htm) to allow my wolves to advance under cover - although that will slow down their advance. Of course, my Druids can also launch a second wave of Wolves with Summon Nature's Ally I (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyI.htm). If my Druids cast in waves I can probably keep the Halflings drowning in Wolves.

...still, the Halfling army needs a name.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'm thinking Mules for tanking, and holding the line, and halfling slingers behind them? Maybe some humans with longspears or something?

[Yora]

What about lizardfolk?
They are CR 1 and bring 2 racial HD and nifty natural armor.
That's 9 gp wages, 7 gp for a large wooden shield and 2 gp for a spear. Making 18 gp per head or 111 man.

But each one would have to kill 6 halflings to win the battle.

[Tyndmyr]

Honestly Tyndmyr, what I'd suggest is that you give a figure for an "average" city-state in 3.5 and have us raise a military using its wealth. That way you know what a real 3.5 army should look like. If you want us to have an actual engagement, you can always reduce numbers later.

Then you've got to build armies twice, at two different scales. Multiplication can give us a pretty solid idea of what the fullscale army would be.

A big problem is that there's no real RAW definition of the average size of an army or state. Cities, yes...but there's no assumption that a single city will be a country. It might, it might not. It ends up being incredibly setting dependent. And, while it's possible to calculate the wealth of a city fairly easily, it's a much stickier situation calculating what proportion of that is immediately available for use in an army.

Historically, I believe 1 in 10 citizens on the battlefield is about as large as can normally be expected. Many were far, far less if they focused on a small cadre of professional soldiers, but the number varied wildly, and the proportion of wealth spent on military also varies incredibly.

Edit: Also, army names are a fantastic idea.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Presumably that's what the higher rate for craftsmen in the DMG is for. After all, I dunno why else you'd hire one except to have them craft for you.

I say, go for it. Build those craftsmen with maxed ranks in craft(whatever weapon) a skill focus feat, and a wisely chosen primary stat to boost their output for the month.

See, I like that, but it's more math than I want to do.

I feel ok losing to someone who goes to that much trouble, I suppose.

EDIT: Slings, clubs, and quarterstaves are going to be a common denominator, I'm sure. But the thing is, you can have an army of adepts using all these things and not lose much from the warrior army. Once again, spellcasters win.

[Land Outcast]

What about lizardfolk?
They are CR 1 and bring 2 racial HD and nifty natural armor.
That's 9 gp wages, 7 gp for a large wooden shield and 2 gp for a spear. Making 18 gp per head or 111 man.

But each one would have to kill 6 halflings to win the battle.

Lizarfolk are not level 1 but 3 (2 HD +1 LA)

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, I'm thinking an army of adepts with Sleep, slings, clubs, and quarterstaves would win REALLY well... maybe an occasional Cleric or Wizard or Druid or Bard.

[Tyndmyr]

If it helps, the non-elite array has a +1 has it's highest modifier. So, a specialized human crafter with a skill focus would have a +8, for an 18 when taking ten(because making all those rolls would suck) while using standard tools. That should be high enough to autopass most craft check (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm)s for our purposes.

Using the weekly formula, you should easily be able to create an item a week, so four items at 1/3rd price per crafter of the appropriate type(provided the item is low enough on the craft DC to make it by taking ten).

I believe it should be possible to come out ahead with shields and what not, though it's probably not an immense factor.

[The Deej]

Is this a theoretical/thought exercise type challenge, or a pbp one?

[Maeglin_Dubh]

So, my armies so far.

Tycho's Warband
130 Human Warriors, armed with slings, stones, shortspears, and light shields.
3 of them are officers wearing leather armor.


Blackshire Defense Initiative
650 Halfling Commoners, armed with slings.
5 Halfling Warriors, armed with slings and quarterstaves. One of these is a Shirrif wearing padded armor.


The Wayward Hand Society
50 Human Monks, armed with Sais.

[Land Outcast]

A strike squad of 15 druids using wolves as shocktroops...
An army of 222 adepts armed with clubs, casting Sleep twice...
Still, the winners by far are the 666 halfling commoners with slings...

I don't know why but these offers kind of discourage me from trying to put together an army.

By the way, noone mentioned orcs. :)

[Maeglin_Dubh]

A strike squad of 15 druids using wolves as shocktroops...
An army of 222 adepts armed with clubs, casting Sleep twice...
Still, the winners by far are the 666 halfling commoners with slings...

I don't know why but these offers kind of discourage me from trying to put together an army.

By the way, noone mentioned orcs. :)

I had considered orcs. Still trying to think of a good theme for them.

The fun of this challenge for me isn't the CharOp nature of it, but in coming up with something that makes sense as well, given the parameters. Rather than just 666 halflings, I tried to even it out a bit and give it some more sense and flavor.

So don't be discouraged! Try to make something awesome! Sure the casters will almost certainly win, but you can still make an army with style.

[linebackeru]

Wait, so the salary you pay an NPC doesn't include his gear? If I hire a Wizard, do I have to buy a spellbook for him?

[Tyndmyr]

Is this a theoretical/thought exercise type challenge, or a pbp one?

I would like to make this an actual pbp thing, but this thread is not limited to that...Im trying to figure out a few things before I put together an official recruitment post, and wild speculation/ideas are certainly welcomed.

It seems to me that ranks of troops should obscure LOS at some point. Sure, we have the normal cover rule, but at a given number of ranks between you and the target, I imagine that seeing them wouldn't really be possible any more. Say...3+ ranks of troops between you, and they have total cover? Does that seem reasonable?

Personally, I'd make a combined arms approach. Im not certain of the details, but I'd definitely use a variety of specialized units.

Edit: spellbook is a class feature. It comes with the wizard, and he keeps it. Anything that comes as a class feature can be assumed to exist on the character...no paying for familiars or anything like that.

[Doug Lampert]

Elf commoners, all with ranks in craft so they can craft their own bows.

You will lose, badly, to the halfling horde with slings and clubs. It has much better attack, better AC, better HP (warriors rather than commoners), and is cheaper (you still need to pay for materials for those bows and arrows).

Note that the halflings should buy bullets. 9.1 GP instead of 9 GP is worth the cost difference for a +1 to hit and a 1d3 rather than 1d2 base damage.

Note that if craftsmen are allowed at the absurdly low rate of 9 GP/month (stated in Tyndmyr's post), then everyone using noticable non-masterwork mundane gear should hire craftsmen for their manufacturing.

This will reduce costs to about 1/2 on such gear, and ALSO gives some extra warm bodies on battle day.

Note also that 9 GP is absurdly low, a dedicated level 1 core only commoner craftsman hits a check of 18 on a take ten. This gives pay of 9 GP per WEEK according to the PHB rules for using craft for pay (not per month). At 9 GP per week hiring craftsmen falls back to being marginal at best, which it should be, at 9 GP per month your adventurers should solve all their money needs at level 1 by hiring craftsmen at 9 GP per month, and renting them out a 9 GP per week!

[Tyndmyr]

I agree, the crafting does seem a tad low...but we're not using craftsmen to provide infinite money, just to reduce the cost of gear actually used in war.

And honestly, the idea of every army having a few craftsmen with to make armor and weapons doesn't strike me as unusual.

Edit: Also, elves have a bonus vs sleep. Im just saying.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Races/Concepts I haven't finished developing yet....

Something with Aquatic Elves (MM1). Tactics might depend on the terrain involved. Thinking of things to do with nets as well.

Dwarves. They don't get much that helps in this setting, except against certain army lineups (goblins, orcs, etc.). But I'm determined to come up with something.

Forest Gnome Guerrillas.

An army of Kobold Trapmakers.

Orcs. This is another one I don't have a clear idea for yet. But rest assured, Greatclubs will be involved.


EDIT: I see each of these mini-armies as being a small, specialized unit of its own. Also, I'm building my armies based on generalities, and the specifics of crafting and optimizing individuals in the army to make specific numbers of specific items boggles me a little.

[Typewriter]

Not doing this in my thread makes me much more inclined. My thread just depresses me, as I go to sleep every night knowing I'm going to have to wake up and respond to arguments, and I wake up dreading the computer.

Halfling Group A:
Warriors(9 GP cost)
STR 11(13-2)
DEX 14(12+2)
CON 11
INT 10
WIS 9
CHA 8

4 HP

Equipment:
Dagger, cost 2, damage 1d4 (.5 pounds)
Hide Armor, 15 GP cost, +2 AC (12.5 pounds)
Tower Shield, 30 GP cost, +2 AC (22.5 pounds)

Medium Load, skill penalties

Feat:
Weapon Finesse

AC = 20
Dagger = +2 to hit (+1 size, -2 Tower shield, +2 Dex, +1 BAB) 1d3 19-20x2
Cost = 56 GP per unit(9 per troop, 15 for armor, 30 for shield, 2 for dagger)

Halfling Group B:
Commoners(3 GP)
STR 10 (12-2)
DEX 14(12+2)
CON 13
INT 10
WIS 9
CHA 8

3 HP

Equipment:
Longspear, cost 5, damage 1d6(reach)
Sling, cost -, damage 1d3(range 50)
50 bullets(.5 gold)
Club, cost -

Feat:
Weapon Focus (Longspear)

AC = 13
Longspear = +2 to hit(weapon focus, small size) 1d6 20x3
Sling= +3 to hit(small size, Dex +2) 1d4 20x2
Club = +1(size), 1d6 20x3
Cost = 8.5 GP(3 commoner, 5 longspear, .5 bullets)

Halfling Group C:
Commoner(3 GP)
STR 10 (12-2)
DEX 14(12+2)
CON 13
INT 10
WIS 9
CHA 8

3 HP

Equipment:
Sling, cost -, damage 1d3(range 50)
100 bullets(1 gold)

Feat:
Weapon Focus (Sling)

AC = 13
Sling= +4 to hit(weapon focus, small size, Dex +2) 1d3 20x2
Cost = 4 GP(3 commoner, 1 ammo)

A: Cost 56
B: Cost 8.5
C: Cost 4
D:Special

AAAAAAAA
ABBBBBBA
ABCCCCBA
ABCDDCBA
ABCDDCBA
ABCCCCBA
ABBBBBBA
AAAAAAAA

8x8 surrounding square of A = 1680 Gold
Middle circle of B(6x6) = 170
Inner circle of C(4x4) = 16
Total so far = 1866
4 Special:

2 Bards, 2 clerics = 120 Gold

14 gold left over

If allowed the clerics and bards will use hide to try and stay hidden in the army until the opponent nears so as to avoid missile attacks (is an army sufficient for stealth?). If so they have skill focus(stealth) and max ranks, which will get them about +9(skill focus, 4 from size, 2 from dex), otherwise they have toughness(and I believe that core classes get max on first HD as well).
Clerics will use bless(+1 to hit), and bards will focus on buffing (+1 hit/damage for all who can hear).

Group A will use their shields for total cover unless opponents are 5' feet away. Group B will use slings unless Group A has opponents, and then they will switch to longspear. Group C will sling constantly. Group D will try to buff and keep each other alive (2 clerics, and 2 bards, all have cure light wounds, only 1 bard needs to be actively singing to grant bonuses).

I believe that this particular squad will get trounced by absolutely anything with a good focus on ranged, but in melee combat every opponent will have 2-3 attacks raining down on them dealing a minimum of 2, and an average of 5 damage if bardic music is going, and that's if they get swarmed. If they can get themselves into a corner they can limit the number of sides being attacked at once, and focus all their ranged attacks against a smaller focus of targets. Casters or opponents with ranged weapons would be priority.

Did I violate any of the rules with this army?


EDIT:
I see the prices for warriors may have been a bit off so I'll make some adjustments. How much are we allowing crafters to reduce the cost, because if so I may have a few of those as well....

[Land Outcast]

So don't be discouraged! Try to make something awesome! Sure the casters will almost certainly win, but you can still make an army with style.

Hehe, you can bet I'll do :smallsmile:

just saying.

[Tvtyrant]

Half-Orc Army:
1 Bard without any equipment except his voice for 30 gold, 492 commoners equipped with Javelins. Bard uses Inspire Courage on his army of commoners and they all throw the javelins. You get an average of 1,900 damage. Of course it would be spread over several rounds, but not bad.
~Comparatively with just halfling sling commoners you get 1,000 damage average. You do it more consistently though.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

snip for epic midget army....

See, that's way more than I can process at once. Good work, though.

[Darth Stabber]

The Fighting Shepards

666 Orc Commoners with with clubs
Stats-Str>Con>Dex>Cha>Wis>Int
Feat - Skill Focus(handle animal)
Skills - Handle Animal
I am assuming each one has a 50/50 chance of training an animal for combat (dog, cat, sheep or something)

The remaining money will be spent on soap. Yes I am just trying to flood the field with bodies. Assuming 12ac targets the shepards hit 55% for 1d4+3 So that would be 3damage average per dude per turn times 666 dudes, so 1998/round output, That's not counting the Dogs, but That was just so I could do something with the feat and skill points.

[Tyndmyr]

If allowed the clerics and bards will use hide to try and stay hidden in the army until the opponent nears so as to avoid missile attacks (is an army sufficient for stealth?). If so they have skill focus(stealth) and max ranks, which will get them about +9(skill focus, 4 from size, 2 from dex), otherwise they have toughness(and I believe that core classes get max on first HD as well).

Well, by RAW, if the squares between you and the enemy are occupied, you have cover, as per combat modifiers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm). And, if you have cover, you can in fact make a hide check. Even if spotted, cover does provide a nice AC bonus, so there is a certain difficulty in just ignoring the front line(s) of an army.

Im willing to assume max HD for everyone involved. It's a helluva lot easier than tracking individual rolls for everything. Let me know if anyone has any major objections to it, but it strikes me as significantly easier.

Crafters pay 1/3rd the final price for the materials. I made an earlier post with some craft math in it, but if you're an equipment heavy army, then a few crafters will likely save you some coin even after their fees.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

So, crafters basically get you the equipment at 1/3 the price? How much equipment can a crafter produce?

[Hawriel]

OK well I guess my king pockets the 2000 gold and calls in his vasles. The vasles are sworn to the king to gather what forces they have, knights and commoners alike. The commoners must come when their lord commands it. Any 'payment' given to the vasle lords comes from ransoming captured lords and knights.

[Tyndmyr]

The Fighting Shepards

666 Orc Commoners with with clubs
Stats-Str>Con>Dex>Cha>Wis>Int
Feat - Skill Focus(handle animal)
Skills - Handle Animal
I am assuming each one has a 50/50 chance of training an animal for combat (dog, cat, sheep or something)

The remaining money will be spent on soap.

Looks solid. However the DMG does specify "untrained" commoners for the lower price, which I take to mean lacking in any skills, or feats that would be at all helpful.

However, craftsmen(relevant skills/feats) are still pretty cheap compared to PC classes, and that'll get you whatcha need.

Handle animal works as per RAW:

Fighting (DC 20): An animal trained to engage in combat knows the tricks attack, down, and stay. Training an animal for fighting takes three weeks.

Guarding (DC 20): An animal trained to guard knows the tricks attack, defend, down, and guard. Training an animal for guarding takes four weeks.

Either of those should be doable in the month you've paid for. Other tricks are available as well, whatever's listed in the skill. For you to train an animal, it has to be listed somewhere in core, and it'll cost whatever price it's normally listed at. I presume most wild animals could not use the rear from birth option, as they take too long to go from infancy to adulthood, but if you find an exception, kudos. Bring on the attack bunnies.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Your vassals are insulted by your king's poor spelling in his call to arms.

They revolt.

[Tyndmyr]

Your vassals are insulted by your king's poor spelling in his call to arms.

They revolt.

Heh. Yeah, that almost caused mt dew spewing.


Crafting is as per the craft skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm). So...depends on how much you focus on crafting. Assuming they have a normal(non mw) set of tools bought for them, a skill focus feat, one of their top two stats in the appropriate trait, and four ranks, they get a +8, for a total of 18 when taking ten.

So, you could easily make a weapon a week using that. For inexpensive weapons like spears, this is probably not that big of a thing. However, for anything more expensive, it quickly becomes worthwhile. You can probably be slightly more efficient by using the daily calculations, but that requires more math than I care to do.

[druid91]

How much time do we have? Only the month?

Another question, would you agree that a cat would cost about the same as a chicken?

[Doug Lampert]

Heh. Yeah, that almost caused mt dew spewing.


Crafting is as per the craft skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm). So...depends on how much you focus on crafting. Assuming they have a normal(non mw) set of tools bought for them, a skill focus feat, one of their top two stats in the appropriate trait, and four ranks, they get a +8, for a total of 18 when taking ten.

So, you could easily make a weapon a week using that. For inexpensive weapons like spears, this is probably not that big of a thing. However, for anything more expensive, it quickly becomes worthwhile. You can probably be slightly more efficient by using the daily calculations, but that requires more math than I care to do.

Weekly is more efficient, you can EXPLICITELY manufacture multiple items in a week if your check is high enough, and daily is only 70% as productive.

Craftsmen cost 9 GP for the craftsman, and 5 GP for artisans tools, or 0 GP for improvised tools.

One craftsman with standard tools makes 1.8*DC GP per week, if the DC is less than 9 he adds ten to the DC using the work quickly rules. In all cases he takes ten and I'll assume the month is Febuary and you only get 4 weeks/craftsman.

Worst case is a DC of 9, your craftsmen produce 64.8 GP (drop to the nearest whole number of units) at a cost of 1/3 the value produced + 14 GP.

DC 12-18 you save over half the cost, that covers all weapons and all armor but cloth.

Note that you can do very slightly better by having the actual soldiers roll "assist" on the crafting. Each of them will succeed at least half the time unless Int is less than 8 (even with no ranks, craft is usable untrained). And every one that succeeds is an extra +2 to the check which gives maybe 3 GP extra in gear. But you'll want to be conservative about estimating how much you'll get from this.

[Land Outcast]

One craftsman with standard tools makes 1.8*DC GP per week, if the DC is less than 9 he adds ten to the DC using the work quickly rules. In all cases he takes ten and I'll assume the month is Febuary and you only get 4 weeks/craftsman.Yep, but I don't know about using both the work quickly rules and taking 10 at the same time.

[Telasi]

I can't seem to find the non-elite array in my PHB or DMG. Where is it?

Preliminary army #1: Lorn Dravon Royal Dragoons Reconnaissance Lance 13
"Kite like a man!"
10 Human Warriors w/ Light Warhorse, Riding Saddle, Shortbow, 20 Arrows, Club
Feats: Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery.

Sadly, I fear this would lose because of sheer numbers, so I'll be posting more later.

[Land Outcast]

Ok... here I go...

Human Centuria:
Composed of:

First line of defense/cannon fodder (10 commoners)
equipment: Club and Tower Shield

Shock troops (20 warriors)
equipment: Shortspear and Longspear
Feats: Toughness, Weapon Focus (Longspear)

Legionaries (50 warriors)
equipment: Shortspear, Heavy Wooden Shield and Leather Armor
Feats: Dodge, Weapon Focus (Shortspear)

Ranged support (30 warriors)
equipment: Light Crossbow, 10 bolts, and club
Feats: Point blank shot, Precise shot

1 Centurion (Bard)
Feats: Skill Focus (Concentration), Improved Initiative
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 13

12 Weaponsmiths
13 Armorsmiths

And a bottle of wine

Costs:
10 commoners; Club and Tower Shield
133,3 gp
20 warriors; Shortspear and Longspear
220 gp
50 warriors; Shortspear, Heavy Wooden Shield and Leather Armor
749,5 gp
30 warriors; Light Crossbow, 10 bolts, and club
639,9 gp

1 Bard
30 gp
12 Weaponsmiths
108 gp
13 Armorsmiths
117 gp

Bottle of wine
2 gp

[druid91]

Well how about this.

The furious feline fighting legion!

Trainers, 9gp for a month.
Class expert:
Feats:Animal affinity, skill focus.
Skills of import: Handle animal.
Gear: none
Total bonus to Handle animal= 4+3+2= 9.

Take twenty and each can train a war cat.
Using the price for chickens, Cats cost 2 cp.

So it's 50 cats for one silver, and 500 cats for one gold.

So Trainer total cost, 9 gp for every month.

So 222 Trainers for 1999gp for the first month for the second month, 1 gold for 500 cats. Training 222 war cats, the remainder are pushed into action by the trainers.

[Yukitsu]

Should give a pop cap, and a seperate money cap. There's no real incentive to do anything other than a mook horde.

I'm honestly more interested in seeing a standard "hamlet" spread, with standard NPC wealth for each of them.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Sleep focused armies are pretty easy to defeat since Sleep has a 1 round casting time and only affects a 10' radius burst. Since there's no real advantage to clumping up if you're blitzing, you just need to spread out a little and make some saves. With a range of only 110', my wolves will get there after only one casting (IIRC).

OTOH, a Sorcerer Army might be amusing to use against Commoner armies. 3 Magic Missiles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicMissile.htm) per caster means that I stand a good chance of killing 3 Commoners per Sorcerer (assuming randomly rolled HP)/

[Ksheep]

I present to you:
Shock and Awe

Hire 6 craftsgnomes for a month to help craft the following:
10x Smokesticks
20x Alchemist's fire
30x Acid
(As gnomes get a +2 to craft (alchemy), they could get a 20 when taking a 10 using the method mentioned above, creating 2 smokesticks or alchemist's fires per craftsgnome per week, and 3 acid per gnome per week)

Buy 10 bombs (150 GP each, 2d6 damage)
Hire 1 Gnomish bard, 30 gnomish commoners.
Equip everyone with slings (maybe add quarterstaves in case of melee).
Purchase 624 bullets with remaining money.

Strike at night with a small portion of the army (10 or so), under the cover of smoke from the smokesticks, using gnomes of above-average charisma (using their SLA of ghost-sound and dancing lights to cause confusion (make the opposing army think that the strike force is much bigger)). Throw the bombs, acid, alchemist fires, and thunderstones into the fray, causing further confusion and massive casualties. Have the remaining gnomes attacking from a distance with slings. Bard is singing throughout this to inspire courage.

[Land Outcast]

Here goes another!

Elven Skirmishers of the Deep Forest:

Decoy (20 Warriors)
Equipment: Tower shield, longsword, leather armor
Feat: Dodge
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 14, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8

Decoy Protector (2 Clerics of Obad-Hai)
Equipment: Smokestick & Quarterstaff
Feat: Improved Initiative
Abilities: Str 9, Dex 14, Con 9, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8
Prepared: Cure minor wounds x3; Obscuring Mist x2, Entangle (D)

Snipers #1 (8 Barbarians)
Equipment: Longbow, longsword, 40 arrows
Speed: 40 feet
Feat: Weapon Focus (longbow)
Abilities: Str 12 (Rage 16), Dex 15, Con 9 (Rage 13), Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
Skills: Climb +5, Hide +4, Move Silently +4

Snipers #2 (8 Barbarians)
Equipment: Longbow, longsword, 40 arrows
Speed: 40 feet
Feat: Weapon Focus (longbow)
Abilities: Str 12 (Rage 16), Dex 15, Con 9 (Rage 13), Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
Skills: Climb +5, Hide +4, Move Silently +4

Weaponsmiths - 20

Armorsmiths - 9

And a common lamp, five pints of oil, and a tindertwig


2 Warriors with Tower shield, longsword, leather armor
678.93 gp
2 Clerics with Smokestick & Quarterstaff
100 gp
16 Barbarians with Longbow and longsword
967.11 gp
20 Weaponsmiths
180 gp
9 Armorsmiths
81 gp

common lamp, five pints of oil, and a tindertwig
16 sp

[Mango Fox]

ALL RIGHT LET'S DO THIS.

The White Leash (Elven)
Hire 17 craftsmen to make all equipment, except for drums and crossbow bolts. (As they work, save the scraps of leather).

At the core of the army:
8 fighters wearing hide armor, weilding light crossbows, and carrying 60 bolts apiece.
16 sorcerers
4 bards, holding drums.

Surrounding the core:
12 of the original craftsmen, wielding longswords.
7 warriors, wearing scale mail, and wielding tridents and heavy wooden shields.

At the outer edge:
2 fighters riding light warhorses on military saddles, wearing hide armor and wielding lances.

Assuming that the army has at least 5 minutes notice before the fight, every sorcerer casts Mage Armor on three people (using the leather scraps as material foci), so that everyone gets it. Once the fight begins, the 2 mounted fighters stay back until they get a chance to charge down the enemy artillery. The 4 bards play and use Inspire Courage (I estimated that it will take 4 bards to make sure that everyone hears it). The trident-wielding warriors defend mainly against any enemy cavalry. The 5 left over craftsman stay home and make gravestones.


Receipt:
4 Bards: 120
4 Drums: 20
10 Fighters: 300
Materials for 2 lances: 6.8
2 Light Warhorses: 300
Materials for 2 Military Saddles: 13.4
Materials for 10 Hide Armors: 50
Materials for 12 Longswords: 60
7 Warriors: 63
Materials for 7 tridents: 35
Materials for 7 Heavy Wooden Shields: 16.8
Materials for 7 Scale Mails: 116.9
Materials for 8 Light Crossbows: 93.6
480 Bolts: 48
16 Sorcerers: 420
17 Craftsmen: 153
17 Artisan Toolsets: 85
Total: 1961.5 GP


It was an interesting experiment to make, but I don't think I'd want to play it (sorry Tyndmyr).

[Mango Fox]

18 Weaponsmiths with Mwk. Artisan's tools
252 gp

Hmm... now where are you buying these masterwork artisan's tools from for only 5gp apiece? Last time I checked they were 55gp... :smallwink:

[Land Outcast]

Hmm... now where are you buying these masterwork artisan's tools from for only 5gp apiece? Last time I checked they were 55gp... :smallwink:

Gee... embarassment :smallredface: thanks!

I'll fix that...

(By the way, your army will have really poor maneuverability)

[EDIT]
Fixed it: funny enough, removing those "masterwork tools" didn't change anything but rather gave me more cash to spend (with them I needed, say "17.33" weaponsmiths and without them I need "17.62", which always rounds up to 18).

[Fable Wright]

Hm... I believe I will take a spread.
Cost for an Elvish Archer: 30 gp for the longbow (All have 4 ranks in craft (bowmaking), 5gp for the tools), 10gp for the warrior 1 with weapon specialization (longbow), 1gp for the arrows. Cost: 41gp

Cost for a Elven Bard Archer: 30gp, assuming perform (oratory). Nothing else required, as we want to cut unnecessary costs. Feat is Weapon Specialization (Longbow), so costs for equipment as above. Total cost: 61gp.

Cost for a tower shield-craftsman shield-bearer: 10+15(1/3 the cost, plus the price of tools), or 25gp. +3sp/bag of caltrops on a commoner.

Cost for a Half-Elf Druid: 30gp, comes with a wolf. It has a +2 to diplomacy and the ability to cast Speak With Animals 1/day. Has a heavy wooden shield and hide armor, cost 13gp (both made by it) + 2gp spear, totaling 15gp. Skill point allocation: 4 ranks diplomacy, 4 ranks handle animal, 4 ranks knowledge (nature) (For synergy with wild empathy), 4 ranks craft(armor and shield). If not, a commoner employed can make them. Feat: Skill focus (Handle Animal). Cost: 41gp.

Total purchase: 5 druids (205 gp), 5 bards (305 gp), 20 archers, each with a commoner shield w/ 1 bag/commoner(1326gp), 6 more shield-bearers. Also, 122 quarts of oil.

Tactics: In the weeks preceding the battle, the druids convince bears to harry the enemy, and wolves to their side with Speak With Animal. In combat, the commoners scatter the caltrops before themselves, dissolving any charge as it is all difficult terrain. The druids all cast entangle at key enemy troops- they are unable to move, and the archers, with a +4 to hit, each hit (enhanced by the oil for 1d3 fire damage) deals 1d8+1+1d3 damage, for an average of 7.5, enough to take down 1 troop/shot. They, after firing, take a 5ft step into the same space as the commoner shields, gaining full cover from attacks. There is also the factor of the flaming arrows setting the entangled plants on fire, potentially killing large numbers of troops that way. DM discretion kills. That, and during the fight the druids pour oil across the middle of the field and light a 10ft streak of it on fire, with the aid of their wolves and other animals helping them (Though the animals leave before the fire. One method of doing this might just be dunking squirrels in oil and sticking their fur out, and getting them to cross the battlefield with their tails being used as oil brushes. Now get a herd of squirrels to do this, and you have a flaming line quite quickly with all of your diplomancy with the squirrels). The enemy troops cannot cross the 10ft line of fire without dying, or at least taking heavy wounds. At this point, the survivors are easily picked off. Possibly by animal companions.

[Tyndmyr]

I can't seem to find the non-elite array in my PHB or DMG. Where is it?

Preliminary army #1: Lorn Dravon Royal Dragoons Reconnaissance Lance 13
"Kite like a man!"
10 Human Warriors w/ Light Warhorse, Riding Saddle, Shortbow, 20 Arrows, Club
Feats: Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery.

Sadly, I fear this would lose because of sheer numbers, so I'll be posting more later.

Numbers are a factor, sure, but again, you might be able to modify that with crafting.

Weekly crafting is better? Fair enough. I didn't compare math between them, use whichever you prefer, as both daily and weekly are legit.

Nonelite array can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm). Basically stats ranging from 13 to 8, before racial mods, arranged to taste.

Im not sure all of the mook hordes are that great. For instance, the cat based ones are fairly useless without the handlers(and probably not fantastic with them), as cats do not naturally compose an army. Pushing animals is considered a full round action. Cats are not big enough to grant cover, nor do they threaten. So, anyone is gonna tear up the squishy handlers, and it all falls apart.

Also, the disadvantage of a swarm army is that you take up a lot of ground. You can't necessarily bring your entire army to bear at once. So...tactics are also important, and will vary substantially depending on army.

Im afraid I really can't justify a squirrel being able to dispense enough oil to create a ten foot wall of fire via his tail, though.

If there ends up being a strong bias in favor of swarm armies, I'd consider using elite array for PC classes, non elite for the rest. This seems reasonable, given that the elite array is meant for players to begin with, and the non-elite is meant for NPCs.

[Fable Wright]

Im afraid I really can't justify a squirrel being able to dispense enough oil to create a ten foot wall of fire via his tail, though.

1. Not a squirrel. A large number of them (think a (herd?) of about 100), side by side, brushing a layer of oil on the ground while being chased by a wolf. Or several wolves. Together, making a 10ft-wide wall of fire.

[Land Outcast]

30 gp for the longbow (All have 4 ranks in craft (bowmaking), 5gp for the tools)Note that even taking 10 (for a result of 14) a character with a +4 modifier can't end a longbow in four weeks: (14 x 12 = 168 sp) x 4 weeks = 672sp; they still fal 78sp behind the full cost of the longbow.

10gp for the warrior 1 with weapon specialization (longbow)
That'd be 9gp (3sp*30=90sp); and I belive you mean Weapon Focus (Longbow)


Cost for a Elven Bard Archer: 30gp, assuming perform (oratory). Nothing else required, as we want to cut unnecessary costs. Feat is Weapon Specialization (Longbow), so costs for equipment as above. Total cost: 61gp. Again the crafting and Feat issue


4 ranks knowledge (nature) (For synergy with wild empathy)
Synergies happen when you reach 5 ranks in a skill.

Just details :)
Oh, and the armies are racially homogeneous, the druid is bound to be an elf.

[Ksheep]

1. Not a squirrel. A large number of them (think a (herd?) of about 100), side by side, brushing a layer of oil on the ground while being chased by a wolf. Or several wolves. Together, making a 10ft-wide wall of fire.

I don't think they'd be able to get enough oil on the ground to make all that big of a fire. Sure, it may be 10 feet wide, but may only be a couple inches high. It's not all that hard to walk through such flames if the troops are well shod. Just don't linger too long and hope that your clothes aren't too flammable.

[Fable Wright]

I don't think they'd be able to get enough oil on the ground to make all that big of a fire. Sure, it may be 10 feet wide, but may only be a couple inches high. It's not all that hard to walk through such flames if the troops are well shod. Just don't linger too long and hope that your clothes aren't too flammable.

Wait, I reread the rules. Druids just camp right there by the line of oil and wait for someone to go on it, before setting it on fire. And this would be multiple lines across the field, mind you. Several shots. Each burning for 2 rounds, for 2d3 damage each. That, and it sets the entanglement on fire for even more damage.

[Yahzi]

You might find this old thread an interesting read:

The Book of Armies (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37056)

I would strongly suggest not allowing crafting, as it's not the point. You want to know what kind of army one gets for a certain resource expenditure, not what kind of weird economic tricks you can stuff into the D&D ruleset.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

I would strongly suggest not allowing crafting, as it's not the point. You want to know what kind of army one gets for a certain resource expenditure, not what kind of weird economic tricks you can stuff into the D&D ruleset.

I really support this idea.
One thought I had was to give one value for hiring, another value for equipment.

[Land Outcast]

I do support the idea of placing an "Army population cap", I mean, I guess we want something of greater sophistication than a 666 mob of commoners armed with clubs, or 222 warriors with quarterstaffs.

Perhaps a simple top of 200? like 200 warriors armed with shortspears?


One thought I had was to give one value for hiring, another value for equipment. this might be an indirect solution to the issue.

--------------------

About crafting: I know we don't account for the ragpickers, or the ones in charge of logistics, but I like the idea of having armorers and weaponsmiths along with the army.

Also, it allows for interesting equipment... at least in my case, both my warbands would be nothing near to what they are if their equipmen has cost triple of how much it did. (exceptions: wine bottle, tindertwig, lamp, and 5 pints of oil... oh, and four smokesticks)

[Temassasin]

i would spend all my money on having as many Kore equipped warriors as possible thats hopefully at least 1 (not even trying the math) i would be unbeatable :smallbiggrin:

[JeminiZero]

Also, the disadvantage of a swarm army is that you take up a lot of ground. You can't necessarily bring your entire army to bear at once. So...tactics are also important, and will vary substantially depending on army.

Thats actually a strong point in favor of the halfling slinger horde. Because they can stack their slingers many lines deep and still be able unleash a rain of stone on their enemies. E.g. If there were 666 slingers arranged 11 ranks deep, The nest result is they are little over 60 squares/300 ft wide which is pretty reasonable for battlefields.

[Yukitsu]

Im not sure all of the mook hordes are that great. For instance, the cat based ones are fairly useless without the handlers(and probably not fantastic with them), as cats do not naturally compose an army. Pushing animals is considered a full round action. Cats are not big enough to grant cover, nor do they threaten. So, anyone is gonna tear up the squishy handlers, and it all falls apart.

Also, the disadvantage of a swarm army is that you take up a lot of ground. You can't necessarily bring your entire army to bear at once. So...tactics are also important, and will vary substantially depending on army.

Im afraid I really can't justify a squirrel being able to dispense enough oil to create a ten foot wall of fire via his tail, though.

If there ends up being a strong bias in favor of swarm armies, I'd consider using elite array for PC classes, non elite for the rest. This seems reasonable, given that the elite array is meant for players to begin with, and the non-elite is meant for NPCs.

I'd like you to consider that a level 1 anything with no gear is going to be facing 10 peasants with clubs. On stats, assuming an AC of 11, they're going to be getting 5 ranged hits in, dealing 5d6 damage with throwing clubs on average per round. 4.5d6 if the PC goes first, and kills one. Even with rocks, you're going to see 5d4, or 12.5 points of damage, which will down pretty much any PC at that level.

You might think that maybe gear can save him, but that splint mail that Jaya likes is worth 66 more guys. He's basically going to get the exact same number of hits on him on natural 20s alone.

[TheStillWind]

10 lvl 1 elven sorcerers with magic missile and tower shields one of them holding a scroll of cloud kill.

or one guy with a scroll of Summon monster VI summon a bralani

but those are not in the spirit of the challenge



Too bad ToB is not available. 30 Crusaders with tower shields, long spears, gauntlets, iron guard's glare, stone bones, crusader's strike would be pretty unbeatable in melee. Tower shields make them immune ranged attacks, until they loose and drop them for melee. Though they get beaten by magic.

[Chuckthedwarf]

A few different units with different tasks in mind.

First of all, 10 halfling clerics (300 g) with Clubs, Tower Shields (300g - although I think Small-sized items cost less) with
Proficiency: Tower Shield feats taken. Obscuring Mist prepared.
Str: 7 (9-2) Dex: 14 (12+2) Con: 11 Wis: 13: Int 8 Cha 10

Followed by 3 Sorcerers (90 g) with Sleep, Color Spray as spells.
Followed by 2 more sorcerers with Obscuring Mist and whatever. (60 g)
Slings and stones and clubs. Feats - whatever.
Str: 11 Dex 14 Con 10 Wis 9 Int 8 Cha 11
Then, 10 halfling rogues with clubs, slings and stones. (300g)
Feat used for whatever.

Then, 20 halfling druids with wolves and Entangle prepared. (600g)
Slings and stones, naturally. Feat used for whatever.
Str: 11 (13-2) Dex: 14 (12+2) Con: 10 Wis: 11 Int:9 Cha:8

The remaining money leave us with about 170 halfling commoners with slings and regular stones to provide cover fire and warm bodies.

Str: 11 Dex: 14 Con: 11 etc...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Battle plan: Assuming it's a plain without any hills, the 10 clerics march side by side with their tower shields. Behind them is a line of rogues. Behind them, sorcerers and druids. The latter possible mounted on their wolves or whatever.

Whenever the enemy is sighted, everyone but the clerics drop prone and start slowly creeping toward the enemy at steady 5 feet per round. Clerics take 5 foot step and hide behind the tower shields.

The enemy would not be able to attack me on the front thanks to tower shields effectively being total cover. So they'd have to maneuver around me - and don't forget, you also can't really attack through someone so if it's 666 halflings with slings only the first few lines could reliably attack.

The rest of the army would space out behind and to the sides and start flinging stones at first opportunity, mainly targeting enemy flanks to discourage them from coming closer. The druid squad watches out for any movement on the flanks, with readied actions to cast Entangle and their animal companions ready to charge.

At some point, hopefully, the classed army reaches ~30 foot vicinity with the enemies. At which point, all of the clerics move forward at their full speed (15 feet most likely) and 2 of them cast Obscuring Mist. (To make it easier, I could have clerics divided into 5 squads ) 0010000100 - 1s are the squad casting it.

The rest of the classed army quickly moves up to be exactly behind them. They're practically invincible for 1 minute, Obscuring Mist limiting all sight to 5 feet. During the next 10 rounds, the cleric, rogue and sorcerer squads move up to the front edge of the mist and clerics, again, take a 5 foot step and hide behind the tower shields, this time in a different formation - with 1 space left "open" between each one. 101010101... (total of 20 squares). The Rogues, using the mist, hide and later ready an action to attack once the mist goes away.

Once the Obscuring Mist runs out, assuming enemies are still in range, the rogues fire, dealing sneak attack damage to 10 people in range. Clerics each take a 5 foot step to the left or the right to be in front of the rogues and hide behind shields.

The commoners continue moving up and firing at the flanks. Druids keep watching the flanks with their animal familiars.

Major weakness: Really slow movement. The opposing army could outrun me any day, but running isn't doing any damage... The damage is fairly limited as well. Clerics, which could be replaced with more martial classes like barbarians if not for the tactical advantages of mist, are there only to be walking walls and for obscuring mist.

Strength: The core of the army is practically invulnerable to most mundane ranged attacks. Offensive hit-and-run attackers in form of druids and their animal companions are available. That and the commoners provide decent defense in case someone tries to flank the core.

[Typewriter]

The hordes are most going to dominate this thing, especially if they are doing any ranged attacks. Commoners only get 1 simple weapon though, and that means that if they all focus on ranged they're not going to be proficient with anything else. Plus, even if they're using slings, they're going to need to spend some money on bullets.

[Chuckthedwarf]

Alternatively, just spend all the money on level 1 warriors, many of them with tower shields. Maybe splice in a few barbarians or fighters or casters, meh.
And maybe 200 or so commoners with slings.

Battle plan: Have a line, or rather a square of warriors with Tower Shields. The next line behind them will be warriors with longspears or any other reach weapon. Maybe 2 lines, in fact. The last line, if you want to be really sure, can be another line of warriors with tower shields.

Do the math to make sure you have enough to make a square or similar formation with tower shields on every side and the next lines after them being filled with warriors with reach weapons.

Fighting tactics: 5 foot step, hide behind shield. Invulnerable to any kind of ranged weapons. The reach weapon line follows closely. Rinse and repeat until the enemies either run out of ammo or you get in melee during which you can either have all the spearers ready an action to attack when the shielders fall prone (free action) or just have your spearers step through their square, and attack with the shielders readying an action to step in front of the spearers once they attack.

This unfortunately still leaves some vulnerability to natural 20s. But then again, what can't you do with a natural 20? Aside from skill rolls and stuff...

Rinse and repeat. The spearers could also have slings to use at range each turn before the shielders take 5 foot step and raise their shields.

[Chuckthedwarf]

The hordes are most going to dominate this thing, especially if they are doing any ranged attacks. Commoners only get 1 simple weapon though, and that means that if they all focus on ranged they're not going to be proficient with anything else. Plus, even if they're using slings, they're going to need to spend some money on bullets.

They can pick up rocks that do like, 1d2 damage, in halflings' case. Or perhaps it's just 1 damage, I'm not sure. I think it's one step down if you're using a stone instead of a bullet with your sling.

And stones are generally free - although I would argue that they would run out at some point...

But, yeah, with the ability to hit anything on a natural 20 with just core available, the easiest and likeliest and frankly most boring way to win is to simply zerg rush them with commoners with slings...

If natural 20 didn't provide an automatical hit, the horde of commoners proficient only in slings could be killed fairly easy even if it would take forever.

Like, small creature with 23+ total AC = invincible. If you're constantly prone, that's 4 AC - so only 19 AC needed. Assuming you're also halfling, wear full plate for 8 AC, and your dexterity modifier of +1 or higher would have completed it. Maybe add a shield for the lulz. And that would only cost you most of the 1500... The rest of the money, buy a light crossbow and as many arrows as you can and simply crawl prone and shoot people with crossbow!

Too bad natural 20 kills it.

[Yukitsu]

Cheaper to use clubs. Free, ranged, melee, two handable etc. Great all around weapon.

[JeminiZero]

Fighting tactics: 5 foot step, hide behind shield. Invulnerable to any kind of ranged weapons. The reach weapon line follows closely.

At this point you are starting to suffer from Dwarven Defender syndrome. :smallwink:

Seriously, you are limited to a 5 ft step each turn, and you have to get in close to kill your enemy. As you approach the halfling slingers, what do you think will happen:

A) Halfling Slinger: Look! The Enemy draws close! Perhaps I shall stand here and continue to hurl rocks at them until they are close enough to stab me with their spears.

OR

B) Halfling Slinger: Wait a minute, if we take a move action every turn, and alternate our standard action between firing and reloading our slings, and we stagger our firing turns such that half of us are firing when the other half are reloading, we can run circles round those turtlers, and pelt them with impunity, while they crawl along at 5 ft per turn.

[Land Outcast]

The hordes are most going to dominate this thing, especially if they are doing any ranged attacks. Commoners only get 1 simple weapon though, and that means that if they all focus on ranged they're not going to be proficient with anything else. Plus, even if they're using slings, they're going to need to spend some money on bullets.
They can always choose "club", and carry around 10 of those big sticks.

But it isn't even necessary, they can always have 333 slingers and 333 clubbers.
Or, if the creator wants two more points of attack bonus and versatility, 222 warriors with weapon focus (club) (Though, admittedly, this one is less overwhelming).

Other thing bothering me, frankly, are the druids' animal companions. They won't dominate, but it itches the fact that it is like getting a free Fighter (with better stats) with your spellcaster.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I'd like to know Tyndmyr's opinion on perhaps updating the rules:
Yukitsu suggested to establish a population cap
Maeglin_Dubh suggested to establish cash expenditure parameters
I'm suggesting to eliminate autohits on natural 20s

[Chuckthedwarf]

Cheaper to use clubs. Free, ranged, melee, two handable etc. Great all around weapon.

The thrown range is kinda crappy though, what is it, 10 feet?

Even at 20 feet, a sling beats it with 50 feet range increments.

So, an army of slingers could continually move away and throw while clubbers would never get close enough to attack with any reasonable accuracy.

Unless you're just going to cross your fingers and pray for a natural 20 and try throwing clubs at absolute max distance possible (like 50 feet if it's 10 feet or 100 feet if it's 20 feet) which is frankly kind of silly.

But then again, when you spam little incapable mooks, that's what it's all about.

[Chuckthedwarf]

At this point you are starting to suffer from Dwarven Defender syndrome. :smallwink:

Seriously, you are limited to a 5 ft step each turn, and you have to get in close to kill your enemy. As you approach the halfling slingers, what do you think will happen:

A) Halfling Slinger: Look! The Enemy draws close! Perhaps I shall stand here and continue to hurl rocks at them until they are close enough to stab me with their spears.

OR

B) Halfling Slinger: Wait a minute, if we take a move action every turn, and alternate our standard action between firing and reloading our slings, and we stagger our firing turns such that half of us are firing when the other half are reloading, we can run circles round those turtlers, and pelt them with impunity, while they crawl along at 5 ft per turn.

Yes, but with that tactic, none of their hits will actually land thanks to total cover.

And they wouldn't be able to damage the shield either.

So, uh, neither side would be able to do any damage...

But my turtlers can hope that at some point, the slingers run out of stones...

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Yes, but with that tactic, none of their hits will actually land thanks to total cover.

And they wouldn't be able to damage the shield either.

So, uh, neither side would be able to do any damage...

But my turtlers can hope that at some point, the slingers run out of stones...

Which is why we need an objective other than 'kill all guys in other uniform'.

In this situation, the army with superior mobility avoids the army with inferior mobility and goes over to torch their town.

[Land Outcast]

B) Halfling Slinger: Wait a minute, if we take a move action every turn, and alternate our standard action between firing and reloading our slings, and we stagger our firing turns such that half of us are firing when the other half are reloading, we can run circles round those turtlers, and pelt them with impunity, while they crawl along at 5 ft per turn.

Perhaps even more amusing: let us hold him!
And off go twenty humanoids... once one of them succesfully grapples the armored creature, all the other grapple checks succeed (to a maximum of 4 grapplers if they are against a creature their same size, double if the creature is bigger, half if smaller), and start trying to deal damage -through grapple checks, not attacks- in the grapple.

Eventually you'll have canned meat.

[JeminiZero]

But it isn't even necessary, they can always have 333 slingers and 333 clubbers.

Splitting your force like that isn't even necessary. Clubs (like Slings) are free. You can have 666 Slingers with Clubs as their backup weapon (maybe swap Weapon Focus Sling for Weapon Prof: Club).

[Land Outcast]

Splitting your force like that isn't even necessary. Clubs (like Slings) are free. You can have 666 Slingers with Clubs as their backup weapon (maybe swap Weapon Focus Sling for Weapon Prof: Club).

Nope, note that the opening post states that commoners have no feats or skills in battle useful things.

Then you could have 666 slingers with clubs, but they'd be at
Sling ranged +3 (1d2), club melee -3 (1d4) [if halflings]

or
Sling ranged +1 (1d3+1), club melee -3 (1d6+1)[if elves]

or
Sling ranged +0 (1d3+2), club melee -2 (1d6+2)[if half-orcs]

[Doug Lampert]

The "pay for all equipment" assumption is unrealistic and is why hordes of commoners are "winning".

If you hire a warrior he comes with reasonable non-consumable gear.

If you hire a craftsman he comes with standard artisan tools.

You hire an unskilled commoner 1, he comes with squat. (Seriously, he can't actually eat on what you're paying him, for that you want gear too.)

If you hire a level 1 PC he comes with standard NPC gear (900 GP! And he gets the elite array), that's what's assumed in his hiring cost. There's no rules in the DMG for hired guys to have less gear.

But he won't use any of HIS precious consumables for YOUR battle.

Hiring a craftsman for 1 month for 9 GP, and having to buy his FULL KIT to have him craft is silly. But even worse is warriors who would rather die than spend their own cash on some body-armor. Historical militias and armies and mercenaries were normally "bring your own gear" affairs, issued military equipment was hideously rare prior to the modern era.

The hiring costs are too low to be paying for rental on the gear, but that's alright, they're WAY TOO LOW in all cases! Most of these guys can do better with untrained craft for hire or with even a single skill point in any profession BtB. The costs are broken, but they assume personal gear. There's simply no rule for an NPC not to have personal gear.

For that matter, the "pay for one month" was originally so you'd have time to muster, organize, and move. Yet now the ENTIRE month is being used to craft additional ****! Soldiers pay doesn't pay for any crafting time, craftsmen's pay doesn't get them to the battlefield where you can use them as extra warm bodies, because the craftsmen are crafting during whatever month you hired them for, not mustering and marching.

If you WANT to spend part of your budget to upgrade gear that should be allowed, but it should be assumed that characters have some amount of personal gear when hired.

[Chuckthedwarf]

Nope, note that the opening post states that commoners have no feats or skills in battle useful things.

Then you could have 666 slingers with clubs, but they'd be at
Sling ranged +4 (1d3), club melee -3 (1d4) [if halflings]

or
Sling ranged +2 (1d4+1), club melee -3 (1d6+1)[if elves]

or
Sling ranged +1 (1d4+2), club melee -2 (1d6+2)[if half-orcs]

I think this also has to be said that halfling's size bonuses would only apply against medium or larger targets.

Considering how popular halflings seem to be here, the +1 size bonus to AC and Attack won't really work - or at least be completely negated.

[JeminiZero]

The "pay for all equipment" assumption is unrealistic and is why hordes of commoners are "winning".

Indeed, if I might suggest the following: Rather than viewing the 2,000 gp as the money you can use to buy an army for a month, why not think of it as such: Given a 2,000 gp monthly stipend, what sort of army could you maintain?

The difference is substantial as 2,000 gp a month over many years can be used to accumulate and sustain a substantial non-consumable equipment payload. Whereas buying brand new stuff to use for just ONE month is comparatively pricey.

Certainly equipment doesn't last forever, so perhaps a new replacement might be needed say... every 25 months or so. As such, the cost to maintain equipment each month should be 1/25th the market value with respect to the 2,000 gp stipend. Then we can ditch hiring craftsmen to make stuff (as the cost for creation/repair/maintainence is included in the maintainence fee).

Note that this is only for non-consumables like armors and shields. Consumables like Oil, Alchimist Fires and Smokesticks (and maybe Arrows and Bolts) should probably be paid at full price from the monthly stipend

[Coidzor]

The hordes are most going to dominate this thing, especially if they are doing any ranged attacks. Commoners only get 1 simple weapon though, and that means that if they all focus on ranged they're not going to be proficient with anything else. Plus, even if they're using slings, they're going to need to spend some money on bullets.

Slings, clubs, and sling stones are free. Sling stones just do less damage per hit compared to metal bullets.

[Shyftir]

Also, if I call my army The Romans, are they allowed to call light?

I just want you to know that somebody got that joke and appreciated it.

[BayardSPSR]

There must be a weapon with longer range than a sling. If this is indeed the case, take warriors with it and mount them. Fight like a Mongol. Assuming no unfavorable terrain, there's practically no way to lose; in the case of unfavorable terrain, retreat and fight another day.

If no weapon has a longer range than a sling... well, I didn't pick the game.

[Telasi]

You can't afford enough horse archers with enough ammunition to kill the hordes being thrown around. The horses are too expensive.

[BayardSPSR]

It'd only take one archer :smallwink: assuming nobody gets tired, and you wouldn't nearly have to kill all of them. Of course, that's assuming that something vaguely similar to morale exist, but I think the OP said it didn't - which is the source of the commoner problem. Realistically, any force made up of 50%+ untrained commoners should run away as soon as they started to take casualties - and don't even get me started on other discipline problems... Let alone economic damage thanks to sending the workforce into combat... Come to think of it, anything mildly realistic. Ultimately, seeing as the circumstances aren't realistic, how could we expect the results to be?


One question, though: just how much does a cheap horse cost?

[Yahzi]

The "pay for all equipment" assumption is unrealistic and is why hordes of commoners are "winning".
Exactly.

I mean, look at the OP: a commoner is cheaper than almost any weapon on the table; my army of commoners can afford to wield other commoners as weapons.

I went into somewhat more detail on The Book of Armies thread, perhaps too much; but this challenge needs a little more definition.

[Telasi]

It'd only take one archer :smallwink: assuming nobody gets tired, and you wouldn't nearly have to kill all of them. Of course, that's assuming that something vaguely similar to morale exist, but I think the OP said it didn't - which is the source of the commoner problem. Realistically, any force made up of 50%+ untrained commoners should run away as soon as they started to take casualties - and don't even get me started on other discipline problems... Let alone economic damage thanks to sending the workforce into combat... Come to think of it, anything mildly realistic. Ultimately, seeing as the circumstances aren't realistic, how could we expect the results to be?


One question, though: just how much does a cheap horse cost?

Yeah, well, morale isn't being factored in here. :smallfrown:

The cheap horse that doesn't require a DC20 check to control once init is rolled costs 150 gp. If you're small, you could get warponies, but then you take -4 or -8 to hit with your ranged weapons from lack of feats.

[The Deej]

You can't afford enough horse archers with enough ammunition to kill the hordes being thrown around. The horses are too expensive.

Mule cavalry!

Seriously. PHB/SRD explicitly says that they are willing to go into dangerous situations, and it's not that much of a stretch to say that the mules are trained to be ridden since that has been done in real life almost as long as we have been breeding them.

edit:



Warrior w/sling, club, and bullets - 9.1gp
mule - 8gp
bit and bridle - 2gp
riding saddle - 10gp
total cost of mule cavalryman: 29.1gp

warriors take either mounted combat or WF(sling), plus ranks in ride and handle animal.

2000gp can afford a force of 68 of these.

[BayardSPSR]

Yeah, well, morale isn't being factored in here. :smallfrown:

The cheap horse that doesn't require a DC20 check to control once init is rolled costs 150 gp. If you're small, you could get warponies, but then you take -4 or -8 to hit with your ranged weapons from lack of feats.

Hm. 150 isn't too bad... I'm going to assume you could get a mounted archer with sufficient arrows for 200-250, then? Including a long-range weapon, of course; cheaper than that if a couple crafters are thrown in.

Is there any way to take ranks in husbandry or stud farming or something? That'd save a lot.

If it's impossible to afford enough arrows to wipe out the horde... okay. Shoot until you're out of arrows, retreating all the while, then just ride off and never come back. Even as little as 10-20% casualties for none in return is a resounding victory.



Oh, and that lack of morale ALSO means that there's no allowance whatsoever for the fact that the majority of casualties in medieval battles were taken AFTER one army had broken and started to run away... Hell, in reality morale is practically the beginning and the end of the deciding factor (special circumstances and completely overwhelming force notwithstanding). Look at Vietnam.

[Tyndmyr]

I don't think they'd be able to get enough oil on the ground to make all that big of a fire. Sure, it may be 10 feet wide, but may only be a couple inches high. It's not all that hard to walk through such flames if the troops are well shod. Just don't linger too long and hope that your clothes aren't too flammable.

That and there's the assumption of neutral battlefield. Neither party gets time to prep the battlefield beforehand. So, any such actions have to be taken while the other army is there, albeit with some distance between you.

By raw, one flask of oil covers a 5 ft square. As long as you come up with a plausible way to distribute them in that concentration(btw, throwing is remarkably easy), you can then light them on fire. However, be aware that by RAW, they only burn for two rounds before going out. Throwing more oil on the fire would extend this time proportionately, but again, by RAW, the oil fire only deals 1d3 damage.

[druid91]

Numbers are a factor, sure, but again, you might be able to modify that with crafting.

Weekly crafting is better? Fair enough. I didn't compare math between them, use whichever you prefer, as both daily and weekly are legit.

Nonelite array can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm). Basically stats ranging from 13 to 8, before racial mods, arranged to taste.

Im not sure all of the mook hordes are that great. For instance, the cat based ones are fairly useless without the handlers(and probably not fantastic with them), as cats do not naturally compose an army. Pushing animals is considered a full round action. Cats are not big enough to grant cover, nor do they threaten. So, anyone is gonna tear up the squishy handlers, and it all falls apart.

Also, the disadvantage of a swarm army is that you take up a lot of ground. You can't necessarily bring your entire army to bear at once. So...tactics are also important, and will vary substantially depending on army.

Im afraid I really can't justify a squirrel being able to dispense enough oil to create a ten foot wall of fire via his tail, though.

If there ends up being a strong bias in favor of swarm armies, I'd consider using elite array for PC classes, non elite for the rest. This seems reasonable, given that the elite array is meant for players to begin with, and the non-elite is meant for NPCs.

Well, I could always simply make an army of awakened cat rogues.

Meaning 66 Cats for the cost of 1980 gp. We lose the numbers advantage (that we never really had). And in exchange we now have tiny furry Raptors. We could own city fighting, and grasslands would be ours. Now deserts might prove a problem, and any other similar open field without cover.

[Tyndmyr]

I just want you to know that somebody got that joke and appreciated it.

Oh, I play Dag, I got it. =)



I'd like to know Tyndmyr's opinion on perhaps updating the rules:

* Yukitsu suggested to establish a population cap
* Maeglin_Dubh suggested to establish cash expenditure parameters
* I'm suggesting to eliminate autohits on natural 20s


This is good, I needed a few ideas before I was ready to start recruiting.

I'm open to either a population cap or a cash expenditure limit on troops. In fact, the maintaining idea sounds interesting, as it would probably get a better long term representation of armies. Presumably, to simulate that, non-consumable equipment would be at a discount.

I would prefer not to eliminate autohits on nat 20s, since that's a significant part of D&D. However, I will point out that if you have 11 ranks of slingers, most ranks are not going to have LOS to the target.

Extrapolating from the rules from one shots, in which consumables cost 10x as much...we can go the other way. Non-consumables only cost 10% of their normal prices, because they last for much longer than a single month. With that, we can probably dispense with the added math of crafting.

The Book of Armies gives me a number of ideas, some of which I had before, but was worried they'd be too complex for play.

1. A single, free, level 2 PC class for everyone, that is their leader.

2. Allowing SBG(obviously, at non-consumable prices). This gives clear objectives for battles. Take the other guys' castles.

3. Persistent armies between battles. Survivors get xp for what they killed. Dead stay dead. A set amount of gold per month. Failing to hold your castle results in a steep gold reduction.


As for the morale issue, is there a morale system within D&D that works well for the wild variety of things we can expect in this?

[Darth Stabber]

Looks solid. However the DMG does specify "untrained" commoners for the lower price, which I take to mean lacking in any skills, or feats that would be at all helpful.


If peasents are making any kind of living in an Pre-Renaissance setting, they would have either Profession(farming) or Handle animal (or both if their int supports it). I don't think it would be unreasonable for them to have either skill focus or animal affinity as their feat, in fact it would be unreasonable for them to have a combat-centric feat. Since handle animal is more useful than farming, I would build an army of Orcish shepards, stable boys and ranch hands. While Orcish shepard seems silly, it makes more sense than Warforged shepard.

[JeminiZero]

The cheap horse that doesn't require a DC20 check to control once init is rolled costs 150 gp.

Want to know something funny? A Heavy Warhorse is 400 gp (or 40 gp under the 1/10th for non-consumable regime). A Druid with a Heavy Horse Animal Companion (which the Druid can automaticaly train to be war proficient) on the other hand costs 30 gp.

So if you want to field Calvary, your best bet is to hire a bunch of Druids. You can get Heavy Warhorses at a substantial discount compared to market value (the Druid can choose to either ride his own companion, or order it to obey another rider if you want mounted warriors or something instead), AND a tier 1 caster thrown in for free.

[Tyndmyr]

Well, the one example of an untrained commoner I'm aware of is the boy with no skill ranks that acts as an assistant to a craftsman via aid another.

Untrained commoners don't represent everyone...most people have skill ranks in what they use to get by. However, they would then be considered craftsmen since they are skilled at a craft.

[druid91]

1. A single, free, level 2 PC class for everyone, that is their leader.

2. Allowing SBG(obviously, at non-consumable prices). This gives clear objectives for battles. Take the other guys' castles.

3. Persistent armies between battles. Survivors get xp for what they killed. Dead stay dead. A set amount of gold per month. Failing to hold your castle results in a steep gold reduction.


1. I like this.

2. Just for confirmation, Stronghold builders guide? And what about building something aside from a castle? What about multiple mini-forts?

3. Also like, But to confirm, the slain may be replaced? As in say my guild of 66 cat ninja-thieves, starts fighting the invading halflings, the halflings are driven off by hit and run warfare, but the cats take massive casualties.

So say 10 are left, they gain XP, then with my gold I can hire another 56 Cat rogues?

[Tyndmyr]

2. Just for confirmation, Stronghold builders guide? And what about building something aside from a castle? What about multiple mini-forts?

SBG is pretty flexible. You could build a market square if you wanted. Probably not optimal, but you could. In the case of multiple buildings, you would presumably designate one of them as your hq. If you wanted say, archers towers around it, that's reasonable.


3. Also like, But to confirm, the slain may be replaced? As in say my guild of 66 cat ninja-thieves, starts fighting the invading halflings, the halflings are driven off by hit and run warfare, but the cats take massive casualties.

So say 10 are left, they gain XP, then with my gold I can hire another 56 Cat rogues?

I'd say yeah. New hires are level 1. New equipment is purchased at full price, but equipment is fairly static. Loot it off the bodies, and good to go. Unless someone is sunder-happy, equipment should pretty much just stick around.

[super dark33]

Can i make an ''Allience'' (Humens+Elves+Dwarves) or Horde (Orcs+Goblins+Hobgoblins) army?

[druid91]

Can i make an ''Allience'' (Humens+Elves+Dwarves) or Horde (Orcs+Goblins+Hobgoblins) army?

Why wouldn't you?:smallconfused:

Also, in this will there be any way to expand income? Aside from looting enemy corpses and selling their stuff?

[Typewriter]

I think race restrictions might need to be enforced/modified.

If people are talking about gettin awakened animals shouldn't that mean they have to pay for th awakening to be cast, and then to hire them? And what's the basis for animals we're using? CR <= 1? If so I switch my entire army to small animated constructs whom all get 1d10+10 HP....

Plus, what are our keeps going to be like? Custom built by each person? Do we need to simply get inside, or force the opponent to flee. If my keep is a solid stone box with murder holes all around the inner courtyard it's going to be a bit rough to take over, etc. etc.

There's a lot of unknown variables that could cause some serious mayhem...

[Typewriter]

Why wouldn't you?:smallconfused:

Also, in this will there be any way to expand income? Aside from looting enemy corpses and selling their stuff?

The first post specifies that your army is a single race.

[Tyndmyr]

I think race restrictions might need to be enforced/modified.

If people are talking about gettin awakened animals shouldn't that mean they have to pay for th awakening to be cast, and then to hire them? And what's the basis for animals we're using? CR <= 1? If so I switch my entire army to small animated constructs whom all get 1d10+10 HP....

I presumed the awakenings were being handled by purchasing casters...but yeah, either you need to get the casters, or pay for spells individually. Cats, by default, don't come awakened.


Plus, what are our keeps going to be like? Custom built by each person? Do we need to simply get inside, or force the opponent to flee. If my keep is a solid stone box with murder holes all around the inner courtyard it's going to be a bit rough to take over, etc. etc.

I would presume that to take it, you need to kill or capture the troops inside. It's not taken until you beat them. Since incomes only monthly, that shouldn't be an issue mid-battle.

I see people custom building their own. SBG has a great deal of options for that, but it's fairly easy to quickly add up lots of expense if you're not careful.


There's a lot of unknown variables that could cause some serious mayhem...

Yeah. Actually, that's the whole reason for this thread. If I had all the loopholes plugged, I woulda jumped straight to recruiting.

[Typewriter]

Yeah, I don't think people are paying for the awaken.

Fifth level spell, so caster level 9 so 9x50, for 450 gold
Plus 250 xp, so 250 x 5, for another 1250

Each awakened animal would cost 1700 Gold. Meaning you could afford one(of any class!) :P

[druid91]

I presumed the awakenings were being handled by purchasing casters...but yeah, either you need to get the casters, or pay for spells individually. Cats, by default, don't come awakened.



I would presume that to take it, you need to kill or capture the troops inside. It's not taken until you beat them. Since incomes only monthly, that shouldn't be an issue mid-battle.

I see people custom building their own. SBG has a great deal of options for that, but it's fairly easy to quickly add up lots of expense if you're not careful.



Yeah. Actually, that's the whole reason for this thread. If I had all the loopholes plugged, I woulda jumped straight to recruiting.

The leader was going to be a caster, unfortunately this wouldn't help much as awaken is a 5th level spell.

Would kobolds be acceptable? Slight build would mean they can fit into places the cats would. At least at first, until I can pay to awaken the cats. Besides the kobolds would be useful for door opening.

Question would auto resetting traps count as non-consumables? A tippy-esque, trap of awaken would be handy in amassing the cat horde.

[Crossblade]

66 Sorcerers level 1, 11 Cha. So they can cast a max of 3 Magic Missile, all their familiars will be cats!
2 adepts if only for the healing (assuming 9 gp each, because they're an NPC class like expert and warrior), because hey, why not?
Everyone is human and has Improved Initiative and Toughness as feats.
Everyone has ranks in Heal maxed, so that those standing after using their 3MM stabilize the wounded, who then cast while prone, thus causing them to bleed again, and get attempted to stabilize again.

At that point, it goes to looting the fallens' weapons to try and mop up.

And the last 2 shiny gp go to buying 10 gallons of ale for the victory.


Alternatively, what's the cost for an army of House Cats? Or how many cats can a commoner control with 4 Handle Animal?
Because 666 Commoners with Unarmed Strike and Improved Initiative + (666 times #) house cats would win the turn economy.

[Tyndmyr]

Can i make an ''Allience'' (Humens+Elves+Dwarves) or Horde (Orcs+Goblins+Hobgoblins) army?

While those are fairly fluffy groupings, the restriction to a single race was for a mixture of simplicity and realism. Otherwise, there'll be armies that look suspiciously like a very large adventuring party, with each race doing only what it's best at. This doesn't match up very well with the descriptions in D&D, really. Multicultural cities do exist, but they tend to be planar metropolises.

Kobolds are fine, but they are DMG kobolds since we're in core, and lack the goodies from online, RoTD, etc.

Repeating traps are a thorny issue. The idea of a tippyverse-like machine that cranks out soldiers is, while interesting, a little problematic for a situation like this. I don't want to cut out magic traps entirely, but I don't want it to be a simple case of who has the most of them, all autorepeating for eternity. That's not a lotta fun.

I think we might have to do separate starting budgets. Ignore the earlier modifiers.

10k gold for the castle. This is to be spent on rooms, traps, etc at list price.
10k gold for initial equipment.
1k gold for initial wages.

Base monthly income: 500g/month.
Monthly income if you hold a castle: 1000g/month.

Edit: Yes, familiars are a legit way to get cats. However, handling untrained animals counts as forcing. So...full round actions for a commoner to handle a single one. In general, untrained cats are not an effective army.

[druid91]

Hmmm The ninjas of the neko clan will complete their goal of world conquest!

For simplicity a mixture of Halfling rogues and sorcerers, since the kobolds don't get slight build. A halfling can squeeze their way through the pipes I plan on using for the cats.. Eventually the cats will replace the Halflings except as spies and door openers.

[Lord_Gareth]

Bonus points to anyone that can successfully make a Dvati army. No, it's not rules-legal, but don't tell me it wouldn't be awesome.

[dspeyer]

The air force:

Each air force soldier is a halfling sorcerer with a trained eagle mount. One of his spells is reduce person, which he casts on himself before mounting and whenever he's on the mount and the spell will soon run out. His other spell could be magic missle, burning hands, or whatever else seems useful (he may not get many chances to cast it though). Mostly, offense is via slings, alchemists fire, or dropping mundane rocks and torches. Defense is by being too high to hit.

The most RAW way to get the eagles is as animal companions of an equal number of druids. The druids then stay on the ground casting obscuring mist and entangle, or stay home having provided lots of goodberries.

A much cheaper way would be to have commoners raise the eagles from eggs (they're 1hd). The problem is that eagle eggs have no listed price. How difficult is it to find an eagle's nest, wait until the eagle is away and steal the eggs? Could a commoner do it? An expert? How long would it take? It ought to be possible, but there isn't any RAW for it.

[Typewriter]

The air force:

Each air force soldier is a halfling sorcerer with a trained eagle mount. One of his spells is reduce person, which he casts on himself before mounting and whenever he's on the mount and the spell will soon run out. His other spell could be magic missle, burning hands, or whatever else seems useful (he may not get many chances to cast it though). Mostly, offense is via slings, alchemists fire, or dropping mundane rocks and torches. Defense is by being too high to hit.

The most RAW way to get the eagles is as animal companions of an equal number of druids. The druids then stay on the ground casting obscuring mist and entangle, or stay home having provided lots of goodberries.

A much cheaper way would be to have commoners raise the eagles from eggs (they're 1hd). The problem is that eagle eggs have no listed price. How difficult is it to find an eagle's nest, wait until the eagle is away and steal the eggs? Could a commoner do it? An expert? How long would it take? It ought to be possible, but there isn't any RAW for it.

Keep in mind that reduce person is 1 minute per level, so you'd have 10 rounds from takeoff to touchdown. Ranged attacks against you are going to suck, and if you fly too high you're going to have huge penalties to your thrown/dropped items. Isn't it -2 per range increment, and for thrown items that's 10 feet? That means that you could go up to 100 feet away, and attack with a -20, where as sling wielders would be at 2 range increments away, attacking you with a -2.

[Land Outcast]

I think we might have to do separate starting budgets. Ignore the earlier modifiers.

10k gold for the castle. This is to be spent on rooms, traps, etc at list price.
10k gold for initial equipment.
1k gold for initial wages.

Base monthly income: 500g/month.
Monthly income if you hold a castle: 1000g/month.

Ooook...

Are the castles just "battle forts" or are they supposed to house the troops?
Are the castles on a featureless plain again?
Craftsmen are off now then, aren't they?
Are we allowed to buy siege weapons?

This will take more time... is the SBG online? I'm guessing not :(

Note: You could always say the natural 20 autohit works only for PC classes. By the way, PC classes with elite or nonelite array?

Note2: I like the thing about 1k wages in that it reduces the Caster+Companion issue.

[Tyndmyr]

Well, magic missile does avoid the penalty entirely, though. Plus, it is an awesome mental image.

There is still the problem of volume fire, but honestly, magic missile has a solid range. I would peg the magic missiles as being more lethal than the return fire...until the spells ran out. That's the limitation. At level one, with reduce person also being a requirement, I could see burning through your spells fairly rapidly.

Thrown weapons are limited to 5 range increments, so they would easily be immune to thrown clubs and the like.

[Typewriter]

Ooook...

Are the castles just "battle forts" or are they supposed to house the troops?
Are the castles on a featureless plain again?
Craftsmen are off now then, aren't they?
Are we allowed to buy siege weapons?

This will take more time... is the SBG online? I'm guessing not :(

Note: You could always say the natural 20 autohit works only for PC classes. By the way, PC classes with elite or nonelite array?

Note2: I like the thing about 1k wages in that it reduces the Caster+Companion issue.

It could also be ruled that if you have a class feature that creates an extra unit it has to be paid for. Considering the fact that the only features your average warrior or fighter has is their equipment removing their wealth, yet allowing casters to have their pets at no cost seems unfair.

Even charging against them like unskilled commoners would be something. After all, they're extra mouths to feed.

EDIT:
Removed an incorrect statement

[Tyndmyr]

Ooook...

Are the castles just "battle forts" or are they supposed to house the troops?

Basically, battle forts, with enough storage for the military stuff you have. Presumably, you'll want enough space to house whoever is the garrison actually inside the castle.

For the creatively minded, yes, you do need some way for your troops to enter and exit the castle.


Are the castles on a featureless plain again?

Open plain by default. However, ways do exist to modify this.


Craftsmen are off now then, aren't they?

Afraid so. I like the image, but it basically led to an advantage for whoever wanted to do lotsa math. Not sure it adds much to it.


Are we allowed to buy siege weapons?

Well, waddya know, seige engines are in the SRD. Sure. Makes sense with castles.


This will take more time... is the SBG online? I'm guessing not :([quote]

Afraid not. I don't mind a bit of helping people out who don't have it, though. There might be programs online to help with this, Im not sure, really.

[quote]Note: You could always say the natural 20 autohit works only for PC classes. By the way, PC classes with elite or nonelite array?

Note2: I like the thing about 1k wages in that it reduces the Caster+Companion issue.

Give PC classes elite array, I suppose. It makes the difference between adept and actual classes more pronounced.

Also, warrior and fighter do have some advantages. BaB is the obvious one. For fighter, the extra feat is also of significant use. Keep in mind that in a more persistent world, losing your familiar is fairly unfortunate for a caster. Sure, you can always hire new casters...but they won't have any xp or so forth.

[Land Outcast]

Each air force soldier is a halfling sorcerer with a trained eagle mount.

The most RAW way to get the eagles is as animal companions of an equal number of druids.
Love the idea, but there are several efficiency problems:

with this is that you end up with 16 sorcerers and 16 druids.

16 halfling sorcerers won't win any battle whatsoever, be it by hp or by maximum damage output.

A hit to the eagle and our brave halflings have to make ride checks.

[Land Outcast]

Afraid not. I don't mind a bit of helping people out who don't have it, though. There might be programs online to help with this, Im not sure, really.

Yes! You just reminded me of Castleforge 2.0 (by Don John Macabuag)
It's at the HeroForge 3.5 and Variants File Repository (http://www.nzcomputers.net/heroforge/default35.asp)
I'm not sure how precise it is, but it sure helps with pricing


You might put this link on the first post, along with the rules changes

[Doug Lampert]

Well, the one example of an untrained commoner I'm aware of is the boy with no skill ranks that acts as an assistant to a craftsman via aid another.

Untrained commoners don't represent everyone...most people have skill ranks in what they use to get by. However, they would then be considered craftsmen since they are skilled at a craft.

Or rather than taking craft they could be professionals (probably true for anyone with a higher wis score than int). 1 Rank in profession and you can take ten for five or so GP a week or so. Even a three Int half orc gets at least 4 skill ranks at level one. If he's a commoner what's he spending those on that's NOT a way to earn a living?

And if that three int half-orc notices that craft can be used untrained, and that craft for hire gets paid, then he can get 3 GP/week by working as a craftsman according to the PHB RAW (that's after taking into account his -4 skill modifier).

So untrained commoner either means someone too stupid to realize that craft is usable untrained, someone who needs day labor rather than a weeks job (say a wandering vagabond adventurer who's unable to commit to that long), or it means someone not being paid at full value.

Most untrained labor is probably something like a teenager hired to babysit, a grandmother helping out in the house, the kid next door hired to do a chore, an apprentice who's main compensation comes in a bit of training given during the task, ext....

1 sp per day isn't a living wage, it HAS to be a suplement to income rather than the entire income. And kids and old people are the ones who can manage without a living wage, because someone else handles the actual "getting enough to eat" part.

[Typewriter]

Or rather than taking craft they could be professionals (probably true for anyone with a higher wis score than int). 1 Rank in profession and you can take ten for five or so GP a week or so. Even a three Int half orc gets at least 4 skill ranks at level one. If he's a commoner what's he spending those on that's NOT a way to earn a living?

And if that three int half-orc notices that craft can be used untrained, and that craft for hire gets paid, then he can get 3 GP/week by working as a craftsman according to the PHB RAW (that's after taking into account his -4 skill modifier).

So untrained commoner either means someone too stupid to realize that craft is usable untrained, someone who needs day labor rather than a weeks job (say a wandering vagabond adventurer who's unable to commit to that long), or it means someone not being paid at full value.

Most untrained labor is probably something like a teenager hired to babysit, a grandmother helping out in the house, the kid next door hired to do a chore, an apprentice who's main compensation comes in a bit of training given during the task, ext....

1 sp per day isn't a living wage, it HAS to be a suplement to income rather than the entire income. And kids and old people are the ones who can manage without a living wage, because someone else handles the actual "getting enough to eat" part.

I believe that the DMG says that commoners have are considered unskilled. They may have skills, but you're not hiring them for those skills. If you are then you pay them the appropriate value.

[Darth Stabber]

Fine then I will give up on the Orcs having trained animals. (It was only a bonus anyway, the real strategy was just Green Tide).

If there is no cap on warm bodies, I would believe that 666 X would probably be the ideal strategy, where as you could only get 222 trained warriors, and I doubt that 1 trained warrior = 3 bodies. It's just a matter of figuring out the ideal X is (race + either slings or clubs {commoners are proficient with 1 simple weapon, and their accuracy is bad enough that they don't need a non-proficiency penalty on top of that [although you just have to suck it up when your rock throwers get into melee (provoking AoOs is bad)]}) (nested parenthetical asides FTW).

If there is a cap on warm bodies, then strategy comes into play. 200 seems appropriate, as this would mean that warriors are the default, and pc classes and/or itemization comes into play.


Note on commoner mobs:
If you add a different weapon then you must over come the following factor.

A commoner with a free weapon is 3gp per month. every three gold worth of equipment has to be better than another warm body.

Example: if you wanted to give them a 3 gold weapon, it would have to make them as effective as 2 with the free one.

Good Xs
Halfling Rock Chuckers (pidly damage{1d2 if you don't buy bullets}, but hard to hit, better accuracy and they have range)
Orc Clubbers (fair damage (1d4+3), easy to hit, melee only)

If I could mix races I think about 2 orcs per halfling would be a good arrangement.


Now if we open up other books, Warforged win hard

[The Winter King]

Well, waddya know, seige engines are in the SRD. Sure. Makes sense with castles.

So anything in the srd is game? barring cheese like bloodlines and recharge casting of course :)

And if we use other books, Dragon Shamans. Just saying they would be nice to have as well as many things from HoB

[Tyndmyr]

So anything in the srd is game? barring cheese like bloodlines and recharge casting of course :)

I just added the seige engines themselves to the allowed list, not the entire SRD.

However, I am open to suggestions for allowed books that are not likely to wildly skew the balance. Warforged would likely skew things terribly. I'd prefer non setting specific stuff as well.

[Darth Stabber]

Warforged would certainly skew things.

Unskill warforged commoner
Take his one proficiency in sling
Prioritize Str>Dex>Con
Free armor, Free Weapon

Chuck rocks until in melee range, then slam away.
Slightly worse than an orc clubber or halfling thrower at their specialty, but does both easily and without non-prof penalties, and with a better AC to boot.

Now if we avoid the cheese of making them commoners, and have warforged warriors instead, They still get free armor, and a free weapon, meaning they only need a couple javelin to back it up. (though I would be tempted to give them greatclubs just for giggles)

[druid91]

Personally I'd suggest something like Sandstorm. Personally because shapesand is amazing.

[Tyndmyr]

I'll dig through it...I don't recall it having any race/classes that were terribly imbalanced.

I also don't recall Tome of Magic having any issues, and I was just browsing that two days ago. Any objections to adding it?

[Land Outcast]

I'd say the more material the better...

But there's a caveat: if we find a race/feat/item/class/spell which is a Oh-my-god-all-my-soldiers-must-have-this, perhaps its allowance would have to be reconsidered.

For the commoner-crazy people out there:
Remember a commoner has 4hp, they *could* get 5hp but it'd mean having no ability bonus for either melee or ranged.

[Tyndmyr]

There's also the lack of proficiencies. Not bad if your goal is just to get lucky 20s, but the fact that you only get one simple proficiency means you can't be proficient with both club and sling.

So, yeah...the commoner swarm is still possible, but you're likely to lose a fair amount even on a victory.

[Typewriter]

There's also the lack of proficiencies. Not bad if your goal is just to get lucky 20s, but the fact that you only get one simple proficiency means you can't be proficient with both club and sling.

So, yeah...the commoner swarm is still possible, but you're likely to lose a fair amount even on a victory.

Yeah, but there's no penalty for losing troops, which means that if you swarm over a good unit of 50 and kill them all, but lose half your forces, you won, you get more money, and you get to pick the corpses clean.

Perhaps a life insurance policy should be in affect. For every troop you lose in battle you must pay the grieving family a set amount of gold. 3? 5? That way retreating and/or surrender will be a potential option. That and swarming now means that your heavy losses are not simply recouped in your next pay check.

EDIT: And keep in mind if you have 333 commoners throw a single club you're likely going to take out a substantial amount of your opposition.

If your going against an average AC of 16 and you have +1 to hit, and +1 damage, you have a 25% chance of hitting and dealing an average of 4.5 points of damage.

That means you have, on average, 83 hits.

[Telasi]

Perhaps a life insurance policy should be in affect. For every troop you lose in battle you must pay the grieving family a set amount of gold. 3? 5? That way retreating and/or surrender will be a potential option. That and swarming now means that your heavy losses are not simply recouped in your next pay check.

Actually, that's a good idea. It means that you have to consider the cost of taking casualties, and it makes the untrained, unprotected commoner hordes an expensive long-term option.

Also, can we just ban all this silly cat spam and similar ideas? I was under the impression that this was a fairly serious exercise about building a viable army suitable to a small D&D kingdom.

[Tyndmyr]

Yeah, but there's no penalty for losing troops, which means that if you swarm over a good unit of 50 and kill them all, but lose half your forces, you won, you get more money, and you get to pick the corpses clean.

Perhaps a life insurance policy should be in affect. For every troop you lose in battle you must pay the grieving family a set amount of gold. 3? 5? That way retreating and/or surrender will be a potential option. That and swarming now means that your heavy losses are not simply recouped in your next pay check.

EDIT: And keep in mind if you have 333 commoners throw a single club you're likely going to take out a substantial amount of your opposition.

If your going against an average AC of 16 and you have +1 to hit, and +1 damage, you have a 25% chance of hitting and dealing an average of 4.5 points of damage.

That means you have, on average, 83 hits.

Well, here's the thing. There's no way you're gonna get 333 commoners within ten feet of a target to throw clubs. The range penalties add up quick, as do the cover penalties. Range is a -2, with only a ten foot increment, and cover...like a single rank in the way...is a -4. Likewise, without precise shot, firing into melee is going to be a fail. You're almost immediately hitting on a 20, which nets you an average of 16.65 hits...which is pretty terrible for that number of people.

A thrown club does what, 1d6 for a medium? So, that's an average of 4.5 dmg even with a +1 str. So, you need about three hits to down a single warrior.

Conversely, every warrior hit with an actual weapon is nearly guaranteed to down these 4 hp commoners, and having actual weapon proficiencies, feats to use, and targeting pretty squishy commoners, they'll be making giant piles of bodies. Once they get locked into combat, the amount of commoners able to even see them to target them will be sharply limited.

I don't deny that swarm has a place...but I see them being used as flankers, screeners, etc. After all, you've got a separate equipment budget. You might as well use it.

[Typewriter]

Also, can we just ban all this silly cat spam and similar ideas? I was under the impression that this was a fairly serious exercise about building a viable army suitable to a small D&D kingdom.

I don't know Tyndmyrs goal, but in the thread that spawned this, one of the arguments was about whether or not armies would all inevitably wind up focusing on the exact same strategies and builds regardless of setting.

[Tyndmyr]

Actually, that's a good idea. It means that you have to consider the cost of taking casualties, and it makes the untrained, unprotected commoner hordes an expensive long-term option.

Also, can we just ban all this silly cat spam and similar ideas? I was under the impression that this was a fairly serious exercise about building a viable army suitable to a small D&D kingdom.

Actually, I see pure commoner spam suffering in a different way. You're unlikely to get a great deal of kills with any given commoner. It will be immensely difficult for the commoners to level up. This is one reason the campaign is better. Sure, you might be able to take in enough gold to replace your losses, much like a barbarian horde...but you're not actually improving. Imagine when they're facing things with two PC levels. That's a bad day.

I don't mind the cat spam ideas, so long as they pay the costs. I suspect those armies will mostly die horrifically anyhow. Cats are not actually that fearsome. For one thing, they have 2 hp each. Just about anything at all will end them. For another, they have terrible damage.

[Ksheep]

Quick thought: Item discounts for different races. For instance, possibly have metal weapons at a slight discount for Dwarven armies, bows and wooden items at a discount for elves, alchemical item discount for gnomes, etc. Gives another aspect to think about when choosing the race for your army. Doesn't have to be anything too big, maybe just 5-10%. Just a thought.

[Tyndmyr]

Thats not a bad idea, to reflect racial crafting proficiencies and the like. Im not certain it's worth the additional math, but it's certainly a possibility. I'll wait and see if others like it before deciding, I think.

[Land Outcast]

I don't mind the cat spam ideas, so long as they pay the costs. I suspect those armies will mostly die horrifically anyhow. Cats are not actually that fearsome. For one thing, they have 2 hp each. Just about anything at all will end them. For another, they have terrible damage.
Besides... sorcerers get a 200xp hit when losing their familiar (and will need -while still in your service- 100gp to replace it).


Quick thought: Item discounts for different races. For instance, possibly have metal weapons at a slight discount for Dwarven armies, bows and wooden items at a discount for elves, alchemical item discount for gnomes, etc. Gives another aspect to think about when choosing the race for your army. Doesn't have to be anything too big, maybe just 5-10%. Just a thought.
I'm all for it, with the 10% discount. Whatever thing makes possible differentiations by race.

[Tvtyrant]

Actually the commoner swarm is fairly effective if you make them in a series of hollow squares:

aaaa
a a
a a
aaaa

Because all members of the square are within ranged weapon distance from each other. Then you just make the squares each 50ft. apart and the enemy has to deal with each square at a time. As for the leveling process, remember that if you lose the majority of your commoners all of the XP goes to the living, so they would actually level at a relatively fast rate. Give them PC levels (archer types) and then replenish some of the horde to act as a screen. Rinse and repeat.

[druid91]

Which raises the question. would they get an increase in pay for gaining PC levels?

[Tyndmyr]

You only get xp for encounters you defeat though. So, if commoner squad A manages to kill a few warriors, then entirely die off themselves...that xp didn't really help anyone.

Im certainly willing to split xp between survivors of a squad, but I dislike the idea of an entire battle being one encounter. It allows crazy tactics like keeping characters way in the back, out of combat, to feed them xp. That really doesn't make a great deal of sense and seems to go against the usual definition of encounter.

I suspect we'll have to define what a unit is. Does this sound reasonable?

A unit would be...a group of 2+ identically built characters. Equipment need not be identical, as otherwise disarms/sunders/looting will result in silliness.

A unit will be in close proximity(No more than 10 feet apart from each other). If due to casualties, etc, they become more than 10 feet apart, they must either move into range on their next turn, or be split into multiple squads.

A squad's xp for their kills is divided evenly among the squad survivors at the end of every battle. Xp is determined by calculating kills individually via squad level vs target level. IE, if a level 2 squad kills two CR 3 opponents, XP is awarded as per a level 2 player killing two individual level 3 monsters.

Squad vs squad fire. Ranged attacks vs another squad are rolled en masse, to save time. Hits are applied in the order they are rolled, first to any wounded characters, until they are dead, then randomized among the living. IE, a squad of archers scoring hits of 2 dmg, 5 dmg, 3 dmg, and 4 dmg on a squad with three people, one with 3 hp remaining, and the other two healthy would apply the first two hits to the wounded character, killing him, and randomly applying the other two. Killing off wounded characters first approximates normal tactics, and reduces the amount of hp tracking.


Anything else need to get covered for that? Nobody would *have* to use squads, but rolling for each character would be a bit ridiculous.


As for increased pay with leveling...good question. Hadn't considered it. I suppose in this instance, I would lean toward making all level 2+ chars paid at the PC class rate, since leveling should be a purely good thing. If the level 2 leader dies, you can nominate one other character to be a freebie, as presumably he takes over the army.

[Squally!]

This looks very interesting! once the rules are fully fleshed out, id be all for setting up a keep and army of my own.

And while the swarms are cool, human warriors with power attack and cleave? (would that work?) Potentially killing 2 commoners a turn.

I dont know, going to keep a close eye here and work on an army for this, looks awesome!

[The Deej]

Question: If the entirety of an army's NPC forces levels up, but takes another level in their respective NPC classes, should their pay remain the same, or should their pay be upgraded to that of a PC's level?

My personal opinion is that pay should only be upgraded only if the character takes a 'higher tier' class. The reason why I think this is because, let's say I start with an army of 111 NPC warriors. I go through several battles, and half of them survive long enough to make it to level 2, the rest die. All of them take a second level of warrior. If I now have to pay all of my soldiers the same rate as a PC, I can't replenish my army back up to full strength. Instead, I have to fire one third of my remaining forces! I couldn't pay all of their wages otherwise.

Granted, if all of them took a level in a PC class, they would deserve the higher pay, as they would now have better talents that can be brought to bear. In either of those two cases, though, I am now forced to completely restructure my army and develop new tactics revolving around a smaller force.

One situation that I would see as a reasonable increase in pay in any case, though, is that of a commoner leveling up. If he's survived this long, he's seen enough combat to be considered a veteran, and should receive equal pay to a soldier, even if he just took another level of commoner.

[TheStillWind]

Can we open up the class list to include the Complete Series. I want to try a group of warlocks, scouts, or warmages.

[Squally!]

Well, if you win a battle and take a keep, you increase your income.

i would think you would pay higher level troops more, but you could easily run into the issue of not being able to pay your forces anymore.

As one not too familiar w/ the pay scale for troops, could keep it simple, commoners get 1gp extra for each level, warriors get 2gp extra for each extra level, and pc-class get 5gp extra per level? ionno.

[Squally!]

Can we open up the class list to include the Complete Series. I want to try a group of warlocks, scouts, or warmages.

i could see eldritch blastin warlocks just running and outlasting any army :P

[JeminiZero]

My personal opinion is that pay should only be upgraded only if the character takes a 'higher tier' class. The reason why I think this is because, let's say I start with an army of 111 NPC warriors. I go through several battles, and half of them survive long enough to make it to level 2, the rest die. All of them take a second level of warrior. If I now have to pay all of my soldiers the same rate as a PC, I can't replenish my army back up to full strength. Instead, I have to fire one third of my remaining forces! I couldn't pay all of their wages otherwise.

Not necessarily. You could fire ALL your veterans (which presumably wouldn't incur any life-insurance penalty, since they left you alive), and then immediately rehire a new bunch of cheap level 1 warriors, thereby letting you retain both the structure and strategy of your army. :smallwink: After all, recruitment thus far described is instantaneous.


i could see eldritch blastin warlocks just running and outlasting any army :P

Warlocks are an interesting option, since they are one of the few classes that can reliably break the oft-used Tower Shield Turtle formation. (since the rules specify that targetting the Tower Shield providing Total Cover also targets the warrior holding it).

It would certainly make battles less like the roman legions.

[druid91]

Question: If the entirety of an army's NPC forces levels up, but takes another level in their respective NPC classes, should their pay remain the same, or should their pay be upgraded to that of a PC's level?

My personal opinion is that pay should only be upgraded only if the character takes a 'higher tier' class. The reason why I think this is because, let's say I start with an army of 111 NPC warriors. I go through several battles, and half of them survive long enough to make it to level 2, the rest die. All of them take a second level of warrior. If I now have to pay all of my soldiers the same rate as a PC, I can't replenish my army back up to full strength. Instead, I have to fire one third of my remaining forces! I couldn't pay all of their wages otherwise.

Granted, if all of them took a level in a PC class, they would deserve the higher pay, as they would now have better talents that can be brought to bear. In either of those two cases, though, I am now forced to completely restructure my army and develop new tactics revolving around a smaller force.

One situation that I would see as a reasonable increase in pay in any case, though, is that of a commoner leveling up. If he's survived this long, he's seen enough combat to be considered a veteran, and should receive equal pay to a soldier, even if he just took another level of commoner.

This actually leads to the interesting situation of having it be actually beneficial in the long run to keep the number of vets down, and thus adopt a "we have reserves" strategy.

Swamp them in bodies! blood for the blood god! skulls for the skull throne!:smallcool:

Now the question is, the territory surrounding our fort. It seems to me, that it would be best if we each chose our own territory, and then we could have a variety of specialties and arenas of war.

For example The halflings would want a large area for their arena, open plains in front of their fortress. Basically someplace where they can bring there numbers to bear.

My cat ninjas would probably excel in something like a city, or a jungle. Where hit and run is an easy to use, where the enemy has to split up to give chase.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

My aquatic elf army would want their keep in a swamp or estuary, where they can drag enemies under the water with nets.

(Yes, that's all core material.)

[Tyndmyr]

Yeah, Im not sure I like the idea of your soldiers leveling up being a bad thing. Seems to go entirely against the whole feel of D&D. Keeping troops alive long enough to get them to level should be desirable and grant you a direct advantage.

So...pay should probably stick to the highest value class a character has. If they have a PC level, bang, PC wages. No increase for multiple PC wages, and sticking to NPC levels means no increase over starting wages.

I don't see it as being terribly hard to change terrain. After all, shovels or what not are cheap, and essentially anyone is going to have a fair amount of bodies. If you want to make your castle surrounded by a moat, or by forest, or on a hill or whatever, it doesn't strike me as impossible.

Im thinking order of combat would be determined by listing everyone randomly, and rotating so everyone gets a chance to fight everyone else. Randomly determine if each fight takes place at a keep or in neutral(level, empty) territory. Perhaps a small prize for winning neutral territory fights, since no keep is at stake. Whenever it gets to a point where one person controls a majority of the keeps, they win.

Edit: Also, I have flipped through tome of magic, and see no particular reason why it would be broken to allow. Im gonna tenatively put it on the allow list, let me know if I missed anything horrific. Next up for evaluation is miniatures handbook. I'd like to include as many viable base classes as possible.

[druid91]

Yeah, Im not sure I like the idea of your soldiers leveling up being a bad thing. Seems to go entirely against the whole feel of D&D. Keeping troops alive long enough to get them to level should be desirable and grant you a direct advantage.

So...pay should probably stick to the highest value class a character has. If they have a PC level, bang, PC wages. No increase for multiple PC wages, and sticking to NPC levels means no increase over starting wages.

I don't see it as being terribly hard to change terrain. After all, shovels or what not are cheap, and essentially anyone is going to have a fair amount of bodies. If you want to make your castle surrounded by a moat, or by forest, or on a hill or whatever, it doesn't strike me as impossible.

Im thinking order of combat would be determined by listing everyone randomly, and rotating so everyone gets a chance to fight everyone else. Randomly determine if each fight takes place at a keep or in neutral(level, empty) territory. Perhaps a small prize for winning neutral territory fights, since no keep is at stake. Whenever it gets to a point where one person controls a majority of the keeps, they win.

Edit: Also, I have flipped through tome of magic, and see no particular reason why it would be broken to allow. Im gonna tenatively put it on the allow list, let me know if I missed anything horrific. Next up for evaluation is miniatures handbook. I'd like to include as many viable base classes as possible.

You know, You have convinced me to try and make the d&d equivalent of the Imperial Guard. Poorly equipped and trained, but there is a whole lot of them.

[Yukitsu]

You don't know poorly equipped until you play necromunda. :smalltongue:

[druid91]

Since I'm going with the imperial guard theme... what about bombards from stormwrack?

[dspeyer]

Keep in mind that reduce person is 1 minute per level, so you'd have 10 rounds from takeoff to touchdown.

That's why the *sorcerers* ride the birds. They recast reduce person on the 9th round. The second copy does nothing until the first wears off, at which point it takes over smoothly. They can cast four times a day.


Ranged attacks against you are going to suck, and if you fly too high you're going to have huge penalties to your thrown/dropped items. Isn't it -2 per range increment, and for thrown items that's 10 feet? That means that you could go up to 100 feet away, and attack with a -20, where as sling wielders would be at 2 range increments away, attacking you with a -2.

I don't think the rules for attacking someone below you are normal range increments. They certainly shouldn't be: dropping a rock from 1000ft is much more dangerous than trying to throw it that far horizontally. I don't remember what the rules are, though.

[TheStillWind]

Circle of the Black Dove

I'm tentatively going to enter(assuming CArc is eventually approved) an army of 33 warlocks some with eldritch spear for 250 foot range sniping from the get go, some with summon swarm(crow from ToM) for close range, and some with spider climb for getting into keeps. This Circle of the Black Dove will be lead by a lvl 2 Binder who binds malphas. He uses the bird to collect intelligence and give troops simple commands.

My keep will be just a stone obelisk that is as tall as possible. The sides will be polished smooth. The entrance will be tree house style. The spider climb warlocks climb the sides and lower an elevator that is supported with pulleys and a team mules.

I think I will do very well in the beginning but as troops get stronger I will start to fall behind.

If Warlock isn't approved then I'll just use binders.

[LordBlades]

This is a very nice idea. I'm soo in. Will get an army idea tonight.

Couple of suggestions:

I don't thing allowing Tome of Magic is a good idea. A 1st level binder with imp. binding can bind Savnok for free full plate, thing which would make binders pretty much default choice for melee infantry.

Would be nice to set a max percentage of PC characters in a starting army. After all, if the goal is to simulate a 'realistic' D&D army, most of them would be NPCs.

[jseah]

Actually, I would disagree with the leveling up scheme.
Essentially, once you get a level 3 wizard or cleric, weird stuff starts to happen. Level 2 BC spells are incredible in a formation army like we're throwing around.

Pay must rise with level or levelling is too broken.


I don't mind that this is diverging from the original thread. It's almost as if D&D is going back to being a wargame. ^^

Also, I note a very interesting array of tactics. Ignoring the people who submitted weird armies like cats or airforce...
We have the 666 commoners with slings and clubs.
We have the roman legion with tower shields and spear ranks.
We have light calvary or horse archers.

So yes, I would say, without factoring in the caster armies, D&D armies would tend to fall into the same few roles as real world ones. At least as far as we have thought of them.

[JeminiZero]

Actually, I would disagree with the leveling up scheme.
Essentially, once you get a level 3 wizard or cleric, weird stuff starts to happen. Level 2 BC spells are incredible in a formation army like we're throwing around.

Indeed. The problem with a war-game like this is that after a while, a side that managed to win its last few fights winds up overwhelmingly powerful versus the rest, as it gains loot, experience and additional keeps let them sustain larger armies.

If you aim to show what the typical D&D army would be composed of, I would think that it is sufficient (and simpler) to treat this as a series of exhibition matches, where there is no long term consequence of wins or losses.


So yes, I would say, without factoring in the caster armies, D&D armies would tend to fall into the same few roles as real world ones. At least as far as we have thought of them.

Wouldn't excluding the one thing that makes D&D different from the real world (i.e. Casters) result in armies that are no different from the real world?

[The Deej]

Another contributor to the fact that armies are starting to look the same as real world forces is that most of the equipment in DnD is based off of...wait for it...real world equipment. It's only natural that some real world tactics would emerge simply because of that fact alone.

I also bet that several people here are thinking 'this tactic tended to work in real life, so maybe a variant would work here.' I know that I have been. To see if other things work, we need people who are willing to experiment with any crazy idea, even those that look stupid at first. People who would kick over the chessboard, so to speak. But if the point is simply to win, then taking a 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' approach to army building makes more sense. If that's the case, then we should stick with ideas that are known to work.

[Tyndmyr]

Can we open up the class list to include the Complete Series. I want to try a group of warlocks, scouts, or warmages.

Warmages are definitely going to be in. They also appear in the miniatures handbook, and I've already gone over that section. The only thing so far in that book Im having doubts about is War Hulk, but frankly, the requirements for entry are sufficiently hard to get in that I don't know if it'll ever come up.

Warlocks worry me slightly. I don't know if it's justified, but it seems to me they'd be flat-out superior to archers. That said...I suppose they are a PC class, and you can make solid NPC archers. *shrug*

Squally, taking keeps doesn't actually increase income...at least as written now. It merely deprives them of a lot of income and gives you a second keep. The only way to actually entirely kill an army off atm is to destroy them completely. In short, increasing income AND increasing levels would be kinda crazy, and whoever won initially would tend to keep winning pretty hard. I want winning to be rewarded, but I'd like it at least possible for an initially losing team to make a recovery.

Dspeyer, range penalties still matter for shooting downward...though you do gain the high ground bonus as listed in combat modifiers in the SRD. However, you can just randomly drop things at squares, too. Hitting a specific square is what, AC 5? If you have splash weapons, this can be effective.

Lordblades, Im not 100% certain that binders would be the default choice for infantry. Effectively having free full plate is awesome, but if I'm not mistaken, compared to fighter, you sacrifice full BaB a feat, and some proficiencies, no? It's certainly a legitimate option, but I wouldn't consider it the only one.

JeminiZero, I initially had it set as exibition matches...but there are a few problems with that. First off, it undervalues equipment greatly, with the exception of consumables. Consider the warlock vs the archer. You can make an NPC archer that uses more expensive gear than the warlock, but is roughly equal in lethality. In return, his upkeep is lower, being an NPC class. This is balanced in the long term where upkeep matters, but in a exhibition style system, there's no balance. Also, I suspect things like losing familiars are another case where long term penalties are assumed in D&D, and would not be modeled well by exhibition matches.

It'll be interesting to see which armies work, and how they develop.

[Typewriter]

Are we going to use strategy/formations at all, or is it just going to be troops vs. troops? A line of troops with longspear wielders behind them is going to be attractive in melee because of the longspear wielders position, but this is about when you're going to have to start rolling for each troop.

[Chuckthedwarf]

Warlocks might be a little bit silly.

At level 1, you can pick up an invocation that summons a swarm just like that level 2 spell. Swarms are immune to a lot of forms of damage... And at-will casting will let you use them whenever you want.

[Tyndmyr]

Are we going to use strategy/formations at all, or is it just going to be troops vs. troops? A line of troops with longspear wielders behind them is going to be attractive in melee because of the longspear wielders position, but this is about when you're going to have to start rolling for each troop.

The level of strategy you use is optional.

In that particular case, you can mostly just roll a bunch of D20s and apply the results from left to right.

Yeah, I'll have to review warlock carefully. The at-will nature of things is potentially an issue, if they sit in the far back of the battlefield and dominate. Im less worried about the actual level 2 spell, because level 3 casters take some effort to get, and the amount of summoning they have available is inherently limited. Sure, they'll kill people with what they have, but it's probably not game breaking.

[Darth Stabber]

Going through the list of weapons, there are only really a few that are worth investing it. Spear and Longspear immediately leap to mind, since they offer such a marked departure from what is possible with club. The difference between a club and a shortsword is only 1 damage on average. A Spear gives you double size damage die and 1.5str, and a Longspear gives the same + reach.


Army Assuming the allowance of PHB2(for 1 feat)

Rank 1- 26gp a peice
Human Warrior-9gp
Club - free
Heavy Wooden Shield - 7gp
Leather Armor - 10gp

Stat Priority:Dex>Str>Con
Feat: Shield Specialization, dodge
Purpose - With a minimum 15(+dex)AC, these guys are there to absorb the initial brunt of the assault, and allow the longspears and and slingers to go to work. They will primarilly take full defence actions and they have a 20(+dex) ac against their dodge target and can hold a line quite well, and this will be their primary puprose.

Rank 2 - 14.1gp a peice
Human Warrior - 9gp
Longspear - 5gp
Sling and Bullets - 0.1gp

Stat Priority:Str>Con>Dex
Feat: Power Attack, Cleave
Purpose - No real mystery here, Damage dealers, pure and simple, reach over the First rank with the longspears and stab away, with the likely hood of (1d8+1.5str+2)damage killing an enemy, cleave will happen with it at a decent ratio

Rank 3 - 9.2gp a peice
Human Warrior - 9gp
sling + bullets(2bags) - 0.2gp
club - Free

Stat Priority:Dex>Con>Str
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Purpose: Provide a constant stream of rocks and bullets, while halfling would provide a racial bonus, the ability to throw into melee accurately makes the human feat well worth it.


Enemy
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So now that I have read the changes to the rules on the FP, I must add that this army is based off of 2000gp with a maximum of 200 men.

[LordBlades]

My army for this thing is going to be a desert orc horde:

5x orc druid with camel animal companion.
Feat: Imp. Initiative
Stats: 18, 12, 13, 8, 12, 6
HP: 9
AC 15
Gear: Leather Armor(10 gp), heavy wooden shield (7 GP), club(free) Sling (free), military saddle (20 gp), MW studded leather barding (250 gp) 20 bullets total: 287 gp

5x orc fighter riding the camels.
Feats: Mounted Combat, Spirited Charge
Stats: 19 13 14 8 10 6
HP: 12
AC 17
Gear: banded mail (250 gp), Lance (10 gp), Greataxe (20 gp), longbow (75 gp), 20 arrows(1 gp) total:346 gp

15x orc binder
Feat: Improved Binding
HP: 10
AC 20 (with Savnok bound)
Gear: buckler (15 gp), greatclub(5 gp), Light Crossbow(35 gp), 20 bolts (1 gp): total: 55 gp
Stats: 19 13 14 8 10 6

15x Orc Warrior
Feat: WF: Guisarme
Stats: 17 11 12 7 8 6
HP 9
AC 13
Gear: Studded Leather (25 gp), Guisarme (9 gp), longbow(75g gp), 20 arrows(1 gp) total: 110 gp

32x orc commoner
Stats: 17 11 12 7 8 6
HP 5
AC 13
Gear: Studded Leather (25 gp), Longspear (5 gp), Sling (free), 20 bullets total: 30 gp


2x orc adept
Feat: imp. initiative
Gear: Greatclub (5 gp)
Stats: 14 11 12 7 11 6
HP:7

Will add leader and maybe some equipment changes later (still have a good 3000 gp or so left over).

[super dark33]

My army, more soon to come!


Armorerd swordmen:human fighter lvl 1
Abbilities (using 28 pointbuy):Str:18 con:16 dex:10 and the rest:8
HP:1d10+3 (9)
breastplate 200 gp
longsword 15 gp
large wooden shield 7 gp
Total:255 gp per Footmen
expended stats:AC:17 Hit bonus:+5 Damage:1d8+4 19-20 X3
Feats:Improved sunder, power attack,Cleave

Footmen:humen warrior
Hp:1d8+3 (7)
Abbilities:using 22 point build:16 str 16 con 10 dex rest 8
Medium spear (1d8 X3):10 Gp
Small wooden shield:3 gp
Chain shirt:100 gp
total:122 gp per unit
Feat:Imp initiative, power attack
Expended stats:AC:15 Hit bonus:+4 Damage:1d8+3 (X3)

Archers:humen warrior
HP:1d8+2 (6)
Abbilities:Str 12 Dex 16 Con 15 rest 8
studded leather armor:25 gp
Club:free
Longbow:75 gp
total:109 gp per unit
Feat:imp. initiative,point blank shot
Expended Stats:AC:16 Hit bounus:+4 Damage:1d8

And new rule: pc classes get 28 pointbuy abillties,NPC classes get 22 point build and commoners get 15 point build

[Tyndmyr]

Honestly, Im considering limiting it to a single free weapon per character. Because the club throwers who carry as many clubs as possible are a bit ridiculous. The battlefield will look like a firewood fight.

Additional "free" weapons are 1g each or some such.

I'd prefer to avoid rolling or point buy. While those are fine systems for normal games, it adds another layer of preparation to something on this scale.

[Darth Stabber]

Honestly, Im considering limiting it to a single free weapon per character. Because the club throwers who carry as many clubs as possible are a bit ridiculous. The battlefield will look like a firewood fight.

Additional "free" weapons are 1g each or some such.


I love the visual of hordes chucking sticks at each other.

I suggest limiting it to 2 free items (sling and club, or double club twf). I like the club and sling switchability, and I really don't like having to pay extra for my crap mobs. Now if stick chucking is a strategy you want to go for I suggest 1sp each since they would still end up more expensive than sling Bullets (which are +1atk, +0-1 more damage), but have an advantage (+0-2+str damage).

[druid91]

And the bombards?

[Tyndmyr]

One of my friends suggested commoners with crossbows. I pointed out that crossbows are expensive. He shrugged. "Twelve commoners per crossbow. One bolt each".

*haven't gotten to stormwrack yet, Im afraid.

[Squally!]

quick question on sunder, since it would come up for me if i go this route...

since a few armies are going w/ the mobile turtle approach, could you sunder the longspears they have, without first breaking through the tower shields? ie breaking the spears as they poke them through/over the shields?

[Tyndmyr]

If they are using the spears, I see nothing to prevent you from sundering them. Hell, you could even ready a sunder for their attack if they haven't poked it out yet.

The only thing that'll keep the spears safe is if they're kept behind the shield with everything else. IE, not being wielded as a weapon. In that case, there's always the shield to sunder.

[Lord_Gareth]

Keep in mind, however, that sundering without the proper feat provokes AoOs, which the spear-users are probably going to take in order to trip your ass.

[Tyndmyr]

I presume he's considering dedicated sunderers, yeah. Either that, or you could just hope the AoOs miss.

Of course, if it's a commoner, they may not even try to trip, might go straight for the normal AoO. Could kill outright.

[Lord_Gareth]

Point well made.

[Darth Stabber]

The point of the big heavy Battle axes and warhammers in greek, roman, and Mideval combat was to break the shield or shield arm of the enemy combatant, thus breaking a hole in the enemy line and the regular troops would proceed to exploit said hole. Heavy axe troops weren't expected to survive, just smash themselves on the shield wall until it broke.

[The Deej]

I think I have a half-crazed, yet potentially effective army idea.

Orc chariots.

Driver

level 1 orc warrior
STR 14, DEX 11, CON 13, INT 10, WIS 7, CHA 6
Feats: Mounted Combat
Skills: Ride +4, Handle Animal +2
Gear: Tower shield, 2x light war horse, chariot (as per crop-topped stage coach)


Slinger

level 1 orc warrior
STR 15, DEX 12, CON 13, INT 8, WIS 7, CHA 6
Feats: Weapon Focus (sling)
Skills: Spot +2
Attacks:
sling +3 ranged (1d4+2)
club +3 melee (1d6+2)
AC: 14
HP: 9
Gear:
studded leather armor, club, sling (ammo 20)


Each chariot has 1 driver and 5 slingers, and my force is composed of 18 chariots.

[Ajadea]

I'm not going to ask where we got 10,000 GP of equipment. I'm not complaining, though.

Lessee....Race: Orcs, most definitely. Jungle Orcs if possible, for that +2 to Heal. +4 Str is just too awesome to waste. Assuming we've got a whole bunch of Jungle Orcs....

PC Character: Jungle Orc Bard 2 (1436 GP)

HD: 2d6+2 (11 HP)
AC: 16 (+4 Armor, +2 Dex), Touch 12, Flat-Footed 14
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft
BAB/Grapple: +1/+3
Atk: Glaive +3 melee (1d8+3/x3) (5 GP) or Composite (+2 Str) Shortbow +3 ranged (1d6+2/x3/70 ft) (275 GP)
Special: Bardic Music 2/day (countersong, fascinate, inspire courage +1), bardic knowledge +2 (if possible, trade for Bardic Knack (PHB2)), low-light vision, light sensitivity, Spells (3/1) (5/2 known. 0: Cure Minor Wounds, Resistance, Mending, Message, Lullaby, 1: Hideous Laughter, Sleep. Save DC 12+Spell Level (all save-requiring spells are Enchantment))
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +5, Will +1
Skills: Concentration +6, Listen +4, Heal +0, Perform (sing) +6, Spot +4, Survival +0, Tumble +7, Ride +4, Use Magic Device +2
Feat: Spell Focus (enchantment)
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 6, Cha 13
Other: Wand of CLW (750 GP), 2 scrolls of Eagle's Splendor (300 gp), Chain shirt (100 GP, -2 ACP), 60 arrows (3 gp), 2 days trail rations, waterskin, flint and steel, 3 torches


44 Jungle Orc Frontliners, 1st level Warrior (73.13 GP in gear)

HD: 1d8+4 (8 HP)
AC: 16 (+4 Armor, +2 Shield), Touch 10, Flat-Footed 16
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft (20 ft in Hide Armor)
BAB/Grapple: +1/+4
Atk: Battleaxe +4 melee (1d8+3/x3) (10 GP) or Sling +0 ranged (1d4+3/50 ft)
Special: Low-light vision, light sensitivity
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +0, Will -1
Skills: Heal +3, Survival +1
Feat: Toughness
Str 16, Dex 11, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 8, Cha 6
Other: Scale Mail (50 GP), Heavy Wooden Shield (7 GP), 10 sling bullets (1 sp), sack, 2 days trail rations, waterskin, flint and steel, 3 torches


37 Jungle Orc Spearmen, 1st level Warrior (64.13 GP in gear)

HD: 1d8+1 (5 HP)
AC: 14 (+4 Armor), Touch 10, Flat-Footed 14
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft (20 ft in Scale Mail)
BAB/Grapple: +1/+4
Atk: Glaive +5 melee (1d10+4/x3) (8 GP) or Sling +0 ranged (1d4+3/50 ft)
Special: Low-light vision, light sensitivity
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +0, Will -1
Skills: Heal +3, Survival +1
Feat: Weapon Focus (Glaive)
Str 16, Dex 11, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 8, Cha 6
Other: Scale Mail (50 GP), 10 sling bullets (1 sp), sack, 2 days trail rations, waterskin, flint and steel, 3 torches


30 Jungle Orc Crossbowmen, 1st level Warriors (94.03 GP in gear)

HD: 1d8+1 (5 HP)
AC: 15 (+4 Armor, +1 Dex), Touch 11, Flat-Footed 14
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft (20 ft in Scale Mail)
BAB/Grapple: +1/+4
Atk: Light Crossbow +2 Ranged (1d8/19-20/80 ft) or Club +4 melee (1d6+3/10 ft)
Special: Low-light vision, light sensitivity
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +0, Will -1
Skills: Heal +4, Survival +2
Feat: Rapid Reload
Str 12, Dex 13, Con 11, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 7
Other: Scale Mail (50 GP), 40 crossbow bolts (3 gp), sack, 2 days trail rations, waterskin, flint and steel, 3 torches


152.57 GP remaining from gear.

Strategy is fairly simple. Cast Sleep on any dangerous groups: the level 2 PC for example (if I can tell which one it is). Double Move until we get within 80 feet of the enemy and then activate Inspire Courage. The orcs should be able to hear the bard from up to 85 feet away without any need for checks. That's not even a challenge. +1 on attack and damage to every single one of these guys. Standard action: Shoot the frontline/maintain bardic music. Move action: Get closer. Once within 50 feet, secondline warriors start slinging as well. Once at melee range, secondline warriors go back to glaives and start hacking up the frontliners, and my own frontline warriors fight defensively to maintain cover for the rest. The bard can maintain bardic music indefinitely, and that +1 attack and damage is going to go a long way for my glaive warriors.

Glaive +6 melee (1d10+5/x3) should be able to take out basically one soldier a round unless they fight defensively, in which case we're just not going anywhere, as no one will be able to hit anyone, and the archers decide the battle.

If flaws are allowed, archers take Non-Combatant to get Precise Shot. Human archers would be really nice, but one race only, so I can't have them if I want my awesome melee.

Arguably, even better would be a Bard/Dragon Shaman (PHB 2) with Extra Music instead of Spell Focus and the Power, Senses, and Toughness Auras. Senses aura up: +1 to initiative. Swap to Toughness: DR 1/magic. I'm fairly sure no one has magic weapons. Now start Inspire Courage: that's +1 to attack and damage. Once we get into melee range, switch to Power Aura and get another +1 to attack and damage. Still shouldn't be that hard to get everyone in range.

EDIT: Numbers revised to work better with the half-box formation I'm using.

[Tyndmyr]

I like, I like. Avoiding flaws intentionally, just to keep the complexity level down.

Incidentally, I went over the racial paragon classes and saw nothing problematic. Consider those in. I'll review the requested stuff over the weekend.

[Squally!]

las question, since its a bit unclear, do we have 1000g + 1000g income for having a keep? or do we start with 1000g income with our keep, and it drops to 500g w/o it?

[Tyndmyr]

or do we start with 1000g income with our keep, and it drops to 500g w/o it?

This one.

Everyone will be at one of those two income levels unless they get utterly wiped out.

[Squally!]

Kord's Warband:
Human
47 Shield Breakers
50 Bóndi
4 War-Chanters
Monthly Cost: 993g
Gear: 9640g

Leader: Korg The Frenzied
Class: Barbarian 2
Stats: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8
HP: 2D12 + 2
AC: 16, 10 + 4 + 2
Feats: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush
Gear: Masterwork Greataxe (320) Chain Shirt (100)

Group 1: Shield-Breakers (47, 423g/month)
Class: Warrior (9gp/month)
Stats: 13, 11, 12, 9, 10, 8
HP: 1D8 +1
AC: 13, 10 + 3
Feats: Power Attack, Imp. Sunder
Gear: Chain Shirt, Greataxe, Hammer - Light x 10, Alchemist's Fire (150gp)

Group 2: War-Chanters (4, 120g/month)
Class: Bard (30gp/month)
Stats: 10, 14, 13, 12, 8, 15
HP: 1D6 + 1
AC: 16, 10 + 4 + 2
Feats: Iron Will, Imp, Initiative
Gear: Chain Shirt, Handaxe, Axe - Throwing x3 (130gp)
Spells: Daze, Flare, Message, Summon Instrument
Skill: Perform - Oratory

Group 3: Bóndi (50, 450g/month)
Class: Warrior (9gp/month)
Stats: 13, 12, 10, 8, 11, 9
HP: 1D8 + 0
AC: 14, 10 + 2 + 1 + 1
Feats: Iron Will, Weapon Focus - Battleaxe
Gear: Battleaxe, Hammer – Light x 10, Leather, Light Wooden Shield (33gp)

Keep: Nothing but 9 Stronghold space worth of Wooden Walls and a large, front gate.
The rest is spent on tents and bedrolls for troops.

Monthly Cost: 993g
Gear: 9640g

Basic Strategy is to let the shield-breakers move in, throwing their alchemist fires onto and around formations, charging in after if no spears are readied, and sundering the front lines. They will hold actions to break spears if there is a shield wall. Once the front lines are down ,they will begin chopping away at people! The leader, Korg, will be at the back of this group, along with 2 of the warchanters singing their bardic inspire courage. He will charge things like bards and spellcasters as they present themselves.
The Bóndi will swing around and attack any ranged units that they can, bringing 2 of the warchanters with them. If there are no ranged, they will support the shield-breakers, holding the flanks. Warchanters will cast daze on leaders or other bards/clerics when possible, but will start the battle singing.


I have a feeling it wont be a winning army, but it should be fun!

[Land Outcast]

One of my friends suggested commoners with crossbows. I pointed out that crossbows are expensive. He shrugged. "Twelve commoners per crossbow. One bolt each".

*haven't gotten to stormwrack yet, Im afraid.

Hehe, yes, the beautiful time freeze od D&D combat:
One guy shoots the light crossbow (standard action) and passes it on to the next (move action -yes, being an a**, not allowing it as a free action-), that guy loads it and passes it to the next guy, who shoots and passes it on :D.

100 commoners, 50 crossbow bolts, 1 masterwork heavy crossbow: gets you 50 "ranged +2 (1d8/19-20)" shots in one round with the same crossbow.

I'm being silly, yes.

[ScionoftheVoid]

I'm fairly sure I saw Sandstorm allowed, so I may well make an army when I get the time to look over this carefully. Asherati going under a level of loose dirt, with a lot of time being spent loosening this dirt. A Lyre of Building is going to become a priority eventually. Weapons will probably be Eagle Claws unless they are prohibitively expensive, allowing multiple attacks for warriors who level up. General idea is to hide until the other army is vulnerable, slitting throats when their guard is down or breaking formations from below. It'll certainly be interesting if it works.

[Kurgan]

This kind of exercise looks fun to me.

Meet Merrin Tann, he is the Duke of Whiteforge. Whiteforge is a fairly unimpressive land, and Merrin has grown tired of all the other dukes and duchesses rubbing it in his face. So, when the king offered a hefty stipend to civilize the wilderness, Merrin jumped at the opportunity to better himself.

Merrin Tann, Duke of Whiteforge:
Human Bard 1/Fighter 1
Hit Dice: 1d6 + 1d10 + 2 (18 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 30ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (-1 dex, +6 banded mail, +2 heavy wood shield), flat footed 17, touch 9
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+3
Attack: Longsword +3 melee (1d8+2) or Javelin +0 ranged (1d6+2)
Full Attack: Longsword +3 melee (1d8+2) or Javelin +0 ranged (1d6+2)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Bardic music, bardic knowledge, Bonus feat
Saves: Fort: +4, Ref: +1, Will: +4
Abilities: Str: 15, Dex: 8, Con: 14, Int: 13, Wis: 10, Cha: 12
Skills: +4 Climb (2 ranks), +6 Concentration (4 ranks), +2 Gather Information (1 rank), +3 Knowledge (architecture and engineering) (2 ranks), +4 Knowledge (geography) (3 ranks), +4 Knowledge (history) (3 ranks), +4 Listen (4 ranks), +5 Perform (oration) (4 ranks), +6 Ride (4 ranks), +4 Spellcraft (3 ranks), +4 Spot (4 ranks), +4 Swim (2 ranks)
Feats: Iron Will, Mounted Combat (bonus), Skill Focus (ride)
CR: 2

Saves: Bard: fort +0, ref: +2, will +2
Fighter: fort +2, ref +0, will +0

Bardic Music:
-Countersong
-Fascinate
-Inspire Courage +1

Spells: 2 level 0 -> will not use these, as he is in armor
Spells Known: 4 level 0

Cost:
-Banded mail: 250
-Heavy wood shield: 7
-Longsword: 15
-Javelin x2: 2
-Potion of Cure Light Wounds: 50
-Heavy Warhorse: 400

Total Cost: 724gp


Of course, his build kind of hinges on my reading of bards being able to use bardic music in heavy armor. If I misread that, I might switch out bard for marshal (if Miniatures Handbook is given a definite yes that is).

The Rank and File soldier
Rank and File Soldier:
Level 1 human warrior
Hit Dice: 1d8 + 7 (15hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (+3 hide armor), flat footed 13, touch 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+2
Attack: Longspear +2 melee (1d8+1) or Javelin +1 ranged (1d6+1)
Full Attack: Longspear +2 melee (1d8+1) or Javelin +1 ranged (1d6+1)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft (10ft w/ longspear)
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Meaty
Saves: Fort: +3, Ref: +0, Will: +0
Abilities: Str: 13, Dex: 11, Con: 12, Int: 9, Wis: 10, Cha: 8
Skills: +3 Climb (2 ranks), +3 Intimidate (4 ranks), +3 Swim (2 ranks)
Feats: Toughness x2
CR: 1/2

Cost per soldier: 9gp
Cost to equip: 22gp

Equipment:
Hide Armor: 15
Longspear: 5
Javelin x2: 2


There are 35 of these guys, costing 315gp to recruit, and 770gp to equip.

Ranged Units
Archer Brigade:
Level 1 human warrior
Hit Dice: 1d8 (8hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 30ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+1 dex, +3 studded leather), flat footed 13, touch 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+0
Attack: Club +0 melee (1d4-1), Longbow +3 ranged (1d8)
Full Attack: Club +0 melee (1d4-1), Longbow +3 ranged (1d8)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: -
Saves: Fort: +2, Ref: +1, Will: -1
Abilities: Str: 9, Dex: 13, Con: 11, Int: 12, Wis: 10, Cha: 8
Skills: +3 Climb (4 ranks), +2 Listen (4 ranks x-class), +2 Spot (4 ranks x-class), +3 Swim (4 ranks)
Feats: Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (longbow)
CR: 1/2

Cost per soldier: 9gp
Cost to equip: 102gp

Equipment:
Club: free
Longbow: 75
Studded Leather Armor: 25
Arrows x40: 2gp


30 of these guys, costing 270gp to recruit and 3060gp to equip.

Healers/Medics
Healer:
Level 1 human adept
Hit Dice: 1d6 (6hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 10, flat footed 10, touch 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-1
Attack: Shortspear –1 melee (1d6-1)
Full Attack: Shortspear –1 melee (1d6-1)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special Attacks: Spells
Special Qualities: -
Saves: Fort: +0, Ref: +0, Will: +3
Abilities: Str: 9, Dex: 11, Con: 10, Int: 12, Wis: 13, Cha: 8
Skills: +7 Concentration (4 ranks), +7 Heal (4 ranks), +3 Knowledge (religion) (2 ranks), +3 Knowledge (nature) (2 ranks), +3 Spellcraft (2 ranks), +5 Survival (2 ranks)
Feats: Self-Sufficient, Skill Focus (concentration)
CR: ½

Spells/day:
Level 0: 3: Cure Minor Wounds x3
Level 1: 2: Cure Light Wounds x2

Cost to recruit: 9gp
Cost to equip: 1gp

Equipment:
Shortspear: 1
Spell book/focus: free/comes with caster


10 of these guys, costing 90gp to recruit and 10gp to equip.

Heavy Infantry
Heavy Foot:
Level 1 human warrior
Hit Dice: 1d8 +3 (11hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 dex, +4 chain shirt, +2 heavy steel shield), flat footed 16, touch 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+2
Attack: Battleaxe +3 melee (1d8+1) or Javelin +2 ranged (1d6+1)
Full Attack: Battleaxe +3 melee (1d8+1) or Javelin +2 ranged (1d6+1)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: -
Saves: Fort: +2, Ref: +1, Will: -1
Abilities: Str: 13, Dex: 12, Con: 11, Int: 10, Wis: 9, Cha: 8
Skills: +3 Climb (2 ranks), +3 Intimidate (4 ranks), +3 Jump (2 ranks), +3 Ride (2 ranks), +3 Swim (2 ranks)
Feats: Toughness, Weapon Focus (battleaxe)
CR: ½

Cost to recruit: 9gp
Cost to equip: 132gp

Equipment:
Chain Shirt: 100
Heavy Steel Shield: 20
Battleaxe: 10
Javelin x2: 2


There are 15 heavy infantrymen in the army, costing 135gp to recruit and 1980 to equip.

Scout Units
Scout:
Level 1 human expert
Hit Dice: 1d6 (6hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (+1 dex, +2 leather), flat footed 12, touch 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+0
Attack: Spear +0 melee (1d8), Javelin +1 ranged (1d6)
Full Attack: Spear +0 melee (1d8), Javelin +1 ranged (1d6)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: -
Saves: Fort: -1, Ref: +1, Will: +3
Abilities: Str: 10, Dex: 13, Con: 9, Int: 12, Wis: 11, Cha: 8
Skills: +2 Climb (2 ranks), +7 Hide (4 ranks), +5 Knowledge (nature) (4 ranks), +4 Listen (4 ranks), +7 Move Silently (4 ranks), +5 Search (4 ranks), +4 Spot (4 ranks), +5 Survival (4 ranks), +2 Swim (2 ranks)
Feats: Stealthy, Track
CR: ½

Skills: Climb, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Survival, Swim

Cost to recruit: 9gp
Cost to equip: 13gp

Equipment:
Leather Armor: 10
Spear: 2
Javelin: 1


Five scouts: recruit: 45gp, Equip: 65gp

Scout Commander:
Level 1 human ranger
Hit Dice: 1d8 + 1 (9hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+2 dex, +2 leather), flat footed 12, touch 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+2
Attack: Longsword +2 melee (1d8+1) or Longbow +3 ranged (1d8)
Full Attack: Longsword +2 melee (1d8+1) or Longbow +3 ranged (1d8)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Favored Enemy (human), Track, Wild Empathy
Saves: Fort: +3, Ref: +4, Will: +0
Abilities: Str: 12, Dex: 15, Con: 13, Int: 14, Wis: 10, Cha: 8
Skills: +3 Climb (2 ranks), +8 Hide (4 ranks), +3 Jump (2 ranks), +5 Knowledge (geography) (3 ranks), +5 Knowledge (nature) (3 ranks), +4 Listen (4 ranks), +8 Move Silently (4 ranks), +6 Search (4 ranks), +4 Spot (4 ranks), +7 Survival (4 ranks), +3 Swim (2 ranks)
Feats: Skill Focus (survival), Stealthy
CR: 1

Favored Enemy (human):
+2 bluff, listen, sense motive, spot and survival v. humans
+2 damage v. humans

Cost to recruit: 30gp
Cost to equip: 102gp

Equipment:
Longbow: 75
Arrows x40: 2
Longsword: 15
Leather Armor: 10


Commander of the Scout Unit, 1 of these guys: recruit: 30gp, Equip: 102gp

General's Bodyguard
General’s Bodyguard:
Level 1 human fighter
Hit Dice: 1d10 +8 (18hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 dex, +4 chain shirt, +2 heavy wood shield), flat footed 16, touch 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+3
Attack: Lance +3 melee (1d8+2) or Short Sword +3 melee (1d6+2) or Javelin +2 ranged (1d6+2)
Full Attack: Lance +3 melee (1d8+2) or Short Sword +3 melee (1d6+2) or Javelin +2 ranged (1d6+2)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft (10ft w/ lance)
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: bonus feat
Saves: Fort: +4, Ref: +1, Will: +1
Abilities: Str: 15, Dex: 13, Con: 14, Int: 10, Wis: 12, Cha: 8
Skills: +3 Intimidate (4 ranks), +5 Ride (4 ranks), +6 Swim (4 ranks)
Feats: Toughness x2, Mounted Combat
CR: 1

Cost to recruit: 30gp
Cost to equip: 279gp

Equipment:
Lance: 10
Javelin x2: 2
Short Sword: 10
Chain Shirt: 100
Heavy wood shield: 7
Warhorse, Light: 150


3 of these, costing 90gp to recruit and 837gp to equip.

Other equipment:
Ram x1: 1,000gp
Ballista x2: 1,000gp (these are located at the currently unbuilt keep)

Total Recruitment Cost: 975gp
Total Equipment Cost: 9537gp

There we go, an army of exactly 100 soldiers, and hey, I can even afford to press eight commoners into it even :smallbiggrin:

I'll start working on a stronghold, though I am finding the Stronghold Builder's Guide to be a pain to navigate.

[Typewriter]

So, I've updated my halfling army based off the new rules (I made the leader a marshall since that sounded approved?)
New formation looks something like:

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/5997/armyvb.png

Unit, Cost, Equipment Cost, Quantity,Total Equipment Cost, Total Unit Cost, Code
Shield Warriors, 9, 84, 24, 2016, 216, W
Fighters, 30 , 234, 12, 2808, 360, F
Spear Warriors, 9, 5.3, 28, 148.4, 252, P
Bard, 30, 25, 3, 75, 90, B
Crossbow Commoner, 3, 53, 25, 1325, 75, C
Leader Marshall, 0, 1530, 1, 1530, 0, M

Total Equipment Cost:7902.4
Total Unit Cost: 993

Shield Warriors

STR 10
DEX 15
CON 11
INT 9
WIS 10
CHA 8

Weapon Finesse
HP: 8
Tower Shield
Scale Mail
Light Pick
AC: 22
Light Pick:+2 1d3 20x4



Fighters

STR 10
DEX 17
CON 14
INT 13
WIS 10
CHA 8

Toughness
Weapon Finesse
HP: 15
Breastplate
Tower Shield
Light Pick
AC: 23
Light Pick:+3 1d3 20x4


Spear Warriors

STR 10
DEX 14
CON 11
INT 9
WIS 10
CHA 8

Toughness
HP: 11
Longspear
Sling, 30 bullets
AC: 13
Longspear:+2 1d6 20x3
Sling: +4 1d3 20x2



Bards

STR 6
DEX 16
CON 12
INT 13
WIS 10
CHA 15


Crossbow Commoners

STR 9
DEX 15
CON 12
INT 9
WIS 10
CHA 8

Toughness
HP:8
Light Crossbow, 30 Arrows
AC: 13
L Crossbow +3 1d6, 19x2


Leader(Marshall)

STR 10
DEX 12
CON 15
INT 8
WIS 13
CHA 14

Tower Shield Proficiency
HP: 23
Tower Shield
Full Plate
AC: 24


Strategy

The idea is that, while even one bard can theoretically be heard by the entire unit, three will guarantee coverage, and will also allow some to fall, and still keep the bonuses going (+1 Attack/Damage). This is, of course, when they are not in stealth (before the enemy gets close).
The Marshall in the middle is going to use his minor bonus to add to damage when we flank (which we can do in certain places along the borders if we were to get swarmed), and his major aura will be DR 1/-

Spear warriors who do not have a direct line to enemies(enemies are attacking from the north, so the ones on the south) will be using their slings, and 25 crossbows will be loosed each round.

Meanwhile every halfling has ranks in heal for after battle cleanup.


I'm waiting to determine my last expenditure of wealth. probably going to buy some defenses for the castle and the like, possibly some battering rams or similar. Also curious is magic items. Allowed/disallowed? What about hiring casters to do things for you?

And you may also want to outlaw adamantine weapons. Just as a thought. I mean, a single commoner with max ranks in stealth, good dex, and skill focus(stealth) would likely be able to sneak up behind a castle and make a good chunk of it disappear for his allies to swarm through.

That's if he doesn't just spend the year or two it would take to tunnel underneath and collapse the place.

Adamantine is dumb.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

I don't know that I want to go into that much detail...

I won't enter to compete. I just like brainstorming.

I think Sea Elf barbarians with nets, assisting one another, could be a dangerous shallow-water ambush.

[Ajadea]

I like, I like. Avoiding flaws intentionally, just to keep the complexity level down.


Is Dragon Shaman allowed? Cause that tweaks the formation I'll be using (from boxy to half-round)

[Ganurath]

The first page seems to be utterly lacking in updates. I'm curious as to which among the following, if any, are allowed:

1. Crusaders
2. Strongheart Halflings
3. Feats from Complete Warrior

[The Deej]

Tyndmyr hasn't reviewed ToB as far as I know, but he said that he'd review completes and others over this weekend.

I would personally recommend AGAINST crusaders, though, because that is a class that could easily become an immediate must-have for all sides. I DM'd for a short low-level campaign with a crusader in it where I sent hordes of undead against the party. Every round, he was able to either not take damage, heal, or otherwise just plain not have to worry about dying, even when outnumbered, out CR'd, surrounded, flanked, and with a rabid wolverine in his shorts (okay, that last one didn't happen but the rest did, and often).

If two sides had a bunch of crusaders, I wouldn't be surprised at all if it took longer than a week to resolve the battle.

Edit: now that I think about it, I might revise my army further if completes are allowed.

[Tyndmyr]

Tyndmyr hasn't reviewed ToB as far as I know, but he said that he'd review completes and others over this weekend.

I would personally recommend AGAINST crusaders, though, because that is a class that could easily become an immediate must-have for all sides. I DM'd for a short low-level campaign with a crusader in it where I sent hordes of undead against the party. Every round, he was able to either not take damage, heal, or otherwise just plain not have to worry about dying, even when outnumbered, out CR'd, surrounded, flanked, and with a rabid wolverine in his shorts (okay, that last one didn't happen but the rest did, and often).

If two sides had a bunch of crusaders, I wouldn't be surprised at all if it took longer than a week to resolve the battle.

Edit: now that I think about it, I might revise my army further if completes are allowed.

This is my feeling on crusader as well. It's just really, really good at level one. I'll probably allow the other two, though.

Im gonna add Complete Arcane. Yup, It's got warlock in it. It's strong, but Im not sure it's too strong. Sure, Summon Swarm is nasty, but swarms are quite slow, which limits battlefield use, and you can solve it by stabbing the warlock lots.

Edit: Dungeonscape is also in.

[The Winter King]

What about PHII?

Also can paragon classes count as NPC classes, they arent all that great. They are basically NPC classes that provide marginal benefits that arent as good as some of the NPC classes for the most part.

[Tyndmyr]

Paragon classes as NPC classes? Wouldn't say so. They're fairly solid. Consider human, which gives 2/3rd BaB, 2/3rd spellcasting, a free feat, +2 to a stat, a permanent class skills, solid hd, solid skills, and lets you pick your own 10 class skills?

They tend to pretty awesome compared to NPC classes.

Stormwrack is in, I'll add Phb2 to the list to check out. Be aware that a lot of the stuff in stormwrack is pretty aquatic specific, and as of right now, Ive got no plans to simulate all that. However, if you want to shell out thousands of gold for a bombard, go nuts. Be aware that they are not the most mobile of things.

[Silva Stormrage]

This looks interesting I think I will try to make an army sometime today, just a few quick questions.
What book are strong-heart halflings in?
Are there any plans to review HOH I love the dread necromancer class :smallbiggrin:?
How do you decide terrain types, because entangle will either be amazingly awesome or completely useless depending on that.
Are flaws and traits allowed? I know SRD is allowed but wanted to make sure. Limit to 2 flaws?
How is initiative handled? Is it just roll for each individual person or roll for a group?

Somewhat related how do you handle two riders on a mount? Two small riders on a large mount? One small rider on a large mount? Those rules never made sense to me.

[Ganurath]

Crusader was just my first pick, in reality I'm just looking to make use of White Raven manuevers. My question still stands on the Strongheart Halflings (like regular halflings, but give up save bonus for a bonus feat) and the feats in Complete Warrior (specifically Swarmfighting.)

[Typewriter]

Crusader was just my first pick, in reality I'm just looking to make use of White Raven manuevers. My question still stands on the Strongheart Halflings (like regular halflings, but give up save bonus for a bonus feat) and the feats in Complete Warrior (specifically Swarmfighting.)

If that's allowed then all my halflings are that, and they all take that feat as their bonus feat.

Also, sounds like modifications will be coming soon, especially if dragon shaman gets the go ahead. More buffs = :P

[Silva Stormrage]

Another question. How do we determine terrain type for our keep? Because you can add a lot of price reduction from Stronghold Builder's Guide if you build it in certain areas.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The protectors of the wild:

30 human warriors that are equipped with tower shields made of tough tree bark, handaxes, and hide armor, with the phalanx fighting feat (can you say "tank" loud enough?), and weapon focus (handaxe).

20 human warriors with studded leather, greataxes, and slings (slings are for when laying siege where the enemy's defending), with power attack and improved sunder.

10 human warriors with studded leather, lances, and slings, with light war horses and max ride ranks, feats are mounted combat and mounted archery.

1 adept bolsterer (wife of the leader) with quarterstaff, feats being weapon focus (quarterstaff), and toughness.
Spells prepared: (0 level) cure minor wounds (3), (1st level) bless (2).

And last but not least, 15 human Druids with studded leather armor, scimitars, and slings, with feat being point blank shot, bonus feat is far shot.
Animal companion: war wolf (these are in addition to the 20 war wolves, making it 35).
Spells prepared: (0 level) cure minor wounds (3), (1st level) produce flame (2).

The troops (yes, every single one) all have maxed ranks in handle animal, with a +3 bonus cause of ability score penalty, so they've trained wolves for fighting, they have gotten 20 wolves, which they team up to train (one trainer and the rest using aid another), and they've trained all of them for fighting.
Druid spells typically prepared: same as leader.

Free second level character (the leader): Druid 1/sorc 1 with mwk scimitar.
Sorc spells known: magic missile and sleep.
Druid spells typically prepared: (level 0) create water (1), purify food and drink (2), (level 1) cure light wounds (1), produce flame (1).
Feats: combat expertise and improved trip.
Animal companion: war wolf.
Familiar: owl.

Ability scores:
Tanks: str 13, con 12, dex 11, int 10, wis 9, cha 8..
Chargers and cavalry: str 13, dex 12, con 11, int 10, wis 9, cha 8.
Druid slingers: dex 15, wis 14, str 13, con 12, int 10, cha 8.
Druid/sorc: cha 15, str 14, wis 13, int 12, con 10, dex 8.
Healer: wis 13, str 12, con 11, int 10, dex 9, cha 8.

Equipment cost:
Tanks: 51x30=1,530
Chargers: 45.5x20=910
Cavalry: 140.5x10=1,405
Slingers: 40.5x10=405
Healer: 0x1=0
Total: 4,250
Amount left: 5,750

Cost for 20 wolves: 150x20=3,000

Amount left: 2,750

Other: 6 feather tokens, tree-2,400

Amount left: 350

Is 10,000 gp really enough for buildings? A keep costs 150,000 gp.
Guess I'll spend my building fund on a system of tree houses and wooden towers with rope bridges connecting them. There's also a wide central section that is for the horses, wolves, and tank soldiers, with a tower in it with rope bridges connecting it to all the tree forts and towers, minus one, that'll be the leader's tower, it'll still be connected to two other tree forts, to allow more than one way in and out. Entire thing is made of oak.

Attacks:
Tanks: handaxe +3, 1d6+1, crit x3.
Chargers: sling +3, 1d4+1, greataxe +3, 1d12+1, crit x3.
Cavalry: sling +3, 1d4+1, lance +3, 1d8+1, double damage on mounted charge, crit x3.
Adept slingers: sling +2, 1d4+1, scimitar +1, 1d6+1, crit 18-20.

Groups:
Patrol: 6 tanks and 4 chargers.
Scouts/trackers: 2 wolves, 2 Druid slingers, 2 chargers, 2 cavalry.
Strike force: 4 wolves and 4 light cavalry.
Warband: 10 tanks, 5 chargers, 4 Druid slingers, 2 wolves, 2 light cavalry.
Command retinue: leader, bolsterer, 2 tanks.

Typical tactics: tanks tanking, using the total cover ability of their tower shields against ranged attacks until after enemies charge, then attacking the melee soldiers. Chargers charging if enemy is in the open, slinging if not, if charging, first thing they do is sunder an opponents weapon or shield. Druid slingers using slings and produce flame. The war wolves are used as a strike force for pre-battle raids on supplies in forests, the cavalry serves that purpose in plains.

Also, can my terrain be forest rather than plains?

[Squally!]

All purchased troops are level 1, and must be of a single race.

Sadly, cant mix races as you please :(

[Hiro Protagonest]

Sadly, cant mix races as you please :(

Ah, sorry.

EDIT: changed 'em all to human.

EDIT: changed slingers from warriors to adepts, beat that!:smalltongue:

EDIT: gave every soldier and adept max ranks in handle animal and had them train wolves as a strike force!:smallbiggrin:

EDIT: changed flavor to wilderness protectors and the cleric/sorc to a Druid/sorc.

[Silva Stormrage]

EDIT: gave every soldier and adept max ranks in handle animal and had them train wolves as a strike force!:smallbiggrin:


Im pretty sure you don't want to start that battle, if we are allowed to use handle animal like that it could get ugly really fast. As someone pointed out earlier in the thread commoners probably have handle animal due to farming. Ignoring commoners even a pure army focused on it would gain a huge amount of animals. An expert with animal affinity, skill focus handle animal, a masterwork item, and a 12 in charisma would have a skill rank of 4 + 1 + 3 + 2 + 2 for a total of + 12. Taming Dire Eagles (Just an example there are probably far better options) has a 60% chance of getting one. That means 66 dire eagles for that army + 111 Warriors that can still fight in their own right. On a side note if this is allowed this is probably my army :smallbiggrin:.

Also as another side note, what would the rules be on multiple small riders on a large mount? I want to get a group of archers on horse back and want to conserve money (Im a cheapskate) so less horses is better and I want to use halflings.

[Demidos]

Hey Silva!
Well, as was pointed out earlier in the thread, mules are cheaper:smallbiggrin:

What do you think of this?
Forestkeepers

Humans

31 Druids lvl 1
each with wild cohort, skill focus handle animal
so 62 wolves, plus handle animal (+4+2+3+2 (marshal) =11), 8/20 fail, so 60% retention rate for training from birth, so .60*3*31=56 wolves
so 118 wolves

2 Bards lvl 1
feats same as druid
(about 3+2) 5 more wolves

1 Marshal lvl 2
same as druid
+2.5 wolves average

so about 135 wolves, plus 31 druids (obscuring mists and goodberries and stuff), 2 bards, and the marshal (bards and marshal give +2 to hit, +1 damage across the board, as well as a +2 to trip for the wolves)

All using no money so far:smallwink:

[Silva Stormrage]

Hey Silva!
Well, as was pointed out earlier in the thread, mules are cheaper:smallbiggrin:

What do you think of this?
Forestkeepers

Humans

31 Druids lvl 1
each with wild cohort, skill focus handle animal
so 62 wolves, plus handle animal (+4+2+3+2 (marshal) =11), 8/20 fail, so 60% retention rate for training from birth, so .60*3*31=56 wolves
so 118 wolves

2 Bards lvl 1
feats same as druid
(about 3+2) 5 more wolves

1 Marshal lvl 2
same as druid
+2.5 wolves average

so about 135 wolves, plus 31 druids (obscuring mists and goodberries and stuff), 2 bards, and the marshal (bards and marshal give +2 to hit, +1 damage across the board, as well as a +2 to trip for the wolves)

All using no money so far:smallwink:

Heh Hi demidos I did you get my email about this :smallbiggrin:. Now let me tear that army apart :smallsmile:.

First wild cohort isn't allowed. Its not in the approved book list (Nor will it ever probably)

Is marshal in minituares? Was never sure. Otherwise that isn't allowed either.

And finally I was pointing out why handle animal shouldn't work like that :smallbiggrin: I don't think the OP meant this to be a demonstration of how strong handle animal is.

Oh and also as a side note I think I will remove all the druids in my army since if we end up fighting and I win you will claim its them :smallbiggrin:. I will see you on the battle field!

[Demidos]

Heh Hi demidos I did you get my email about this :smallbiggrin:. Now let me tear that army apart :smallsmile:.

First wild cohort isn't allowed. Its not in the approved book list (Nor will it ever probably)

Is marshal in minituares? Was never sure. Otherwise that isn't allowed either.

And finally I was pointing out why handle animal shouldn't work like that :smallbiggrin: I don't think the OP meant this to be a demonstration of how strong handle animal is.

Oh and also as a side note I think I will remove all the druids in my army since if we end up fighting and I win you will claim its them :smallbiggrin:. I will see you on the battle field!


Hey!
Awww....i didnt know which book it was in:smallfrown:
(but marshal works)
Yes, i was carrying your theory to its logical extreme:smalltongue:
(though i think you can actually abuse it more...)
I'm not dumb enough to try to win an optimization battle with you:smallbiggrin:

[Zonugal]

How are we working with Affiliations within the Player's Handbook Two?

[The Winter King]

You dont need to say siege weapons they are in the dmg

[super dark33]

The army of The Great Warlock (reposted and edited from above)

Armorerd swordmen:human fighter lvl 1
Abbilities (using 28 pointbuy):Str:18 con:16 dex:10 and the rest:8
HP:1d10+3 (9)
breastplate 200 gp
longsword: 15 gp
large wooden shield 7 gp
Total:255 gp per Footmen
expended stats:AC:17 Hit bonus:+5 Damage:1d8+4 19-20 X3
Feats:Improved sunder, power attack,Cleave

Footmen:humen warrior
Hp:1d8+3 (7)
Abbilities:using 22 point build:16 str 16 con 10 dex rest 8
Spear:2 Gp
Small wooden shield:3 gp
Chain shirt:100 gp
total:114 gp per unit
Feat:Imp initiative, power attack
Expended stats:AC:15 Hit bonus:+4 Damage:1d8+3 (X3)

Archers:humen warrior
HP:1d8+2 (6)
Abbilities:Str 12 Dex 16 Con 15 rest 8
studded leather armor:25 gp
Club:free
Longbow:75 gp
total:109 gp per unit
Feat:imp. initiative,point blank shot
Expended Stats:AC:16 Hit bounus:+4 Damage:1d8

Battlemages: humen battlemage
HP:4
Abillities:str:8 dex:14 con:12 int:16 wis:6 cha:16
studded Leather armor:25 gp
Spear:2gp
regenats:50 gp
total:107 per unit
Expended stats:Ac:15 hit bonus:+2 for spells,-1 for melee, spells used:hail of stone (1.5 meters area of 1d4 damage),burning hands(9 feet cone 1d4 fire) ,lesser energy orbs (1d8 energy damgage)

every commoner that watches a harmfull spell or frightning illusion, must make a will save (Dc17) or run away. commoners who are doing somthing dangerous must make a will save (Dc 10) or run away (commoners are cowerds, remember that!)
roll will save for every 50 commoners. routing people get the usless special attack bisons have (the runaway overrun thingy).

Can i make myself a level 20 leader for my faction? (the kingdom of the great warlock)

[Hiro Protagonest]

Im pretty sure you don't want to start that battle, if we are allowed to use handle animal like that it could get ugly really fast. As someone pointed out earlier in the thread commoners probably have handle animal due to farming. Ignoring commoners even a pure army focused on it would gain a huge amount of animals. An expert with animal affinity, skill focus handle animal, a masterwork item, and a 12 in charisma would have a skill rank of 4 + 1 + 3 + 2 + 2 for a total of + 12. Taming Dire Eagles (Just an example there are probably far better options) has a 60% chance of getting one. That means 66 dire eagles for that army + 111 Warriors that can still fight in their own right. On a side note if this is allowed this is probably my army :smallbiggrin:.
My guys have max ranks and a charisma penalty, they don't have skill focus or mwk tools, the wolves are supposed to replace light cavalry as a strike force.

Also as another side note, what would the rules be on multiple small riders on a large mount? I want to get a group of archers on horse back and want to conserve money (Im a cheapskate) so less horses is better and I want to use halflings.
You can probably get two on each, however, only one would be able to fire accurately, though you could make it one archer and one melee soldier.

EDIT: added one adept healer to my army.

[Silva Stormrage]

My guys have max ranks and a charisma penalty, they don't have skill focus or mwk tools the, wolves are supposed to replace light cavalry as a strike force.
You can probably get two on each, however, only one would be able to fire accurately, though you could make it one archer and one melee soldier.

EDIT: added one adept healer to my army.

Sorry I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying you were abusing, I was saying that the way you were using Handle animal could be easily abused. Also earlier in the thread I believe the OP said you need to pay for them so each wolf would be 150 gold.


This looks interesting I think I will try to make an army sometime today, just a few quick questions.
What book are strong-heart halflings in?
Are there any plans to review HOH I love the dread necromancer class ?
How do you decide terrain types, because entangle will either be amazingly awesome or completely useless depending on that.
Are flaws and traits allowed? I know SRD is allowed but wanted to make sure. Limit to 2 flaws?
How is initiative handled? Is it just roll for each individual person or roll for a group?

Somewhat related how do you handle two riders on a mount? Two small riders on a large mount? One small rider on a large mount? Those rules never made sense to me.

I think people missed these questions, could someone please answer some for me?

[The Deej]

My revised and re-posted army:

Iathar's Chariot Brigade

Iathar
wood elf bard 1/barbarian 1
STR 15(19), DEX 16, CON 13(17), INT 8, WIS 11, CHA 12
Feats: toughness
Skills: perform (oratory) +5, Knowledge (tactics) +3, spot +6, listen +6, handle animal +3
Attacks:
sling +4 ranged (1d4+2) [+4 ranged (1d4+4)]
longsword +3 melee (1d8+3) [+5 melee (1d8+6)]
AC: 15 [13]
HP: 23[27]
spells known: message, know direction, lullaby, resistance
Gear: leather armor, longsword, sling

*There is one less slinger on the commander's cart.


Lieutenant
Wood elf bard
STR 16, DEX 15, CON 10, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 15
Feats: toughness
Skills: perform (oratory) +6, heal +3,
Attacks:
sling +2 ranged (1d4+3)
longsword +3 melee (1d8+4)
AC: 14
HP: 9
spells known: message, mending, lullaby, resistance
Gear:
leather armor, longsword, sling


Chariot Driver
Wood elf warrior
STR 13, DEX 15, CON 10, INT 8, WIS 9, CHA 8
Feats: Mounted Combat
Skills: Ride +6, Handle Animal +3
AC: 16
HP: 8
Gear: Tower shield, 2x light war horse, "chariot"


Passenger
Wood elf warrior
STR 15, DEX 14, CON 11, INT 8, WIS 9, CHA 8
Feats: toughness
Skills: Spot +2
Attacks:
sling +3 ranged (1d4+2)
longsword +3 melee (1d8+3)
AC: 14
HP: 11
Gear:
leather armor, longsword, sling


Support caster
Wood elf adept
STR 10, DEX 13, CON 11, INT 7, WIS 12, CHA 8
Feats: toughness
Skills: Heal +5
Attacks:
sling +1 ranged (1d4+0)
longsword +0 melee (1d8+0)
AC: 13
HP: 9
Typical spells prepped: cure minor wounds x3, sleep, cure light wounds
Gear:
leather armor,longsword, sling


Siege crew
wood elf warrior (3x)
STR 15, DEX 13, CON 10, INT 10, WIS 9, CHA 8
Feats: skill focus (siege engineer)
attacks: club +3 melee (1d6+3)
AC: 11
HP: 8
Skills: Profession (siege engineer) +6, handle animal +3
Gear (shared): light catapult + rocks, 2x mule, cart, clubs


Organization of chariots
Chariots have passengers seated as follows (viewed from above):

Iathar's chariot
____
|P I |D=HORSE
|P A|_=HORSE

Lieutenant's chariot
____
|P L|D=HORSE
|P A|P=HORSE

standard chariot
____
|P P|D=HORSE
|P A|P=HORSE

============================
P= passenger
D= driver
A= adept
L= Lieutenant
I= Iathar (commander)

Chariots are crafted by purchasing station wagons, then using saws to cut the tops off, leaving walls high enough that the passengers still have cover.


Each chariot has an adept seated in a position where he can tend to any other passenger, should they get injured. Iathar leads a formation of 5 chariots, and his 3 lieutenants each lead a formation of 4 chariots

changelog:
-fixed some typos.
-added clubs to siege crew for self-defense
-changed damage stats of longswords to account for 2-handing

[The Deej]

Forgive the double post, but I didn't want to clutter up my army description.


What book are strong-heart halflings in?
Forgotten realms campaign setting


Are there any plans to review HOH I love the dread necromancer class ?
not sure if Tyndmyr has that on his review ledger or not, but it currently is not approved.


]How do you decide terrain types
standard terrain is flat open plains for everywhere. If you want different terrain around your keep, buy shovels/tools/whatever else needed to change it.


Are flaws and traits allowed? I know SRD is allowed but wanted to make sure. Limit to 2 flaws?
I'm pretty sure Tyndmyr said to avoid these. I'm guessing too much cheese potential. Also, it's CORE that's allowed. Anything in SRD that isn't also in PHB, DMG, or MM is not automatically allowed.


How is initiative handled? Is it just roll for each individual person or roll for a group?
Players choice, but squad-based initiative is encouraged to speed things up.


Somewhat related how do you handle two riders on a mount? Two small riders on a large mount? One small rider on a large mount? Those rules never made sense to me.

normally it's one person on one mount that is one size category larger (eg. human on large-sized horse, halfling on medium-sized riding dog, etc.). If you're doing something other than this, I'm pretty sure there are penalties that come into play.

[Silva Stormrage]

My revised and re-posted army:

Iathar's Chariot Brigade
Edit: fixed some typos.


Hey How fast do those station wagons go? I couldn't find it on the SRD. Looks like an interesting army though. Would the passengers get the penalties for archery while mounted if the mount double moves?


Edit: Also thank you for answering my questions :smallbiggrin:

[The Deej]

Their speed depends on what pulls them, I think. Since mine are pulled by light war horses (60ft move speed), even if encumbered, they're still pretty darn fast compared to infantry.

And I'm not sure if they would take the penalties, but if they did it would still only apply if they double moved. The larger point is their mobility, though. They can sling at non-mounted melee types all day while essentially saying "Nyah Nyah! Can't catch me!"

[crowe]

Apologies if this has already been covered, what are the starting hit points? is it max hd, or average hd?

[Silva Stormrage]

Apologies if this has already been covered, what are the starting hit points? is it max hd, or average hd?

I believe its max for pc classes average for npc

[Zonugal]

So doing some basic calculations with the Stronghold Builder's Guide there is no way to legitimate build an actual keep. The walls alone will break your budget.

[Silva Stormrage]

So doing some basic calculations with the Stronghold Builder's Guide there is no way to legitimate build an actual keep. The walls alone will break your budget.

Ya I noticed that too, I mean I ended up just having some stables and barracks spread out in a village type city... Which fits for my army but still would prefer to have an actual keep.

[The Winter King]

Not if you build it out of wood. Wood walls are free on the ground level and hewn stone walls are free for the first basement level, but yeah the budget for keeps suck at the moment, even the example cheap keep in the book is 70k :smallfrown:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Sorry I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying you were abusing, I was saying that the way you were using Handle animal could be easily abused.I didn't misunderstand, and technically, it can't be abused, because if they have a charisma bonus, that means they have to give up a bonus in a physical ability.
Also earlier in the thread I believe the OP said you need to pay for them so each wolf would be 150 gold.

I have a wilderness themed army! They should be there already! I would be fine if I had to pay for stables or something similar though, I mean, I have 4,000+ gp left in the equipment fund, and all 10,000 in the buildings fund.

Also, Tyndmyr, since my army's wilderness themed, can starting terrain be forest?

[Silva Stormrage]

I didn't misunderstand, and technically, it can't be abused, because if they have a charisma bonus, that means they have to give up a bonus in a physical ability.
I have a wilderness themed army! They should be there already! I would be fine if I had to pay for stables or something similar though, I mean, I have 4,000+ gp left in the equipment fund, and all 10,000 in the buildings fund.

Also, Tyndmyr, since my army's wilderness themed, can starting terrain be forest?

Yes it totally can be abused, a 111 army of warriors who just tame pets is stronger than any other army that didn't in my opinion. A penalty for a physical stat? Rly? So a + 1 to hit and damage is equal to 1 extra hd on a pet?

If the warrior army mentioned above has animal affinity handle animal and the pc is a marshal for + 2 on charisma based checks that is an absurd amount of pets.
Thats 3 (feat) + 2 (Marshal) + 4 (Ranks) + 1 (Ability) + 2 (Animal Affinity) for a total of 12 meaning if you take ten (No reason you can't not rushed in any way) that can tame a 7hd creature with a 100% successes chance. That means they can have 111 tigers. Which are all CR 4. Each one can hit 5 times usually killing a solider if it hits. So ya it can easily be abused if you don't have to pay for the wolves. Also stables are 1000gp for 6 horses, wolves probably would be easier to keep though. Why are you so vehemently against paying for your wolves? You have to feed them you know...

[Hiro Protagonest]

Yes it totally can be abused, a 111 army of warriors who just tame pets is stronger than any other army that didn't in my opinion. A penalty for a physical stat? Rly? So a + 1 to hit and damage is equal to 1 extra hd on a pet?

If the warrior army mentioned above has animal affinity handle animal and the pc is a marshal for + 2 on charisma based checks that is an absurd amount of pets.
Thats 3 (feat) + 2 (Marshal) + 4 (Ranks) + 1 (Ability) + 2 (Animal Affinity) for a total of 12 meaning if you take ten (No reason you can't not rushed in any way) that can tame a 7hd creature with a 100% successes chance. That means they can have 111 tigers. Which are all CR 4. Each one can hit 5 times usually killing a solider if it hits. So ya it can easily be abused if you don't have to pay for the wolves.Oh...:smalleek:
Also stables are 1000gp for 6 horses, wolves probably would be easier to keep though. Why are you so vehemently against paying for your wolves? You have to feed them you know...
I'm not that opposed, I just don't entirely get it, with my army's theme and all. As I said, I still have a ton of money, I'll pay for wolves.

EDIT: payed for 22 wolves.

[Zonugal]

Looking at the necessary funds and battle tactics I may disregard any idea of building a traditional keep, and instead put my efforts towards building some sort of Helms Deep-like area designed to survive attacks like a mountain towards the sea.

Oh, this shall be glorious.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Looking at the necessary funds and battle tactics I may disregard any idea of building a traditional keep, and instead put my efforts towards building some sort of Helms Deep-like area designed to survive attacks like a mountain towards the sea.

Oh, this shall be glorious.

Oh man, that sounds like Salamandastron, I LOVE IT!:smallbiggrin:
Unfortunately, this won't work, simply because of the labor involved in carving a tunnel system into solid stone.

[The Deej]

I believe its max for pc classes average for npc

Actually, no. Back on page 3, Tyndmyr said max HP for everyone.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I took out two of the wolves, making it 20, and turned 10 of the infantry into light cavalry!:smallbiggrin:

I also added my fort, a series of wooden towers that have rope bridges connecting them. If my terrain is forest, it's tree forts rather than towers.

[JeminiZero]

OK, I need to double check the rules on formation fighting and Tower Shields correct:

-If they possess a tower shield, a Row of men can use it to gain total cover against all foes on one side. According to D&D FAQ (an excerpt can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3998537&postcount=4)), this requires a standard action, so you can take a move action while doing so (aka the Marching Turtle Formation).

-Additionally, the FAQ states that Total Cover only applies to attacks coming through one side of your square, and not through corners of your square. Which means that in theory, a line of enemies directly adjacent to your line of Tower Shields can still attack, simply by attacking diagonally instead of straight. It might be houseruled that a line of men blocks corner attacks as well, except at the edges of the line, since a solid line of tower shields aren't covered in FAQ. But otherwise as it stands, Tower Shield Turtling becomes practically useless in melee (since by RAW doesn't actually stop enemy melee), and far less useful for ranged attacks (since a line of archers can maneuver until their attacks go through the corners of squares as well).

-If they are not hiding behind their tower shields, the 1st row can make ranged and melee attacks without any penalties.

-If the 1st row is not hiding behind their tower shields, the rears rows (i.e. behind the first, the second row and beyond) can make melee attacks over the first row with no penalty.

-If the 1st row is not hiding behind their tower shields, the rear rows can make ranged attacks. But the enemy always counts as having cover (and gaining +4 AC) since their comrades in front count as "soft cover". Additionally, if the enemy is within 10 ft of the first row (or other friendly forces), they take a -4 penalty for shooting into melee, unless they have the precise shot feat.

-If the 1st row IS hiding behind tower shields, then the tower shields block off straight lines of attack. The Rear Rows might or might not be able to make attacks through the corners of squares, depending on the ruling above.

-All the above applies to both the 2nd and 3rd row. There is no additional penalty for having more than 1 row in front of you. (Except that the 3rd row must likely be using ranged weapon, since they can't reach that far forward even with a reach weapon).

-By RAW, in theory there is no limit to how far back you can be and still attack. So normally the 4th, 5th and 6th etc row can also make attacks. But within this experiment (and to limit the Halfling commoner horde), Tyndmyr is limiting attacks to just the first 3 rows.