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shadmere
2011-02-16, 04:37 PM
I'm in a campaign right now where I play a level 12 Cleric (one level of fighter, eleven cleric) that keeps six persisted spells on him at all times and likes to wade into battle with a giant sword. I may soon have to nerf myself a bit, as in the last game I noticed a couple of the other players staring at me in disbelief. I don't mind that. I built my character intending him to be strong, and I'd like to be the "strongest," but I have no desire to reduce the other players to trivial parts.

Anyway, I didn't really start my character with any intent towards optimization. When I was level three or four, I realized how amazing Divine Metamagic could be, so I worked my way towards that, but I didn't plan the character out in advance, really.

What I'm wondering is how powerful a Cleric could be at level 12. What would a really optimized cleric look like? Nothing blatantly broken, no infinite loops. But other than that, I mean. I'm wondering where I'm at on the scale. :smalltongue:

Hyfigh
2011-02-16, 04:49 PM
Cleric are one of the tier one classes - right up there with Wizard and Druid. A well optimized cleric, even at level 12, can dominate CR appropriate encounters to a trivial point. They have the power to do anything they want, and pretty much at any time they'd like to get it done...

Essentially, a well built level 12 cleric can functionally break a game more easily than most other classes.

shadmere
2011-02-16, 04:52 PM
...how would I go about building one of those?

I can't imagine actually playing him, except maybe as a joke (pull out some sort of world shattering ability, use it, then be like "Yeah ok, nevermind."). But I'd love to know what an optimized build actually looked like. :smallsmile:

Hyfigh
2011-02-16, 05:10 PM
Well... You've actually hit one of the more common themes. DMM is a nasty trick when used to it's full effect.

Personally, I would have: not taken a level of fighter, been a cloistered cleric, and taken the undeath domain (is that right? The one that gives additional turn attemptsm anyways...). The more turn attempts you have to burn on persisting magic effects, the better. Don't spend all of them buffing early in the day - cherry pick spells that you will need. Divination magic is a huge benefit, as well. A feat like obtain familiar can get you an imp to eliminate your need to burn spells on Commune, not that this is at all an issue. PrC'ing isn't much of a problem at any time. Just make sure you don't lose more than one caster level; and if you do lose a caster level, make sure that the benefits out weigh slowing your casting progression.

With just the small bit I've presented above you out-melee the Fighter, have save or lose spells, and don't have to waste as much money on magic items for desired effects like flying. Likewise, you can determine what you're going to be fighting before you fight it which will allow you to prepare ahead of time a proper killing strategy.

Qwertystop
2011-02-16, 05:14 PM
Well... You've actually hit one of the more common themes. DMM is a nasty trick when used to it's full effect.


What's DMM? I've heard it used a lot on these forums, but I can't find anything that fits the abbreviation.

Gavinfoxx
2011-02-16, 05:17 PM
Divine MetaMagic

There's lots of jargon used on these forums...

Qwertystop
2011-02-16, 05:21 PM
Divine MetaMagic

There's lots of jargon used on these forums...

Oh, that explains it. I was looking for a feat that specifically allowed persisted spells, when it's an abbreviation for a whole category of stuff.

Force
2011-02-16, 05:25 PM
Take the Radiant Servant prestige class instead of fighter. If you can persuade your DM to let you use Greater Turning attempts as Turn Undead for DMM, that's extra turning attempts, some nice class abilities, and martial weapons proficiencies. Tradeoff is d6 HD, and you'll need extra turning (which you should already have) but it's a nice PrC.

gbprime
2011-02-16, 05:31 PM
And a good DM will know the two things that mess up a persist (DMM) cleric's day... Dispel Magic and Reciprocal Gyre.

Our group was in a climactic "boss fight" this past weekend, when the enemy wizard whips out a Maximized Reciprocal Gyre on our main tank. 250 points.

Thank goodness for Revivify. And that Metamagic Rod of Maximize we pried off the wizard's corpse is going to be put to good use. :smallamused:

navar100
2011-02-16, 05:35 PM
If you would like to tone down your cleric but not too much, ask your DM to allow you to change Persistent Spell to Quicken Spell as well as Divine Metamagic for it. Keep Extend Spell since that is still useful. You'll get about the same effect as you had since it's only a swift action to use, but you can use it on any spell. That allows you to use some Divine Metamagic Quicken attack spells or buff a party member spells. Still powerful, but now you're not a warrior juggernaut all the time.

In one round you can cast Divine Metamagic Quicken Mass Bear's Endurance and a regular Mass Bull's Strength, allowing you to buff everyone in the party as a good team player.

To add insult to injury to your enemy, cast Divine Metamagic Quicken Harm then the 0 level spell Cause Minor Wound.

Critical
2011-02-16, 05:38 PM
First of all, what classes are your fellow players?

Hyfigh
2011-02-16, 05:44 PM
First of all, what classes are your fellow players?

I'm curious what this has to do with the OP... :smallconfused: He's just asking for what kind of power a level 12 cleric can see. He isn't attempting to build one. The power level of the rest of his party really has no bearing on a TO question.

Fox Box Socks
2011-02-16, 06:01 PM
A common complaint about 3.5 is that it breaks down around level 11. The Linear Fighter Quadratic Wizard problem only kicks in around level 7 or so, but by the time the dedicated casters have hit level 11, they've eclipsed the martial classes to the point where they simply cannot ever catch up. Moreover, 6th level spells are so mind-numbingly powerful that a well-placed spell can end not just sessions, but entire adventures (DM preparing a pirate-themed series of adventures as the party sails across the seas to the forbidden continent? Plane Shift).

Basically, if your DM has to go out of his way to make sure that you don't absolutely wreck his adventures, then you are probably already strong enough. I wouldn't worry too much about how strong you are, because it sounds like you're the strongest guy at the table.

Urpriest
2011-02-16, 08:24 PM
A feat like obtain familiar can get you an imp to eliminate your need to burn spells on Commune, not that this is at all an issue.

How are you getting Obtain Familiar on a divine caster?

Anyway, a 12th level cleric can pull a lot of the Batman Wizard tricks: use divination spells to figure out what's going to happen, then pick the perfect spell for the occasion. Buff yourself so that almost nothing can hit you. I think the basic skeleton of the Cheater of Mystra can work at this level: levels in Dweomerkeeper give you the ability to cast a Supernatural (read: can't be dispelled) Antimagic Field, while Initiate of Mystra means you can cast as if it weren't there. That's probably the cheesiest thing you can do as a 12th level cleric. Also, abuse Planar Ally like there's no tomorrow. Granting Wishes is not a particularly demanding task, it's just using a single spell-like ability!

shadmere
2011-02-17, 08:40 AM
First of all, what classes are your fellow players?

A monk, a rogue, and a ranger.

The monk used to be playing a druid, but switched to monk because she kept getting the druid killed and thinks they're underpowered. The rogue used to be playing a wizard, but switched to rogue because he felt like he wasn't useful enough.

I didn't change anything, because re-rolling would either mean I was going for a purposefully less powerful character or a purposefully more powerful one. I couldn't bring myself to do the first, and didn't think it would be fair to do the second.

About half of my persisted spells are things that buff the entire party, giving extra attack rolls, damage, saves, and the like. The other half goes towards flying, DR, and personal strength.

Hrm. I've never thought of using divination like that. I doubt I will, except potentially for boss fights. I don't want to completely ruin the DM's day. :smalltongue:

Just to clarify: I wasn't asking for information so that I could become more powerful. I'm definitely not worried about that. I don't even use a few abilities I have because I don't want to end fights too quickly. (I do keep them around for emergencies, haha.) I was just curious about what else I could have done. :smallsmile:

Yuki Akuma
2011-02-17, 08:46 AM
Well that explains why you're dominating the game, then. You have a Monk.

(Hilariously, Druids are on par with Clerics. Monks are... not. Wizards are also on par with Clerics. Rogues are... not.)

Last Laugh
2011-02-17, 08:55 AM
A monk, a rogue, and a ranger.

The monk used to be playing a druid, but switched to monk because she kept getting the druid killed and thinks they're underpowered. The rogue used to be playing a wizard, but switched to rogue because he felt like he wasn't useful enough.


This right here, this makes me giggle.

I'm also curious about how you managed to get 6 persisted spells? Doesn't that take like 42 turn attempts (7/spell?) Just lots of Extra Turning? Or do you have a nightstick stash?

shadmere
2011-02-17, 09:18 AM
I've got one nightstick. Decided that buying more would be too cheesy and game-breaky. I extend each persisted spell with an extend metamagic rod, though. I couldn't find anything that implied that wasn't possible. So each day I extend-persist three spells, and the next day I extend-persist the other three.

If that doesn't work, let me know. :smallsmile:

Eldariel
2011-02-17, 09:45 AM
You can have 7 levels of Dweomerkeeper by level 12. One level of Church Inquisitor, for the free Domain, I suppose. This is not using any blatant cheese, mind; it would be easy enough to gain access to higher level spell slots and other bull**** by those levels but sticking to just level 12 Cleric.

You can easily be immortal with certain spells and with Initiate of Mystra + Supernatural Spell, you're actually immortal against anything short of Disjunction; AMFs do nothing to Initiate and you're completely immune to Dispels. You can pump your caster level to low 20s (and then there's the goddamn Consumptive Field) and you can have a very broad spell list; Spell-domain gives you a cripton of spell access and you have other Domains to access with 4 already just from Cloistered Cleric + Church Inquisitor. You can spontaneously cast out of one without a cost and then 3 others for Turn-attempts if you so desire.

Your key buffs (let's use the good ol' Delay Death + Woodland Ferocity immortality with Ocular Spell and Reach Spell to persist anything) will be undispellable thanks to Supernatural Spell, and the rest will be only dispellable by focused Abjurers or extremely high-leveled And you're in AMF 24/7 (make it Widened for good measure), giving you a measure of protection from Disjunctions making them unlikely to work before CL 50s or so. We can craft Contingent Spells of AMF to trigger once the old ones vanish so we enjoy solid AMF-based protection with no adverse effects to us.

In other words, you have a Clericzilla's buff suite while anybody fighting you with weapons will have to do so without magic and anybody fighting you with magic has to act through your AMF against you full spell protections (hint: It's not easy). Incantatrixes can pose a measure of problem by being able to alter your AMFs or steal and dismiss them but other than that, few things can truly threaten you.


This is basically the premise of the Twice-Betrayer married with the Cheater combined with a standard buff suite to go with your immortality (it's academic since Cleric buffs are good and if you make yourself immortal, it's easy enough to become offensively strong enough to destroy anything). Even another Initiate of Mystra would have trouble penetrating your defenses thanks to Dweomerkeeper. Even another Dweomerkeeper Initiate would be hurting for tools. Call the Incantatrix.

Yora
2011-02-17, 09:49 AM
Personally, I would have: not taken a level of fighter, been a cloistered cleric, and taken the undeath domain (is that right? The one that gives additional turn attemptsm anyways...). The more turn attempts you have to burn on persisting magic effects, the better.
Does that even matter? I think in hardcore optimization, it's assumed that you carry a few dozens of nightsticks with you and don't try to supply your own turning attempts.

Eldariel
2011-02-17, 09:54 AM
Does that even matter? I think in hardcore optimization, it's assumed that you carry a few dozens of nightsticks with you and don't try to supply your own turning attempts.

Depends. Generally, you just can't afford all that much Turning of your own with all the feats you wanna pick up, so most builds do use Nightsticks. Self-sufficiency and item independence are of course positive things far as optimization goes tho, so it just depends on whether you can afford enough turn attempts or not. Generally, the cost of Nightsticks (esp. crafted) is so low though that you really just use your Cha+3 and maybe some Domain-bonuses out of your own and fill the rest in with sticks.

Yora
2011-02-17, 09:56 AM
What? You're talking about self suficiency? This only matters in actual games. True optimization has no place for practical concerns. :smallbiggrin:

Kaww
2011-02-17, 09:59 AM
And a good DM will know the two things that mess up a persist (DMM) cleric's day... Dispel Magic and Reciprocal Gyre.

Our group was in a climactic "boss fight" this past weekend, when the enemy wizard whips out a Maximized Reciprocal Gyre on our main tank. 250 points.

Thank goodness for Revivify. And that Metamagic Rod of Maximize we pried off the wizard's corpse is going to be put to good use. :smallamused:

You should be more evil than that...

Try Spell compendium pg.169. It is lvl 9, but it's just some 4k gp your BBEG invested...

shadmere
2011-02-17, 10:01 AM
Description of Clericzilla.

Holy crap! :smalleek:

Hahaha, wow, that's amazing.

What the heck is Woodland Ferocity? Can't find references to it online. What book's it from, or what's the basic idea?

Eldariel
2011-02-17, 10:25 AM
What? You're talking about self suficiency? This only matters in actual games. True optimization has no place for practical concerns. :smallbiggrin:

Heh. It's just that the WBL makes you wanna use that potential; such a waste not to.


Holy crap! :smalleek:

Hahaha, wow, that's amazing.

What the heck is Woodland Ferocity? Can't find references to it online. What book's it from, or what's the basic idea?

It's Something Ferocity; don't remember which one. Makes you able to act at under 0 HP normally.

EDIT: Ok, Beastland Ferocity. Close enough.

Psyren
2011-02-17, 11:24 AM
Has anyone linked the Cleric Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0) yet?

Hyfigh
2011-02-17, 11:26 AM
Has anyone linked the Cleric Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0) yet?

Heh. Good call. :smalltongue: