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View Full Version : Bones of Hellfire, Flesh of Madness, Pacts of the Forbidden [3.5 Prestige Classes]



TheGeckoKing
2011-02-16, 06:50 PM
The Damned Mortician

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu89/Gecko-King/Corvus_Promaethon_by_daarken.jpg
I think to the past, foolish Paladin, of torment from the people I called "family" and of unaccepting my blood and my talents. I think of now, my glorious legions spanning the entire land, making their master proud and destroying the place you call home. And what do I see when I think of the future?
One more dead man, MARCHING BECAUSE I WILL IT TO BE! - Corax Bloodmarrow, a Damned Mortician, before gaining a new general for his armies.

The Damned Morticians are hybrids of two magical powers, like the Eldritch Theruges that appear now and again in history. However, they specifically blend necromancy with their blood-born power, in a way that is unlike other necromancers. Although they are hated and run the risk of eternal torture in the Hells or in the Abyss, the Damned Morticians do not care. They know of the risks as soon as they learn the name of the Damned Morticians, but they simply take it in their blood-stained stride. Damnation, undeath, and eternal torture are the tools of choice for a Damned Mortician, just as they like it.

Becoming a Damned Mortician
Normally one becomes a Damned Mortician after finding an affinity with undead, and either writing up a pact for infernal powers, or pursuing necromantic power.

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Alignment: Ay non-good.
Skills: Knowledge (Religion) 4 ranks.
Eldritch Blast damage: 2d6.
Special: Must have the Charnel Touch class ability.

Class Skills
The Damned Mortician's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Disguise (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skills Points at Each Level: 4 + int

Hit Dice: d6

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Eldritch Dread, Infernal Necromancy, The Dead Shall Walk

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Corpsecrafter, Mortician's Blast

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3|
---

4th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|Baleful Aura

5th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|Malevolence Blast

6th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+5|
---

7th|
+5|
+2|
+2|
+5|The Dead Shall Persist

8th|
+6|
+2|
+2|
+6|Corpsecrafter, Infernal Bones

9th|
+6|
+3|
+3|
+6|
---

10th|
+7|
+3|
+3|
+7|Necrotic Hellborn, The Dead Never End[/table]

{table="head"]Level|Invoking|Spellcasting
1st|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
2nd|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
3rd|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
4th|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
5th|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
6th|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
7th|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
8th|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
9th|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
10th|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
[/table]

Eldritch Dread: Levels in Damned Mortician stack with Warlock levels to determine the amount of damage the Damned Mortician does with his Eldritch Blast, and they also stack with his Dread Necromancer levels to determine how good he is at Rebuking Undead, how damaging his Charnel Touch is, and any bonuses/changes to his Familar (if he has one).

Infernal Necromancy: At each level, a Damned Mortician gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) and new invocations known as if she had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class and an invoking class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If she had more than one arcane spellcasting/invoking class before becoming a Damned Mortician, he must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day, spells known and invocations known.

Secondly, the Damned Mortician's undead raising skills are unparalleled, and they can mix multiple magics to make dead men walk. The Damned Mortician uses the total amout of levels they have in either Warlock, Dread Necromancer, and any class that would progress Warlock Invocations/Dread Necromancer Spellcasting (like this class) to determine their effective caster level when animating/controlling undead. The Damned Mortician's effective caster level can never be raised to a level higher than their character level because of this ability.

Lastly, at 10th level, the distinction between Eldritch and Negative is all but gone. When the Damned Mortician would take a class that they qualify for and would progress one spellcasting class's spellcasting abilities (and only one class at a time), they may choose to instead use this class's spellcasting progression instead, effectively progressing their Invoking and Spellcasting.

The Dead Shall Walk: The Damned Mortician gains The Dead Walk as a bonus invocation, if they don't already know it.

Corpsecrafter: At 2nd and 8th level, the Damned Mortician gains a bonus feat, but it must be the Corpsecrafter feat, or have the Corpsecrafter feat as a prerequisite.

Mortician's Blast(Su): At 2nd level, when the Damned Mortician uses his Eldritch Blast, he may also apply their Charnel Touch's effect to the blast, making it a Mortician's Blast. However, if he does, the full damage is Negative Energy damage, and thus undead hit by his Mortician's Blast are instead healed by the same amount. This makes his Eldritch Blast an (Su) ability when used, but is not considered a Blast Essence (So he can still apply one to his Mortician's Blast).

Baleful Aura(Su): At 4th level, the Damned Mortician extrudes an aura of necrotic energies and eldritch power that bolsters all undead near him. The Damned Mortician constantly emits a Desecrate spell (Caster Level equal to character level), with the Damned Mortician at the center of it.

Malevolence Blast(Su): At 5th level, the Damned Mortician learns how to animate the bones in the living, and force them to move beyond what was meant for bones to bend. When the Damned Mortician successfully damages a living creature that has a discernible skeleton with his Eldritch/Mortician's Blast, it also deals 1 point of Con Damage (Fort Save to negate). At 10th level, this becomes 1d4 points of Con Damage instead (Fort Save, but only to halve, minimum 1).

The Dead Shall Persist(Su): At 7th level, any undead animated by your The Dead Walk invocation without the material component do not crumble to dust after the normal limit, but stay animated under your control for one hour per effective caster level for undead animation (see Infernal Necromancy). At 9th level, the undead animated by their The Dead Walk invocation stay indefinitely.

Infernal Bones(Su): At 8th level, the Damned Mortician can share his ''gift'' with his legions. Any undead the Damned Mortician animates gains the Fiendish Creature template (The undead still remains the same with regards to the maximum limit of undead the Damned Mortician can animate under his control). The template applied by this ability does not give the Undead animated an Int score, however.

Necrotic Hellborn: At 10th level, the Damned Mortician combines his fiendish taint and lordship over the powers of undeath to create a new form for himself. The Damned Mortician gains the Lich template (Free of LA), and the Extraplanar subtype, native to a layer of Hell or the Abyss, chosen by the Damned Mortician. The Damned Mortician must have a suitable object for his Phylactery but does not have to pay Gold/XP to turn it into a phylactery, like normal liches. He also gains bat-like wings at this level, granting him a flight speed 60ft (Good).

The Dead Never End(Su): At 10th level, the Damned Mortician endlessly creates undead, and increases his control pool to match. The Damned Mortician adds his Charisma Modifier to his caster level to determine how many undead the Damned Mortician can control/create.

Dante & Vergil
2011-02-16, 07:14 PM
Wow, this is really flavorful and really cool! My only suggestion would be to include something that allows it to gain the Dread Necro's Undead Mastery ability, and allow this class' levels, Warlock levels, and Dread Necromancer levels stack for determining how much you get out of it.

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-17, 10:37 AM
Oooo, I forgot that. I'll try to fit it in.

Lix Lorn
2011-02-17, 10:45 AM
Does EB increase as well as invocations?
Either way, like the class.

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-17, 10:51 AM
Well, now it does, an i've added The Dead Never End in at the end to boot.

Re'ozul
2011-02-17, 01:04 PM
Oh, I like this very much.
Dread Warlock is one of my favourite combinations.

Things I noticed and have questions about:

Mortician's blast:
Does this make the blast and Su ability, bypassing SR?
Is it considered and essence?
Does it mean that in addition to your normal Xd6 damage you do 1d8+1/4Classlevels extra damage to non-undead and heal undead an extra 1/4classlevel?
Can the full blast be used to heal undead? (thinking about chain and blasts)

Malevolence Blast:
No save?
How is "being hit" treated with blast-shapes?

Necrotic Hellborn: (probably just me being not well informed)
What paralyzing touch?

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-17, 01:08 PM
Mortician's Blast;
In order, I guess so, no, yes, yes
I had better clarify on that, I think.

Malevolence Blast;
No save - Wizards have been smacking ability scores into dust by now, methinks. Actually, I'll give it a save for balance's sake.
Uuuggggg......i'll figure something out.

Necrotic Hellborn;
It's a special ability you get when you become a Lich, basically.

Darth Stabber
2011-02-17, 02:15 PM
Delicious Villiany! I have a small country, in one of my games, heavily populated with necromancer types, and they just found their new king. Best part, only 1 level of Dread Necro needed. This is how theurges should operate.

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-17, 02:20 PM
Glad you like it, and i'm glad I didn't add too much cheese, to make the Theurge-y class useable.
EDIT: Wondering, would anyone be interested if I made a Warlock/Beguiler and/or a Warlock/Warmage theurge?

Dante & Vergil
2011-02-18, 12:37 AM
Nice new ability, and I say yes to Beguiler and Warmage theurges, though I would look up a Warmage fix before doing that one, as it isn't as strong as the other two. This Warmage fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8699451) is pretty awesome.

Milo v3
2011-02-18, 12:44 AM
Love it. It fits with Necromancers and warlocks flavour-wise. It seems balanced. And its amazingly cool. A definite add to my campagin.:smallbiggrin:
Note: Now I just have to try and make it fit in a "Frank & K" game.

Dante & Vergil
2011-02-18, 06:14 AM
Note: Now I just have to try and make it fit in a "Frank & K" game.

If you do that, replace the Complete Arcane Warlock with theirs. It's over at their site.

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-18, 02:57 PM
The Lord of Eldritch War

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3443/3819550149_9dc9254ab1.jpg
I have seen before the beginning, past the end, and in between the parameters of infinity. And I see but good fuel to be burnt - Elderaz, a Lord of Eldritch War

Warmages have problems with their magic, because for all their military training and all their practise, simply incinerating things in the way they do gets them nowhere but smothered in burnt corpses. They want MORE. They want to be surrounded by ash. Warlocks also struggle with not having enough firepower, thinking their Eldritch Blasts to be weak. These poor souls are desperate enough to do dark deals and write up pacts with creatures so foul that they lurk beyond the folds of reality and in the Far Realm. They are the Lords of Eldritch War, and they shall be the ones to burn down infinity.

Becoming a Lord of Eldritch War
There are two paths to a Lordship of Eldritch War. Warmages and Warlocks desperate for more power all scribble up a pact with the madness beyond the Great Wheel, and almost always become like their masters. Sanity is optional.

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Alignment: Any Chaotic
Skills: Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 4 ranks
Eldritch Blast Damage: 2d6
Special: Must have the Warmage Edge class ability

Class Skills
The Lord of Eldritch War's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Disguise (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skills Points at Each Level: 4 + int

Hit Dice: d6

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|All is War, Eldritch War Training, Eldritch Warblade, Tainted Blood

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Bonus Invocation, Tainted Blast

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3|
---

4th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|Bonus Invocation, Tainted Flesh

5th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|Burn It All Down, Tainted Blood

6th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+5|
---

7th|
+5|
+2|
+2|
+5|Warp Blast, Tainted Blood

8th|
+6|
+2|
+2|
+6|Bonus Evocation, Blend of Essence

9th|
+6|
+3|
+3|
+6|
---

10th|
+7|
+3|
+3|
+7|Final Damnation, Reality Bender
[/table]

{table="head"]Level|Invoking|Spellcasting
1st|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
2nd|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
3rd|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
4th|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
5th|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
6th|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
7th|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
8th|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
9th|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
10th|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
[/table]

All is War: At each level, a Lord of Eldritch War gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) and new invocations known as if they had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class and an invoking class to which they belonged before adding the prestige class level. They do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If she had more than one arcane spellcasting/invoking class before becoming a Lord of Eldritch War, he must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day, spells known and invocations known.

Eldritch War Training: Levels in Lord of Eldrtich War stack with Warmage levels to determine the power of their Warmage Edge, and stack with Warlock levels to determine the power of their Eldritch Blast.

Eldritch Warblade(Su): A Lord of Eldritch War may apply it's Warmage Edge to it's Eldritch Blast at will, as if it were a spell.

Tainted Blood: At 1st, 5th and 7th level, the Lord of Eldritch War gains an [Aberrant] feat as a bonus feat.

Bonus Evocation: At 2nd, 4th and 8th, the Lord of Eldritch War gains a Bonus Evocation, but it must be a Blast Shape or Blast Essence Evocation.

Tainted Blast(Su): At 2nd level, a Lord of Eldritch War can fire off multiple spells at once, by breaking reality in slight ways. When a Lord of Eldritch War fires off an Eldritch Blast without applying a Blast Shape, they may also cast one spell that is a Ray. Both spells are treated as one spell, with one save and one spell level (Treat as the highest spell used).

Tainted Flesh(Ex): At 4th level, the Lord of Eldritch War buckles under the lawless powers, and so must adapt. The Lord of Eldritch loses 2 Cha permanently, but from now on the Lord's casting stat for all their Invocations and Warmage spells are based entirely on Int.

Burn It All Down(Su): At 5th level, the Lord of Eldritch War can conflagrate their opponents with a rain of eldritch energies. At an immediate action when using their Eldritch Blast, the Lord may turn it into an Endless Blast by expending one spell slot of any level. The Lord of Eldritch War may fire off extra Eldritch Blasts in the same action, up to the number of the spell slot's level that they expended.

Warp Blast(Su): At 7th level, the Lord of Eldritch War cannot bare to stay his wrath against his enemies, and learns to bend their flesh with a simple example of their power. When a Lord of Eldritch War successfully damages a target with their Eldritch Blast, they must make a Fort Save (Same as spells) or have malign tentacles sprout from their flesh. These tentacles decrease the victim's Cha and Dex by 2 while they're attached, and can only be removed by cutting them off, which removs the Cha/Dex Penalty, but deals 2 points of Con damage to the victim.

Blend of Essence(Su): At 9th level, the Lord of Eldritch War can infuse his powers with madness, and sear the flesh from their bones. Now, when a Lord of Eldritch War expends a spell slot to use their Burn It All Down class ability, they may choose a spell known of that level. Any target damaged by a Eldritch Blast during that round is also affected by the chosen spell, and must make a save as normal as if the Lord of Eldritch War has cast them on it.

Final Damnation(Ex): At 10th level, the Lord of Eldritch War becomes a master of madness, and throws off the chains of servitude that once binded them. The Lord of Eldritch War gains the Pseudonatural Template (Free of LA) (CpA p160), and any living creature the Lord of Eldritch War reduces to -10HP or less has their soul torn out of them and sealed in ther maddening flesh, as per Imprison the Soul. Only the Lord of Eldritch War's death can release the soul of the damned. Also, once per day the Lord of Eldritch War can tear down chunks of reality, make them alight, and hurl them at their enemies. They gain Meteor Swarm as an SLA once per day, plus bonus use(s) per day equal to their highest caster level divided by 8.

Alkapwn21
2011-02-18, 03:20 PM
As someone who is currently playing as a Dread Necro/Warlock gestalt, I think I just sported a nerd-partial hahaha

I love the flavor, well thought out, kudos =]

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-18, 03:44 PM
Glad to be of service.
Now, I'm struggling to think of class abilities for the Fey Warlock/Beguiler, and I want to remove the bonus feats on the Lord of Eldritch War for, you know, class abilities. Any suggestions?

Pyromancer999
2011-02-18, 05:40 PM
Glad to be of service.
Now, I'm struggling to think of class abilities for the Fey Warlock/Beguiler, and I want to remove the bonus feats on the Lord of Eldritch War for, you know, class abilities. Any suggestions?

Hmmm...well, Fey Pacts were provided for in Complete Mage, so I'd suggest focusing on a fey pact instead of a devil/demon pact, for one. It could gain some druid-like abilities, and have some strong enchantment and/or illusiory stuff as class features. You can still use a devil/demon pact, and have some kind of a devilish tempter. In this case, you could still use enchantment/illusiory effects, gain mastery over some stuff, and maybe even allow people to make pacts with the Beguiler/Warlock.

Milo v3
2011-02-18, 06:20 PM
If you do that, replace the Complete Arcane Warlock with theirs. It's over at their site.

Done that a while ago. Its the prestige classes that come from Warlock thats the problem. Have to swap invocations for spheres whiles trying to keep it balanced.

Dante & Vergil
2011-02-20, 12:24 AM
I like the new class! Very awesome! Was the Tainted Flesh ability ment to include affecting the casting stat of the Warmage? As it is now, it only affects the Warlock's Invocations.

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-20, 08:37 AM
You like? Cool, and that means my awesome meter is broke. Yes, it's supposed to base everything on INT, to stop the MADness. Will rectify, and then put up the 3rd prestige class.......the Forbidden Trickster :smallamused:

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-20, 02:05 PM
The Forbidden Trickster

http://www.deviantart.com/download/13063560/Suit_by_Joe_Kid.jpg
"I'm sure you're clever enough to know how this works. On the dotted line, if you'd please." - Faust, a Forbidden Trickster.

The life of Beguilers and Warlocks are not the most comfortable ones, and they tend to struggle to get by, drowning in their lies and their foul deviations of the truth. But a few lucky souls get good at it. Very, VERY good at it. In fact, they get so good beings from past the Material offer deals. Very good deals that are better than most - A simple price is required for training. A soul, a life, an object. And often, they take these deals, and they become more than just simple tricksters. They become part of the Forbidden Tricksters.

Becoming a Forbidden Trickster
Normally one becomes a Forbidden Trickster when a Fae Monarch, or a high ranking Archduke/Archdevil of the Nine offers to teach the trickster for a price. Most offered the deal are "too clever to be tricked", but the clever few who think they can exploit the deal take it, and become so much more.

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Alignment: Any non-Good
Skills: Knowledge (Nature OR The Planes) 4 ranks
Eldritch Blast Damage: 2d6
Special: Must have the Cloaked Casting class ability.

Class Skills
The Forbidden Trickster's skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Disguise (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha) Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skills Points at Each Level: 4 + int

Hit Dice: d6

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Eldritch Trickery, Cloaked Blasts

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Pupillus Pactum

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3|
---

4th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|Medius Pactum

5th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|Air of Trickery, Cloaked Invocations, Forced Pact

6th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+5|
---

7th|
+5|
+2|
+2|
+5|Trickery Blast

8th|
+6|
+2|
+2|
+6|Maioribus Pactum

9th|
+6|
+3|
+3|
+6|
---

10th|
+7|
+3|
+3|
+7|One of the Tricksters, Extremus Pactum
[/table]

{table="head"]Level|Invoking|Spellcasting
1st|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
2nd|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
3rd|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
4th|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
5th|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
6th|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
7th|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
8th|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
9th|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
10th|+1 of existing invoking class|+1 of existing arcane spellcasting class
[/table]

Eldritch Trickery: At each level, a Forbidden Trickster gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) and new invocations known as if she had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class and an invoking class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If she had more than one arcane spellcasting/invoking class before becoming a Forbidden Trickster, he must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day, spells known and invocations known.

Cloaked Blasts(Su): Forbidden Trickster levels stack with Warlock levels to determine how powerful their Eldritch Blast is, and stack with Beguiler levels to determine how powerful their Cloaked Casting ability is. Also, a Forbidden Trickster may apply their Cloaked Casting ability to their Eldritch Blasts. Also, the blending of magics means the Forbidden Trickster can base all their magic on one facet of their mind. Choose either Cha or Int. This becomes the casting stat for both the Forbidden Trickster's Warlock casting and Beguiler casting.

Pupillus Pactum(Ex): At 2nd level, the Forbidden Trickster learns how to bind people into reality-bending pacts that refuse to be broken.
As a full round action oncer per day for every level in the Forbidden Trickster class, the Forbidden Trickster and a willing person (Magical effects that would make the person make the pact null the pact, and this class ability fails) may make an agreement, known as a pact. The maker of the pact must specifically know they are making the pact, and it can range from writing up a contract, to just a handshake, to just a verbal agreement. The person making the pact must agree to one task within their ability, and in return the person making the pact benefits from any one spell with a spell level no higher than the highest level spell the Forbidden Trickster can cast.
The only other prerequisite is that the spell have a range of Creature Touched, Willing Target, or something similar. The person making the pact has one week in which to do the task willingly.
If they fail to complete the tack in one week, the pact is broken and the pact maker suffers the penalty. They are instantly stricken with a Bestow Curse (Caster Level equal to the Forbidden Trickster's class level). The only way this can end is if the Forbidden Trickster willing dispels the effect as a free action, or if it forcefully dispelled as a normal curse.

Lastly, a Forbidden Trickster may only have a number of pacts active at one time equal to their Cha Modifier.

Medius Pactum(Ex): At 4th level, the person making the pact as per the Pupillus Pactum class ability has as long to complete the task, with a minimum of 24 hours and a maximum of 7 days. Also, they may benefit from up to two spells, with the same parameters.

Air of Trickery(Su): At 5th level, the Forbidden Trickster can subconsciously convince reality that, "No, that nasty fighter didn't hit me."
All damage made against the Forbidden Trickster has a [Forbidden Trickster levels*5)% chance of being negated after being rolled.

Cloaked Invocations(Su): At 5th level, the Forbidden Trickster can blend their magics together with greater ease. Any spell, or spell-like ability the Forbidden Trickster uses (Like their invocations) automatically benefit from their Cloaked Casting ability.

Forced Pact: At 5th level, the Forbidden Trickster can use a legal loophole in reality to force pacts upon the poor fools that sign them, at a rapid pace. The people that make pacts with the Forbidden Trickster do not need to be willing, but must know that they are making a pact. Also, at 5th level, to make a pact only takes the Forbidden Trickster a swift action.

Trickery Blast(Su): At 7th level, the Forbidden Trickster can wrap it's victims of it's Eldritch Blast with legal laws and loopholes and other foul agreements. Anyone damaged by the Forbidden Trickster's Eldritch Blast must make a Will Save (Same as invocations) or be Confused for 2 rounds, as per the spell. At 10th level, this becomes as per the Insanity spell.

Maiorbus Pactum: At 8th level, the Forbidden Trickster can offer greater treasures to anyone that makes a pact with it. When a person makes a pact with the Forbidden Trickster, as well as gaining the effects of spells, they also gain one class ability from any base class, but only a class ability that someone of the Forbidden Trickster's level could have. Spellcasting cannot come under this sadly, as the process of granting spellcasting to a creature is simply too complicated to be granted by a Forbidden Trickster.
If (and more likely, when) the pact is broken, instead of suffering the effects of a Bestow Curse, the Pact Maker suffers the effect of a Bestow Greater Curse.

One of the Tricksters(Ex): At 10th level, the magics that the Forbidden Trickster uses to write up their pacts change them forever, and make them like the ones that offered them their first pact, all that time ago. They gain the Outsider (Native) type, and DR 10/Cold Iron.

Extremus Pactum: At 10th level, the Forbidden Trickster does not need to follow the rules - they make up the rules. When making a pact, the task requires does not need to be possible, they may set any time limit they wish (Minimum one round), and the pact maker does not need to know they are making a pact (But the Forbidden Trickster must consider it a Pact, in the sense that it must be at least a vague agreement of sorts).

Pyromancer999
2011-02-21, 03:37 PM
.......Words can't describe how happy this PrC makes me.

TheGeckoKing
2011-02-21, 03:42 PM
Glad to be of service. :smallbiggrin:
Now, if I could get someone to look at my Monarch of Spite Prc :smalltongue:

industrious
2011-03-02, 06:28 PM
Compared to the Damned Mortician's capstone(a +4 LA for free), both of the other two PrC's seems rather lacking, I'm afraid.

Forbidden Trickster: Extremis Pactem is useful, but it's still a full-round action for a bestow curse effect. I'd recommend making it a Greater Bestow Curse effect at tenth level. And DR 10/cold iron isn't all that impressive(though being an Outsider can be useful). Additionally, some way for Beguiler's to be either fully INT based or CHA based would be nice(Warlock is CHA based; Beguiler, INT based).

Lord of Eldritch War: Where's the Reality Bender ability? Additionally, preventing resurrection is all well and good, but it doesn't really do all that much. Neither, unfortunately, does the pseudonatural template.

They're still awesome, just...not as good as the Mortician.

TheGeckoKing
2011-03-02, 06:32 PM
You have requested, and so you shall recieve. I shall edit right away.

EDIT: The Forbidden Trickster can make meaner pacts, and faster.
The Lord of Eldritch War can now blow stuff up with a Meteor Swarm, which IS known as one of the weakest 9th's, so I'm pretty sure it's not too bad.

industrious
2011-03-02, 08:00 PM
Awesome. The thought just occured, though, that the Trickster has a bit of an alignment issue I mean, this seems like something a devil(LE) is perfect for(making rigged pacts that give benefits); any chaotic or any evil would fit better.

Sorry if I'm being nitpicky, by the way.

TheGeckoKing
2011-03-03, 10:44 AM
Naw, your right. I'll change the alignment.

EdroGrimshell
2011-03-03, 11:45 AM
Do you take requests? If so i want to see a Warlock/Binder class and a VoP warlock class, possibly both mixed together for kicks.

TheGeckoKing
2011-03-03, 11:49 AM
A Warlock/Binder Prc already exists, actually. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158120)

VoP Warlock? That......seems hard. I shall see.

EdroGrimshell
2011-03-03, 12:00 PM
A Warlock/Binder Prc already exists, actually. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158120)

VoP Warlock? That......seems hard. I shall see.

I really don't care for that class, it really doesn't meld together all that well. How about an incarnum warlock?

Benly
2011-03-03, 12:10 PM
I really don't care for that class, it really doesn't meld together all that well. How about an incarnum warlock?

I thought the warlock/binder PrC was "hellfire warlock with Naberius" and the warlock/incarnum PrC was "hellfire warlock with Strongheart Vest". :smallbiggrin:

TheGeckoKing
2011-03-03, 12:21 PM
Incarnum Warlock, I can do. Will do so as soon as possible.

SynissterSyster
2011-03-03, 02:00 PM
I like these classes a lot. Nice to see the more specialized casting classes get love as well as warlock. I do have one small nitpick though. As Dante&Virgil pointed out that the DN version needs a way to gain undead mastery else, by way of how it is normally viewed to get levels, this PrC would stop at 9 when a player reached level 20. The nominal eight levels of DN and three levels of WL would mean that this class is at best picked up at ChL eleven which means that the player misses out on the capstone ability.

If I may also reccomend something else, on some of levels on all these PrC that don't give anything other then advanacing the casting/invocation on giving some flexability in what can be cast. Beguilers and Dread Necros are considered tier 3 and WarMages tier four, not that this is bad but adding in some flexability in what they can cast would help make them more loved in my opinion.

EdroGrimshell
2011-03-03, 02:07 PM
I like these classes a lot. Nice to see the more specialized casting classes get love as well as warlock. I do have one small nitpick though. As Dante&Virgil pointed out that the DN version needs a way to gain undead mastery else, by way of how it is normally viewed to get levels, this PrC would stop at 9 when a player reached level 20. The nominal eight levels of DN and three levels of WL would mean that this class is at best picked up at ChL eleven which means that the player misses out on the capstone ability.

If I may also reccomend something else, on some of levels on all these PrC that don't give anything other then advanacing the casting/invocation on giving some flexability in what can be cast. Beguilers and Dread Necros are considered tier 3 and WarMages tier four, not that this is bad but adding in some flexability in what they can cast would help make them more loved in my opinion.

Look at the 10th level ability

SynissterSyster
2011-03-03, 03:11 PM
No offense Edro but why would I have to wait thirteen levels (Lock plus the PrC) to get undead mastery when going eight levels in DN and get it? I mean if the undead mastery ability can be dropped to like fifth level of the PrC it would be more useful. My opinion of course.

TheGeckoKing
2011-03-03, 03:19 PM
If Clerics can get by without Undead Mastery and be good necromancers, so can this class. Deathbound Domain? Take it via a feat if your that desperate.

Benly
2011-03-03, 03:41 PM
If Clerics can get by without Undead Mastery and be good necromancers, so can this class. Deathbound Domain? Take it via a feat if your that desperate.

There isn't a feat that I know of that will actually give a DN/Warlock/Damned Mortician access to the Deathbound domain ability. You'll still probably want to Arcane Disciple for it, because Deathbound has some very useful spells, but you won't get the domain benefit. Clerics also don't have Undead Mastery dangling in front of them on their normal progression.

That said, this class is mostly worthwhile. I would consider this for a minion-focused DN, not least because it lets you start animating minions three levels earlier than a DN normally gets to. Enter the class as DN 1/Wrl 3/DM 1 and you get The Dead Walk at level 5; normally you don't get Animate Dead until level 8 as a DN. The Dead Shall Stay is a nice benefit and while The Dead Never End isn't as good as Undead Mastery, free no-LA lich at a level where you might actually have time to enjoy it is a good deal.

I do have two complaints. I would recommend moving The Dead Shall Stay earlier in the class. Gold for undead creation is more of a choke point at the mid levels, when skeletons and zombies are getting less effective but your income hasn't kicked into ludicrous overdrive yet, so it'll do more good if you get it earlier.

More importantly, Eldritch Dread needs to make all your caster/invocation class levels stack for purposes of animating and controlling undead. As it stands, a Damned Mortician actually makes worse undead than other necromancers of his level because his caster level is damaged by multiclassing. This is the main problem that would keep me from taking this class.

TheGeckoKing
2011-03-03, 03:50 PM
The feat I was talking about was Planar Touchstone (Manual of the Planes).
Has the option (out of many) to give you a Domain Ability.

Other than that, I shall swap some abilities round. Watch this space.
EDIT: Moved to 7th, because I realize they probably lose 9th's without cheese and people normally scream when that happens, so they deserve a bit of goodness.

SynissterSyster
2011-03-03, 04:13 PM
I still love this class but if I may make some suggestions. Move the Corpsecrafter feats to 3, 6, and 9. Why? Well it gives a player one more extra feat for making cool undead (A good thing) as well as filling up the special slots, minor thing but that is my OCD. Again I think that dropping the Dead Never End to 9th or even lower would be awesome. Heck even just give the class Undead Mastery at like 5th and keep The Dead Never End at 10 as the bouns is nice (though, in my opinion not a capstone ability, Lich is but not a +cha bonus to controling undead.).

Benly
2011-03-03, 04:25 PM
I still love this class but if I may make some suggestions. Move the Corpsecrafter feats to 3, 6, and 9. Why? Well it gives a player one more extra feat for making cool undead (A good thing) as well as filling up the special slots, minor thing but that is my OCD. Again I think that dropping the Dead Never End to 9th or even lower would be awesome. Heck even just give the class Undead Mastery at like 5th and keep The Dead Never End at 10 as the bouns is nice (though, in my opinion not a capstone ability, Lich is but not a +cha bonus to controling undead.).

Something to bear in mind about Undead Mastery is that this class has two simultaneous control pools, one based on warlock caster level and one based on dread necromancer caster level. That alone makes your number of undead controlled pretty significant, and quantity isn't so much a problem as a result. The big issue that this class has is that the mandatory multiclassing reduces the quality of undead it can create.

SynissterSyster
2011-03-03, 04:33 PM
Something to bear in mind about Undead Mastery is that this class has two simultaneous control pools, one based on warlock caster level and one based on dread necromancer caster level. That alone makes your number of undead controlled pretty significant, and quantity isn't so much a problem as a result. The big issue that this class has is that the mandatory multiclassing reduces the quality of undead it can create.

Hmmm well the walking Desicrate is nice as it helps with undead building. The corpsecrafter feats also aid in quality. Maybe a homebrew invocation to aid in their strength or a way to scale Undead Mastery with levels in this prc??

Benly
2011-03-03, 04:37 PM
Hmmm well the walking Desicrate is nice as it helps with undead building. The corpsecrafter feats also aid in quality. Maybe a homebrew invocation to aid in their strength or a way to scale Undead Mastery with levels in this prc??

Desecrate and Corpsecrafter are both nice but they're also things any necro worth their salt will have.

My suggestion is to have Eldritch Dread stack all spellcasting and invocation class levels to determine your caster level for purposes of animating and controlling undead via Animate Dead or The Dead Walk.

SynissterSyster
2011-03-03, 04:45 PM
The stacking would indeed help. From what I know about dread necro is they are really great to be fear casters. With the never outnumbers skill trick as well as their fear aura and intimidate class skill they can make baddies quiver pretty fast. Now, from what I can see, this is mainly an undead minion type class so for some utility having that area boost the DC for the fear aura or make it where they are one step higher on the fear chart and if they save they are still the normal effect?

P.S What about the familiar? Sorry if I am bringing up nit picks but one has to admit that the familiars one can gain from DN are helpful. Maybe a different selection if a player goes into this PrC eariler or gaining the benefit around like level 4-7?

Benly
2011-03-03, 04:51 PM
The stacking would indeed help. From what I know about dread necro is they are really great to be fear casters. With the never outnumbers skill trick as well as their fear aura and intimidate class skill they can make baddies quiver pretty fast. Now, from what I can see, this is mainly an undead minion type class so for some utility having that area boost the DC for the fear aura or make it where they are one step higher on the fear chart and if they save they are still the normal effect?

P.S What about the familiar? Sorry if I am bringing up nit picks but one has to admit that the familiars one can gain from DN are helpful. Maybe a different selection if a player goes into this PrC eariler or gaining the benefit around like level 4-7?

I think it's reasonable for this class to not advance every single class feature you get as a DN. A feat to let the non-DN class levels advance the familiar makes sense, but fear aura, damage reduction, and so on are the kind of class abilities that you end up sacrificing for the specialized power of PrCs.

TheGeckoKing
2011-03-03, 05:25 PM
Familiars ARE useful, so I don't mind it stacking with that, buuuuut......how about a few feats to make it stack with other smaller stuff (Fear Aura, Negative Energy Burst, Fiendish Resiliance ect.)?

SynissterSyster
2011-03-03, 05:35 PM
I can give it the good old try on making balance feats. The fear aura is not a huge thing and more personal prefrence. Still it would be rather neat. I can't make any promises but will try. Arigato Gecko for being open minded.

Fable Wright
2011-03-03, 05:39 PM
Necrotic Hellborn: At 10th level, the Damned Mortician combines his fiendish taint and lordship over the powers of undeath to create a new form for himself. The Damned Mortician gains the Lich template (Free of LA), and the Extraplanar subtype, native to a layer of Hell or the Abyss, chosen by the Damned Mortician. The Damned Mortician must have a suitable object for his Phylactery but does not have to pay Gold/XP to turn it into a phylactery, like normal liches. He also gains wings granting him a flight speed 60ft (Good), and may channel his Paralyzing Touch through his Eldritch Blast.

No. Just... no. This is the capstone for the Dread Necromancer, class, except better, and they had to take about 8~10 dead levels to get it, and it's the most desired feature of the class itself. The rest of the class is pretty powerful; you're basically giving a level 14 character the lich template for no LA, making them as a monster more powerful than their levels would indicate, and as players they are devastating. This class now has the ability to fire an eldritch blast that also forces a fortitude save vs paralysis on every hit, completely negating sorcerers/wizards, all the things you want from the warlock with none of the useless class features, as well as basically a free 10 levels of spellcasting. With, of course, benefits, such as Desecrate, which is a much-sought after boon for Dread Necromancers, the ability to use a Mortician's Blast Utterdark Cone to heal all of his minions while blasting his enemies regardless of their spell resistance, Animate Dead at will as a spell-like ability with no material component, completely breaking WBL and causing endless frustration for the DM (especially with Control Undead for the stronger, mindless undead you animate; it is basically making all monsters you ever kill to come back under your control), and it makes anyone trying melee useless, as you can heal your minions and kill everyone else at the same time (from inside the cover of your undead meatshield's husk), and the undead combined can do more damage than the melee character. The rest of the abilities are relatively fine, though I would ask you to reconsider using con damage as an eldritch essence invocation. [/3cents]

In the end, a picture of the class as written: A level 14 lich running around firing eldritch cones that both heal the undead they control and kill their enemies, with the corpses of every creature they killed from level 11 onwards, causing each creature in the blast zone to make a Save-or-die saving throw whenever they are hit, and taking con damage whenever they are hit. Please tone it down a bit...

Lord of Eldritch War seems okay-ish, but using Burn It All Down gives them the power to deal about 35d6 points of damage as a standard action is kinda crazy. I would consider moving Tainted Blast to a higher level, as well, and having it take a full-round action to use both.

Also, with the Fey Pact ability, you're essentially giving all the beguiler buffs a week-long duration on the entire party, with no downside... I would consider a clause about making a pact with a particular creature only once, or some other restriction for this. Read the line about the restriction... consider making it a pact 1/3 class levels, because a haste effect that lasts a week, or permanently with the last ability, becomes ridiculously powerful. Plus, y'know, any other benefits that levels would give... and, frankly, a confusion effect on anyone hit completely neutralizes fighter-type opponents, given their will saves. This is a dangerously potent class, especially as it can be used in conjunction with essences...

TheGeckoKing
2011-03-03, 05:57 PM
Toned down The Damned Mortician, and limited how many pacts the Forbidden Trickster can make. Done.

Benly
2011-03-03, 06:19 PM
No. Just... no. This is the capstone for the Dread Necromancer, class, except better, and they had to take about 8~10 dead levels to get it, and it's the most desired feature of the class itself.

Actually, the most desired feature of the class itself is Undead Mastery. A lot of players prestige out after that because it's not worth sitting through those dead levels to get to lich.

A better comparison would be Walker In The Waste, which can be entered earlier than Damned Mortician, gives up fewer caster levels, and grants a better template than the basic lich. And even then it's only considered a good class rather than a great one, because it still gives up two caster levels.

The important thing about Damned Mortician that you have to keep in mind is that in order to qualify you're giving up three levels of spellcasting advancement on a class that's already a level behind wizards. At character level eight, you'll still be casting second-level spells. It will be impossible to get ninth-level spells at all pre-epic. This is on a caster-archetype character, mind.

What you get in exchange for that needs to be really good. This is one of many reasons I believe that the componentless permanent animation needs to come considerably earlier in the class - you need those shambling hordes to keep up at your level, because Ghoul Touch and Summon Swarm ain't going to cut it at level 8.

Note that this is looking at it from the perspective of a dread necromancer. Compared to a straight warlock, Damned Mortician is a significant upgrade. This is because a straight warlock is tragically a terrible class.

TheGeckoKing
2011-03-03, 06:26 PM
Well, I think i've found a good medium.

Permanent undead don't come online until 9th level (13th character level wise, if this is War3/DN1/DM 9), and you don't channel your paralyzing touch via ED (That was a bit nasty of me to add). And I swapped some things about, but it's not too much of a change.

Benly
2011-03-03, 06:37 PM
Well, I think i've found a good medium.

Permanent undead don't come online until 9th level (13th character level wise, if this is War3/DN1/DM 9), and you don't channel your paralyzing touch via ED (That was a bit nasty of me to add). And I swapped some things about, but it's not too much of a change.

I guess the question is, what are you doing in the levels before 13th? You can plink for terrible damage (about the same as a warlock's - you're a level behind on damage, but Charnel Touch catches you up, so you'll be a few points ahead some levels and about the same at others), you have spells designed to be useful four levels ago, and you have invocations a level behind - not bad, but let's face it, invocations weren't exactly winning the game even before you lost a level on them. What you have to theoretically make up for this is your undead, and... your undead.

So you basically have two options: you can churn your money into undead that are increasingly dying in one or two hits as enemies get stronger faster than your zombies do, or you can carry around a Bag of Holding full of corpses, stuff everything you kill into it, and dump them out for on-the-spot animation as needed. The latter is functionally identical to getting your free animation, but it looks a lot dumber - so why not cut out the dumb-lookingness and just give the free animation?

There's another problem here, too, which is called Level 15. At that point, you're four spell levels behind and you get to choose between spending the rest of your career as a warlock with some level 3 spells or trying to make it as a caster with spells four levels out of date. You're a lich, which is nice, but lichdom only goes so far. There's not honestly a whole lot you can do about this except maybe let the class continue beyond ten levels or modify the entry requirements, but as it stands you're getting your Big Payoff at level 13 and then facing imminent redundancy at level 15. That's a pretty narrow band of play, right there.

Edit: Although there is Eldritch Theurge. It's not a great class, but hey, at least it keeps you advancing.

TheGeckoKing
2011-03-03, 06:50 PM
Well, it's only a niche prestige class, and anyway, you've got pretty much your Character Level as your Caster Level (unless you do something stupid like dip Rogue), so your undead are as strong as is possible for your level.

It's not the greatest, but I'm happy with it.

Fable Wright
2011-03-03, 07:22 PM
So you basically have two options: you can churn your money into undead that are increasingly dying in one or two hits as enemies get stronger faster than your zombies do, or you can carry around a Bag of Holding full of corpses, stuff everything you kill into it, and dump them out for on-the-spot animation as needed. The latter is functionally identical to getting your free animation, but it looks a lot dumber - so why not cut out the dumb-lookingness and just give the free animation?

...:smallconfused:? I don't see your point... there's still the action tax in each casting. But honestly, look at it this way: Permanent animation, on the other hand, is hell. While it may look good on paper, in actual practice, it's a nightmare for the DM. In one game I played with unlimited reanimation, the DM arranged two deus ex machinas to kill every undead I had to keep me in line with the rest of the party. An army of minions is stronger than you may think, and a nightmare in combat. A better compromise would be to make the animation last 1 hour/level before being destroyed, to keep down the bookkeeping.

Also, with the walker in the waste: Keep in mind that it was designed for a tier 1 class, has a low hit die, and focuses on touch attacks. The actual abilities granted aren't that good; it's only considered a good class because of the template at the end. Plus some vague undead creation rules and the ability to create a type of golem. And compared to a straight warlock or dread necromancer, this significantly improves the power level of the character.

Benly
2011-03-03, 08:28 PM
...:smallconfused:? I don't see your point... there's still the action tax in each casting.

Not once you have the hours-long version. The undead will last long enough that you don't need to animate each fight, but you still need to animate on-site. Once you have the hours-long version, you effectively have permanent animation but you have to lug around a sack full of corpses and look kind of dumb to do it.


And compared to a straight warlock or dread necromancer, this significantly improves the power level of the character.

Compared to a straight warlock? Yes, for the most part - although if you're treating this as compared to a warlock, it's worth mentioning that it disqualifies you from using Hellfire Warlock because liches are immune to Con damage. Compared to a straight dread necro? No. A straight dread necro will have spells more or less appropriate to his level. The Damned Mortician will not - he never will, because entering the class at all means he won't be getting third-level spells until level 10 no matter what classes he enters. In return for this, he gets a warlock's Eldritch Blasting, some invocations, and free undead.

(I will continue to rant about level 10 for the duration of this rant, because it's about as good an example as any.)

Let's get this out of the way: Eldritch Blast isn't much good. A tenth-level Eldritch Blast does the damage of a fourth-level warrior with Power Attack, or a warhorse full attacking. Since Dread Necros get free Martial Weapon Proficiency, you could have picked up a greataxe, taken Power Attack, gotten your strength buffed and done that much damage every round without multiclassing nonsense, but straight DNs don't do that anyway because it's a terrible idea and doesn't do much damage. Invocations are nice utility, some of them are nice control, but again, your lesser invocations at tenth level are not going to stand in for the Cloudkill, Magic Jar and Lesser Planar Binding you would've had as a straight, unmodified Dread Necro without any special build tricks or feats.

This leaves free undead. It may be the case that playing with an undead army is something your DM isn't up to dealing with. If that's the case, don't play this class because undead are the only thing you have that's punching in nearly the right weight class. Your undead are as strong as (not stronger than) a normal dread necromancer's of your level, you don't have as many of them even with the two control pools because Undead Mastery really is that amazing, and your only advantage in this regard is that they're free. Except they're not, because you won't get The Dead Persist until next level, at which point you get them free if you carry around a sack full of corpses.

In what possible way does this constitute an improvement over the dread necromancer?

Fable Wright
2011-03-03, 08:42 PM
In what possible way does this constitute an improvement over the dread necromancer?

Mortician Eldritch Cone from inside a hydra? Damaging enemies while also healing allies? Granted, it's not optimal damage, but healing all your undead for 21 damage each round, more with metamagic, and damaging the enemy for the same amount, while con-damaging them and having free undead that they can use in combat seems pretty good to me. Pretty much as than casting two fifth level spells as a standard action at-will, but with more damage than normal (mass inflict light wounds and mass heal light wounds, in a way). The one/hour limitation is to prevent the necromancer from having an undead army following him everywhere, and just flooding combat with flanking bonuses and heavy damage dealers at every fight for no cost.

Regardless, let's just agree to disagree and move on.

Benly
2011-03-03, 08:52 PM
Mortician Eldritch Cone from inside a hydra? Damaging enemies while also healing allies? Granted, it's not optimal damage, but healing all your undead for 21 damage each round, more with metamagic, and damaging the enemy for the same amount, while con-damaging them and having free undead that they can use in combat seems pretty good to me. Pretty much as than casting two fifth level spells as a standard action at-will, but with more damage than normal (mass inflict light wounds and mass heal light wounds, in a way). The one/hour limitation is to prevent the necromancer from having an undead army following him everywhere, and just flooding combat with flanking bonuses and heavy damage dealers at every fight for no cost.

Regardless, let's just agree to disagree and move on.

No, let's not. I love the flavor of this PrC and I hate to see it being effectively useless because people are terrified of d6es.

It's not like casting two fifth-level spells at once. It is in fact very much like casting one fifth-level spell at once, except the only spell you get is Mass Inflict Light Wounds, which is not a good spell. This is why I mentioned the good fifth-level spells that a dread necro gets and not the bad ones. And this isn't an upgrade, because the Dread Necro could also be casting Mass Inflict Light Wounds, except he could also choose to cast Cloudkill or Magic Jar instead. (Or Evard's Black Tentacles, which is a lower level spell but still one the Mortician won't be getting from either class for two more levels.)

All this said, a friend pointed something out to me: all existing officially-published warlock hybrid classes are entered with a single level of warlock and three or more of the other class in the hybrid. If the Mortician had requirements that lent themselves to DN 3/Wlck 1 this would be somewhat mitigated - although I would still recommend putting the free undead much earlier in the class.

Edit: I realize that I said this class looked pretty good earlier, but then i did the math. Here's basically how it breaks down.

Level 1-3: You're a warlock. Being a warlock doesn't suck too badly yet compared to everyone else, so life is okay.
Level 4: You add Dread Necromancer. Now you're a warlock who can cast Ray of Enfeeblement and heal himself (if you took Tomb-Tainted Soul).
Level 5: Paydirt, sort of! This is why you took the class. You're a warlock who got The Dead Walk much earlier than you're supposed to. By which I mean you got it a level earlier. Right now, every other warlock wishes he was you, because you're a warlock with a zombie. Ignore that clerics also learned Animate Dead about now.
Level 6: The other warlocks get zombies if they wanted them.
Level 7: You get a second-level spell! The wizard has fourth-level spells, including Animate Dead. You have slightly more zombies than he does. He has a lot more Black Tentacles than you do. On the plus side, your Eldritch Blast does almost as much damage as the longbow the fighter carries around for when he doesn't feel like using a sword.
Level 8-12: If you had gone straight Dread Necromancer, you'd have a million zombies right now. If you had gone straight Warlock, you'd be a hellfire glaivelock right now. For you, it's downhill until the free undead start.
Level 13: The free undead start. Now your undead hordes can make kamikaze blitzes every fight if you feel like it, right about the time wealth levels start getting sufficiently ridiculous that they're disposably cheap anyway. Wizard learns Limited Wish.
Level 14: You're a lich!
Level 15+: :smallfrown:

Fable Wright
2011-03-03, 09:21 PM
1. You also deal more damage with it, deal con damage, ignore spell resistance, and whatever else you add on.
2. Have fun blatantly ignoring class features.
3. Have you ever actually played a game where you get animate dead, at will, for no cost? It looks good on paper, but in gameplay, it slows everything down, the DM gets annoyed at you as everything he threw at you is now on your side, and not dying between the encounters, and getting your Corpsecrafter buffs.

Benly
2011-03-03, 09:30 PM
1. You also deal more damage with it, deal con damage, ignore spell resistance, and whatever else you add on.
2. Have fun blatantly ignoring class features.
3. Have you ever actually played a game where you get animate dead, at will, for no cost? It looks good on paper, but in gameplay, it slows everything down, the DM gets annoyed at you as everything he threw at you is now on your side, and not dying between the encounters, and getting your Corpsecrafter buffs.

1: You deal slightly more damage than a warlock's Eldritch Blast. So does a Power Attacking warrior half your level. He also ignores spell resistance. The Con damage is nice, but one point at a time isn't going to make a huge difference.
2: Class features like.. dealing slightly more damage with Eldritch Blast and one point of Constitution damage each time. See 1 above.
3: I acknowledge such games exist. In such games, you should not play this class because its only advantage over a straight DN or warlock is that you get Animate Dead slightly earlier and, eventually, you don't have to pay for it. Saying "Animate Dead is a terrible class feature and no DM will let you use it" is not exactly convincing me that a class built around Animate Dead is every bit as powerful as classes that can actually do other things well.

SynissterSyster
2011-03-03, 09:34 PM
Or just play a real class like a cleric. Then you just own everything with your druid and wizards buddy. The three of you destory everything because, well, you are Tier 1 so why play less then the best?

Benly
2011-03-03, 09:40 PM
Or just play a real class like a cleric. Then you just own everything with your druid and wizards buddy. The three of you destory everything because, well, you are Tier 1 so why play less then the best?

This is a straw man argument. I'm not saying "you shouldn't play less than Tier 1", I'm saying "if you prestige class into this, you are becoming slightly worse at the specialty of one of the only classes that can qualify, significantly worse at everything else that class does, and only somewhat better at what the other class involved does."

I love dread necromancers. I love warlocks. That's why I'm arguing this particular class so fiercely. I would love to see a dread necromancer/warlock hybrid class that is on par with playing a straight dread necromancer. This is not presently that class. If the entry requirements are adjusted and the free undead kick in earlier, it could be that class.

Fable Wright
2011-03-03, 09:48 PM
2: Class features like.. dealing slightly more damage with Eldritch Blast and one point of Constitution damage each time. See 1 above.
Class features like healing your undead each time you blast, a desecrate effect, granting your undead the benefits of a 6th or 7th level spell automatically (Getting the fiendish template; gives your undead feats (especially zombies), spell resistance, smite good, and other goodies), without the normal experience cost, and bonus feats that boost your undead. I believe they are not to be neglected.

3: I acknowledge such games exist. In such games, you should not play this class because its only advantage over a straight DN or warlock is that you get Animate Dead slightly earlier and, eventually, you don't have to pay for it. Saying "Animate Dead is a terrible class feature and no DM will let you use it" is not exactly convincing me that a class built around Animate Dead is every bit as powerful as classes that can actually do other things well.
This will inevitably happen whenever you have Animate Dead, free, and at-will, unless you on't take the full benefit of the feature. I'm not saying that it's a bad class feature. I'm saying that at-will, with No costs whatsoever is. Perhaps 1/day or so is free, and the normal duration of the effect without the component has an hour/level duration. That way, you will get the undead you need, at a relatively reasonable rate, cheap, expendable minions, as well as a few permanent heavy-hitters that you need. Or possibly also cause creatures killed by your EB to be animated for that duration, or more if you later spend the material component on the body.

SynissterSyster
2011-03-03, 09:58 PM
I see where both of you are going. A bunch of free, permanent undead is a huge hassel for a DM with out just having them smited instantly. And while you are limited to HD that means you can have a bunch of fiendish awakened pyro/cryo hydra zombies that wll ruin any day.

I said play a real class like a cleric because of having the goodies like desacrate, animate/control(greater) dead/undead, as well as domains is far superior to any class below it. Plus you have goodies to make sure you are not IP proofed when fighting baddies.

I too love the Dread Necro class. Heck, for me, playing one is a step above being a straight wizard but I acknowledge that in terms of power and flexability it sucks. 'Locks are worse. So a PrC that helps both is a boon but no way invalidates going straight cleric with things like Bone Knight and Ordained Champion keeping your turning/rebuking high all the while having 9th level spells.

Edit: With above said one can go into the Bone Knight class after eight levels of Dread Necro, lose one caster level and get a nice load of immunities (Without being undead!!). Then one can go into say..Shadow Adapt to get some flexability to spells.

Benly
2011-03-03, 10:11 PM
Class features like healing your undead each time you blast, a desecrate effect, granting your undead the benefits of a 6th or 7th level spell automatically (Getting the fiendish template; gives your undead feats (especially zombies), spell resistance, smite good, and other goodies), without the normal experience cost, and bonus feats that boost your undead. I believe they are not to be neglected.

The bonus feats are reasonable to discount because anyone who wants them can get them and dedicated necromancers will have them (and anybody else won't care). Desecrate is similarly very easy to get your hands on, either through a deadwalker's ring or similar item, Arcane Disciple, or just knowing someone who can cast it. The negative energy blast for combat healing is nice, and I admit I overlooked it, but the thing is that the damage that's terrible on the attack isn't that hot on the healing either.

Now, if you interpret fiendish template as giving your undead intelligence and feats, that's indeed very nice - but not everyone interprets it that way, and I seem to recall published fiendish vermin still being mindless and featless. It's unclear whether increasing Int to 3 actually works on creatures that have Int - instead of low Int.


This will inevitably happen whenever you have Animate Dead, free, and at-will, unless you on't take the full benefit of the feature. I'm not saying that it's a bad class feature. I'm saying that at-will, with No costs whatsoever is. Perhaps 1/day or so is free, and the normal duration of the effect without the component has an hour/level duration. That way, you will get the undead you need, at a relatively reasonable rate, cheap, expendable minions, as well as a few permanent heavy-hitters that you need. Or possibly also cause creatures killed by your EB to be animated for that duration, or more if you later spend the material component on the body.

If you have Animate Dead 1/day, you're still going to have your control limit of undead most of the time, and that's going to be the chokepoint for your amount of undead. If it's hours/level, you'll just pad out your losses between fights from your bag of corpses. It's not actually a significant difference except for the part where you have to drag around a sack of corpses like an idiot.

Edit:

I said play a real class like a cleric because of having the goodies like desacrate, animate/control(greater) dead/undead, as well as domains is far superior to any class below it. Plus you have goodies to make sure you are not IP proofed when fighting baddies.

Sorry, I thought you were trying to extrapolate a straw man from my arguing about how bad the PrC is.

..er, do you know what "IP proofed" means? I don't think it means what you think it means.

SynissterSyster
2011-03-03, 10:18 PM
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10935.0

IP Proofed

Benly
2011-03-03, 10:23 PM
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10935.0

IP Proofed

Yeah, so the thing is I know what it means.

You said you wanted to make sure you weren't IP proofed. That's.. not how it works.

IP proofing is proofing against iterative probability. Or, as the rest of us know it, "bein' hard to kill".

(like say by being a lich)

Fable Wright
2011-03-03, 10:27 PM
The bonus feats are reasonable to discount because anyone who wants them can get them and dedicated necromancers will have them (and anybody else won't care). Desecrate is similarly very easy to get your hands on, either through a deadwalker's ring or similar item, Arcane Disciple, or just knowing someone who can cast it. The negative energy blast for combat healing is nice, and I admit I overlooked it, but the thing is that the damage that's terrible on the attack isn't that hot on the healing either.
It is when used in AoE attacks, healing zombies and hurting opponents.

If you have Animate Dead 1/day, you're still going to have your control limit of undead most of the time, and that's going to be the chokepoint for your amount of undead. If it's hours/level, you'll just pad out your losses between fights from your bag of corpses. It's not actually a significant difference except for the part where you have to drag around a sack of corpses like an idiot.
No, you do not have to do that. The hour/level duration creates a) a corpse tax, which helps b) make it so that you aren't constantly surrounded by an undead brigade. An hour/level duration gives it to your for a day, which means that you get them and all associated benefits in combat, and your argument of "The fighter's longbow is dealing more damage that your eldritch blast" is somewhat mitigated by the Fire Giant that's power attacking for about as much as the fighter's regular attacks, and getting the advantages of your undead boosters as well. You will not, if you have the 1 hour/level duration, have enough corpses during an adventure to need a bag of holding to carry them around in. From your description, this character is carrying around a sack filled with infinite corpses. This is to prevent that, as when they use a corpse, they cannot reuse it, and they're unlikely to get a lot of damage in if they don't use it. And poaching good monsters to animate is an adventure in itself, most likely requiring the need of additional undead to complete.

Again, I grow tired of debating this point, as neither of us are willing to give ground, and neither of our posts are likely going to affect the class much.

SynissterSyster
2011-03-03, 10:30 PM
Yeah, so the thing is I know what it means.

You said you wanted to make sure you weren't IP proofed. That's.. not how it works.

IP proofing is proofing against iterative probability. Or, as the rest of us know it, "bein' hard to kill".

(like say by being a lich)

Let us not drag this thread down with a debate on IP proofing. The topic here more is the PrCs. Just going to say being undead isn't the best way to be survivable..especially if we follow this route of getting lichdom at level 14. That is all to say.

Benly
2011-03-03, 10:36 PM
It is when used in AoE attacks, healing zombies and hurting opponents.

It's better than most healing plans, yeah. It's still not better than, say, being able to drop a Cloudkill in the middle of the group will be. I admit it's pretty much the best trick you're getting in its place, though.


You will not, if you have the 1 hour/level duration, have enough corpses during an adventure to need a bag of holding to carry them around in. From your description, this character is carrying around a sack filled with infinite corpses. This is to prevent that, as when they use a corpse, they cannot reuse it, and they're unlikely to get a lot of damage in if they don't use it. And poaching good monsters to animate is an adventure in itself, most likely requiring the need of additional undead to complete.

If there's one thing adventurers produce a lot of, it's corpses. Personally I'm not a fan of skiving off whatever adventure you're theoretically on to go hunt down hydras, though.


Again, I grow tired of debating this point, as neither of us are willing to give ground, and neither of our posts are likely going to affect the class much.

The main reason I'm sticking to my guns here is that I really believe the class A: is currently close to unplayable BUT B: would be easy to fix (give it entry reqs more in line with published warlock hybrid classes, make its benefits less backloaded) and I would hate to see it sit as it is because "eh, it's good enough".

absolmorph
2011-03-04, 06:04 AM
The main reason I'm sticking to my guns here is that I really believe the class A: is currently close to unplayable BUT B: would be easy to fix (give it entry reqs more in line with published warlock hybrid classes, make its benefits less backloaded) and I would hate to see it sit as it is because "eh, it's good enough".
Commoner can be made into a viable PC. Just ask sonofzeal. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7097263&postcount=38)
No class is anywhere near unplayable so long as it gets skill points and WBL.
However, I agree with your general point. The class is, mechanically, quite weak, and is quite likely to be out-done by even a straight DN, simply because its biggest abilities (generating hordes of undead) are a step behind.

This Mystic Theurge fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166217) handled it in a way that I find quite elegant: at the end of the class, both classes will be advanced by any PrC that would advance one. So, a PrC that advances Invocing or Arcane spellcasting would advance both. This would mean a well-built Dread Mortician could get level 19 Warlock invocation and level 17 Dread Necromancer casting. It would, at the least, be a step in the right direction.
Placing the Corpsecrafter feats at 3, 6 and 9 would also help, since it would improve the undead generated. Also, undead technically can't be granted the fiendish template.

TheGeckoKing
2011-03-04, 11:11 AM
I'm growing tired of this. This will be my final edit because i'd like to do other things, quite frankly.


I'm going to copy that fix's capstone unashamedly, so at the very least they don't have to go into Eldritch Theruge when they max out DM.

Fiendish Bones will be clarified.


And I outright refuse to believe this class is near-unplayable because it has stunted spells/doesn't compare to a spellcaster of the same level. It's a Warlock/DN theurge, for crying out loud. If you wanted Necromancer spells, you should of played a Necromancer specialist Wizard, at the very least.

Benly
2011-03-04, 01:20 PM
First, having slept on things, I apologize for my overly confrontational tone. I was excessively aggressive because I really like the idea of the class, and it wasn't until doing out the numbers that I realized how badly it crippled a character coming from the perspective of a dread necromancer. Because I had overlooked its problems at first, I got the idea that people needed to be alerted to its non-obvious problems.



And I outright refuse to believe this class is near-unplayable because it has stunted spells/doesn't compare to a spellcaster of the same level. It's a Warlock/DN theurge, for crying out loud. If you wanted Necromancer spells, you should of played a Necromancer specialist Wizard, at the very least.

I will correct that to "near unplayable from the perspective of a DN prestige class". If you're looking solely from the perspective of a warlock prestige class, it compares favorably, although even then it still has problems.

It has entry requirements that don't match up to existing warlock theurges, and for all the problems with existing warlock theurges making them require only one level of Warlock is a pretty good idea. Looking at it from the dread necromancer perspective, three-level multiclass requirements on a prestige class for a pure caster class that's already on sorcerer progression really is incredibly crippling, and warlock powers just don't make up for it.

If it was entered via DN3/Wrl1 it would be playable - sub-optimal, but playable, and that's all that I ask for because not everything has to be optimal. Those two levels make a huge difference with spellcasters. Reducing the level on free undead would go a reasonably long way to helping make up for the remaining lost level because right now the real benefits are all backloaded: free undead, lich, and fiendish undead (assuming they give non-mindless status, it is a serious benefit I had overlooked) are all in the last few levels.

Maybe have it require 1d6 EB, charnel touch, and then use skill requirements to enforce whatever level of entry you want? That way warlocks who want a sideline in necromancy can still do it with a dip, and necromancers who want a fiendish touch can do the same. Skill rank requirements are an extremely effective way of maintaining the level requirements on a prestige class.

TheGeckoKing
2011-03-04, 01:49 PM
I'm going to leave it how it is, for the simple fact that giving it near-fullcasting would be silly. A one level dip for free lichdom, free fiendish undead, free corpsecrafter feats and invocations (saving a few of DN's versatility problems)? In short, there's a reason why they need 3 levels in Warlock, and i'm not going to swap around and edit all the class abilities like I did last time just because not giving the player 9th's is some sort of blasphemy.

Benly
2011-03-04, 01:52 PM
I'm going to leave it how it is, for the simple fact that giving it near-fullcasting would be silly. A one level dip for free lichdom, free fiendish undead, free corpsecrafter feats and invocations (saving a few of DN's versatility problems)? In short, there's a reason why they need 3 levels in Warlock, and i'm not going to swap around and edit all the class abilities like I did last time just because not giving the player 9th's is some sort of blasphemy.

I don't care about 9th level spells. I care about being fully playable in the 6-13 level range, because that's when so much actual play happens. And the problem is that being two spell levels behind for your entire career right from the start, in exchange for decent abilities only kicking in at the end of that range, is a rather raw deal.

But okay, whatever. I'm sorry that I was overly aggressive, but I can't force you to make your class playable.

TheGeckoKing
2011-03-04, 01:58 PM
I don't care about 9th level spells. I care about being fully playable in the 6-13 level range, because that's when so much actual play happens. And the problem is that being two spell levels behind for your entire career right from the start, in exchange for decent abilities only kicking in at the end of that range, is a rather raw deal.

But okay, whatever. I'm sorry that I was overly aggressive, but I can't force you to make your class playable.

And I can't force you to not insult my work, so whatever.

Benly
2011-03-04, 02:09 PM
And I can't force you to not insult my work, so whatever.

I'm not trying to insult you, I'm trying to point out a serious design flaw. I really like the class you've designed, which is why I give a dang about actually trying to convince you to fix the mechanical problems with it.

TheGeckoKing
2011-03-04, 02:10 PM
Well, you've insulted me anyway, and so I simply cannot be bothered to work on this anymore.
End of.