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huyche
2011-02-17, 10:24 AM
Hello, everyone!

Firstly, I'll depict the background, so you know the whys and wherefores of the matter.

I recently joined a DND3.5 gaming group, but haven't played DND IRL before.
It was decided we'd start a new campaign, with all of the characters to be generated before the first session and the stats rolled by GM.
My batch, IIRC, was 18 16 13 12 11 7. I had one particular character concept in mind, a dwarven ranger/barbarian, so, naturally, I assigned the '7' to his charisma score, making it a '5' with the racial mod, as it perfectly fit the backstory I had prepared for him.
You can probably already guess that this was where the issue had occurred.

The participants had arrived at the gaming club and we all were chatting merrily in anticipation of the upcoming game. Then one of the players glanced over my character sheet.
All of a sudden he started calling me names such as 'munchkin' and 'optimizer' (used like an insult), shouting all the way, and finished with swearing he would never play with such a character in a party with him.
Apparently, my character's charisma score made him this furious. When he calmed down a bit he explained that in his opinion a character can be a cripple (low dex) or a retard/simpleton (low int/wis), but low charisma would be an obvious munchkin case.
GM attempted to reason with him, though it seemed to me that this player was an old friend of his and GM would never pick me over him. The others were simply watching how this issue would be resolved.
A bit later it turned out another player had a dwarf character with a charisma of 5, but it was alright with the loud-mouth, as that player was experienced and would never 'optimize'. His explanation for such an unpleasant character was some herp-derp curse his dwarf had caught in the dungeons.

Obviously, I had to leave so that they could continue playing in peace. No reasoning of mine with that annoying player could make him change his mind. I even elaborated on my character's story, but to no avail.


I'm bringing it to light, as I would like to hear your opinions of what could've been done on my side or should I even consider compromising with his kind in future.


PS: Not delving too much into the specifics, according to my story the dwarf was disfigured by a small pack of dire rats, because he had to take refuge and spent the night in their nest, not recognizing the fissure he hid in for what it was.

Choco
2011-02-17, 10:35 AM
IMO you did the right thing. It aint worth the effort accommodating jackasses like that. If you had somehow stayed, he would have most likely been a thorn in your side (and thus, an impediment to you having fun) the entire time.

On a somewhat related note, I still don't get why people attribute physical characteristics to charisma score. Charisma is a mental stat, it is 100% personality. There is a reason it stays the same if you swap bodies :smalltongue:

Tyndmyr
2011-02-17, 10:36 AM
The answer to your solution is fire. Lots and lots of fire.

It's the only cure for someone that irrational.

huyche
2011-02-17, 10:43 AM
On a somewhat related note, I still don't get why people attribute physical characteristics to charisma score. Charisma is a mental stat, it is 100% personality. There is a reason it stays the same if you swap bodies
That is primarily due to me no matter what still believing it to be a characteristic of visual appearance.
But physical disfigurement counts towards being an unpleasant person, correct?

Tankadin
2011-02-17, 10:50 AM
That is primarily due to me no matter what still believing it to be a characteristic of visual appearance.
But physical disfigurement counts towards being an unpleasant person, correct?

It could. But a scar or eyepatch could also make someone have an air of mysterious or dangerous appeal. The number is an abstraction--how you fluff it is up to you. There are lots of beautiful people out there that aren't any fun to be around and there are some goofy-looking people beloved by many. Christie Brinkley was married to Billy Joel for a long time. Slavoj Zizek is awfully homely but he's married to a model.

huyche
2011-02-17, 10:56 AM
Not to derail my own thread, but

Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.
There is still physical attractiveness, so if he is ugly as sin, it strongly works against whatever magnetism he can potentially have.

To add insult to injury, I wasn't even disregarding the social skills and put quite a few points into intimidation and planned to use it. He just didn't care to check.


It could. But a scar or eyepatch could also make someone have an air of mysterious or dangerous appeal.
What if someone is missing an ear? An eyelid, so that his eye is constantly watering? If his nostril was chewed off and replaced by a hole populated by a bush of thick short black hair? Instead of lips - 2 scars barely meeting, demonstrating a mouthful of decayed teeth. Only his right side reacts to emotion, while the left one is just convulsing. Overall his wounds have healed badly and fester at times.

Enough for a '5' in charisma?

Comet
2011-02-17, 10:59 AM
That story is just sad. They give the hobby a bad name, the people who pretend to be dwarves and elves because they lack social skills in the real world and take the entire thing so seriously, thinking that their 'good roleplaying' is actually something that makes them better people.

Roleplaying games are about having fun. You are not having fun because one of the players is hurt in the head.

Send some sort of message (e-mail or whatever) to the DM, explaining that you are not willing to play in the group if all you're going to hear are accusations about how you're 'doing it wrong'.

I mean, it could have been a misunderstanding, maybe the player just had a bad night. See if the DM can sort this out, maybe get an apology out of the wonderplayer. If not, no huge harm, just walk away and find a group that isn't quite so in love with their dwarvish superiority.

Choco
2011-02-17, 11:00 AM
Not to derail my own thread, but

Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.
There is still physical attractiveness, so if he is ugly as sin, it strongly works against whatever magnetism he can potentially have.

To add insult to injury, I wasn't even disregarding the social skills and put quite a few points into intimidation and planned to use it. He just didn't care to check.

Yeeesh, we just ignore the "physical attractiveness" part in our group, it just doesn't make sense when combined with some other rules (like body swapping). Point taken though.

But yeah, don't worry about finding even MORE fault with this guy. You are already quite aware that he is a jackass, no need to keep looking for more evidence just to confirm it.

In a way you got lucky, he COULD have been the DM, let you start playing, and then promptly make the character's life a living hell. All the while telling you it's your own fault for being a munchkin, of course.

huyche
2011-02-17, 11:10 AM
See if the DM can sort this out, maybe get an apology out of the wonderplayer. If not, no huge harm, just walk away and find a group that isn't quite so in love with their dwarvish superiority.
Well, he apologized alright, for the swearing at me.

This is how I decided to play at GitP, BTW :)

Funny thing, I proposed we reroll stats if they get below a reasonable value after the racial modifiers, but it was met with a even bigger ****storm - this was where I left the club.

Lord Vampyre
2011-02-17, 11:17 AM
You were right to walk away. It is unfortunate that this was you first experience with a real life game, but the player obviously took a dislike to you for some reason. Maybe it's an attention issue of his, or he likes control. Whatever his problem, try not to let it affect your enjoyment.

Every player tries to optimize their character to some extent. It is called playing to one's strengths. It wouldn't make sense for you to have put the low stat in Str or Dex and tried to play a barbarian/ranger. Or put the 7 in intelligence when playing a wizard.

Unfortunately, your best bet is to find another gaming group. Yes, it can be difficult, but playing with someone as uncharitable as the guy who called you a munchkin, while his buddy did the same thing, would probably have ruined the experience for you.

Now, if it really is the only game in town, and you really want to play: talk to the DM. He is going to have to make the call.

huyche
2011-02-17, 11:27 AM
but the player obviously took a dislike to you for some reason.
Now, this sent me a hint. I have a feeling he probably didn't like me because I've minmaxed a drow enchanter in a Icewind Dale 2 game we had over the internet before... But that reason would be beyond ridiculous.


Now, if it really is the only game in town, and you really want to play: talk to the DM. He is going to have to make the call.
Unfortunately, its the most readily available group I can play with. They've started the campaign already, nothing I can do to participate. Maybe something simple but entertaining will come up on GitP PBP forum.

Valameer
2011-02-17, 11:50 AM
That story is just sad. They give the hobby a bad name, the people who pretend to be dwarves and elves because they lack social skills in the real world and take the entire thing so seriously, thinking that their 'good roleplaying' is actually something that makes them better people.

I... feel like this is bordering on something similar to the Stormwind fallacy. People who enjoy heavy roleplaying are not exclusively jerks, or anti-optimizers.

Yet people often conflate "heavy roleplayer" with "social outcast."

The original post didn't lead me to believe that the group in question were particularly decent roleplayers; it only showed how 'anti-optimization' the group was. Remember that anti-optimization and heavy roleplaying are not the same thing.

Jay R
2011-02-17, 11:57 AM
1. You brought in a dwarf with CHA 5.
2. Another guy brought in a dwarf with CHA 5.
3. The loudmouth shouted at you, yelling insults.
4. The loudmouth did not insult or yell at the other guy.

It's not about a dwarf with CHA 5. If it were, he'd have shouted at you both.

No, it was rampant prejudice and unfairness, aimed at the new guy. And they all know it.

Here are my recommendations:
1. Do not play with the loudmouth. He will never be fair to you.
2. Do not play with that DM. He has made it clear that he will rule against you, even when you're in the right, if another player yells enough.
3. Do not play with any players who tolerate that level of unfair and rude behavior.
4. In any discussions with them, keep your voice low and your tone cheerful. Make it impossible for them to equate you with the loudmouth.

And be glad you found out what they are at the first session, and didn't waste much time getting involved in a game with such people.

Go find a game with people who will be fun to be around.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-17, 11:59 AM
Yet people often conflate "heavy roleplayer" with "social outcast."

In fairness, if you're not playing the game for the mechanics or the roleplaying, why are you playing it? Sure, there's the possibility of just playing for something to do with your friends, but it doesn't seem like this guy was really aiming for that.

So, it only really leaves roleplaying as his motivation.

Valameer
2011-02-17, 12:08 PM
I've seen a few groups that are poor optimizers and also poor roleplayers. It's purely a social thing to them.

They don't think they are 'doing it wrong' by any means. In fact, some of them think their core blaster mage is pretty darn powerful.

Just be careful, because there's an inverse to the Stormwind fallacy, and I see people treading there all the time.

Good optimization != bad roleplaying
Poor optimization != good roleplaying

These guys were elitist, no doubt, but that doesn't make them good roleplayers either.

Also - huyche, I hope you find a better group. Those guys really don't seem worth playing with if they're willing to let you be treated like that. Move on, and never look back. You dodged a bullet, really.

BRC
2011-02-17, 12:14 PM
I can see where he was coming from. Dosn't make him right to react that way.
Charisma is the least useful stat from the Powergamer's perspective, since unless you're a cha based caster it has absolutely no benefit when it comes to smashing faces. It probably comes from building characters with Point Buy and squeezing every bonus possible out of a character by taking penalties for things you never intend to use.
In your case you just took a set of rolls and assigned them according to your priorities. It happened to look similar to Munkinery and min-maxery, but it wasn't.

Pentachoron
2011-02-17, 12:20 PM
I've seen a few groups that are poor optimizers and also poor roleplayers. It's purely a social thing to them.

They don't think they are 'doing it wrong' by any means. In fact, some of them think their core blaster mage is pretty darn powerful.

My group is a lot like that, we don't optimize at all (as far as I can tell I'm the only one aware of it, and I've only recently become aware of the tier system and all of that, though obviously in 11 years with 3.X I've had inklings) but we're also not heavy on the roleplay, we're just all really good friends and enjoy throwing characters together and having a good time.

That said, OP, I'd really try and just find another group, start another group if you have to, if you work at it you should be able to find something.

huyche
2011-02-17, 12:20 PM
Thanks everyone for your opinions. Before, I was beginning to think that maybe I was wrong in trashing the character's charisma, although it seemed fitting the concept at first.


Poor optimization != good roleplaying
This most likely lies in the core of the matter. He prided himself in playing 'unoptimized' characters in past, with something like 14 being highest of the stats. But I can't imagine someone showing good roleplaying with such attitude towards others.

Vangor
2011-02-17, 12:33 PM
Thanks everyone for your opinions. Before, I was beginning to think that maybe I was wrong in trashing the character's charisma, although it seemed fitting the concept at first.

Players often forget the character without charisma is one choosing a life where charisma is of extremely little use. For a Ranger/Barbarian, you're by yourself, generally only interacting with animals, with a powerful rage inside, and to make matters worse you are a Dwarf. I can see no reason your character would ever work on his charisma, and he has little way to have worked on this.

As for the disfigurement, I wouldn't frankly see this as a significantly better rationale than a curse.


Yet people often conflate "heavy roleplayer" with "social outcast."

Well, we should divide heavy roleplayers from good roleplayers. People who heavily roleplay, to me, tend to have characters which are merely sets of pronounced traits and flaws, generating paladin'esque personalities. You can guess every in-character response to any given scenario because they are caricatures. Those tend to be a little socially stunted, in my experience, defining themselves and others by simple strengths and weaknesses.

Good roleplayers, on the other hand, have a plethora of social experiences to draw from and use those and the people they know and interact with to create interesting, diverse characters. As with all people, the player has to make a difficult choice in character when presented with social and moral situations. Plus, the actions of good roleplayers tend to be somewhere within the "not-causing-a-ruckus-in-party" zone.

stainboy
2011-02-17, 12:40 PM
Ghasts have a 16 Charisma. The only meaning that number has is the meaning you give it. You can spin Charisma however you want.

Anyway, I suspect part of the reason the shrill angry nerd was so shrill and angry was that you were bringing in a character who was similar to one already in the game. Which wasn't your fault and he should have kept it in check.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-17, 12:44 PM
I've seen a few groups that are poor optimizers and also poor roleplayers. It's purely a social thing to them.

And the guy that was calling him out wasn't being very social, now was he?

I don't claim that they are *good* roleplayers...only that they are likely motivated by roleplaying concerns, however misguided they may be.

Keld Denar
2011-02-17, 02:09 PM
You don't need good stats to optimize. You can make some great, effective builds with low stats. Granted, some builds are slightly more stat dependant, but so is a level 20 paladin...

The Cha thing is mostly a holdover from 2e, from what I've seen. Unless you were a paladin, Cha was worthless. Nobody cast based on Cha. Cha didn't affect your saves. Cha only affected your reaction modifier, which was really a minor part of most games anyway. Cha was the most frequently dumped stat because it did the least amount of work. Period. I remember someone here on the forums even had a sig from long ago that defamed people who dump Cha, which really ticked me off. In reality, you generally aren't gonna put your highest stat in Cha if it doesn't give you some advantage...you are gonna put that 15+ in your Str, or in Dex, or in Int, or Wis, or in Con. Yea, that might be min/maxing, but its just smart character design. If a stat doesn't do any work, why put your higher scores in it? The life of an adventurer is hard, and if you aren't cut out to be a dungeon delver...you probably shouldn't be a dungeon delver, or your insides might end up as dungeon wall paint.

Now, in 3rd ed, especially 3.5, Cha is much more useful. Look at the X to Y stat thread. Cha has the longest list. You can literally add Cha to EVERYTHING, sometimes multiple times. Still, the stigma persists, though, that people who dump Cha when it isn't needed are munchkins.

nedz
2011-02-17, 03:24 PM
OK
If we take what he said at face value: they guy looked at your character sheet and made decisions based upon what he saw.

Thats
a) unethical
b) metagaming

It seems that if you were to play with this group then you would need a way to manage this person. I fully understand your reasons for dropping out, but he might have mellowed.