[3.5] Firearms [New Weapons]

[arguskos]

Ok, warning up-front, what you're about to see has about as much to do with reality as the rest of D&D. :smalltongue: Ye be warned. I'm only posting them for easy access later, and so I can say I'm still active with brew. :smalltongue:

Now, with that out of the way, I've been working on a few firearms for an upcoming pen-and-paper D&D 3.5 game I'm running. These are meant to fill in a specific ranged weapon niche beside crossbows and bows. Crossbows at Simple, Bows at Martial, Firearms at Exotic; Crossbows are easy to use, have the largest crit range, and reasonable damage (though no stats get added); Bows have the best range, easiest reload, and add Strength with ease; Firearms have short range and are tough to use, but deal great damage with a good crit range. They're not perfectly balanced, but they should be good enough to bother with a feat for.

The firearm reload rules are as follows:
-Single-shot firearms are a standard action to reload. The Firearm Proficiency feat and the Rapid Reload feat each reduce the reload time by one step (from standard to move to free).

Table: Firearms

FirearmsCostDmg (S)Dmg (M)CriticalRange IncrementWeightType

One-Handed Firearms

Pistol
200 gp
1d10
1d12
x3
50 ft
3 lbs.Piercing

Revolver
300 gp
1d10
1d12
x3
60 ft
4 lbs.Piercing

Two-Handed Firearms

Bolt-Action Rifle
800 gp
2d10
2d12
x3
120 ft
8 lbs.Piercing

Long Distance Rifle
1200 gp
1d12
2d8
x3
300 ft
12 lbs.Piercing

Siege Weaponry

Repeating Rifle
2000 gp
1d8
1d10
x3
120 ft
80 lbs.Piercing

Ammunition

Pistol Round
1 sp
-
-
-
-
1/2 lbs.-

Rifle Round
5 sp
-
-
-
-
1/2 lbs.-

Melee Weaponry

Gun Butt
-
1d4
1d6
x2
-
As gunBludgeoning

Bayonet
5 gp
1d6
1d8
19-20/x2
-
As gunPiercing




Weapon Details:

Pistol: The basic one-handed percussion cap firearm, the pistol is the default sidearm weapon of anyone who uses firearms. A pistol holds one shot.

Revolver: An experimental weapon developed by a singular dwarven clan, the revolver is a pistol with a rotating clip of 5 shots, permitting it to engage in iterative attacks. Reloading the clip is a full-round action, standard with Rapid Reload.

Bolt-Action Rifle: The standard two-handed firearm, the bolt-action rifle provides power at range, at the cost of reloading time. The bolt-action rifle holds one shot.

Long Distance Rifle: Much like the revolver, the long distance rifle (LDR) is an experimental rifle variant that uses a lighter round that flies farther than normal firearms. The LDR holds one shot.

Repeating Rifle: Not a handheld weapon, the repeating rifle is 6 bolt-action rifles strapped to a rotating mechanism and gravity fed rounds from a 3-ft long magazine. A repeating rifle is the size of a small catapult and requires a crew of three to operate. However, it fire 6 times per attack and can burn the entire magazine in a few minutes of sustained fire. Repeating rifles are large and are mounted on fortification walls or on wheels for transportation. Reloading a repeating rifle takes two people and 1 minute. A repeating rifle magazine holds 180 rounds, and costs 90 gp.

Gun Butt: Just the handle or stock of a firearm, the gun butt is a handy secondary weapon, in the case of someone closing to melee range. The gun butt deals the same damage, no matter the weapon. The gun butt of a pistol or revolver is a one-handed weapon for purposes of Strength to damage, and the gun butt of a rifle or LDR is a two-handed weapon for purposes of Strength to damage. Gun butts benefit from the enhancement bonus of the firearm, but not any other magical enhancements (ie. when using a +2 flaming revolver for a gun butt attack, you gain the +2 bonus to attacks and damage, but not the +1d6 fire damage). Gun butts benefit from the Weapon Focus feat for the firearm they're attached to.

Bayonet: Functionally a dagger hung from the barrel of a rifle weapon, the bayonet makes a fine melee weapon for the rifle user in a hurry to just stab someone after shooting them. A bayonet can only be attached to a rifle, and counts as a two-handed weapon for purposes of Strength to damage. Attaching or detaching a bayonet takes a standard action. Bayonets are enchanted separately from the firearm they're attached to. Bayonets benefit from the Weapon Focus feat for the firearm they're attached to.

New Feats!
By unosarta:
Eyes of the Sniper [Tactical]
You gain abilities of stealth and movement that allow you kill your enemies most efficiently.
Prerequisites: Far Shot, Hide 9 ranks, Spot 9 ranks, Base Attack Bonus +6; Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms) or Weapon Focus with a type of Bow or ranged weapon
Benefits: You gain new maneuvers

Keen Eyes: As a standard action, you may study your enemy. You may make a spot check, with a DC equal to your enemy’s Hit Dice. If you make the check, you deal an extra 1d6 per four hit dice you possess on all ranged attacks made against that opponent for the rest of the encounter (minimum 1d6). You also may ignore any cover besides full cover that that target has, and you may ignore any damage reduction they possess.

Shot on the Run: As a full round action, you may move up to your base land speed and make a full attack action, with all attacks in the round made at a -2 penalty. You may make a Hide check while moving in this way even if you do not have cover, as if you had Hide-in-Plain-Sight ability, at no penalty.

Camouflage: As a move action, you may camouflage yourself. As long as you do not move more than 5 feet per round, you gain a +5 bonus to all hide checks while camouflaged. If you make a ranged attack against an enemy, they take a -5 penalty to the spot check in order to locate you. If you do move, you lose these benefits, and can regain them as a move action.

Long Arm of the Law [Tactical]
Your training with rifles, guns, and other ranged guns has given you new combat maneuvers.
Prerequisites: Point-Blank Shot, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms), Base Attack Bonus +6
Benefits: You gain new combat maneuvers

Sparrow Shot: As a standard action, you may make a ranged touch attack against an opponent within range with a firearm. If you hit, you deal half of the damage you would have done normally, and that target's movement speed is reduced by 5 feet. If the attack is a critical hit, the movement speed reduction is multiplied by the critical hit multiplier. This ability stacks with itself, but the target's movement speeds cannot ever be reduced lower than 5 feet in this way.

Eyes of the Just: As a move action, you may stare down your target. You may make an Intimidate check, opposed by his opponent's modified level check (as detailed in the Intimidate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/intimidate.htm) entry of the SRD, or the player's handbook). If you beat the opponents opposed check, you may make a ranged attack against that opponent, with a +5 bonus to the shot.

Silver's Charge: While mounted, you may, as a full round action, have you mount charge in any direction, moving a distance of up to twice its base land speed. While moving, you may make a full attack against a single opponent as a swift action.

By Mulletmanalive:

Fancy Shootin' [Tactical]:
You have learned, at the cost of a large number of bottles, to shoot in some rather odd ways.
Prerequisites: BAB +4, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Decription: You gain the following abilities, all of which are Fear effects:

Buzzing Insects [Strike]: As a Standard action, you may fire a shot at your target that doesn't hit but goes so close to their ear as to hurt and disorient them. Make a touch attack against the target; if it hits, the target must make a Fortitude save or be Deafened for 5 rounds and Stunned for one round. Deaf targets are immune to this trick.

Dance Pardner [Strike]: As a Standard or Full action, you may fire several shots into the ground around the feet of a target within one range category. The target must make a Will save, DC 5 + BAB or move 5ft in a direction of your choice. If you are able to fire multiple shots via a special ability or high level, you gain a +2 bonus to the save DC per additional shot fired.

Riccochets [Strike]: As a Standard or Full action, you can fire bullets at targets in cover to keep them there. Targets in a 10ft square must make a Will save, DC 5 + BAB or be unable to move or stand up if prone for one round. If you can make multiple attacks via a feat, ability or high BAB, each additional shot increases the DC by +2.


By me!
Firearm Knockback [Fighter, Firearm]
You've managed a technique that's deemed suicidally insane by most, that of the knockback and fire.
Prerequisites: Firearm Proficiency, Weapon Focus (any firearm), Improved Bull Rush
Benefits: As a standard action, you can perform a firearm knockback. You make a single attack at your highest attack bonus with the gun butt of the firearm for which you have Weapon Focus. If you hit the target, you make a bull rush attempt against them. If you succeed in pushing them back at least 5-ft, you can then make a single attack with your firearm at your highest attack bonus. If you fail to push them back, the firearm knockback fails.
Normal: You can't do the above.

Focus Fire [Fighter, Firearm]
Your ability to aim is incredible, far surpassing your peers.
Prerequisites: Firearm Proficiency, Weapon Focus (any two-handed firearm), Far Shot, BAB +6
Benefits: As a full-round action, you may take aim at an opponent. For each round that you aim in this way, you gain a cumulative +1 circumstance bonus to your next attack (so +1 total in the first round, +2 total in the second, +3 total in the third, etc). You may aim in this way for up to your character level/two rounds. At the end of any round in which you are aiming, you can fire as part of that action.

Superior Focus Fire [Fighter, Firearm]
Your aim is legendary, and you can hit targets with pinpoint accuracy.
Prerequisites: Firearm Proficiency, Weapon Focus (any two-handed firearm), Far Shot, Focus Fire, BAB +11
Benefits: When you use Focus Fire, you instead gain a scaling bonus to your next attack (so +1 total in the first round, +3 total in the second, +6 total in the third, etc). However, you can only aim for up to your character level/three rounds now.

[Sdonourg]

Looks pretty good, useful and balanced in my opinion.

[GnomeWorks]

Ken Hood's firearm rules (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=26737#post420428) (link leads to a post with an attached zip file).

[arguskos]

Looks pretty good, useful and balanced in my opinion.
Good. I was unsure if this was an appropriate set-up for a dabble into the firearm arts.


Ken Hood's firearm rules (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=26737#post420428) (link leads to a post with an attached zip file).
While nice of you to provide a link, I would kinda appreciate more than "use someone else's work". Why should I use that? Is there an overarching issue with my ideas above? If so, I'd appreciate you explaining it, so I can fix it.

[Human Paragon 3]

I'd up the damage dice on the one-shot weapons to make them more useful compared to a bow and arrow. There's a gun thread right above this one where I lay out my firearm rules with a few explanations. I also lay out rules for suppressive fire and a few feats. Note that I designed my guns to fit into D&D, not mimic real-world firearms.

For instance, looking at the pistol, is there any advantage to carrying one over a bow?

[Cieyrin]

For instance, looking at the pistol, is there any advantage to carrying one over a bow?

The way his reload rules currently are, if you get the reload down to a free action, you can dual wield a pair of pistols, which I find lulzy but that's just me. :smallbiggrin:

[arguskos]

The way his reload rules currently are, if you get the reload down to a free action, you can dual wield a pair of pistols, which I find lulzy but that's just me. :smallbiggrin:
Bingo. Also, damage die size.

The idea was to create a viable alternative without overpowering the guns or obsoleting bows/crossbows. Your rules, Gaurd Juris, seem to REPLACE bows/crossbows, or at least do it very effectively. Remember, any feats that exist for ranged combat apply here as well, as would many prestige classes (unless your DM is a ****, which sucks).

I'll admit to kinda wanting to see someone dual-wield revolvers. There'd be a penalty, but it's be pretty neato. Also, the New York Reload (drop the pistol, pull a new one, keep shooting) is totally possible here thanks to Quick Draw, which is awesome.

[Human Paragon 3]

Reloading a 1-shot pistol as a free action seems kind of ridiculous. That being said, the only advantage over a cross bow I can see is you can reload it faster by spending an extra feat. The pistol doesn't seem especially different than the light crossbow in this way, other than a small damage upgrade. You could easily just make an improved rapid reload feat for x-bows that make reloading a free action and you'd have almost the same weapon.

I would say that my rules replace cross bows, but normal bows are still viable since reloading them is always a free action, and reloading a gun never is! I actually developed the rifle for a revolutionary war game to make muskets viable vs. Indian bows and arrows. I needed them to be actually effective. The idea is to match the effectiveness of a bow in a gameplay perspective.

Firing a pistol, dropping it, and free-drawing a second pistol is totally bad ass though. It would be even more bad ass if it dealt 2d6 damage. : ) Ditto for dual-wielding revolvers.

[arguskos]

Reloading a 1-shot pistol as a free action seems kind of ridiculous. That being said, the only advantage over a cross bow I can see is you can reload it faster by spending an extra feat. The pistol doesn't seem especially different than the light crossbow in this way, other than a small damage upgrade. You could easily just make an improved rapid reload feat for x-bows that make reloading a free action and you'd have almost the same weapon.
Why is it ridiculous? I mean, IRL, a skilled user can breech-load a rifle in under 3 seconds (seen it done multiple times, I know it's possible). Why should a percussion cap pistol be any different?

Besides, this is D&D, home of the crazy and far out there rules! :smallbiggrin: I'm letting it fly, cause it's awesome.


I would say that my rules replace cross bows, but normal bows are still viable since reloading them is always a free action, and reloading a gun never is! I actually developed the rifle for a revolutionary war game to make muskets viable vs. Indian bows and arrows. I needed them to be actually effective. The idea is to match the effectiveness of a bow in a gameplay perspective.
And in mine, Bows are still viable, due to better damage. Ah, you're wondering what I mean? Consider: bows can add Str to damage (and Dex, if you're sneaky). Guns don't add crap to damage (though, I'd totally allow Dex through the same tricks as bows can get it). Bows are still out damaging guns. Guns should have the advantage of higher base dice and badassery (which they totally do). Also, guns take TWO feats to get to free action reloads. Bows do it all the time forever.


Firing a pistol, dropping it, and free-drawing a second pistol is totally bad ass though. It would be even more bad ass if it dealt 2d6 damage. : ) Ditto for dual-wielding revolvers.
God love the New York Reload, god love it. My favorite was the following suggestion from a buddy of mine for high-level hilarity: Get Rapid Shot, Multishot, and the Improved version of both of those. Dual-wield revolvers. Burn your ENTIRE clip in each one every round. New York Reload. Do until everything's dead. It's basically lighting your money on fire, but it's so awesome no one cares (also, it's questionable as to the interactions here, but who cares, it's awesome).

Also, imagine a Kensai using a Bolt-Action or an LDR. :smallcool:

So far, I'm quite pleased with these rules. Should damage actually prove to be too low, I'll boost it in play, though I doubt that'll prove needed. In case though, I'll change it.

[Human Paragon 3]

Loading a pistol in three seconds isn't far fetched... that's a move action. Loading a pistol in 0 seconds with no free hands is far fetched.

The rules will probably function fine in practice, but I don't see the firearms you've presented here as viable compared to bows. They don't appear to be major upgrade in effectiveness on any level, and are overall a downgrade. I support giving guns a bigger damage die and letting bows still have their advantages--I did the same thing. I just don't think you went far enough.

Gun kensai would be awesome, however.

Oh, and consider my suppressive fire and taking aim rules (along with the feats that go with them). IMO that stuff is a big part of firefight combat.

[Cieyrin]

Since you're aimed at the Guns Akimbo line of firearm awesomeness, keep in mind enchanting multiple weapons gets expensive really fast, plus the problems that already exist with both ranged combat and two-weapon fighting (a.k.a. total feat sink). While I enjoy the imagery, it takes a while to setup, so you'll be piddling away for awhile before you can turn yourself into a badass.

Also, Rapid Shot only gives one extra attack, not one per weapon. Annoying, I know, which is why I explicitly point out that bit out in my Crossbow Slinger PrC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125255), should you want to see how I got crossbows up to Guns Akimbo.

Happy gunslinging! :D

[arguskos]

Loading a pistol in three seconds isn't far fetched... that's a move action. Loading a pistol in 0 seconds with no free hands is far fetched.
D&D. Seriously. You have people that, using a sword can sunder boulders. That's hardly realistic either, but there you have it. I'm fine with some unrealistic stuff, personally. :smallwink:


The rules will probably function fine in practice, but I don't see the firearms you've presented here as viable compared to bows. They don't appear to be major upgrade in effectiveness on any level, and are overall a downgrade. I support giving guns a bigger damage die and letting bows still have their advantages--I did the same thing. I just don't think you went far enough.
They should be, especially with free action reloads, when they're now suddenly bows with better base damage and no Str to damage (oh, and better range, at least on the rifles).

The pistols shouldn't be better than bows. They're PISTOLS, they're sidearms at best. They're not primary weapons. For example, who uses the Light Crossbow or Shortbow as their primary weapon?


Gun kensai would be awesome, however.
I'm hoping a player thinks of that, actually.


Oh, and consider my suppressive fire and taking aim rules (along with the feats that go with them). IMO that stuff is a big part of firefight combat.
I've thought about aiming rules, but there is ZERO reason bows or crossbows couldn't benefit as well. I may open those with a feat (Aiming Training) or some such, since precedent already exists in the Raptor School feat. Suppressive fire isn't happening, this game is not firearm focused (if it was, there'd be a lot more rules here, including rapid fire rules and far more guns, such as battle rifles, assault rifles, machine guns, machine pistols, missile and grenade launchers, etcetcetc :smallwink:). In fact, I might actually draw all that up at some point, for kicks.

EDIT: Cieryin (hope I got that right, I'm editing and can't actually SEE your name properly), I know that. I think Multishot and Improved Rapid Shot can help fix that though, at least partially. I'll have to fiddle with the numbers as this game goes (we're level 5 atm, so it's not super-relevant).

[Mayhem]

One reason pistols are better: They are more easily concealable than a crossbow/bow.
The rifles also have the benefit of being used as melee weapons, which can of course be applied to crossbows however they'd be much more awkward and thus take a stiffer attack penalty than rifles.

[I, Dashing Cube]

Loading a pistol in three seconds isn't far fetched... that's a move action. Loading a pistol in 0 seconds with no free hands is far fetched.


Ever heard about a certain Roland Deschain ? Like most fantasy characters, even if he is an awesome gunslinger, he probably isn't over level 8 in d&d. It is normal that someone reloading a weapon at such speed that it can be left out completely (a free action) seems incredibly far fetched to us, but it can and should be common past a certain level in d&d because we're entering the realm of heroes and superhumans here.


As for the general balance, it seems fine, but if people think that it takes to many feats to achieve a free action reload, than perhaps consider combining a few feats together ? Quick Draw (or even Improved Initiative) and Rapid Reload could easily be made into one and not break anybodies game. All those feats fit the usual concepts nicely and don't add any power to anyone else except crossbow wielders, who could take the power boost too.

[GnomeWorks]

I would kinda appreciate more than "use someone else's work".

Ignoring the work of others just because it isn't yours seems silly to me.


Why should I use that?

No. The question is why shouldn't you use it.

I have posted a link to a much lengthier document than your post, with significantly more customization options, explanations of why particular mechanics were chosen, and is significantly more fleshed-out than what you've got here.

So you tell me - why would I use your work over Ken Hood's? What does yours have to offer that's different, that makes it stand out, that makes the choice between yours and Ken Hood's work meaningful? Otherwise the only reason to use what you've got here is ignorance of the work of others, and that's a poor reason to choose one set of mechanics over another.

[Debihuman]

The firearm rules by Ken Hood are probably more real-world accurate, but without more examples, they aren't all that useful. I'm not going to work though the design features to see what comes up, I want examples ready to use.

Privater Press published a free 2-page pdf called Firearms Basics v1.0, which closely resembles the above chart. Here's the sample pistol for comparison:


Small Pistol: This weapon’s main virtue is that it is easy to conceal, being only 9 in. long. 400 gp, 2d4 piercing, reload 1S/DC6, crit
19–20/x3, range 40 ft., 4 lb.

Just to note: NPCs with awesome weapons skills probably have specific feats that go with them. It's not just the weapon.

Debby

[arguskos]

Ignoring the work of others just because it isn't yours seems silly to me.
That's not what I said. What I asked for was a reason to use his work. I didn't ignore it. In fact, I downloaded and read through it. I found it well done, if a bit not to my liking.


No. The question is why shouldn't you use it.
Because I like to do it myself? Because I don't agree with many of his base assumptions about the system? Because his design philosophy doesn't line up well with mine? There's a lot of reasons.


I have posted a link to a much lengthier document than your post, with significantly more customization options, explanations of why particular mechanics were chosen, and is significantly more fleshed-out than what you've got here.
And given that I specifically stated these rules are not meant to replace or override anything already extant in the game world, and that they're a small flavor addition, why would I want all of that?

Now, if I wanted a full set of detailed firearm rules for a Renissance or Civil War era game, ok, that's a good place to start. I don't, or I would have produced such a thing. :smallwink:


So you tell me - why would I use your work over Ken Hood's? What does yours have to offer that's different, that makes it stand out, that makes the choice between yours and Ken Hood's work meaningful? Otherwise the only reason to use what you've got here is ignorance of the work of others, and that's a poor reason to choose one set of mechanics over another.
You don't have to, nor do I care if you do or not. I provided this because *I'm* using it, and wanted an independent eye to check my work and tell me what I did wrong, if anything.

And, I must be honest, when I asked for a double-check, and someone provides a link to someone else's work with no explanation as to why, and then calls me ignorant, I'm somewhat disappointed. :smallfrown:

@Debihuman: I probably should figure out some new feats. I'll be working closely with the samurai (T.G. Oskar's Samurai, btws) player in this upcoming game to figure out what feats he's going to need/want that don't already exist, and then we'll make it happen. He's kind of the test bed for these rules.

[unosarta]

Just felt kind of inspired by the idea of a gun-totting Samurai. Here is a tactical feat. Tell me if you think it is too "western", and I can change parts of it.


Long Arm of the Law [Tactical]
Your training with rifles, guns, and other ranged guns has given you new combat maneuvers.
Prerequisites: Point-Blank Shot, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms), Base Attack Bonus +6
Benefits: You gain new combat maneuvers

Sparrow Shot: As a standard action, you may make a ranged touch attack against an opponent within range with a firearm. If you hit, you deal half of the damage you would have done normally, and that target's movement speed is reduced by 5 feet. If the attack is a critical hit, the movement speed reduction is multiplied by the critical hit multiplier. This ability stacks with itself, but the target's movement speeds cannot ever be reduced lower than 5 feet in this way.

Eyes of the Just: As a move action, you may stare down your target. You may make an Intimidate check, opposed by his opponent's modified level check (as detailed in the Intimidate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/intimidate.htm) entry of the SRD, or the player's handbook). If you beat the opponents opposed check, you may make a ranged attack against that opponent, with a +5 bonus to the shot.

Silver's Charge: While mounted, you may, as a full round action, have you mount charge in any direction, moving a distance of up to twice its base land speed. While moving, you may make a full attack against a single opponent as a swift action.

[playswithfire]

Looks good overall. Couple questions to make sure I understand a couple things.

Bayonet - why is there no cost? Do all rifles come with a bayonet included in the price? Or does "functionally a dagger" mean that you just buy a dagger and attach it to your rifle?

Gun butt and bayonet - do they get the enhancements of the rest of the gun or are they enhanced separately. Given the lack of cost, I'd assume that they either get the full weapon enhancement or maybe the enhancement bonus, but not the magical enhancements (e.g. you get +2 to attack and damage with the butt of a +2 flaming pistol, but not the d6 fire damage). I could see that making sense for gun butt, but Complete Scoundrel sort of set a precedent for bayonets with the bow blades (enhanced separate from the ranged weapon and an attack penalty), so I was wondering if you'd use those rules (probably dropping the attack penalty).

Random thought/suggestion (sort of depends on the answer to how gun butts are enhanced) - have you considered making rifles a double-weapon instead of a two-handed weapon? One end firing bullets or having the bayonet and the other end the gun butt. You would have the option to use only one and as a two-handed weapon instead (like how quarterstaff should be, but isn't). Just a thought, if only because it could be interesting to, say, have a character with knockback knock an opponent away with the gun butt before shooting him with the rifle end to avoid the AoO. Just a thought.

On the whole, like I said, looks good.

[Ashtagon]

Random thought/suggestion (sort of depends on the answer to how gun butts are enhanced) - have you considered making rifles a double-weapon instead of a two-handed weapon? One end firing bullets or having the bayonet and the other end the gun butt. You would have the option to use only one and as a two-handed weapon instead (like how quarterstaff should be, but isn't). Just a thought, if only because it could be interesting to, say, have a character with knockback knock an opponent away with the gun butt before shooting him with the rifle end to avoid the AoO. Just a thought.

If you want cinematic, that's pretty cool. If you want realistic, that is an extremely efficient way to literally shoot yourself in the foot, or possibly someplace more vital than your foot.

[drakir_nosslin]

Why is it ridiculous? I mean, IRL, a skilled user can breech-load a rifle in under 3 seconds (seen it done multiple times, I know it's possible). Why should a percussion cap pistol be any different?

Besides, this is D&D, home of the crazy and far out there rules! :smallbiggrin: I'm letting it fly, cause it's awesome.

I imagine reloading one handed would look something like this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJefHECtliA#t=5m09s) :smallcool:

[Nuzak Firehand]

I just love the smell of black powder in the morning

[Cieyrin]

(like how quarterstaff should be, but isn't)


Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaffs, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he or she incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.

The character can also choose to use a double weapon two handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

:smallconfused:

[Keinnicht]

Better than the DMG rules, that's for sure.

So, Firearm Proficiency applies to all of them, and reduces reload time by one step? That seems reasonable.

Also, I feel like gun butt attacks should provoke attacks of opportunity. I mean, while it's definitely effective, that is still basically as much of an improvised weapon as stabbing someone with a broken bottle or whapping them with a broom.

[arguskos]

Long Arm of the Law [Tactical]
Your training with rifles, guns, and other ranged guns has given you new combat maneuvers and additional benefits from your Samurai combat style.
Prerequisites: Improved Martial Discipline (Kyūjutsu), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms), Base Attack Bonus +6
Benefits: The Samurai gains new combat maneuvers

Sparrow Shot: As a standard action, the Samurai may make a ranged touch attack against an opponent within range with a firearm. If he hits, he deals half of the damage he would have done normally, and that target's movement speed is reduced by 5 feet. If the attack is a critical hit, the movement speed reduction is multiplied by the critical hit multiplier. This ability stacks with itself, but the target's movement speeds cannot ever be reduced lower than 5 feet in this way.

Eyes of the Just: As a move action, the Samurai may stare down his target. He may make an Intimidate check, opposed by his opponent's modified level check (as detailed in the Intimidate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/intimidate.htm) entry of the SRD, or the player's handbook). If he beats the opponents opposed check, he may make a ranged attack against that opponent, with a +5 bonus to the shot.

Silver's Charge: While mounted, the Samurai may, as a full round action, have his mount charge in any direction, moving a distance of up to twice its base land speed. While moving, the Samurai may make a full attack against a single opponent as a swift action.

Special: For the purposes of Samurai class features, Firearms count as bows or crossbows.
I actually really like this. However, is there any way we can divorce it from Samurai and make it a little more broadly applicable for all firearm wielders? I love tactical feats and I love the Western Gunslinger feel I get from this one specifically, but want non-samurai to be able to get in there as well.

Also, out of curiosity, why is Silver's Charge in there? :smallconfused:


Bayonet - why is there no cost? Do all rifles come with a bayonet included in the price? Or does "functionally a dagger" mean that you just buy a dagger and attach it to your rifle?
Well. That's a great question. However, if you look closely, you'll see there is indeed a cost. :smallwink: I forgot one, thanks for the reminder


Gun butt and bayonet - do they get the enhancements of the rest of the gun or are they enhanced separately. Given the lack of cost, I'd assume that they either get the full weapon enhancement or maybe the enhancement bonus, but not the magical enhancements (e.g. you get +2 to attack and damage with the butt of a +2 flaming pistol, but not the d6 fire damage). I could see that making sense for gun butt, but Complete Scoundrel sort of set a precedent for bayonets with the bow blades (enhanced separate from the ranged weapon and an attack penalty), so I was wondering if you'd use those rules (probably dropping the attack penalty).
Bayonets are enchanted separately. There is no attack penalty for stabbing a guy with a bayonet, since it's basically just a spear at that point. I'll note the enchantment thing above.

Gun butts gain the enhancement bonus of the gun to attacks and damage, but not the special effects, as befits their place as a last-ditch weapon. I'll make a note of that above.


Random thought/suggestion (sort of depends on the answer to how gun butts are enhanced) - have you considered making rifles a double-weapon instead of a two-handed weapon? One end firing bullets or having the bayonet and the other end the gun butt. You would have the option to use only one and as a two-handed weapon instead (like how quarterstaff should be, but isn't). Just a thought, if only because it could be interesting to, say, have a character with knockback knock an opponent away with the gun butt before shooting him with the rifle end to avoid the AoO. Just a thought.
That's a very interesting idea. I may actually go for a feat in that line. Let's see how this looks...

Firearm Knockback [Fighter, Firearm]
You've managed a technique that's deemed suicidally insane by most, that of the knockback and fire.
Prerequisites: Firearm Proficiency, Weapon Focus (any firearm), Improved Bull Rush
Benefits: As a standard action, you can perform a firearm knockback. You make a single attack at your highest attack bonus with the gun butt of the firearm for which you have Weapon Focus. If you hit the target, you make a bull rush attempt against them. If you succeed in pushing them back at least 5-ft, you can then make a single attack with your firearm at your highest attack bonus. If you fail to push them back, the firearm knockback fails.
Normal: You can't do the above.


On the whole, like I said, looks good.
Thanks!


If you want cinematic, that's pretty cool. If you want realistic, that is an extremely efficient way to literally shoot yourself in the foot, or possibly someplace more vital than your foot.
Oh yeah, it's a terrible idea when you factor in realism, but I think that, with some training, a special maneuver could be created that would let you gun butt someone, flip the gun around, and pop one off at them. I don't think it'd be the best of ideas, but it could be cool. See the above feat for a first-blush idea.


I imagine reloading one handed would look something like this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJefHECtliA#t=5m09s) :smallcool:
Indeed! A clever reload, that one. Though, reloading revolvers still takes a moment.

Pre-Edit: Cieyrin, many people miss that line. Dunno why.

Actual EDIT:

Better than the DMG rules, that's for sure.

So, Firearm Proficiency applies to all of them, and reduces reload time by one step? That seems reasonable.
Yep. I wanted to still require a feat, but make feat taxing too terrible.


Also, I feel like gun butt attacks should provoke attacks of opportunity. I mean, while it's definitely effective, that is still basically as much of an improvised weapon as stabbing someone with a broken bottle or whapping them with a broom.
Well, that's kinda rough. The idea of the gun butt as a weapon is so that when someone's right next to you, you don't have to suffer an AoO to still be useful. To be fair, I also don't think unarmed strikes (ie. punching a dude) should provoke either.

[Cieyrin]

Well, that's kinda rough. The idea of the gun butt as a weapon is so that when someone's right next to you, you don't have to suffer an AoO to still be useful. To be fair, I also don't think unarmed strikes (ie. punching a dude) should provoke either.

Having had bayonet training (admittedly, basic training was a long while ago, now), I'd agree that bashing someone in the face with the gun butt or using a rifle as a melee weapon is no more improvised or attack provoking than using it otherwise. It's not quite the same as smacking somebody with a bow, as firearms tend to be sturdier and can still fire after bludgeoning somebody.

[unosarta]

I actually really like this. However, is there any way we can divorce it from Samurai and make it a little more broadly applicable for all firearm wielders? I love tactical feats and I love the Western Gunslinger feel I get from this one specifically, but want non-samurai to be able to get in there as well.
I suppose. Really, none of the abilities are truly based on samurai abilities, but are certainly similar to them, I suppose.

Also, a Paladin with the Long Arm of the Law and Ranged Smite would be pretty fun. Or a ranger really.


Also, out of curiosity, why is Silver's Charge in there? :smallconfused:
Because the Samurai's Kyuujutsu line is based on the Japanese Hankyuu, which is a longbow used while mounted. A few of those abilities also give a bonus to riding stuff for that exact reason. Also, it is rather tropetastic for western shooters to also have a horse (which is what Silver is from, Silver being the Lone Ranger's horse). Shooting from a horse, or a horse chase-scene is a classic for any western movie or show. In actuality? Horses were really necessary in an area where the climate is really desperate and harsh.

[Edit]: And the feat is updated, no reference to Samurai, and all of the pronouns have been changed to second person, from third person.

[arguskos]

I suppose. Really, none of the abilities are truly based on samurai abilities, but are certainly similar to them, I suppose.

Also, a Paladin with the Long Arm of the Law and Ranged Smite would be pretty fun. Or a ranger really.
Yeah, that's the idea I had actually. Long Arm of the Law and other ranged attacks like Smite and whatnot would be a great combo.


Because the Samurai's Kyuujutsu line is based on the Japanese Hankyuu, which is a longbow used while mounted. A few of those abilities also give a bonus to riding stuff for that exact reason. Also, it is rather tropetastic for western shooters to also have a horse (which is what Silver is from, Silver being the Lone Ranger's horse). Shooting from a horse, or a horse chase-scene is a classic for any western movie or show. In actuality? Horses were really necessary in an area where the climate is really desperate and harsh.
Well, now I know. And knowing etcetcetc.

[unosarta]

Yeah, that's the idea I had actually. Long Arm of the Law and other ranged attacks like Smite and whatnot would be a great combo.
Man. I kind of want to go write some more tactical feats. They are fun.

A sniper feat seems in order.


Well, now I know. And knowing etcetcetc.
:smallwink:

[playswithfire]

:smallconfused:

Reading comprehension fail on my part. I thought I'd seen some homebrew that added that ability to the quarterstaff and assumed the SRD didn't do it. My bad.

[arguskos]

Man. I kind of want to go write some more tactical feats. They are fun.

A sniper feat seems in order.
Tac-feats are excellent, it's true. I've an idea or two for tac-feats myself.

[Mulletmanalive]

This is a tactical feat I've used for gunfighters in my games and while it's light hearted, i thought you might like it:

Fancy Shootin' [Tactical]:
You have learned, at the cost of a large number of bottles, to shoot in some rather odd ways.
Prerequisites: BAB +4, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Decription: You gain the following abilities, all of which are Fear effects:

Buzzing Insects [Strike]: As a Standard action, you may fire a shot at your target that doesn't hit but goes so close to their ear as to hurt and disorient them. Make a touch attack against the target; if it hits, the target must make a Fortitude save or be Deafened for 5 rounds and Stunned for one round. Deaf targets are immune to this trick.

Dance Pardner [Strike]: As a Standard or Full action, you may fire several shots into the ground around the feet of a target within one range category. The target must make a Will save, DC 5 + BAB or move 5ft in a direction of your choice. If you are able to fire multiple shots via a special ability or high level, you gain a +2 bonus to the save DC per additional shot fired.

Riccochets [Strike]: As a Standard or Full action, you can fire bullets at targets in cover to keep them there. Targets in a 10ft square must make a Will save, DC 5 + BAB or be unable to move or stand up if prone for one round. If you can make multiple attacks via a feat, ability or high BAB, each additional shot increases the DC by +2.

Feel free to play with it and adjust the DCs and stuff more to your tastes. I have a lot more stuff but Mecha Victoriana [my campaign setting and specialist d20 variant] is tooled to deal semi realistically with Victorian guns so I doubt it would be useful to you.

[unosarta]

Eyes of the Sniper [Tactical]
You gain abilities of stealth and movement that allow you kill your enemies most efficiently.
Prerequisites: Far Shot, Hide 9 ranks, Spot 9 ranks, Base Attack Bonus +6; Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms) or Weapon Focus with a type of Bow or ranged weapon
Benefits: You gain new maneuvers

Keen Eyes: As a standard action, you may study your enemy. You may make a spot check, with a DC equal to your enemy’s Hit Dice. If you make the check, you deal an extra 1d6 per four hit dice you possess on all ranged attacks made against that opponent for the rest of the encounter (minimum 1d6). You also may ignore any cover besides full cover that that target has, and you may ignore any damage reduction they possess.

Shot on the Run: As a full round action, you may move up to your base land speed and make a full attack action, with all attacks in the round made at a -2 penalty. You may make a Hide check while moving in this way even if you do not have cover, as if you had Hide-in-Plain-Sight ability, at no penalty.

Camouflage: As a move action, you may camouflage yourself. As long as you do not move more than 5 feet per round, you gain a +5 bonus to all hide checks while camouflaged. If you make a ranged attack against an enemy, they take a -5 penalty to the spot check in order to locate you. If you do move, you lose these benefits, and can regain them as a move action.

[Nuzak Firehand]

look nice :smallcool:

[GnomeWorks]

You want an honest critique of your work? It's overpowered, end of story.

2d12, x3 crit, 120 foot range? This is not balanced. Not in any way, shape, or form. I don't care if it takes two feats to do this reasonably, there is no good reason not to do so.

This makes the guy using a sword look like an idiot for even contemplating doing anything other than pick up a firearm.

And don't even bring up cost. Currency is not a viable balancing mechanic, not now, not ever.

[arguskos]

You want an honest critique of your work? It's overpowered, end of story.
Ok, let's look at the issue then. If it IS overpowered, I'll fix it.


2d12, x3 crit, 120 foot range? This is not balanced. Not in any way, shape, or form. I don't care if it takes two feats to do this reasonably, there is no good reason not to do so.
Let's compare to the nearest extant weapon, the composite longbow. The comp longbow does 1d8+strength, crit x3, range 110 ft. So, the base damage is the only relevant difference (10 ft doesn't matter).

2d12 has an average of 13 damage. It adds nothing to the dice, and has no method to do so.

1d8 is average of 4.5, but adds Strength, a variable number. Let's go with +3 for the moment. That's 7.5 average.

The bow is behind by 5.5. This is a big drop, that's true. The bow has better reload speed and a feat advantage however. At low levels (1-3), this is very relevant. Let us use a level 1 human fighter for the following comparison, yes?

We have Bob, the composite bow user with Str 16 and Dex 16. He has three feats and is an archer, so he takes Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Precise Shot. He now can attack twice at +2 for 1d8+3, x3 each (more if he's in PBS range). His average damage (assuming he hits with both) is 15. This is reasonable and expected.

If Bob was instead using a Bolt-Action Rifle, he would need Firearm Proficiency. He then has two feats. If he wants to use Rapid Shot, he also needs Rapid Reload, and needs Point Blank Shot. He can't actually get Rapid Shot at level 1. Let's say he takes Point Blank Shot and Rapid Reload. He has one attack a +4 that does 2d12, x3. That's an average of 13.

This is a viable trade. He trades higher average damage and more attacks for a higher potential damage with less attacks.


This makes the guy using a sword look like an idiot for even contemplating doing anything other than pick up a firearm.
I still point at chargers as the "you're entirely wrong on this one, buddy" proof. Someone else can do this math, I don't feel like it. Ranged weapons are still far behind chargers, and this more so.


And don't even bring up cost. Currency is not a viable balancing mechanic, not now, not ever.
Didn't plan to.

I do find that you are lacking a few things. Bows SCALE in damage, thanks to Strength and force multipliers. These guns don't. They have very swingy damage, bows are more average and reliable. This doesn't feel overpowered to me. Perhaps someone with a better grasp of the math than me can come along and use Bob to prove possible imbalance.

[Cieyrin]

You want an honest critique of your work? It's overpowered, end of story.

2d12, x3 crit, 120 foot range? This is not balanced. Not in any way, shape, or form. I don't care if it takes two feats to do this reasonably, there is no good reason not to do so.

This makes the guy using a sword look like an idiot for even contemplating doing anything other than pick up a firearm.

And don't even bring up cost. Currency is not a viable balancing mechanic, not now, not ever.

If we're going to compare it to melee, let's go with something that's fairly close to it, so a Greataxe user. Putting price aside, your typical 1st level Greataxe user is probably Half-Orc Barbarian with, let's say, 18 Strength and Power Attack. She has an attack bonus of +5 (+4 while Power Attacking) and does 1d12+6(+8 while Power Attacking). When raging and Power Attacking, she goes up to Str 22, attack bonus +6, 1d12+11.

Now, let's look at a Human Fighter with a Bolt Action Rifle, EWP(Firearms), Rapid Reload(Bolt Action Rifle) and Point Blank Shot, with a Dex of 16. He has an attack bonus of +4 (+5 w/in 30') and does 2d12(+1 w/in 30').

Now let's compare damage, shall we? At the top, our Barbarian is doing 12-23 damage a swing, averaging 17.5 damage. Our Fighter, assuming he's within 30', is doing 3-25, averaging 14 damage. Looks pretty well matched to me, not including actual optimization, like giving the Barbarian Whirling Frenzy and Sacred Lion Totem, which'll stomp the Fighter's damage down quite a bit. Plus, the Fighter still suffers from ranged weapon problems, like no Precise Shot for a -4 more often than not and no Rapid Shot for that extra hit while still suffering a flurry penalty. The only thing the Fighter has over the Barbarian in this bare bones example is the Fighter doesn't have to close with his target, which I wouldn't call broken by any definition.

[Mulletmanalive]

2d12, x3 crit, 120 foot range? This is not balanced. Not in any way, shape, or form. I don't care if it takes two feats to do this reasonably, there is no good reason not to do so.

This makes the guy using a sword look like an idiot for even contemplating doing anything other than pick up a firearm.

From personal experience, this is actually incorrect; it has proven repeatedly in my games, which include weapons with identical stats for only one feat, that Power Attack with a two hander will outstrip these weapons with no difficulty.

I took the stats from d20 modern for an Antimaterial Rifle and they don't actually get used all that often at all, despite being prefectly viable.

Balenced? Dunno. Overpowered, not so much...

Edit: Damn you Cieyrin! Cieyrin!!!!!read as Khaaaaan!

[Cieyrin]

Edit: Damn you Cieyrin! Cieyrin!!!!!read as Khaaaaan!

:smallbiggrin:

Could I sig the out of context edit for my personal amusement? :smallsmile:

[Mulletmanalive]

Of course you may. This makes two siggings...:smallbiggrin:

I find this worryingly fulfilling :smalltongue:

[arguskos]

Fancy Shootin' [Tactical]:
You have learned, at the cost of a large number of bottles, to shoot in some rather odd ways.
Prerequisites: BAB +4, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Decription: You gain the following abilities, all of which are Fear effects:

Buzzing Insects [Strike]: As a Standard action, you may fire a shot at your target that doesn't hit but goes so close to their ear as to hurt and disorient them. Make a touch attack against the target; if it hits, the target must make a Fortitude save or be Deafened for 5 rounds and Stunned for one round. Deaf targets are immune to this trick.

Dance Pardner [Strike]: As a Standard or Full action, you may fire several shots into the ground around the feet of a target within one range category. The target must make a Will save, DC 5 + BAB or move 5ft in a direction of your choice. If you are able to fire multiple shots via a special ability or high level, you gain a +2 bonus to the save DC per additional shot fired.

Riccochets [Strike]: As a Standard or Full action, you can fire bullets at targets in cover to keep them there. Targets in a 10ft square must make a Will save, DC 5 + BAB or be unable to move or stand up if prone for one round. If you can make multiple attacks via a feat, ability or high BAB, each additional shot increases the DC by +2.
I like it, but I dislike the Fear effects and the naming. :smalltongue:

I might fiddle about with it though.


Eyes of the Sniper [Tactical]
You gain abilities of stealth and movement that allow you kill your enemies most efficiently.
Prerequisites: Far Shot, Hide 9 ranks, Spot 9 ranks, Base Attack Bonus +6; Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms) or Weapon Focus with a type of Bow or ranged weapon
Benefits: You gain new maneuvers

Keen Eyes: As a standard action, you may study your enemy. You may make a spot check, with a DC equal to your enemy’s Hit Dice. If you make the check, you deal an extra 1d6 per four hit dice you possess on all ranged attacks made against that opponent for the rest of the encounter (minimum 1d6). You also may ignore any cover besides full cover that that target has, and you may ignore any damage reduction they possess.

Shot on the Run: As a full round action, you may move up to your base land speed and make a full attack action, with all attacks in the round made at a -2 penalty. You may make a Hide check while moving in this way even if you do not have cover, as if you had Hide-in-Plain-Sight ability, at no penalty.

Camouflage: As a move action, you may camouflage yourself. As long as you do not move more than 5 feet per round, you gain a +5 bonus to all hide checks while camouflaged. If you make a ranged attack against an enemy, they take a -5 penalty to the spot check in order to locate you. If you do move, you lose these benefits, and can regain them as a move action.
That's preeeeetty good. Shot on the Run is very powerful. I like it too though. I'll add these feats to the first post.

Also, I need to get back to Z-R work and stop working on my RL game for a little while. :smallsigh: I'll get right on that.