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View Full Version : Abjurant Champion and Abjuration spells rant



Chuckthedwarf
2011-02-18, 12:44 AM
Can anyone tell me if there are any lower level Abjuration spells that grant AC aside from Shield?

Because I can't find any.

"Any time you cast an abjuration spell that grants you bonus to ARMOR or shield AC you can add your Abjurant Champion levels"

But... Mage Armor is a Conjuration spell =o

By all means, it's a great class feature, it just grinds my gears the way it's described.

Throughout PHB, PHB2, Complete Arcane, Complete Mage and Spell Compendium I found exactly 2 spells that would be affected by this class feature.

Shield, from PHB, a level 1 spell.
Repelling Shield, from Complete Mage, a level 3 spell and basically a slightly improved version of Shield. Grants the same AC, pushes back enemies after they attack you.

That's it. Any other Abjuration spells either don't grant any kind of AC or grant Deflection bonus which isn't affected by this feature.

There are literally no Abjuration spells that provide armor bonus to AC.

Sorry for the rant...

arguskos
2011-02-18, 12:47 AM
Luminous Armor, from the Book of Exalted Deeds, is the other big one that crops up a lot of the time.

KillianHawkeye
2011-02-18, 12:55 AM
You need to realize that this ability is not what makes Abjurant Champion so great. It's a 5 level class that grants full spellcasting, full BAB, is really easy to get into, and you gain the ability to automatically Extend and Quicken all your abjuration spells. After all that, it's not a big deal that their "signature ability" doesn't really work. Don't be greedy. :smallwink:

Elric VIII
2011-02-18, 12:56 AM
We usually allow Mage armor to work with it since that spell is specifically mentioned as a staple of the Abj Champ class. It's not wholly unreasonable to ask your DM for this. You can also use the spell research rules to create an Abjuration version of Mage Armor.

Chuckthedwarf
2011-02-18, 01:12 AM
You need to realize that this ability is not what makes Abjurant Champion so great. It's a 5 level class that grants full spellcasting, full BAB, is really easy to get into, and you gain the ability to automatically Extend and Quicken all your abjuration spells. After all that, it's not a big deal that their "signature ability" doesn't really work. Don't be greedy. :smallwink:

Oh, trust me, I don't claim that Abjurant Champion doesn't get enough goodies - it does, very much so.

However, simply being a mechanically great class doesn't make it immune to other screw ups =/

Keld Denar
2011-02-18, 01:12 AM
Ectoplasmic Armor is an Abjuration spell that gives an Armor bonus to AC, except it only works against incorp touches. Still, +13 AC vs Dread Wraiths from a 1st level slot that lasts HOURS per level isn't too shabby, IMO.

Cerlis
2011-02-18, 01:32 AM
Ectoplasmic Armor is an Abjuration spell that gives an Armor bonus to AC, except it only works against incorp touches. Still, +13 AC vs Dread Wraiths from a 1st level slot that lasts HOURS per level isn't too shabby, IMO.

i hope that name is just fluff, since many fantasys assume ghosts are made of ectoplasm.

Cus a spell that SUMMONS ectoplasm to protect being abjuration
and a Spell that CREATES a shield of force to protect being conjuration.


and you're right i thought mage armor was abjuration. that really sucks.

I would point out though, if you are not aching for spell slots, isnt there a greater version of Mage armor and Shield? maybe just Mage Armor

sigh.

RTGoodman
2011-02-18, 01:36 AM
Cus a spell that SUMMONS ectoplasm to protect being abjuration
and a Spell that CREATES a shield of force to protect being conjuration.

Don't try to make sense of the classification of 3.5 spells into schools. That way lies madness.


I would point out though, if you are not aching for spell slots, isnt there a greater version of Mage armor and Shield? maybe just Mage Armor

I think greater mage armor is in the Spell Compendium. But yeah, luminous armor and I think greater luminous armor are in BoED and ARE abjuration.

herrhauptmann
2011-02-18, 01:59 AM
Something I was wondering, if an Abjurant champion casts his abjuration on someone else, does that someone get the higher AC/Shield rating due to his AC levels?

Coidzor
2011-02-18, 02:10 AM
Something I was wondering, if an Abjurant champion casts his abjuration on someone else, does that someone get the higher AC/Shield rating due to his AC levels?

If it's a non personal spell and they're not already a familiar/creature that they're sharing spells with, I believe so.

But I don't know of any non-personal spells that would qualify for that other than maybe Ectoplasmic Armor which has the delightful factor of only working against incorporeal (touch only?) attacks.

JaronK
2011-02-18, 03:01 AM
Greater Luminous Armor is a wonderful spell anyway (if stealth isn't a concern) so it's not a huge issue.

JaronK

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-02-18, 03:18 AM
Protection from Evil grants a Deflection bonus to AC which would get boosted.

Luminous Armor and the Greater version are probably the absolute best spells to use with Abjurant Champion. Get the AC bonus of +5 Full Plate and a +5 Tower Shield, but no armor check penalty, encumbrance, or arcane spell failure.

You can take Arcane Disciple for the Retribution domain to get Shield of Faith, but only usable 1/day. You can get Shield of Faith as a general spell via Dwarven Ancestry, a bloodline feat from Dragon 338, though you have to be a Dwarf Sorcerer to qualify for it.

Thurbane
2011-02-18, 03:31 AM
Throw in a level of Paragnostic Apostle - take the Mind Over Matter feature, and any spell you cast that grants an armor bonus increases by 2.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-02-18, 03:39 AM
Throw in a level of Paragnostic Apostle - take the Mind Over Matter feature, and any spell you cast that grants an armor bonus increases by 2.

Good find, though it only applies to armor and not all AC bonuses. For a Gish build without fractional BAB you may as well get two levels and pick up Spatial Awareness, to get +10 ft. faster fly speed when gained via spells, or so everyone you cast Haste on gets +10 ft. to every mode of movement above what the spell grants.

Rixx
2011-02-18, 03:45 AM
Full spellcasting, full BAB, easy entry, and a "signature ability" that barely works?

Could this class be... untested and poorly thought out!?

Thurbane
2011-02-18, 03:47 AM
Good find, though it only applies to armor and not all AC bonuses. For a Gish build without fractional BAB you may as well get two levels and pick up Spatial Awareness, to get +10 ft. faster fly speed when gained via spells, or so everyone you cast Haste on gets +10 ft. to every mode of movement above what the spell grants.
I love Spatial Awareness for an Archivist. Longstrider becomes +20 ft movement. :smallsmile:

Flawless
2011-02-18, 06:49 AM
Protection from Evil grants a Deflection bonus to AC which would get boosted.

Not really, as it's a Deflection bonus. Abjurant Champion only boosts Armor and shield bonuses.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-18, 11:08 AM
Speaking of which, are there *any* abjuration spells that grant shield or armor bonuses other than Luminous Armor, Greater Luminous Armor, Shield, and Repelling Shield?

Keld Denar
2011-02-18, 11:21 AM
As I mentioned...Ectoplasmic Armor. Its an abjurant armor bonus, but it only works against incorp touches.

Lord Vukodlak
2011-02-18, 11:34 AM
Does it really matter that much? being able to cast shield as a swift action and having it grant a +9 bonus to your AC is awesome all by its self.

Coidzor
2011-02-18, 11:35 AM
Well, it is the theme of the Abjurant Champion, gishing by using spells instead of armor for AC.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-18, 11:44 AM
Does it really matter that much? being able to cast shield as a swift action and having it grant a +9 bonus to your AC is awesome all by its self.

Certainly, but it seems weird to me that its main class ability only seems to work with 5 spells, one of which only works against incorporeal things.

Plus I spent a while trying to find an Abjuration spell that added to your armor or shield instead of creating a new one, because I like the idea of a dwarf Runesmith/ AbjChamp using Mountain Plate and Deflective Armor and then further adding to them with spells, to make himself basically an angry wall that does magic.

Elric VIII
2011-02-18, 12:17 PM
Certainly, but it seems weird to me that its main class ability only seems to work with 5 spells, one of which only works against incorporeal things.

Plus I spent a while trying to find an Abjuration spell that added to your armor or shield instead of creating a new one, because I like the idea of a dwarf Runesmith/ AbjChamp using Mountain Plate and Deflective Armor and then further adding to them with spells, to make himself basically an angry wall that does magic.

Wouldn't the armor/shield bonuses not stack with the actual armor and shield anyway?

SurlySeraph
2011-02-18, 12:26 PM
Yes, which is why I hoped there were abjuration spells that added to your existing armor or shield bonuses out there, like Magic Vestment but Abjuration and maybe with other interesting effects. As far as I can ascertain, there aren't.

The Cat Goddess
2011-02-18, 12:56 PM
I recall that there's a note on the WotC site saying that the Abjurant Champion's ability affects Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor (and the group version too).

hangedman1984
2011-02-18, 01:10 PM
Yes, which is why I hoped there were abjuration spells that added to your existing armor or shield bonuses out there, like Magic Vestment but Abjuration and maybe with other interesting effects. As far as I can ascertain, there aren't.

You could always research one

Douglas
2011-02-18, 01:22 PM
I recall that there's a note on the WotC site saying that the Abjurant Champion's ability affects Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor (and the group version too).
Actually, I believe the errata for Complete Mage simply removed the reference to Mage Armor completely.

Jornophelanthas
2011-02-18, 01:29 PM
Actually, I believe the errata for Complete Mage simply removed the reference to Mage Armor completely.

This is correct. The errata state that Mage Armor is not an Abjuration spell, and does not benefit from Abjurant Champion abilities. However, they also state that Abjurant Champions typically use Mage Armor anyway.

Grelna the Blue
2011-02-18, 01:52 PM
Speaking of which, are there *any* abjuration spells that grant shield or armor bonuses other than Luminous Armor, Greater Luminous Armor, Shield, and Repelling Shield?

Aside from the aforementioned Ectoplasmic Armor, there is also the spell Deflect, in PH2. Despite its name, which would seem to imply that it grants a deflection bonus (as the spell Lesser Deflect actually does), the wording for Deflect states that
"you gain a shield bonus to AC equal to 1/2 your caster level (round down) against the next attack made against you before the end of your next turn."

Too bad it's such a crappy spell. 2nd level, and all it gives you is AC vs. a single attack in the next round? Even as an immediate action spell, I'd guess that only Abjurant Champions ever bother taking it.

faceroll
2011-02-18, 02:33 PM
Full spellcasting, full BAB, easy entry, and a "signature ability" that barely works?

Could this class be... untested and poorly thought out!?

I think it's an exceptionally well thought out class. The fact that it's signature ability can't be munchkined makes me like it even more. Despite seeming powerful at first blush, abjuration isn't that strong of a school, and being a gish, you're likely to be focusing on buffs, anyway. Getting to quicken your buffs is nice, but then, not all your buffs, like transmutation, but a handful of them from abjuration.

Urpriest
2011-02-18, 03:10 PM
I think it's an exceptionally well thought out class. The fact that it's signature ability can't be munchkined makes me like it even more. Despite seeming powerful at first blush, abjuration isn't that strong of a school, and being a gish, you're likely to be focusing on buffs, anyway. Getting to quicken your buffs is nice, but then, not all your buffs, like transmutation, but a handful of them from abjuration.

Except, as demonstrated in the sample character, the class is supposed to increase the armor bonus gained from Mage Armor. I grant that the rest of the class is decently well thought out, but it's abundantly clear that they simply didn't do their research on this point.

faceroll
2011-02-18, 03:21 PM
Except, as demonstrated in the sample character, the class is supposed to increase the armor bonus gained from Mage Armor. I grant that the rest of the class is decently well thought out, but it's abundantly clear that they simply didn't do their research on this point.

Sample characters almost always break a rule or two. They mean nothing, imo.

Stallion
2011-02-18, 05:04 PM
Except, as demonstrated in the sample character, the class is supposed to increase the armor bonus gained from Mage Armor. I grant that the rest of the class is decently well thought out, but it's abundantly clear that they simply didn't do their research on this point.

I'd rather combo it with master specialist and start handing out antimagic fields to beatsticks as a free action.

faceroll
2011-02-18, 05:26 PM
I'd rather combo it with master specialist and start handing out antimagic fields to beatsticks as a free action.

AMF is centered on yourself. Can't give it to another character.

*Reads MS for abjurers*
Ohhhh, I see. Interesting debuff. Have to get pretty close to use it, though. Maybe with a reach spell.

Thurbane
2011-02-18, 05:49 PM
So, is there a definitive list of spells that you can use Abjurant Armor with kicking around anywhere?

Coidzor
2011-02-18, 05:59 PM
^: Not definitive but we've probably covered most of them here in thread.


Sample characters almost always break a rule or two. They mean nothing, imo.

Except for the theme of the class being that they're better at making magical armor so they don't have to wear regular armor and I doubt they even were thinking about luminous armor from BOED what with it causing damage to the spellcaster.

herrhauptmann
2011-02-18, 06:37 PM
So, is there a definitive list of spells that you can use Abjurant Armor with kicking around anywhere?

OUtside of the 5 listed here, and any spells that the DM lets you research? No, there's no other spells that get affected by Abjurant Armor. Annoying huh?

Grelna the Blue
2011-02-18, 06:50 PM
OUtside of the 5 listed here, and any spells that the DM lets you research? No, there's no other spells that get affected by Abjurant Armor. Annoying huh?

As stated previously (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10401011&postcount=29) in this thread, there are at least 6, not 5. :smallcool:

Tvtyrant
2011-02-18, 06:52 PM
...If your going for Abjuration wouldn't Initiate of the 7 Fold Veil work better? Not dissing Abjurant Champion but...

FMArthur
2011-02-18, 07:50 PM
...If your going for Abjuration wouldn't Initiate of the 7 Fold Veil work better? Not dissing Abjurant Champion but...

Abjurant Champion is more than just being an a-hole to would-be attackers. It's about support, fighting in melee, and in general pretending to be a Cleric without giving up arcane power.

SurlySeraph
2011-02-18, 07:55 PM
Aside from the aforementioned Ectoplasmic Armor, there is also the spell Deflect, in PH2. Despite its name, which would seem to imply that it grants a deflection bonus (as the spell Lesser Deflect actually does), the wording for Deflect states that

Too bad it's such a crappy spell. 2nd level, and all it gives you is AC vs. a single attack in the next round? Even as an immediate action spell, I'd guess that only Abjurant Champions ever bother taking it.

It'd be decent against ToB characters since you only need to avoid the one strike per round. Combined with Shield Ward, it'd be very nice for avoiding ray spells. Worth a 2nd-level slot? Eh, maybe. Sometimes. Worth learning, anyway.
Also, I just noticed that Shield Ward gives you your shield bonus to touch AC and against combat maneuvers, even when you're not getting your shield bonus from an actual shield. BRB, adding Shield Specialization and Shield Ward to every Abjurant Champion build I've ever made.

EDIT:

AMF is centered on yourself. Can't give it to another character.

*Reads MS for abjurers*
Ohhhh, I see. Interesting debuff. Have to get pretty close to use it, though. Maybe with a reach spell.

On a similar note: Ordained Champion's Channel Spell ability. "Even if the spell normally affects an area or is a ray, it still affects only the target in this case." Antimagic Field. GG.

JaronK
2011-02-18, 07:59 PM
Wings of Cover of course blows that away with its "one attack of any type fails utterly." But it's Sorcerer only.

JaronK

SurlySeraph
2011-02-18, 08:19 PM
Of course. But Wings of Cover is like adding Wizard levels, or getting a Belt of Battle, or being a Dragonwrought Kobold; it makes things too easy.

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-02-19, 08:27 PM
As stated previously (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10401011&postcount=29) in this thread, there are at least 6, not 5. :smallcool:

There's also Nezram's Sapphire Screen of Shielding (Lost Empires of Faerun), Armor of Darkness (Darkness 4, SpC), and Temporal Shield (Legend of the Twins)
So, make that 9, actually.

Greenish
2011-02-19, 08:45 PM
Except for the theme of the class being that they're better at making magical armor so they don't have to wear regular armorI find it amusing that the sample Abjurant Champion is pictured as wearing armour and a shield. :smallamused:

Eldariel
2011-02-19, 09:44 PM
I'd rather combo it with master specialist and start handing out antimagic fields to beatsticks as a free action.

You don't need, or want, Abjurant Champion for that. It only quickens up to 3rd level spells. Honestly, that ability is mediocre. Master Specialist/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, on the other hand, is quite excellent. Especially with some Archmage in the deal.

Also, this was stated to be an editing error by WoTC; the designer thought Mage Armor was Abjuration (since that would be sorta logical, and at the very least consistent with Shield being an Abjuration) and wrote the class with this in mind. Of course, the class is still plenty strong without it and Greater Luminous Armor is superb, as stated.


It's a great Gish-class and specifically what Gishes (well, specifically the arcane Fighter/Wizard combination) needed to be up there with full casters. Well, true Gishes at any rate; silly Duskblades don't really care. But the class has some situational, and some straight silly abilities. Abjurant Armor is plagued by the Mage Armor-issues with GLA isn't available. Swift Abjuration is just very meh overall. Arcane Boost is like a swift action limited version of Arcane Strike with the boon that it works on ranged attacks (so Arcane Archers care). And Martial Arcanist is just very rarely useful outside some partial/fast casting (Suel Arcanamach, SotAO Mystic Ranger, etc.) classes needing their CL buffed.


*Reads MS for abjurers*
Ohhhh, I see. Interesting debuff. Have to get pretty close to use it, though. Maybe with a reach spell.

The money is Archmage and Arcane Reach; 60' away as a ranged touch attack (no save obv). Puts Anti-Magic Ray to shame. Tho only 3 times per day (the fineprint on MS lvl 10 ability). Still, real nice. Well, potentially, at any rate; little-known fact but AMF isn't strictly Personal.

herrhauptmann
2011-02-19, 10:02 PM
There's also Nezram's Sapphire Screen of Shielding (Lost Empires of Faerun), Armor of Darkness (Darkness 4, SpC), and Temporal Shield (Legend of the Twins)
So, make that 9, actually.

Armor of darkness grants a deflection bonus. Abjurant armor only works for armor or shield bonuses. Not deflection, dodge, sacred, natural, profane, etc bonuses.
Nezram WOULD work, good catch. But it is 5th level, and the biggest differences are that it grants DR 10/magic, and only lasts 1 round per level, rather than 1 minute per level.
Temporal Shield: I don't have that book, but you're batting 500 so far.
Are the dragonlance books official like Faerun/Eberron, or are they printed using the d20 license like Swashbuckling adventures, or swords & sorcery? If the former, it's good to know, and would be great if you told us specifically what it did.

So what've we got?
1-Shield--PHB
2-Luminous Armor--BoED (any Good prepared caster)
3-G. Luminous--BoED (any Good prepared caster)
4-Ectoplasmic armor--SC
5-Deflect--PHB2--Grants a different bonus from Lesser Deflect...
6-Lesser Deflect--PHB2 Grants a deflection bonus
7-Nezram's Saphire Screen of shielding-- Lost Empires of Faerun
8-Repelling Shield-- CM
9-Temporal Shield??--Legend of the Twins Can someone doublecheck and ensure this spell grants a Shield or Armor bonus to AC? Lasts 1 round per CL

Spells not improved by Abjurant Champion:
Armor of Darkness- Deflection bonus
Shield of Faith- No, Deflection bonus
Mage Armor (greater)- Conjuration spell
Protection from Evil/Good/Law/Chaos- No, deflection
Lesser Deflection- No, deflection bonus So weird that it grants a deflection bonus, but the regular version grants a shield bonus. Technically you could cast both spells and get the benefit of each (though only one benefits from Abjurant Armor)

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-02-19, 10:46 PM
Other than the Campaign Setting, no Dragonlance books were first party. However, much like Dragon and Dungeon magazines, all Dragonlance books are official sources.

Temporal Shield is also 2nd level, which is useful!

EDIT: Bah, I forgot that Armor of Darkness was updated to be deflection. This is what I get for checking all of those FR books in the process.

Barlen
2011-02-19, 11:09 PM
Regarding the mage armor issue:

Find one well stocked magical library, spend 1000g, spend 1 week researching and make a spellcraft roll of 11 (10+spell level). Create the same exact spell except for the school and call it <character's name>'s magical Armor.

Alternatively if there is another party wizard who isn't multi-classed and hasn't banned abjuration or conjuration pay them to do it for you. This assumes they are maxing spellcraft, in case you didn't. Then learn the spell from them.

Requires DM permission of course.

Coidzor
2011-02-19, 11:13 PM
Also, I just noticed that Shield Ward gives you your shield bonus to touch AC and against combat maneuvers, even when you're not getting your shield bonus from an actual shield. BRB, adding Shield Specialization and Shield Ward to every Abjurant Champion build I've ever made.

What feats did you find yourself dropping to be able to do that though? As far as I can ever tell, Gishes are quite feat-starved as it is.


I find it amusing that the sample Abjurant Champion is pictured as wearing armour and a shield. :smallamused:

Indeed.

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-02-20, 12:24 AM
I find it amusing that the sample Abjurant Champion is pictured as wearing armour and a shield. :smallamused:



Indeed.

To be fair, he may doing it for the properties. Although, considering how the sample character is more fighter than sorcerer, it's hard to tell.:smallamused:

Daftendirekt
2011-02-20, 12:33 AM
Armor of darkness grants a deflection bonus. Abjurant armor only works for armor or shield bonuses. Not deflection, dodge, sacred, natural, profane, etc bonuses.
Nezram WOULD work, good catch. But it is 5th level, and the biggest differences are that it grants DR 10/magic, and only lasts 1 round per level, rather than 1 minute per level.
Temporal Shield: I don't have that book, but you're batting 500 so far.
Are the dragonlance books official like Faerun/Eberron, or are they printed using the d20 license like Swashbuckling adventures, or swords & sorcery? If the former, it's good to know, and would be great if you told us specifically what it did.

So what've we got?
1-Shield
2-Luminous Armor
3-G. Luminous
4-Ectoplasmic armor
5-Deflect
6-Lesser Deflect
7-Nezram's Saphire Screen of shielding

You or somebody should get book and page locations for all those, and get it stickied somewhere. I've a feeling this would be useful to a lot of people.

Coidzor
2011-02-20, 01:09 AM
To be fair, he may doing it for the properties. Although, considering how the sample character is more fighter than sorcerer, it's hard to tell.:smallamused:

And either military or town watch, iirc.

herrhauptmann
2011-02-20, 02:46 AM
You or somebody should get book and page locations for all those, and get it stickied somewhere. I've a feeling this would be useful to a lot of people.
Less useful than you'd think honestly. The important ones are (Greater) Luminous armor for wizard gishes, and shield.
Luminous armor is an 'exalted' spell. You glow, creatures like orcs/drow take penalties, and people take additional penalties for trying to hit you in melee.
Deflect only lasts a round or until discharged. So good if you know you're about to take an AOO charging past the power attacking warhulk. Otherwise...
Nezram lasts a round per level,
Ectoplasmic armor is ok, but only affects incorporeal touch attacks.

Not sure how long you've been posting/lurking, but Personman is the one you want for lists of stuff.

Remember, it's not just a spell that grants a bonus to AC, it's a spell that grants an ARMOR or SHIELD bonus to AC.

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-02-20, 03:28 AM
You or somebody should get book and page locations for all those, and get it stickied somewhere. I've a feeling this would be useful to a lot of people.

Hell, I have free time!
Shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shield.htm)
(Greater) Luminous Armor - Book of Exalted Deeds, Page 102 (102)
Ectoplasmic Armor - Spell Compendium, Page 77
Deflect - Player's Handbook 2, Page 109 (Note that Deflect, Lesser is a deflection bonus)
Temporal Shield - Dragonlance: Legends of the Twins, Page 26 (NOTE: This gives you +6 Shield bonus, which is a step up from Shield)
Nezram's Saphire Screen of shielding - Lost Empires of Faerun, Page 33

herrhauptmann
2011-02-20, 12:42 PM
How long does temporal shield last?

MeeposFire
2011-02-20, 09:46 PM
How long does temporal shield last?

Temporally?:smallwink:

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-02-20, 11:55 PM
How long does temporal shield last?

Sadly, only one round per caster level.

Thurbane
2011-02-21, 01:13 AM
I thought there was another variant of the Shield spell somewhere - I just checked the SC, and not there. Maybe CM or DM? I'm sure it exists...it acts like a normal Shield and has an additional effect...

herrhauptmann
2011-02-21, 03:38 AM
Any idea what the theme of the additional effect is? Could help us narrow it down.
However, with all of these variant shield spells lasting so short of a time compared to the PHB Shield, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that regular Shield is still the best. (Lowest level, longest duration)

Thurbane
2011-02-21, 07:06 AM
Any idea what the theme of the additional effect is? Could help us narrow it down.
However, with all of these variant shield spells lasting so short of a time compared to the PHB Shield, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that regular Shield is still the best. (Lowest level, longest duration)
I found it - repelling Shield (CM)...but I see it's already on your list above. :smallredface:

RagnaroksChosen
2011-02-21, 09:22 AM
I don't know if its possible but is there a way to switch a spells school through feats or what not?


Also are there any divine abjurations that we could get on an arcane list?

Tyndmyr
2011-02-21, 09:26 AM
I don't know if its possible but is there a way to switch a spells school through feats or what not?

To abjuration? Not that I can recall.

However, there is research. Time/money intensive, but hey.

Coidzor
2011-02-21, 09:30 AM
To abjuration? Not that I can recall.

However, there is research. Time/money intensive, but hey.

And about as knee-jerk-denied by DMs as custom items and adapting PrCs. :/

Tyndmyr
2011-02-21, 09:32 AM
And about as knee-jerk-denied by DMs as custom items and adapting PrCs. :/

In general, yes. The vast majority of times I've seen requests for all these things, they've been obviously broken.

A request as reasonable as changing the school of Mage Armor would be most welcome. The only time I could see an eyebrow raised is if they had banned it's normal school.

Coidzor
2011-02-21, 10:58 AM
In general, yes. The vast majority of times I've seen requests for all these things, they've been obviously broken.

Really? :smallconfused: Because the vast majority of times I've run into wanting to adapt PrCs it's so that a PrC is accessible at all in the setting due to deities.

true_shinken
2011-02-21, 11:14 AM
Really? :smallconfused: Because the vast majority of times I've run into wanting to adapt PrCs it's so that a PrC is accessible at all in the setting due to deities.

The vast majority os PrC adapting I've seen requested here is something along the lines 'all the powers of an Ur-Priest, none of the bad implications the fluff has on you'.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-21, 11:31 AM
Really? :smallconfused: Because the vast majority of times I've run into wanting to adapt PrCs it's so that a PrC is accessible at all in the setting due to deities.

I've never actually had that request. It seems a quite legitimate one, and one I'd almost certainly grant immediately, translating the diety to the closest equivalent.

I have however had very persistant requests for researching a spell(from a third party splatbook) that was 2nd level arcane, was an untyped AOE spell that caused everyone in a 15 or 20 ft(I forget which) radius to immediately cease taking actions due to "choking and coughing" for the spell duration of rnds/level +1d4 rnds. They did get a save when they left the spell radius though. Clearly, that made it balanced. *rolls eyes*

The research as recommended in the rules is pretty fair, and I like seeing people come up with creative variants on existing spells. The problem is, as usual, munchkins give it a bad name, so people get paranoid.

Hazzardevil
2011-04-02, 03:24 PM
And either military or town watch, iirc.

I find it odd that if it serves the town watch, then chances are they are a load of skinflints who will cut every corner for cost they can, therefore they wouldn't buy armour for a caster who can make armor for himself and it's better than a full plate.

Anyway, on adapting prestige classes, I have no problem you making RKW for another god. I have a problem when someone is trying to twist fluff so they can be a Red Wizard/Initiate of the 7/Daggerspell/half a dozen other arcane prestige classes that give something awesome at 1st level.

Sinfonian
2011-04-02, 03:43 PM
In general, yes. The vast majority of times I've seen requests for all these things, they've been obviously broken.

A request as reasonable as changing the school of Mage Armor would be most welcome. The only time I could see an eyebrow raised is if they had banned it's normal school.
If as a DM, someone comes to you with this request, wanting Mage Armor as an Abjuration spell because they had banned Conjuration, you grant it immediately without a single eyebrow twitch. Then you dance for joy, because doing your job just got quite a bit easier.

herrhauptmann
2011-04-02, 04:32 PM
If as a DM, someone comes to you with this request, wanting Mage Armor as an Abjuration spell because they had banned Conjuration, you grant it immediately without a single eyebrow twitch. Then you dance for joy, because doing your job just got quite a bit easier.

Most people who want that though, are people playing abjurant champions.
So you've just granted a quickened 1st level spell that lasts 2 hours per level, for free. Should at least require their character to actually research it.

It's funny you bumped this thread, I was thinking of doing the same thing so it'd be easier to access the list of abjuration spells that benefit from the abj champ. Perhaps even place them in a nice little chart.

Sinfonian
2011-04-02, 04:58 PM
Most people who want that though, are people playing abjurant champions.
So you've just granted a quickened 1st level spell that lasts 2 hours per level, for free. Should at least require their character to actually research it.
Given that the request in question was for DM approval to research such a spell, I thought that was implied. I should have been more clear. Either way, Conjuration has spells that, while fun and iconic, cause DMs quite a bit more work. Not necessarily a bad thing, but anything that makes the DM's job easier is to be welcomed.

herrhauptmann
2011-04-02, 05:20 PM
Given that the request in question was for DM approval to research such a spell, I thought that was implied. I should have been more clear. Either way, Conjuration has spells that, while fun and iconic, cause DMs quite a bit more work. Not necessarily a bad thing, but anything that makes the DM's job easier is to be welcomed.

I usually hear/read that question with the word research included.
When it's not included, I tend to think someone wants that as a starting spell, or one of their free level up spells.
Vagueness plus a desire for overly specific things for the win!

Rixx
2011-04-02, 06:00 PM
This thread is from like.. February.

herrhauptmann
2011-04-02, 06:25 PM
Yeah? It's 3 months to count as a necro, right?
Though it does need to get shifted to the 3.5 forum.


In the interest of adding to it, what spells can anyone think of that would actually be useful for an Abjurant Champion or other gish?
Last time I checked a guidebook, it looks like the author just grabbed his favorite spells out of a wizard handbook. Creating a weaker wizard who just swung a sword around once in a while.


Fist of stone (CArc/SC)
Shield,
Mage armor (altered to be Abjuration)
Ectoplasmic armor (SC)
Luminous Armor (BoED)
Greater Luminous Armor (BoED)
Dispel magic (reaving dispel, greater dispel)

stainboy
2011-04-02, 06:33 PM
I would contend that if researching Abjuration Mage Armor is possible in your world, and the PC is not the first ever abjurant champion, then some other abjurant champion already did this and you can just learn it from him.

ZombyWoof
2011-04-02, 06:41 PM
More notes on AMF from AbjurChamp and MS:

Extraordinary Spell Aim specifically states that you exclude one creature from the spell's effect. That means you pick one creature, and for the duration of the spell it does not effect them. It doesn't make a 5' hole.

So yeah, ESA a quickened RTA AMF on your favorite enemy. Suddenly he's a fighter without magic items or buffs, and *you're* still a wizard.

Tyndmyr
2011-04-02, 09:09 PM
If as a DM, someone comes to you with this request, wanting Mage Armor as an Abjuration spell because they had banned Conjuration, you grant it immediately without a single eyebrow twitch. Then you dance for joy, because doing your job just got quite a bit easier.

Honestly, my eyebrow would probably twitch because they chose to ban conjuration...but hey, whatever floats their boat.

Realistically, I wish all homebrew requests were so reasonable. Actual requests include "hey, this is a second level spell I found in a splatbook, that has no typing, is an AOE spell, has a long range, has no save, and makes everyone affected unable to take any actions at all for CL+1d4 rounds".

Honestly, abjurant champions suffer more from a lack of appropriate abjuration spells than they do from lack of spell slots, assuming a decent build at all. So, I'd be fairly flexible with allowing them access to abjuration buff research. Sure, in some cases, it might climb a level if it's a transfer from another school...but I'd almost certainly still allow it. May as well make the class abilities actually useful.


I would contend that if researching Abjuration Mage Armor is possible in your world, and the PC is not the first ever abjurant champion, then some other abjurant champion already did this and you can just learn it from him.

Most likely. Given the fluff in the class, this is an extremely good case for the player.

navar100
2011-04-02, 09:25 PM
I've never actually had that request. It seems a quite legitimate one, and one I'd almost certainly grant immediately, translating the diety to the closest equivalent.

I have however had very persistant requests for researching a spell(from a third party splatbook) that was 2nd level arcane, was an untyped AOE spell that caused everyone in a 15 or 20 ft(I forget which) radius to immediately cease taking actions due to "choking and coughing" for the spell duration of rnds/level +1d4 rnds. They did get a save when they left the spell radius though. Clearly, that made it balanced. *rolls eyes*

The research as recommended in the rules is pretty fair, and I like seeing people come up with creative variants on existing spells. The problem is, as usual, munchkins give it a bad name, so people get paranoid.

Perhaps it's just my personal play experience, but in 2E spell research was rather common. I did it. Various playing groups I was with had someone do it. Players talked about them on the internet. (Yes, the internet did exist back then. :smallsmile: ) In 3E, I never researched a spell, play groups I was in no one did it. They were not discussed on the interner.

I surmise this is because of the plethora of spells available in 3E. 2E had its share of non-PHB spells - Complete Wizard, Tome of Magic, Player's Options, but they weren't that many and the books were perhaps not as publicly known, except perhaps Complete Wizard. In 3E, there are spells everywhere. Every splat book has new spells. Spell Compendium combined those that existed at the time into one book, but there are still published spells not in there. Because there are so many, the need to research a new one just isn't there.

Tyndmyr
2011-04-02, 09:37 PM
Perhaps it's just my personal play experience, but in 2E spell research was rather common. I did it. Various playing groups I was with had someone do it. Players talked about them on the internet. (Yes, the internet did exist back then. :smallsmile: ) In 3E, I never researched a spell, play groups I was in no one did it. They were not discussed on the interner.

I surmise this is because of the plethora of spells available in 3E. 2E had its share of non-PHB spells - Complete Wizard, Tome of Magic, Player's Options, but they weren't that many and the books were perhaps not as publicly known, except perhaps Complete Wizard. In 3E, there are spells everywhere. Every splat book has new spells. Spell Compendium combined those that existed at the time into one book, but there are still published spells not in there. Because there are so many, the need to research a new one just isn't there.

Generally true. Usually when a player requests a spell that does X, I can just point them to a convenient, already existing option. Nice, fast, no work. That said, there's a sufficient # of spells in 3.5 that even I don't have them all memorized. It's...a lot.

Pretty much the only time I've ever used the research option is to research an existing spell from a book that for campaign reasons wasn't actually available at the time I wanted it(and was in addition to my automatic level up spells). Even that...not a ton.

Coidzor
2011-04-03, 06:30 PM
Most people who want that though, are people playing abjurant champions.

If they're playing Abjurant Champions, the chances of them breaking your campaign just got cut in half at least, thus making one's job easier.:smallbiggrin: