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Lord_Gareth
2011-02-18, 11:09 AM
So, I've a mind to make a campaign setting where bows, crossbows, and their ilk have been replaced by actual, legitimate firearms (with gunpowder and everything). I'm seeking suggestions both on the damage the firearms should do (I'm thinking, say, Civil War-era firearms with repeating rifles and revolvers) and on what supporting rules should be implemented to actually make them worth using (unlike, say, archery in 3.5). Suggestions?

EdroGrimshell
2011-02-18, 11:30 AM
Have a look at the Iron Kingdoms setting, they have an entire range of guns and even a base class built around them (the gun mage). Should be easy to find.

Necro_EX
2011-02-18, 11:36 AM
Dragon Magazine had an article about firearms in 3.5...they were renaissance age, though. That and the blunderbuss was just plain awful. I don't remember which issue it was, though. :/

Also, I believe there's a Pathfinder supplement that had renaissance age guns in it. Those ones were nifty because they had exploding damage dice. :D

Human Paragon 3
2011-02-18, 11:59 AM
I've been giving this a lot of thought lately. I think the key is that firearms need to be a viable strategy that's as good as bow and arrow or melee fighting. This is difficult to pull off because of reloading, hence the weapons themselves need a boost over arrows which can have huge full attacks, sometimes firing off as many as a dozen arrows at high level through shenanigans. Here are my guns:


Rifle/Musket
Damage: 3d8. Range: 130 ft. Crit x3. Capacity: 1 Shot
Reload: Standard action (Move action with rapid reload feat)

Widdowmaker Handgun
Damage: 2d6 Range: 75 ft. Crit x3. Capacity: 4 Shots
Reload: Full round action to refill all four, Standard action to load one bullet (Standard/Move with rapid reload feat)

6-Shot Haymaker
Damage: d10 Range: 100 ft. Crit x3. Capacity: 6 Shots
Reload: Full round action to refill all six, Standard action to load one bullet (Standard/Move with rapid reload feat)


Bayonet:
You may attach a bayonet to a rifle or musket to make it functionally identical to a long spear. You may still make normal ranged attacks with the weapon, but at a -1 penalty.

Weapon Jamming:
Hand guns are sometimes unreliable and jam on any roll of a natural 1. You lose any attacks you have remaining for the round, and the gun will not fire again until you take a reload action to clear and reload the gun. Masterwork firearms never jam. Instead, a roll of a 1 indicates a misfire or dud. You pull the trigger and nothing comes out.


New combat actions:

Take Aim

As a move action you may pause to take aim at an opponent. Taking aim renders you flat footed, but gives you a +2 bonus to attacks made with a firearm this round. You are not considered flat footed if you have the uncanny dodge ability or handgun skirmisher feat.

Suppressive Fire

As a full round action, you may lay down suppressive fire. To do this, you must fire your hand gun from cover, discharging a minimum of three bullets. For each bullet beyond the third you discharge in this way, you gain a +1 bonus to your opposed check.

Laying down suppressive fire requires either an attack roll with your firearm or a bluff check. Creatures in a 10 foot radius burst, centered on any point within one range increment of your firearm, must make opposed checks using either their BAB+Wis or a concentration check, whichever is more advantageous. Opponents who fail the opposed check cannot move or take any actions in the following round other than total defense. Creatures must be aware and cognizant of the gunfire to be affected by suppressive fire, so creatures that lack the intelligence to comprehend the danger of bullets or the sensory ability to detect the shots (through hearing, vision, or some other means) are not affected.


Feats:

Rapid Reload (reload faster, see gun descriptions)

Unload:
You unleash fury in a wild hale of lead.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with a firearm, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot
Benefit: As a full round action, you may fire off all bullets remaining in a handgun you are proficient with. All attacks you make this round are at your full base attack bonus with a -4 penalty. If your gun jams while using this feat, you lose that shot and all the remaining shots that this feat would grant you.

Improved Suppressive Fire:
You are adept at laying down suppressive fire.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with a firearm, Rapid Shot
Benefit: You gain an +4 bonus to opposed checks when using the Suppressive Fire action. Additionally, whenever you use the suppressive fire action, you may move up to your speed.
Normal: You may not move and lay down suppressive fire in the same round.

Handgun Skirmisher
You are a veteran of firefights, capable of sticking and moving.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with a firearm, BAB +1
Benefit: You get a +4 bonus on checks to oppose suppressive fire. Additionally, if you lose your action due to suppressive fire, you may still take your movement as normal with a total defense action. Finally, you are not considered flat footed when using the take aim action.
Normal: You cannot move when you fail an opposed suppressive fire roll, and are flat footed when taking aim.

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-18, 12:41 PM
See, that was the kinda thing I was trying to avoid; those guns are fairly inferior to using enchanted bows. Anything with a one-bullet capacity is not going to be part of this system unless it can engage from a pants-wetting distance.

Bagger
2011-02-18, 01:38 PM
it might not matter anymore, but DMG 3.0 have stats for guns, around the same places where the prices for ships stand ;:)

Hawk7915
2011-02-18, 01:40 PM
Well, I'd assume a world with these guns would also have some enchantments/modifications for weapons to make them a bit more competitive with a bow user at higher levels...

"Expanded Clip": Double capacity, 1000 gold. Weapon must be masterwork (this is included in the 1000 gold cost).

"Quad Clip": Quadruples weapon capacity, 3000 gold. Does not stack with Expanded Clip. Weapon must be masterwork (this is included in the 3000 gold cost).

"Easy-loading": Decreases the action required to reload a firearm by one step. Stacks with Rapid Reload to get the action down to free/move for firearms. Price: +1 bonus

Mulletmanalive
2011-02-18, 01:57 PM
You'll have to bear in mind that at no point did you say that these had to stand up to enchanted bows in their basic form, or by extension, that they couldn't be enchanted themselves.

"You'd be better off using enchanted bows" kinda leads me to conclude that it's YOU making the guns suck by not allowing them to be enchanted [and as there's that autoloading crossbow upgrade for +1 i can't see them being unable to compete at all...]

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-18, 02:02 PM
You'll have to bear in mind that at no point did you say that these had to stand up to enchanted bows in their basic form, or by extension, that they couldn't be enchanted themselves.

"You'd be better off using enchanted bows" kinda leads me to conclude that it's YOU making the guns suck by not allowing them to be enchanted [and as there's that autoloading crossbow upgrade for +1 i can't see them being unable to compete at all...]

Well, allow me to rephrase that statement; bows can full-attack at no penalty from massive ranges and are still vastly inferior to melee builds. Guns that are inferior without magic or special upgrades are...mildly pointless.

arguskos
2011-02-18, 02:40 PM
Well, allow me to rephrase that statement; bows can full-attack at no penalty from massive ranges and are still vastly inferior to melee builds. Guns that are inferior without magic or special upgrades are...mildly pointless.
Well, here's an idea: give guns a rapid-fire ability, ala Judge Dredd d20 (yes it's real, it's also real FUN).

In that game, all weapons are firearms (pretty much, anyways), and said firearms have the ability to be used for iterative attacks as well as a Rapid Fire mode. This lets each attack actually be the RF number of attacks, each of which is at a penalty equal to the RF number. For example, the Lawgiver is RF 3. You can fire it once normally, -or- you can rapid fire it. You fire three shots, each at your standard attack bonus-3 (because you're firing three shots, so it's -3). You can do this with every attack you get, really letting a higher level character open up with a hail of pain. Given that attack bonuses scale far better than AC does, this seems like it might be a viable unique mechanism for firearms, especially since it seems you want clip-based weaponry and not single shot weapons.

On a note, if you're looking at Civil War era, you're looking at single-shot muzzle loading rifles still (revolvers you're good for, though). They didn't have magazine breech-loading rifles for a bit yet. If you want multi-shot breechloaders, I'd suggest instead WWI-era weaponry, or even tech around 1890. :smallwink:

EDIT: Also, I entirely disapprove of jam mechanics. Realism and D&D are not best friends, people, and jamming mechanics SUCK to play with.

Human Paragon 3
2011-02-18, 02:40 PM
I disagree. Let's look at the rifle, for instance. It deals 3d8 damage, the same as hitting with a long bow three times, and on a crit it deals 9d8 damage. That's the longbow analogue of the three.

The 4-shot is supposed to be a hybrid between a greatsword and a short bow. It deals significantly more base damage than the short bow, and unlike a greatsword can be used at range. Additionally, with the widdowmaker you can take aim for a +2 to hit, giving it effectively longer range, plus the ability to lay down suppressive fire. Up to 4 shots a round at 2d6 each seems fine compared to a bow and arrow.

As for the six shooter, it's still more base damage than the long bow, you can shoot it as many times in a round, you can take aim and lay suppressive fire, etc. And any of these guns can be enchanted just like a bow. I think they're quite comparable.

As for the jamming mechanic, masterwork guns never jam. If you're above level one, you have a masterwork hand gun... don't you? Jamming is for the shlubs.

ForzaFiori
2011-02-18, 07:34 PM
On a note, if you're looking at Civil War era, you're looking at single-shot muzzle loading rifles still (revolvers you're good for, though). They didn't have magazine breech-loading rifles for a bit yet. If you want multi-shot breechloaders, I'd suggest instead WWI-era weaponry, or even tech around 1890. :smallwink:

The repeater rifle was invented as early as the 17th century with the Kalthoff repeater. The first lever action repeating rifle (the Spencer repeating rifle) was made in 1860, and was used by the Union during the Civil war (mainly by cavalry, due to it's smaller size and because reloading on a horse is hard). In addition, the Gatling gun had been developed in 1851, and was first used in combat in the Civil war, once again by the Union, as well as being used in the Spanish-American war.

EDIT: A magazine for a weapon was first used in 1780, in the Girandoni Air Rifle

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-18, 07:44 PM
The repeater rifle was invented as early as the 17th century with the Kalthoff repeater. The first lever action repeating rifle (the Spencer repeating rifle) was made in 1860, and was used by the Union during the Civil war (mainly by cavalry, due to it's smaller size and because reloading on a horse is hard). In addition, the Gatling gun had been developed in 1851, and was first used in combat in the Civil war, once again by the Union, as well as being used in the Spanish-American war.

EDIT: A magazine for a weapon was first used in 1780, in the Girandoni Air Rifle

Go history, go history, it's your birthday....

arguskos
2011-02-18, 07:45 PM
The repeater rifle was invented as early as the 17th century with the Kalthoff repeater. The first lever action repeating rifle (the Spencer repeating rifle) was made in 1860, and was used by the Union during the Civil war (mainly by cavalry, due to it's smaller size and because reloading on a horse is hard). In addition, the Gatling gun had been developed in 1851, and was first used in combat in the Civil war, once again by the Union, as well as being used in the Spanish-American war.
Yes on all accounts. However, a few notes:

-While the Gatling Gun had been developed by then, it was the size of a cannon and required a crew of several to operate. Hardly great for players.
-While repeating rifles did exist, they weren't heavily used in front-line combat, due to cost of the units and limited availability. The standard weapon was the muzzle-loader for that particular war (of which there were several varieties).
-Also, your mention of the Spencer is incorrect. The actual first repeating rifle that saw military action was the Henry rifle, made in the 50s. It was used, but sparingly, since the Union both never officially adopted it and because the ammunition was expensive to acquire. It did see some limited use, but not enough that I'd say it was the default weapon of the time. The Spencer was approved by Lincoln, which is a point in its favor. Still didn't supplant the muzzle-loader though.

To be fair, the Civil War was the first war where repeating rifles saw use, but the standard weapon was by FAR the muzzle-loader still, and would remain such for at least another 10 to 20 years. My suggestion was that if Gareth wants to avoid single-shot rifles, he should move the general tech level up to around 1890-1900, when single-shots were widely obsolete, thanks to internal magazines becoming more and more common. :smallwink:

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-18, 07:47 PM
In any event, we can make up guns if we need to (go magitech, go magitech, it's your birthday). I'm just looking for a capacity of around 4 - 10 shots per gun.

arguskos
2011-02-18, 07:48 PM
In any event, we can make up guns if we need to (go magitech, go magitech, it's your birthday). I'm just looking for a capacity of around 4 - 10 shots per gun.
I still think the way to go involves the Rapid Fire mechanic I presented earlier (and which was totally ignored by everyone). It's surprisingly effective, especially in 3.5 where attack bonus scales so very nicely.

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-18, 07:49 PM
I still think the way to go involves the Rapid Fire mechanic I presented earlier (and which was totally ignored by everyone). It's surprisingly effective, especially in 3.5 where attack bonus scales so very nicely.

Are you not concerned that the sheer number of attacks will both invalidate melee and bog down combat?

arguskos
2011-02-18, 07:56 PM
Are you not concerned that the sheer number of attacks will both invalidate melee and bog down combat?
Melee is viable due to dealing a crazy amount of damage (seriously, look at chargers). To be fair, S&B gets screwed, but they were already, and that's another issue entirely (one deserving of several of its own threads). If you're really concerned for melee, keep the damage relatively low (call it 1d12 for pistols, 2d8 for rifles, just for the moment) and since guns get no stats to damage nor any force multipliers, the damage is actually quite reasonable. Sure, 6d8 from a rifle at level 4 is preeeeetty good, but then again, the fightgar could well be doing 2d6+20. Given that 6d8 is three attacks and averages to 27, I think we're good. :smallcool:

If your players roll rapidly or in groups of attacks (what I suggest), it doesn't bog things down. Like I said, I saw this in Judge Dredd, and it wasn't really that bad. RF 6 is a bit annoying, but since they're all at the same number, just roll 6 d20s and add the same modifier. It's pretty snappy.

wayfare
2011-02-18, 09:36 PM
Before you get to actual weapons, a few rules changes might be in order.

1) Characters using a firearm can full attack and full move in the same action.

Reason: Think of every action movie you've ever seen. This is a pretty common ability -- even if its easier to aim while standing still, characters who are effectively heroes out of legend shouldn't face that restriction.

2) Ranged damage gets an ability modifier. I typically use Wisdom to represent "shot placement."

Reason: This is probably an unrealistic conceit, but I feel that it goes a ways to leveling the playing field. If this idea is a bit too extreme, check the Precision Aiming feat below.

3) Characters no longer take penalties for firing into melee.

Reason: Legolas. Vash. Any of the Guys from Wanted. Firing into melee is hard in real life, but so is attacking with a greatsword 4 times in the space of 10 seconds.

I use these rules in my games, and they work out pretty well.

As for Feats, one thing i find pretty helpful is this:

Precision Aiming
Prerequisite: Wisdom 15
Effect: When making a ranged attack, you can reduce your initiative to 1 to add your Wisdom modifier to the damage all ranged attacks you make this round.

Sniper's Mark
Prerequisite: Precision Aiming
Effect: You may take a full action to make a single attack this round at your highest attack bonus. On a successful attack, you inflict damage as if you had landed a critical hit. If you land a critical hit as part of this attack, increase the critical multiplier of your weapon by 1.

And as for Weaponry

Dueling Pistol
This beautifully crafted weapon is forged with a long, elegant barrel. A marksman's weapon through and through, only the most skilled (or overconfident) soldier would take one into battle.
Damage: 2d6. Range: 100 ft. Crit 19-20/x3. Capacity: 1 Shot
Reload: Swift action

4 Barrel Pistol
This short, stubby weapon fuses multiple barrels to a single frame, a heavy, boxy outline. A clockwork firing pin cycles between chambers after each shot, allowing the wielder to fire multiple shots before reload
Damage: 2d4. Range: 50 ft. Crit x3. Capacity: 4 Shots
Reload: Move action

Stacked Rifle
This weapon fuses two rifle barrels in a vertical frame, each with its own firing chamber. Designed to make shots at extraordinary range while still maintaining a steady rate of fire, this is the signature weapon of the sniper.
Damage: 2d6. Range: 200 ft. Crit x3. Capacity: 2 Shots
Reload: Standard Action

HUMVEE Driver
2011-02-18, 10:17 PM
Just stating the obvious, there is a whole book for D20 Modern with firearms rules and feats. There is also D20 Past, it covers blackpowder and other older weapons.

I've used many items and ideas from both and it all works well.

Also, as a former Marine Infantryman its my humble opinion that they got the rules/damage/etc just right.

Cieyrin
2011-02-18, 10:28 PM
Before you get to actual weapons, a few rules changes might be in order.

1) Characters using a firearm can full attack and full move in the same action.

Reason: Think of every action movie you've ever seen. This is a pretty common ability -- even if its easier to aim while standing still, characters who are effectively heroes out of legend shouldn't face that restriction.

That's Manyshot and its bigger brother, Greater Manyshot, right there. Possibly Shot on the Run. Making them not cost feats would be nice, yeah...


2) Ranged damage gets an ability modifier. I typically use Wisdom to represent "shot placement."

Reason: This is probably an unrealistic conceit, but I feel that it goes a ways to leveling the playing field. If this idea is a bit too extreme, check the Precision Aiming feat below.

Makes your ranged characters MADder or at least as MAD as archers. I suppose it's a nice tie-in into Zen Archery, though.


3) Characters no longer take penalties for firing into melee.

Reason: Legolas. Vash. Any of the Guys from Wanted. Firing into melee is hard in real life, but so is attacking with a greatsword 4 times in the space of 10 seconds.

Precise Shot is a pretty stupid feat tax, yeah. Ranged combat in general needs their feat tree quashed significantly to make the field more even with chargers.


Precision Aiming
Prerequisite: Wisdom 15
Effect: When making a ranged attack, you can reduce your initiative to 1 to add your Wisdom modifier to the damage all ranged attacks you make this round.

Yikes. Sniper Only, I'd say. That's quite the drawback there. Not one I'd take lightly or possibly ever except in surprise situations.


Sniper's Mark
Prerequisite: Precision Aiming
Effect: You may take a full action to make a single attack this round at your highest attack bonus. On a successful attack, you inflict damage as if you had landed a critical hit. If you land a critical hit as part of this attack, increase the critical multiplier of your weapon by 1.

This, I don't mind so much. Can get really ugly with the right energy bursts and other effects.


And as for Weaponry

Dueling Pistol
This beautifully crafted weapon is forged with a long, elegant barrel. A marksman's weapon through and through, only the most skilled (or overconfident) soldier would take one into battle.
Damage: 2d6. Range: 100 ft. Crit 19-20/x3. Capacity: 1 Shot
Reload: Swift action

4 Barrel Pistol
This short, stubby weapon fuses multiple barrels to a single frame, a heavy, boxy outline. A clockwork firing pin cycles between chambers after each shot, allowing the wielder to fire multiple shots before reload
Damage: 2d4. Range: 50 ft. Crit x3. Capacity: 4 Shots
Reload: Move action

Stacked Rifle
This weapon fuses two rifle barrels in a vertical frame, each with its own firing chamber. Designed to make shots at extraordinary range while still maintaining a steady rate of fire, this is the signature weapon of the sniper.
Damage: 2d6. Range: 200 ft. Crit x3. Capacity: 2 Shots
Reload: Standard Action

Are these reload times per barrel or in total? I'd also top the 4 Barrel Pistol at 5 shots, personally, for Full Attack + Improved Rapid Shot. It's why Repeating Crossbows are that way, why not our proto-revolvers? Make a true 6-shooter if you want to include Speed Weapons or Haste.

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-18, 10:50 PM
Just stating the obvious, there is a whole book for D20 Modern with firearms rules and feats. There is also D20 Past, it covers blackpowder and other older weapons.

I've used many items and ideas from both and it all works well.

Also, as a former Marine Infantryman its my humble opinion that they got the rules/damage/etc just right.

D20 Modern operates on a set of assumptions that are fundamentally different from D&D 3.5, and thus I am incredibly reluctant to use their system.

wayfare
2011-02-18, 11:09 PM
That's Manyshot and its bigger brother, Greater Manyshot, right there. Possibly Shot on the Run. Making them not cost feats would be nice, yeah...

In practice, is makes a nice distinction between bow and gun users. Particularly in the case of pistols, the ability to fire and move is a great advantage.

Makes your ranged characters MADder or at least as MAD as archers. I suppose it's a nice tie-in into Zen Archery, though.

This is true, but the way i figure it, you can dump Str and Con as you probably shouldn't be getting into fistfights anyway. If you are a ranger,Wis is already a given to maxout your spellcasting, and dex is probably gonna get pumped to compensate for the crummy leather armor you are running around in.
Honest question here, does 2 count as MAD? The monk is the textbook MAD character, needing 4 or 5 stats to be playable the way the designers intended. But 2 stats never really bothered me as a requirement for a class.

Precise Shot is a pretty stupid feat tax, yeah. Ranged combat in general needs their feat tree quashed significantly to make the field more even with chargers.

Yep, my thoughts exactly

Yikes. Sniper Only, I'd say. That's quite the drawback there. Not one I'd take lightly or possibly ever except in surprise situations.

Yeah, I prefer to just let add wisdom to damage, but I have heard complaints that +wis to damage is OP without a feat.

This, I don't mind so much. Can get really ugly with the right energy bursts and other effects.

Energy bursts...yeah...one guy i knew had this insane lightning mace build that used shocking and thundering maces. Yikes.

I figured this was a pretty decent way of simulating a snipers "headshot" type maneuver. The auto-crit function also makes it useful against foes that are difficult to hit with ititerative attacks (one attack is basically turned into 3 hits).

Are these reload times per barrel or in total? I'd also top the 4 Barrel Pistol at 5 shots, personally, for Full Attack + Improved Rapid Shot. It's why Repeating Crossbows are that way, why not our proto-revolvers? Make a true 6-shooter if you want to include Speed Weapons or Haste.

The reload times are to reload the entire weapon. I should probably refer to the "Real Armor and Weapon Questions" thread, but it seems that nocking and aiming an arrow should be pretty time consuming. Since D&D assumes its not very hard to do at all, i figured that reloading a few chambers should be pretty easy as well.

HUMVEE Driver
2011-02-18, 11:21 PM
D20 Modern operates on a set of assumptions that are fundamentally different from D&D 3.5, and thus I am incredibly reluctant to use their system.

You really think so? I'm just curious about a fellow home-brewer's take on that. No big deal.

Land Outcast
2011-02-18, 11:53 PM
This, I don't mind so much. Can get really ugly with the right energy bursts and other effects.

Energy bursts...yeah...one guy i knew had this insane lightning mace build that used shocking and thundering maces. Yikes.

I figured this was a pretty decent way of simulating a snipers "headshot" type maneuver. The auto-crit function also makes it useful against foes that are difficult to hit with ititerative attacks (one attack is basically turned into 3 hits).

Can get really really ugly with magical rays.
I know its two feats and Wis 15, but i'm just saying (any ray mage would invest in Wisdom and get those two feats without a second thought).

wayfare
2011-02-19, 12:03 AM
Can get really really ugly with magical rays.
I know its two feats and Wis 15, but i'm just saying (any ray mage would invest in Wisdom and get those two feats without a second thought).

Hmm...good point.

Maybe a clause about how this only applies to weapon attacks.

Ashtagon
2011-02-19, 01:41 AM
Are these reload times per barrel or in total? I'd also top the 4 Barrel Pistol at 5 shots, personally, for Full Attack + Improved Rapid Shot. It's why Repeating Crossbows are that way, why not our proto-revolvers? Make a true 6-shooter if you want to include Speed Weapons or Haste.

The reload times are to reload the entire weapon. I should probably refer to the "Real Armor and Weapon Questions" thread, but it seems that nocking and aiming an arrow should be pretty time consuming. Since D&D assumes its not very hard to do at all, i figured that reloading a few chambers should be pretty easy as well.

I used to do archery regularly. Taking time to aim carefully, I'd probably get 5 shots a minute (one round to aim, one to fire). At speed, I could get twice that, and the long-time veterans could get twice that again (ie. 2 shots per round).

According to GURPS 4e:

* "matchlocks" take 61 seconds to cycle; 9 full rounds to reload, plus one attack action to fire.
* "flintlocks" take 16 seconds to cycle; 2 full rounds to reload, plus one attack action to fire.
* bows require 3 seconds to cycle; move action to reload, and attack action to fire.
* cartridge-fed guns require 4 seconds to cycle; move action to reload, and attack action to fire as many shots as the burst fire mechanism allows (typically one shot for personal weapons up to and including WW2).
* Ultra-tech guns may have shorter cycling times, but that's beyond the scope of historical accuracy. At best this results in a swift action to reload.

This summary is somewhat simplistic, because the core rulebook in that system simplifies it a bit. The supplements go into excruciating detail in defining the intermediate steps.

Note that the decision on whether to require an attack action reload or allow move action reloads is an important one. Without iterative attacks, this means a rof of 1/round or 1 per 2 rounds. With iterative attacks and a magazine, this is the difference between boomstick and damp squib.

Also important is that a realistic matchlock rof essentially turns a gun into a "one shot per combat" weapon. Once you go past 3 rounds to reload, you may as well make that a hard-wired rule, to prevent players wasting their actions on something that will only be completed after the fight is over.

So now you have the realism numbers. Pick your rof and have fun with it.

wayfare
2011-02-19, 02:15 AM
QUOTE=Ashtagon;10404839

I used to do archery regularly. Taking time to aim carefully, I'd probably get 5 shots a minute (one round to aim, one to fire). At speed, I could get twice that, and the long-time veterans could get twice that again (ie. 2 shots per round).

Hummmm...Well i guess it follows that BA +20 characters would be able to get 4 attacks off each round -- these are supposed to be heroes of legend, after all.

According to GURPS 4e:

* "matchlocks" take 61 seconds to cycle; 9 full rounds to reload, plus one attack action to fire.
* "flintlocks" take 16 seconds to cycle; 2 full rounds to reload, plus one attack action to fire.
* bows require 3 seconds to cycle; move action to reload, and attack action to fire.
* cartridge-fed guns require 4 seconds to cycle; move action to reload, and attack action to fire as many shots as the burst fire mechanism allows (typically one shot for personal weapons up to and including WW2).

Thanks for the info. Does this mean that bows in GURPS can only be fired once each round?

Would something like this be more accurate?

1) Bows require no action to reload, but a character cannot full attack and move while wielding a bow (Barring feats, of course)

2) Guns require actions to reload, but a character wielding a pistol can fire multiple shots in a round and still take a move action?

Ashtagon
2011-02-19, 03:56 AM
Just as a clarification, a combat round in GURPS is defined as one second. In a single round, you might spend the entire time reloading, aiming, shooting, swinging a melee weapon, changing a weapon's attack mode (e.g. switching from single-shot to auto, or from a one-handed grip to two-handed), or recovering your combat stance after swinging with a particularly cumbersome melee weapon (e.g. flails).

The "rounds equivalent" I wrote in my earlier post were my approximations of converting the above numbers into d20 terms. GURPS doesn't use the word as a game term.

For my personal house rules, I'm dropping iterative attacks entirely (except that anyone with BAB +6 or higher may use a move action to make a melee or thrown attack). The reason is that my house rules are intended to cover all levels of technology, and iterative attacks really screw up any sense of scale for autofire attacks.

(And yes, magic also gets 'nerfed'; fighters aren't the only guys to get shafted)

In a world without firearms, iterative attacks and range values (if using core feats, classes, and prestige classes only) numbers rules actually work for bows; 20 shots per minute is quite possible for a realistic veteran archer. I have no personal experience with crossbows, and being muscle-powered, statistics on crossbow rof is limited and highly subjective.

It is also considered very dangerous to walk around with a bow and arrow nocked, drawn, and ready to fire. Accidental discharge ("loosing" in archery jargon), physical wear and tear (this is a high-stress position for the materials), and personal tiredness (a good bow for the wielder should be at the upper limit of his strength to hold in that position). Let a PC do this for a number of rounds equal to his Strength score, then he suffers a -2 penalty on all arm-related actions until he takes a short rest.

These are untested, but I'd seriously consider the following:

General

* Melee weapons and thrown weapons benefit from iterative attacks as normal (no change from core rules).
* Bows, slings, crossbows, repeating crossbows, and firearms can all optionally use a character's Wisdom modifier as a bonus to damage, instead of whatever ability modifier bonus the weapon might normally have (if any), provided the character is proficient in the weapon's use, and strong enough to use that weapon.

Low-Tech

* Crossbows and slings never benefit from iterative attacks. Repeating crossbows are considered a kind of magazine-fed "gun" for these rules. To compensate, slings and hand crossbows can be reloaded as a swift action; light crossbows are a move action to reload, and heavy crossbows are an standard action to reload.
* bows are normally a swift action to reload. As a full-round action, they can use iterative attacks, and reloading is a free action for any arrow loosed during that round (this means you end the round with no arrow nocked).

Guns

* Matchlocks require two full rounds to reload, and a standard action to fire.
* Flintlocks require one full round to reload, and a standard action to fire.
* If using loose powder & ball ammunition, add one full round to the above reloading times, as you have to carefully measure and pour the powder down the barrel. As a historical note, hunters typically used loose powder, while soldiers typically had prepared "paper cartridges", which use the above reload times.
* Single-shot cartridge firearms and magazine-fed personal firearms take a move action to reload.
* Multi-shot guns, such as revolvers and double-barrel shotguns, can be fully reloaded as a full-round action. Reloading a single barrel is a move action. Some revolvers have reloading devices which hold six (or however many) bullets in position together to line up with their places inside the gun. This device means the entire weapon (if empty) can be reloaded as a move action.
* A firearm that has a magazine and is firing in single-shot mode can benefit from iterative attacks. This includes repeating crossbows.

Burst Fire and Other Funky Rules

* Firearms with a burst setting (for personal firearms, this typically includes only those from the Korean War and onwards) will have an extra "burst number". A burst fire attack is takes an attack action. When firing a burst, you fire as many shots as the burst number, and all shots suffer an attack penalty equal to the burst number. You may designate more than one target; shots are split evenly between targets, and each empty 5-foot space between actual targets is considered as one additional target for purposes of counting wasted bullets. Example: A weapon with burst 6 fires at two targets who are 10 feet apart. Each target is attacked with a -6 penalty to the attack roll, and two rolls are made against each target (two shots are wasted on 'attacking' the space between them). All targets must be within a 90-degree arc from the attacking character.
* Alternate Burst/Suppression Fire Mechanic: Here is a modified version of Traveller T20's autofire rule. Spend a variable number of shots (max is dependent on the weapon stats) and a full round action, pick a 90-degree cone out to a single range increment of your weapon. Discard half the shots spent and make one attack against each enemy in the area, up to the number of shots left. If you have any shots left over, until the start of your next turn, each time an enemy enters the area covered you may make an attack roll against that enemy.

* If using the Simple/Martial/Exotic paradigm, I'd place single-shot cartridge guns in the simple category. Most other modern guns would be martial (for game balance, if nothing else). Matchlocks and flintlocks should be either Martial or Exotic.

* Bayonets: Long guns can be fitted with a bayonet, which makes them functionally equal to a small spear in melee.
* Club/Axe grips: Early pistols sometimes had clubs or even small axes built into the grips. These would be extremely dangerous to use as melee weapons while the weapon is loaded.
* Sniper Gun: Long guns may be designed in special sniper version, require more precise engineering and improved sights. This is treated as a masterwork weapon for combat statistics.
* Shotguns: Anything that is even pretending to be realistic should not have a cone or even a line area of effect attack. The best approaches I have seen involve a higher initial damage than the corresponding long arm, shorter range increments, and range increment penalties applying to both attack rolls and damage rolls.


Feats

Rapid Reload: Your time taken to reload a bow, sling, crossbow, or gun that you are proficient with is reduced by one step (two full rounds > one full round > standard action > move action > swift action). This feat cannot reduce the reload time below a swift action, and cannot grant iterative attacks with a weapon that cannot normally benefit from iterative attacks.

Measured Powder: When using loose powder & ball ammunition in a matchlock or flintlock gun that you are proficient with, you can intentionally overload the gun without risk of bursting the barrel. You add your Intelligence bonus (if any) to the damage rolled, in addition to any other bonuses to damage you may have. Additionally, the weapon's range increment is increased by 5 feet (for pistols), or 10 feet (for long arms).

Further Reading

http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1422
http://www.malhavocpress.com/images/Technology.pdf

Cieyrin
2011-02-19, 05:05 PM
Nice, Ash, though I have a small pet peeve with the treatment of slings, as they're getting the short end of the stick, as usual.

The chief problem here is the thought that you can't fire a sling as fast as a bow, which isn't true. It's a matter of swinging the sling underhanded in a rhythm so you fire and reload a stone when you know it'll be in position, which is no more time consuming than pulling an arrow from a quiver, knocking and firing.

The historical data shows what truly did the sling in in preference for the bow isn't its range, deadliness or availability but its training time. Good slingers are trained from a young age and it's not a skill picked up quickly, compared to the bow, which could be taught in a matter of weeks, month or two tops, to be competent enough with the weapon to be a threat on the battlefield.

Really, the most accurate representation of a sling in 3.5 is probably the Halfling Warsling, at least in terms of statistics. It still has the stupid reload mechanism involved but at least it's a proper threat for it's Exotic weapon proficiency. If I were to redo it, I'd treat slings as thrown weapons instead of projectiles, as slings are basically just arm extensions to generate more force for your throw.

[/derail]

Ashtagon
2011-02-20, 02:57 AM
You'll notice I purposely did not specify damage ranges for the guns in my last post. That's because this is a campaign flavour issue that will vary depending on the role you want guns to have in your campaign.

If you want guns to be as equally valid a choice as bows, look at the average damage per round (including modifiers for a modest ability score bonus and the first two feats of obvious choices to improve damage with the weapon), and make them do approximately the same damage. If you want bows to be clearly the weaker option, make it so by raising the guns' dps slightly above that of bows.

Personally, I suspect the break point where a gun became superior to a bow in the hands of an experienced soldier was around the time the brass cartridge was invented. If you can manipulate the numbers right though, guns (and crossbows) should be superior to bows in the hands of a newbie, as this reflects historical reality.

As for slings, I think this is exactly what was done relative to bows. There was an intentional game design decision made in the 1st edition days to make the sling an inferior weapon relative to the bow, such that low tech / primitive / just plain stupid cultures only would be using it. If you want to play in a Biblical era historical campaign, upping the stats of the sling relative to the bow would be justified.

Cieyrin
2011-02-20, 03:12 PM
You'll notice I purposely did not specify damage ranges for the guns in my last post. That's because this is a campaign flavour issue that will vary depending on the role you want guns to have in your campaign.

If you want guns to be as equally valid a choice as bows, look at the average damage per round (including modifiers for a modest ability score bonus and the first two feats of obvious choices to improve damage with the weapon), and make them do approximately the same damage. If you want bows to be clearly the weaker option, make it so by raising the guns' dps slightly above that of bows.

Personally, I suspect the break point where a gun became superior to a bow in the hands of an experienced soldier was around the time the brass cartridge was invented. If you can manipulate the numbers right though, guns (and crossbows) should be superior to bows in the hands of a newbie, as this reflects historical reality.

As for slings, I think this is exactly what was done relative to bows. There was an intentional game design decision made in the 1st edition days to make the sling an inferior weapon relative to the bow, such that low tech / primitive / just plain stupid cultures only would be using it. If you want to play in a Biblical era historical campaign, upping the stats of the sling relative to the bow would be justified.

So... we're redesigning ranged weapons to balance them against each other but leaving slings in the lurch for game design reasons? If anything, primitive societies would seem to me to lean towards thrown weapons or blow guns. Can be effective, just not at projectile weapon ranges. Simple != ineffective.

Ashtagon
2011-02-20, 03:39 PM
So... we're redesigning ranged weapons to balance them against each other but leaving slings in the lurch for game design reasons? If anything, primitive societies would seem to me to lean towards thrown weapons or blow guns. Can be effective, just not at projectile weapon ranges. Simple != ineffective.

No, what we are doing is designing (or redesigning if you like, but there aren't any 100% core firearm rules in D&D, so yeah) ranged weapons to be unbalanced against each other to a known degree. The unbalancing is intended to be fine-tuned so that the weapons intended to be most flavourful for the campaign setting are slightly better than the rest (bows in core D&D), and those weapons that are intended to be marginalised in the campaign are being intentionally made weaker than the core weapons of the setting.

As for how primitive is primitive, shortbows, slings, and atlatls (spear-throwers) are all known to date from the neolithic era. Blowguns were essentially unknown outside of SE Asia and the Americas, so they aren't really characteristic of primitive cultures generally. I'd also say that when looking at neolithic cultures, making a thrown weapon more complex than a rock aerodynamic enough to be relevant as a thrown weapon would be beyond that technology level.

There is balanced, they is unbalanced as a flaw, and there is unbalanced by design. I sincerely believe that core D&D made slings unbalanced by design.

Now, if you want a campaign setting in which slings are relevant, up their stats. And be aware that this is an intentional adjustment to make them more powerful than before, either to equate them to the other primary ranged weapons of the setting, or in a setting in which they are intended to be primary, superior.

dsmiles
2011-02-20, 03:46 PM
Really? Why rewrite a system that works? Iron Kingdoms has perfectly acceptable rules for guns. It's what all the cool kids are using. :smallcool:

Cieyrin
2011-02-21, 12:04 PM
Really? Why rewrite a system that works? Iron Kingdoms has perfectly acceptable rules for guns. It's what all the cool kids are using. :smallcool:

Acceptable and fun? Yes. Could it be improved on? Certainly! :smallbiggrin:

dsmiles
2011-02-21, 12:08 PM
Acceptable and fun? Yes. Could it be improved on? Certainly! :smallbiggrin:Never said it was perfect. :smallwink: But I do believe that it works well enough for a high-technology campaign setting. It also leaves justification for bows and crossbows (reload times are a PITA for a lot of guns).

Cieyrin
2011-02-21, 12:35 PM
Never said it was perfect. :smallwink: But I do believe that it works well enough for a high-technology campaign setting. It also leaves justification for bows and crossbows (reload times are a PITA for a lot of guns).

I think the best feature of the IK gun system is just how modular it is, so you can trick out your guns even before we get into special bullets and magic enhancements, not to mention magelocks.

dsmiles
2011-02-21, 12:38 PM
I think the best feature of the IK gun system is just how modular it is, so you can trick out your guns even before we get into special bullets and magic enhancements, not to mention magelocks.
Indeed. I love modifying my firearms. My last Gun Mage had a bonded quad-barreled magelock military pistol. (Expensive? Yes. Heavy? Certainly. Cool? ABSOLUTELY!) :smallbiggrin:

Cieyrin
2011-02-21, 01:29 PM
Indeed. I love modifying my firearms. My last Gun Mage had a bonded quad-barreled magelock military pistol. (Expensive? Yes. Heavy? Certainly. Cool? ABSOLUTELY!) :smallbiggrin:

Heavy? That's what the lightweight modification is for! :smalltongue: Also, the Balanced Multibarrel mod from Liber Magicika is better weightwise compared to normal multibarreling, IIRC.

dsmiles
2011-02-21, 01:35 PM
Heavy? That's what the lightweight modification is for! :smalltongue: Also, the Balanced Multibarrel mod from Liber Magicika is better weightwise compared to normal multibarreling, IIRC.At the time, the only books I had were the IK Character Guide, and Monsternomicon v1. I now have the Liber Mechanicka, Lock & Load, the Witchfire Trilogy (which I was supposed to start running this weekend) and the Monsternomicon v2.

Cieyrin
2011-02-21, 01:55 PM
At the time, the only books I had were the IK Character Guide, and Monsternomicon v1. I now have the Liber Mechanicka, Lock & Load, the Witchfire Trilogy (which I was supposed to start running this weekend) and the Monsternomicon v2.

Well, Balanced Multibarreled would have been out of the question but Lightweight is in the Character Guide. :smallconfused:

dsmiles
2011-02-21, 02:07 PM
Well, Balanced Multibarreled would have been out of the question but Lightweight is in the Character Guide. :smallconfused:
Looking at my character sheet, it was lightweight. But it still weighed in at a respectable 8 and 1/3 pounds. (12.5 lbs - 1/3 of total weight = 8 1/3 lbs.) And as a Gun Mage, strength wasn't a high priority when assigning my rolls, plus I still had to carry ammo, adventuring gear, and a gunsmith's kit.

Cieyrin
2011-02-21, 02:14 PM
Looking at my character sheet, it was lightweight. But it still weighed in at a respectable 8 and 1/3 pounds. (12.5 lbs - 1/3 of total weight = 8 1/3 lbs.) And as a Gun Mage, strength wasn't a high priority when assigning my rolls, plus I still had to carry ammo, adventuring gear, and a gunsmith's kit.

Yeah, that can get heavy, especially considering traditional IK doesn't have extradimensional spaces like the Handy Haversack available. :smallsigh:

dsmiles
2011-02-21, 02:20 PM
But, MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN did it ever look awesome! :smallbiggrin:

GnomeWorks
2011-02-21, 04:23 PM
No, what we are doing is designing (or redesigning if you like, but there aren't any 100% core firearm rules in D&D, so yeah) ranged weapons to be unbalanced against each other to a known degree. The unbalancing is intended to be fine-tuned so that the weapons intended to be most flavourful for the campaign setting are slightly better than the rest (bows in core D&D), and those weapons that are intended to be marginalised in the campaign are being intentionally made weaker than the core weapons of the setting.

That... is an interesting concept.

However, it would seem to lend itself to a monocultural setting. Not only that, but how do you allow for the concept of a character that favors an unusual weapon, if that weapon is at a clear mechanical disadvantage?

What would be interesting to do is to build different weapon tables for the various cultures present in a setting, and modify the base damage - or even other factors - based on that culture's preference. This would help further distinguish one culture from another, based upon the weapons they favor, and allow for the "weird guy who uses an unusual weapon" concept, by allowing them to, say, spend a feat, to be able to use a different culture's weapon table.

Ashtagon
2011-02-21, 04:35 PM
That... is an interesting concept.

However, it would seem to lend itself to a monocultural setting. Not only that, but how do you allow for the concept of a character that favors an unusual weapon, if that weapon is at a clear mechanical disadvantage?

What would be interesting to do is to build different weapon tables for the various cultures present in a setting, and modify the base damage - or even other factors - based on that culture's preference. This would help further distinguish one culture from another, based upon the weapons they favor, and allow for the "weird guy who uses an unusual weapon" concept, by allowing them to, say, spend a feat, to be able to use a different culture's weapon table.

I think the best way to reflect that exotic culture is to give them a free feat that boosts the exotic weapon* to a certain degree, or otherwise makes the exotic weapon more accessible to that culture. Kind of like how orcs get free proficiency in orcish double axes. It might also be justifiable to create feats that boost those weapons a little further (if not already present), kind of like how most core weapons have feats designed to work better with certain weapons.

I know it'd be nice to have one ruleset to rule them all, but practically speaking, campaigns will be focused on one area, and it makes for more fun to play up to that region.


* I'm using exotic weapon in the common English sense, not in the 3e game jargon sense.