Dread Witch vs the mindless

[prufock]

The Dread Witch prestige class has an ability called Greater Master of Terror, which states that "your fear spells are now so potent that they can affect individuals normally immune to fear, such as paladins." Would you say that this extends to those immune to mind-affecting spells, such as constructs, undead, etc, or is it just those with a specific immunity to fear (like the paladin)? Better yet, has there been an official statement on that?

[Doc Roc]

Its big advantage is that it just works. Don't take that away.

[Yukitsu]

I rather it work on everything, because it's funny scaring trees (not animated ones) to death. Beyond comedic value, you might as well let it work. Fear effects are generally below par compared to everything else, the giant list of things immune to it doesn't help that.

[Kuma Kode]

Technically, no. Fear is a separate effect from mind-affecting, even if they constantly go together. Even though that ability allows the fear to bypass an undead's immunity to fear, it does not bypass the undead's immunity to mind-affecting attacks, in much the same way it won't allow you to bypass a golem's immunity to magic in general.

Immunities work in layers.

You: "Are you immune to magic?"
Monster: "Nope."
You: "Are you immune to necromancy as a whole?"
Monster: "Nope."
You: "Are you immune to mind-affecting attacks?"
Monster: "Nope."
You: "Are you immune to fear?"
Monster: "Nope."
You: "Make a save."

You essentially run that check every time you use a spell or ability, except that ability lets you skip that last question. If anything else ends up "Yep." you're still blocked.

[WinWin]

The only argument I have against it is that Fear tends to be a sub category of Mind Effecting.

I would personally allow it to function though.

[FMArthur]

I rather it work on everything, because it's funny scaring trees (not animated ones) to death. Beyond comedic value, you might as well let it work. Fear effects are generally below par compared to everything else, the giant list of things immune to it doesn't help that.

What? Fear effects are the easiest disables in the whole game, with tremendously powerful options to improve them, and are held in check only by fear-immunity. That said, I've always disliked blanket immunity as a balancing mechanism to begin with. I'm only really annoyed by the fact that spellcasters still end up winning at fear because of Dread Witch, despite melee warriors getting the vast majority of fun fear-based options.

Regardless of what we may think about fear effects and their power, Greater Master of Terror does indeed penetrate all kinds of fear immunity.

[Darth Stabber]

Given that otherwise Dread witch is the worst Full progression PRC (so still decent), you may as well scare Oerth.

[FMArthur]

Technically, no. Fear is a separate effect from mind-affecting, even if they constantly go together. Even though that ability allows the fear to bypass an undead's immunity to fear, it does not bypass the undead's immunity to mind-affecting attacks, in much the same way it won't allow you to bypass a golem's immunity to magic in general.

Immunities work in layers.

You: "Are you immune to magic?"
Monster: "Nope."
You: "Are you immune to necromancy as a whole?"
Monster: "Nope."
You: "Are you immune to mind-affecting attacks?"
Monster: "Nope."
You: "Are you immune to fear?"
Monster: "Nope."
You: "Make a save."

You essentially run that check every time you use a spell or ability, except that ability lets you skip that last question. If anything else ends up "Yep." you're still blocked.

If someone is immune to fear because they are immune to mind-effecting attacks, they are immune to fear. Greater Master of Terror makes your fear spells work on targets if they are immune to fear. It works.

[prufock]

Is there an official source for that, seems like we have a split on opinions here. Kuma has a good argument.

I ask because I'm planning to play one. I have other options at my disposal, but if I can't find a solid answer, I guess it will be up to the DM.

Edit: But then, FMArthur's rebuttal also makes sense.

[Thefurmonger]

Throw me on the FMArthur bandwagon.

Seriously, this is what the PRC does. really thats the whole point of it.

Take that away and it really becomes crap.

[Kuma Kode]

By that logic, a golem's magic immunity makes it immune to fear, so should the dread witch's fear spells bypass that, too? Fear is a particular effect. Some characters are immune to fear specifically, like the stated paladin, but not to mind-affecting attacks in general. The fact the ability specifically mentioned paladin rather than, say, an undead or golem suggests it is only meant to bypass fear immunity. If it was meant to be able to bypass anything that could potentially make your enemy immune to your spell, it would probably say so more clearly.

While that does limit the Dread Witch's utility, "it would suck otherwise" isn't really a good argument when talking about RAW in classes. Some classes simply suck. In its niche, the dread witch is golden. Against creatures that bypass that niche, it's useless. Welcome to Tier 4.

EDIT: What I mean is that the ability to bypass anything and everything that can block your spell, to strip your enemy of any defense up to and including immunity to magic itself is such a powerful ability it would be called out specifically in the text, rather than implied.


"Your fear spells are now so potent that they can affect individuals normally immune to fear, such as paladins."^ Text specifically mentions immunity to fear. If it meant any immunity in general, it would read more like, "Your fear spells are now so potent that they can affect individuals normally immune, such as paladins." It would also likely list some other examples like wights or animated objects to clarify.

[Gorgondantess]

By that logic, a golem's magic immunity makes it immune to fear

Actually, no. There are fear effects that are nonmagical, such as intimidate.

[Grelna the Blue]

I don't think a Dread Witch could normally do it, no, but a Dread Witch with the feat Threnodic Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/threnodic-spell-metamagic) could. It's from Pathfinder, but if you're a 3.5 purist it's functionally identical to the old Dragon magazine feat Song of the Dead.

[Kuma Kode]

Actually, no. There are fear effects that are nonmagical, such as intimidate. Technically yes, but I was referring to fear in context of fear spells.

[Yukitsu]

What? Fear effects are the easiest disables in the whole game, with tremendously powerful options to improve them, and are held in check only by fear-immunity. That said, I've always disliked blanket immunity as a balancing mechanism to begin with. I'm only really annoyed by the fact that spellcasters still end up winning at fear because of Dread Witch, despite melee warriors getting the vast majority of fun fear-based options.

Well, yeah, but that's only because 99% of the rest of everything just kills everything outright with similar expenditure, and less optimization.