Wraithstrike [3.5]

[Moose Man]

how much does a ring of continuous wraithstrike cost (LVL 2 spell, Caster level 3)?

[Doc Roc]

how much does a ring or continuous wraithstrike cost (LVL 2 spell, Caster level 3)?

My experience is that it costs one head wound from the GM. While the custom item rules do exist, they are not used outside of the most far-fetched optimization endeavors, or the simplest and most genteel.

A wand will probably do the trick, anyway.

[Keld Denar]

All of it.

Seriously, this shouldn't be allowed for the same reason that a continuous or use activated item of True Strike shouldn't.

[Doc Roc]

All of it.

Seriously, this shouldn't be allowed for the same reason that a continuous or use activated item of True Strike shouldn't.

I have allowed that once. It was an artifact sword, and it's a very long story.

[Thefurmonger]

My experience is that it costs one head wound from the GM.

+1, Just don't do it.

[Moose Man]

yet tier one exists. so if my warblade wants to not spend a maneuver on emerald razor, y can't he have nice things?

[Keld Denar]

In THEORY, it should only cost 2x3x2000 = 12,000g.

That said, the actual value of it is more than that. A +1 Brilliant Energy weapon is 50,000g minimum, and Wraithstrike is MUCH better than BE because it doesn't have the pesky "nonliving matter" quote.

I'd put it somewhere in the 75k to 100k range, if I had to put a price on it at all.

[yugi24862]

You forgot that you times cost by 4 if duration is measured in rounds, so 12,000x4 = 48,000gp which is still to little.

[9mm]

yet tier one exists. so if my warblade wants to not spend a maneuver on emerald razor, y can't he have nice things?

I never thought I'd ever have to say this:

YOU'RE A WARBLADE, YOU ALREADY HAVE NICE THINGS!

[Thurbane]

Actually, it would be 2x3x2000x4 = 48,000g. The footnote says spells with a duration measured in rounds should be multiplied by 4. (Actually, you could argue that Wraithstrike isn't measured in rounds, as it is only 1 round...). Maybe a x8 multiplier, for 96,000gp.

But I'm going to chime in with the other and suggest that it's not a good idea.

Ninja'd

[Doc Roc]

yet tier one exists. so if my warblade wants to not spend a maneuver on emerald razor, y can't he have nice things?

Yet tier one exists. This is the quandary, neh?
May I suggest playing an ardent or something similar, if you lust so deeply for power?

[Moose Man]

I know, but, for a heavily optimized campaign, battling monsters that out weigh their CR (pyrohydras to name one), i dont want to insta die.
Edit: ok what about a ring of wraith strike 1/encounter?

[Doc Roc]

I know, but, for a heavily optimized campaign, battling monsters that out weigh their CR (pyrohydras to name one), i dont want to insta die.

Then I can build you a thing.

[Saint GoH]

yet tier one exists. so if my warblade wants to not spend a maneuver on emerald razor, y can't he have nice things?

Because melee can't have nice things.


In all honesty, if yer willing to pay 12k for an item of permanent Wraithstrike while the party Wizard is over there playing God, go right ahead.

However, if yer party is comprised of monks and CW Samurais perhaps you need to consider what exactly you are asking for.

[9mm]

I know, but, for a heavily optimized campaign, battling monsters that out weigh their CR (pyrohydras to name one), i dont want to insta die.
Edit: ok what about a ring of wraith strike 1/encounter?

Always on wraithstrike is almost Machine Factory level powerful. Just how optimized are we talking here?

[Sinfonian]

Edit: ok what about a ring of wraith strike 1/encounter?

What about a Diamond Mind maneuver granting ring for Emerald Razor? Same slot, good RAW-wise. So long as you have another DMind maneuver (like the save replacer), you're fine.

[faceroll]

Always on wraithstrike is almost Machine Factory level powerful. Just how optimized are we talking here?

I ran a game with a gestalt shadow pouncing assassin that had persistent wraithstrike from the incantatrix wizard//factotum. It was pretty gnarly. Really gnarly. The XP I awarded was completely ad hoc.

[Asheram]

I know, but, for a heavily optimized campaign, battling monsters that out weigh their CR (pyrohydras to name one), i dont want to insta die.
Edit: ok what about a ring of wraith strike 1/encounter?

To ask for such items... It's Possible. Most things are possible with the item creation rules, and for quite a cheap sum. But check with your DM before appearing on the board like this.

I know that if I were your DM and you showed up at the table saying "Oh, and I'm buying a ring of continous wraithstrike for my 12.000gp. It's all according to the rules.", I'd throw a book at you and yell "Out of my house, heathen!"

[Moose Man]

batman wiz, homebrew sniper who can scope you from an adjacent solar system, then use that planet's gravity to redirect the bullet at the person next to her. with a reasonable chance to hit. several halo spartans w/ full pakage Ect.
Edit: this is the comp. of my party, most of the time.

[sonofzeal]

Here is an alternative, that costs a level dip and two feats, but gets some of what you're looking for.

The level dip is PsiWar; take Psionic Strike as your bonus feat. The two feats are Deep Impact, and Instant Clarity. Can you see where this is going?

When you initiate a maneuver, expend your Psi Focus to make it a touch attack, then use Instant Clarity to regain your focus for free since you just initiated a maneuver. It's only 3/day, but does allow you to spam Touch Attacks, and doesn't even require Emerald Razor. And since your maneuvers are often your biggest attacks that you most want guaranteed hits on, the combo works out pretty nicely for you. Power Attack seals the deal and keeps you relevant at any level.

I had a Warblade with this trick in a fairly (though not ludicrously) optimized lvl 20 dual against a Druid. Of course that Druid wasn't exploiting Shapechange, and the format for the duel didn't allow for prebuffing. Their plan was good - keep distance, use summons/spells, Repel if I get close, and resort to superior Grapple checks if all else fails, all the while guarded by absolutely insane AC/saves. The Druid lost because {a} they didn't expect me to be able to reach them so quickly, {b} their attempts to force me away were foiled by Iron Heart Surge, {c} their 60+ AC couldn't stop my Deep Impact Strike, and {d} their ridiculous grapple check was foiled when I chose to attack inside the grapple at a -4 penalty, and Deep Impact'd again with some other high maneuver to finish them off.

So... don't worry about it. You're a Warblade, you have nice things.

[ZeroNumerous]

... several halo spartans w/ full pakage Ect.

What.

Elaborate, please.

[SurlySeraph]

@sonofzeal: Or use Psionic Meditation, and carry around a dorje of Hustle to make your swift action into a move action whenever you need to move.

[Saint GoH]

What.

Elaborate, please.

Giant Cyborgs picking up tanks and jumping out of spaceships 3 kilometers above Earth to land on their feet, shrug, and keep going. Basically, some pretty cool dudes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Badass).

[Thurbane]

batman wiz, homebrew sniper who can scope you from an adjacent solar system, then use that planet's gravity to redirect the bullet at the person next to her. with a reasonable chance to hit. several halo spartans w/ full pakage Ect.
Edit: this is the comp. of my party, most of the time.
If the party is already uber tier 1 powerful, then just go ahead with continuous Wraithstrike. It's broken, but no more so than chain gating Solars and other shenanigans.

[graeylin]

allow it. just remember that if your PC can buy it/craft it, then so can every NPC you come across.

so honestly, nothing changes except the little numbers on the die you roll can be smaller.

Or, allow it, and then answer this question: what would it cost to add "anti wraith strike enhancement" to my clothing?

[faceroll]

Or, allow it, and then answer this question: what would it cost to add "anti wraith strike enhancement" to my clothing?

bonus squared times 1000 gp, then multiply that value by ten for bonuses greater than 5.

:smallbiggrin:

[Moose Man]

Giant Cyborgs picking up tanks and jumping out of spaceships in space to land on their feet, shrug, and keep going. Basically, some pretty cool dudes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Badass).

Fixed it for you :smallbiggrin:

[arguskos]

Then I can build you a thing.
SAY YES TO THIS OFFER, mooseman! This is a rare opportunity! Take advantage of the Doctor's offer! You will not regret it!

[faceroll]

SAY YES TO THIS OFFER, mooseman! This is a rare opportunity! Take advantage of the Doctor's offer! You will not regret it!

Not creepy at all....

[Moose Man]

I'm used to worse, my group is composed of mostly teens.

[Endarire]

A continual wraithstrike item works best in groups which understand that normal AC loses most its merit by level 10.

I made continuous wraithstrike a +5 weapon mod. All the melee guys took it. I also upped enemy touch ACs to compensate.

I'm not sure if the group pulled ahead.

[Warlawk]

A continual wraithstrike item works best in groups which understand that normal AC loses most its merit by level 10.

I made continuous wraithstrike a +5 weapon mod. All the melee guys took it. I also upped enemy touch ACs to compensate.

I'm not sure if the group pulled ahead.

"Here's something very cool you can buy for ridiculous amounts of your personal budget"

Then tinker with the numbers under the hood so their expenditure is virtually useless without telling them.

{Scrubbed}

[Vistella]

lesser rod of persistant spell

i know theres a formula to get the price for rods based on the slotincrease but cant find it, yet im sure its less then 96000^^

[Thefurmonger]

A continual wraithstrike item works best in groups which understand that normal AC loses most its merit by level 10.

I made continuous wraithstrike a +5 weapon mod. All the melee guys took it. I also upped enemy touch ACs to compensate.

I'm not sure if the group pulled ahead.

..... So after costing the melee most of their wealth, then screwing with touch AC so the uber item of costing all my money isn't good, your suprised that they didn't pull ahead?

Was just saying "No" that hard?

Really, wow, really that's all I got.

[gomipile]

lesser rod of persistant spell

i know theres a formula to get the price for rods based on the slotincrease but cant find it, yet im sure its less then 96000^^

I don't know of any simple mathematical sequences that give 3,9,14,35 as their first four terms, so I'm not sure that there is a simple formula for it.

I'd be happy to find out what the formula is if there is one, though.

[Levithix]

A continual wraithstrike item works best in groups which understand that normal AC loses most its merit by level 10.

I made continuous wraithstrike a +5 weapon mod. All the melee guys took it. I also upped enemy touch ACs to compensate.

I'm not sure if the group pulled ahead.

I really can't see this as a problem. He probably didn't get touch AC as high as regular AC was, but in a world where this is a high end enchantment, it would make sense for NPCs to focus more on touch ac then regular AC.

[ericgrau]

Because saying no is much simpler and has the same effect without wasting everyone's time.

Though it's the spell not the item that's broken. You could still wand it and only lose a round. Worse, but worth it.

[mabriss lethe]

Wasn't there something in rules compendium that fixed swift action spells in wands so that they actually took a swift action to cast? If so, just get a wand of wraithstrike and either dip an arcane casting class or pick up that feat (forget which one) that lets you bond with a magic item and use it without UMD checks.

EDIT: The feat is called Magic Device Attunement, It's in Complete Mage. It requires 1 rank in UMD. It allows you to use a single magic item without needing a UMD roll for 24 hours after you actually succeed on a check to activate it.

EDIT#2: Rules Compendium pg 85, "Spell Trigger"

Activating a spell trigger item takes the same
amount of time as the casting time of the spell
that the item stores, but activating the item
doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. You
can’t activate a spell trigger item in the area
of a silence spell or if unable to speak.

[Thurbane]

...and with a wand chamber in your weapon, you don't even need a free hand.

[Mr. Anon Omys]

I am the closest thing that Mooseman has to a DM, and I would like to say that Mooseman is misrerpresenting a few things. First, there is a signifigant power disparity in the group, and Mooseman is on the more powerful end. He may not be the most powerful consistently, but he is always on the more powerful side. Second, he came to me and asked to have continuos wrathstrike for 8400 gp. And then dropped 3 stone golems in 3 rounds while the rest of the group stood by, using a build that made me shake my head.

[Asheram]

I am the closest thing that Mooseman has to a DM, and I would like to say that Mooseman is misrerpresenting a few things. First, there is a signifigant power disparity in the group, and Mooseman is on the more powerful end. He may not be the most powerful consistently, but he is always on the more powerful side. Second, he came to me and asked to have continuos wrathstrike for 8400 gp. And then dropped 3 stone golems in 3 rounds while the rest of the group stood by, using a build that made me shake my head.

Ah. So the initial reaction to his question still holds.

Edit:

It might be notable that Custom magic items is a slippery slope under any circumstances.
Recently, my group had to reset all their items due to this just to get some semblance of balance back in the group, as well due to the lament of our GM who couldn't find anything for us to fight that: 1. We wouldn't one-shot. 2 Wouldn't one-shot us.

[Thefurmonger]

I am the closest thing that Mooseman has to a DM, and I would like to say that Mooseman is misrerpresenting a few things. First, there is a signifigant power disparity in the group, and Mooseman is on the more powerful end. He may not be the most powerful consistently, but he is always on the more powerful side. Second, he came to me and asked to have continuos wrathstrike for 8400 gp. And then dropped 3 stone golems in 3 rounds while the rest of the group stood by, using a build that made me shake my head.

And there you go. Moral of the story? Just say no to custom items.

[Claudius Maximus]

And keep it reasonable when optimizing in general I guess.

[Coidzor]

Hmm, this idea of per encounter use item pricing intrigues me.

Has anyone played around with that idea or seen some homebrew of such an idea that looked decent?

Do we have anything other than Factotums and Martial Adepts for that kind of thing in 3.X that could be used as a reference/inspiration? Or is the closest thing having to go out of the edition and looking at 4e items?


And there you go. Moral of the story? Just say no to custom items.

Um. No? That's not the moral at all. The moral is to try to have your players playing at the same level so that there's not a huge discrepancy in power.

[senrath]

Another moral is to think long and hard before allowing any item you're not familiar with, custom or not.

[Coidzor]

Another moral is to think long and hard before allowing any item you're not familiar with, custom or not.

Actually the statement doesn't actually say that the item asked for was involved, necessarily... The build itself made the observer shake his head, as well...

So, I guess you could say another moral is that builds that cause anything to happen to observers' heads, explosions, facepalms, pain, etc. should probably be examined and then modified so that they don't do that.

...Another moral is to actually have a DM when playing D&D, come to think of it, since the story started out with the preface that there is no DM. Which is just bizarre in and of itself. :smallconfused:

[Fizban]

Hmm, this idea of per encounter use item pricing intrigues me.
Fun fact: a "continuous" item is the same price as a 5/day item. We also know that DnD assumes each "encounter" will take around 20% of the party's resources, allowing them 4 encounters with reasonable safety, or 5 leaving them dangerously vulnerable. So a "continuous" item is actually 1 charge per fight, assuming a maximum of 5 fights.

When you consider the multiplier for rounds/level spells, that means they're assuming either 4 castings per fight or that you're casting it 3 times outside of combat for each one you actually end up fighting. When you look at hour/level spells, even at CL 1 there's enough charges for 5 hours, most of the normal adventuring day, so no modifier is about right. The minute/level x2 modifier seem pretty organic, as two charges feels like enough to make sure you'll have it running while you remain in hostile territory.

In any case, that 12,000gp should get you 5 charges of Wraithstrike per day. That seems pretty okay, though honestly I don't know why you can't just use a bag full of Heartseeking Amulets. You could get 4 amulets for the same price, which would give you 12 attacks instead of 5 rounds. Personally, I think giving every melee build pounce is quite absurd, and a charge attack should be just that-one attack, for which the Heartseeking Amulet is an absolute bargain.

Also, regarding wand use: ugh, don't take that lousy wand attunement or whatever feat. Take the Forgotten Realms feat that just lets you count as a wizard or cleric for activating spell trigger items. Or better yet, dip a level of cleric with the Magic domain and activate both both types. Also gives you another domain to play with.

[dextercorvia]

SAY YES TO THIS OFFER, mooseman! This is a rare opportunity! Take advantage of the Doctor's offer! You will not regret it!

He'd have to understand it to use it. I'm not entirely convinced that if Doc built something he considered straightforward, I'd be able to play it.

Not a knock on you mooseman. Some of these guys are playing this game on a whole different level. That said, you would learn some stuff if you took him up on it.

More importantly, if he posted it here, so would I.

[Strainseir]

Persistent Wraithstrike plus persistent greater blink equals win. which can be done by level 16.

[eggs]

Persistent Wraithstrike plus persistent greater blink equals win. which can be done by level 16.
I think you arrived at the assumptions underlying the thread made just over a year ago.

Nice?

[Big Fau]

For what it's worth, a Wand of Wraithstrike is dirt-cheap and can be used as a Swift action. The wand chamber modification (Dungeonscape) lets you store the wand in your weapon and use it without needing a free hand, and the effects of Wraithstrike last for one round.

You do, however, need to hit a DC 20 UMD check.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Thread necromancy is disfavored.