Optimizing a Master Thrower.

[Loki Eremes]

hi there Playgrounders.

Here with a problem that needs to be resolved pretty fast.

I have (im not the DM though) a player which PC is basically master thrower/ Whisper Knife build. (race: halfling)

Problem here is that without dealing SA (5d6 by now) he really sucks hard at dmg dealing. So, Normally on a fight, he...does almost nothing. (and we are lvl 16)

Worst enemy? Damage Reduction.


Maybe if we tell the DM about Penetrating Strike (variant) he will let him have it, but thats just a start.

But the reason i posted this is beacause i want YOU to help me do a re-build this character to have more SA or normal dmg per hit.



Progression up to now =>

3 rogue.
4 ranger. (feats instead of spells variant)
3 Master thrower.
10 whisper knife.


----NO ToB.----

[Hyfigh]

He could possibly go with a Swift Hunter build that uses Master thrower. The favored enemies will allow the skirmish damage to apply to those enemies. chosen wisely, along with his items, he can (should be able to) deal precision damage to most creatures...

[Loki Eremes]

well my intentions on this one was recommendations about changing some classes without losing the "master thrower" flavor

[ThirdEmperor]

If DR is a problem, get several knives, of different metals. Adamantine, silver, cold steel, ect.

As for SA, I've yet to find any efficient way to use it with ranged, except get lucky in initiative.

[FMArthur]

If DR is a problem, get several knives, of different metals. Adamantine, silver, cold steel, ect.

As for SA, I've yet to find any efficient way to use it with ranged, except get lucky in initiative.

The Ninja class is almost strictly better than the Rogue class at ranged sneak attacks; the only difference between SS and SA is in fact the melee-only flanking condition for SA. The Ninja, unlike the Rogue, does have a way to provide the conditions for ranged precision damage in its Ghost Step invisibility class feature. Swordsage levels for the Cloak of Shadow maneuver also gives you a free and renewable Ghost Step, plus some good stances and Assassin's Stance for more Sneak Attack, but doesn't advance the Sneak Attack past that and would have trouble repeating its moves consecutively so Ninja levels still rounds it out nicely.

[Saint GoH]

Its all about choosing your skill tricks properly as a Master Thrower.
-Palm Throw lets you throw 2 daggers everytime you make an attack. So a standard attack action throws 2 daggers, a full attack (with BAB of say, 12) throws 6 daggers. This effectively doubles the amount of daggers he can throw.

-The next skill trick is Trip Shot. This makes it so every time you hit an enemy with a dagger you make a Dex check with a +4 vs your opponent. So every time you attack, they need to make a trip check. Plus side, you cant be tripped in return because its on a thrown weapon.

-The last trick you want is Weak Spot, which lets you hit opponents touch AC. This is fairly self explanatory.

Bonus damage is hard to come by, but I urge you to avoid Brutal Throw/Power Throw unless you are going into Bloodstorm Blade. The reason behind this is of course, splitting focus between Dex and Str. Targeteer from Dragon Mag 310 is a fighter variant that grants a bonus feat allowing you to apply your dex as bonus damage to ranged attacks. Shadowblade from ToB allows you to apply your Dex to damage with daggers while in a Shadowhand stance (Assassin's Stance for more SA?). Hit and Run Fighter ACF from Drow of the Underdark also lets you add half dex to flat-footed opponents. Last thing of note, get TWF so you can throw more daggers (especially using Palm Throw from Master Thrower).

[Loki Eremes]

If DR is a problem, get several knives, of different metals. Adamantine, silver, cold steel, ect.

As for SA, I've yet to find any efficient way to use it with ranged, except get lucky in initiative.


She has x3 +1 returning metalling Daggers.
But there are dome DRs that cant be overcome by metals or magic




The Ninja class is almost strictly better than the Rogue class at ranged sneak attacks; the only difference between SS and SA is in fact the melee-only flanking condition for SA. The Ninja, unlike the Rogue, does have a way to provide the conditions for ranged precision damage in its Ghost Step invisibility class feature. Swordsage levels for the Cloak of Shadow maneuver also gives you a free and renewable Ghost Step, plus some good stances and Assassin's Stance for more Sneak Attack, but doesn't advance the Sneak Attack past that and would have trouble repeating its moves consecutively so Ninja levels still rounds it out nicely.


OH sry, 2 things i forgot.
any recommendation have to let go ToB. NO TOB.(dont ask why)


Whisper knife lets you flank up to 30ft away at lvl 8 i think. But thats at 18th level by now.... she'll be doing almost nothing for other 2 levels?

Thats why i want to rebuild a little his PC.

[Squally!]

TWF feats, quick draw, 2 with one blow, palm throw, weak spot or trip, either or.

get a bunch of returning daggers, and toss 2 with each attack.

[Loki Eremes]

TWF feats, quick draw, 2 with one blow, palm throw, weak spot or trip, either or.

get a bunch of returning daggers, and toss 2 with each attack.


She has most of these feats.

I repeat, the problem is not the quantity, is the quality


Quote the Halfling:
"I penetrate them but they dont feel a thing"


as Sexual this sentence sounds, it reflects perfectly what happens with a DR 10/- mob or something immune to SA.

[Percival]

Since he's a halfling rogue, take the 1st level halfling rogue sub. level, in the same book as Whisperknife (Races of the Wild). It makes it so at first level, you get 2d6 sneak attack for thrown but none for melee. Thus, you'd always be 2d6 higher in thrown than melee. That's MADE for a master thrower build.

That said, I honestly think rogue/master thrower/whisperknife is probably the best thrower build you could do in terms in pure SA dice.

CAdv ninja has ghost step.
Rokugan ninja has full BAB.
Rogue has what I just mentioned.

All a matter of taste, I guess.

Also, halfling skiprocks + palm throw = win. Machine gun.

[Loki Eremes]

Since he's a halfling rogue, take the 1st level halfling rogue sub. level, in the same book as Whisperknife (Races of the Wild). It makes it so at first level, you get 2d6 sneak attack for thrown but none for melee. Thus, you'd always be 2d6 higher in thrown than melee. That's MADE for a master thrower build.

That said, I honestly think rogue/master thrower/whisperknife is probably the best thrower build you could do in terms in pure SA dice.

CAdv ninja has ghost step.
Rokugan ninja has full BAB.
Rogue has what I just mentioned.

All a matter of taste, I guess.

Also, halfling skiprocks + palm throw = win. Machine gun.


Skiprocks? whats that?

[Daftendirekt]

Skiprocks? whats that?

Races of the Wild 165. Treated as ammunition (arrows, etc) for enchanting purposes -- in other words, super cheap. You can get half a dozen Returning Skiprocks for less than a +1 weapon, IIRC.

Also, they ricochet: "If the skiprock hits its target, it ricochets toward another target of the thrower's choice. The second target must be adjacent to the original target (no more than 5 feet away.) The thrower immediately makes a second attack roll for the skiprock against the new target, with an attack bonus 2 lower than that of the initial attack."

Exotic weapons, obviously, so they cost a feat. But, holy god are they worth it for a master thrower.

Plus they do 1d6 (well, 1d4 for small size) which is better than daggers or shuriken. 15' range increment.

[Saint GoH]

Skiprocks? whats that?

Races of the Wild page 165. Basically everytime you hit with a skip rock it can richochet to another target at -2.


EDIT: Took the bloody time to look up the page and lost mah post. Dangit dude.

[Loki Eremes]

O.o skiprocks are great dudes.

moar SA and moar hits.




but still is getting difficult to deal more dmg per hit....

[Daftendirekt]

Well, as much sneak attack as physically possible is probably the best way to do it for a master thrower. Let's face, it, you're throwing small things, not greatsword. I mean, you could (Throw Anything feat, anybody?) but that would be lame... Although really cheesy, you could always just do 1 level dips in every sneak attack class:

rokugan ninja 1, ninja 1, rogue 1, etc until you get the feats/BAB needed for master thrower, and you'd have buttloads of SA dice.. Only problem is most outside rokugan ninja do not have full BAB so you'd have garbage BAB for the first few levels. But, you're at level 16 so that shouldn't be TOO problematic. Weapon Focus (skiprock) and super high dex should remedy that.

[Saint GoH]

O.o skiprocks are great dudes.

moar SA and moar hits.




but still is getting difficult to deal more dmg per hit....

Generally speaking the variants I listed are the most common ways outside of piling on more SA dice. Trade out 2 levels of his ranger for 2 Fighter, Grab Vital Aim from Dragon Mag 310 and use the Hit and Run fighter ACF from Drow of the Underdark. Suddenly you're getting Double Dex to damage on each attack. Grab Craven from Heroes of Horror to make yourself an SA machine gunner.

[Daftendirekt]

Not seeing Craven in Heroes of Horror. According to the thread listing all SA related feats, it's in Champions of Ruin.

[Loki Eremes]

Not seeing Craven in Heroes of Horror. According to the thread listing all SA related feats, it's in Champions of Ruin.


yes, he mistake it but well, not a big of a deal. Also i was letting craven aside because we try not to copy our abilities in the party and my PC already have it :smalltongue:



Well, im checking all the things you recommend until now, ^^
if you manae to remember something else, please post it. :smallbiggrin:

[Chuckthedwarf]

You pretty much NEED Thrown Power Attack, or whatever it's called, from Complete Adventurer (or Complete Warrior, I might be mistaking them)

Lets you exchange BAB for damage at 1 for 1 rate, with full BAB it's pretty reasonable damage on each throw.

And considering that by level 5 of Master Thrower most of your attacks will probably be against Touch AC - thanks to Weak Spot, hitting won't be too hard in most situations even with full Power Attack.

Of course, since the guy you're talking about is a halfling, there might be some problems.

This feat has 2 requirements. Power Attack, which requires you to have 13 str - which you might not even have as a halfling focused on sneak attack.
Brutal Throw, letting you use Str instead of Dex for thrown attacks - useless to you, but a prerequisite.
Thrown Power Attack, no comment here.

It's 3 feats, and only one actually beneficial to you in this situation.

So you're probably better off getting wands of Gravestrike/ Golemstrike or whatever the spells are called that let you sneak attack undead/ constructs... That'll help you against many sneak attack immune creatures, as for DR - you'll have to rely on weapons made from whatever material benefits you the most in the situation, it's not like you aren't already carrying a hundred knives with you =-p

[Daftendirekt]

Called simply Power Throw, and yeah, Brutal Throw's requirement to get it is horrible for this build -- I see it as being made for a Hulking Hurler. Maybe you can get your DM to allow Power Throw without Brutal Throw, as a halfling would have little to no use for it.

The Hit and Run variant mentioned sounds pretty solid. Just replace the Ranger levels with Fighter, or even just the 1st level to get that class feature (It replaces heavy armor/tower shield proficiency, and also prevents you from ever getting that from a class -- have to take feats. Hardly a problem for a master thrower, who should be wearing light armor)

EDIT: Just to throw it in here, quoted text for Hit and Run: "You gain a +2 bonus on initiative checks. In addition, when attacking a flat-footed opponent within 30 feet, you can add your Dexterity bonus (if any) as a competence bonus on weapon damage rolls."

[Dvandemon]

There are two (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Anything_Goes_Long_(3.5e_Feat)) things (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/ShadowDagger_Bracer_(3.5e_Equipment)) relevant to this

[Waker]

Sense Weakness is one thing to help overcome DR. It's in Draconomicon, requires Int 13, Combat Expertise and Weapon Focus. The feat allows you to ignore 5 points of DR or Hardness.
Another useful feat is Bow Feint from Dragon 350. Requires Int 13 and Point Blank Shot. Allows you to feint at a range of up to 30ft.

[Rickshaw]

don't you have to be a drow to take the 1rst lvl fighter substitution Hit and Run? the DM I'm playing with currently ruled thus...

[Abemad]

How about taking 5 levels of master thrower? that way you can get palm throw, sneaky shot, and weak shot (two daggers per attack, that hits touch ac - dex, that deals sneak attack)...

All in all, I would make a ninja* 5 / master thrower 5 / whisperknife 10

*you can use rogue instead of ninja, but if you do, you should trade evasion for something else (since master thrower also gives you evasion...)

[minchazo]

I tried building something like this once. My goal was to increase damage w/o using SA :)

The ways I came up with were:

Weapon Specialization
Lady's Gambit (DR317 p.82) Take 2x Char lvl dmg to do Char lvl dmg to all attacks for one round
Vital Aim (Targetteer DR310 p38)Add Dex to Dmg -This doesn't work against undead/not crittable foes. It also won't work with MT's Weak Spot.
Fighter Substitution "Hit & Run" from "Drow of the Underdark" Add Dex to Dmg if flat footed
Power Throw (CAdv) Power attack w/Thrown weapons
Ranged Weapon Mastery (PH2 p82) +2 Dmg and +20' range increment

The quickest way to get up to your Character level of damage on a throw weapon is Lady's Gambit or Power Throw, but each costs 3 feats. "Hit and Run" and "Vital Aim" won't work in all situations.

You can also cast 'Flame Arrow' on your skiprocks to get a quick 1d6 extra fire damage. Or get an item to cast GMW multiple times a day. My thought experiment with MT took Targetteer 14/MT 5/Exotic Weapons Master 1 (EWM was to avoid AoO while throwing skiprocks in melee). It let him pick up the TWF feats as well as *all* the above, plus Improved Precise Shot, Rapid Shot. At 20th level, any thrown skiprocks would do at least 44 + 1d6 damage.

[Fearan]

May i suggest gloves from Manticore set (MiC)? The ones, that create a +1 force javeline as a free action. If your DM is willing, refluff it for daggers for extra awesome

[Douglas]

A) Get Power Throw. It's Power Attack for ranged weapons.
B) Take Master Thrower all the way to 5 and get the trick that makes your throws touch attacks. That way you can do maximum Power Throw and still hit.

[Telonius]

How about Scout5/Ranger2/Master Thrower3/WhisperknifeX, and beg the DM to turn "Sneak" into "next level of Skirmish progression?" If he'll allow that, you can cut out of Whisperknife after 6 or so without losing much. Use the last four levels on something with full BAB (Ranger, maybe).

Or, you could just forego Whisperknife entirely. Scout3->Ranger3->/Master Thrower3->RangerX, with Swift Hunter. The most important things you're getting from Whisperknife are Full BAB and some sneak attack progression; you'd also get this from Ranger, plus a better Fort save. As a Scout, you won't need Close Defense since your bonus damage is good from 30 feet out. Favored enemies can help out slightly with the damage reduction problem. The rest of the Whisperknife's abilities (except Poison use, which can be gotten fairly easily outside of Whisperknife) seem pretty situational to me.

[Meleemancer]

Do you think that your DM would allow the Halfling Rock Skipping Champion? http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172910 (the sixth post) Combined with Master thrower and Sling of the Dire Wind from Weapons of Legacy, you could make your attacks as touch attacks, have 9 attacks per round at 12 BAB, and have each of those attacks deal 3d6+3 base damage. At that point, SA is entirely optional, possibly even a hindrance due to the lack of BAB in SA classes other than Rokugan Ninja.

EDIT

He wouldn't have that many attacks in a round. I was thinking back to old 3.0. But you might be able to get some sort of quick reload function for a sling with a feat or magic.

[Mrgone]

swap rogue for scout pick up the swift hunter feat so your ranger levels and scout levels stack for purposes of skirmish and favored enemy. with the right favored enemy selection you can do skirmish damage to creatures that would normaly be immune to presission based damage. with your ranger and scout levels stacking for skirmish you should pick up a few more d6 damage per throw that would help overcome dr and you'll pick up some extra ac to boot along with what ever else comes with scout.

[Tokuhara]

Just my 2c:

Half-Ogre Goliath Warblade 5/Bloodstorm Blade 10/Master Thrower 3

Get a Heavy (MoF) Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer of "appropriate size", and are now rocking a "Gargantuan" weapon with a x4 crit thrown at a distance.

[Soranar]

No TOB

humm

Sneak attack and ranged attacks: the problem is that nothing bypasses crit immunity like penetrating strike for ranged attacks, meaning that piling on an insane amount of sneak attack damage won't do much of anything in high level games since everything is immune to crits at that point

someone already mentioned swift hunter, I'd second that option, it's a really strong build with the right favored enemies. You should pick them in order to bypass immunity to crits to pick undead, constructs and arcanists (ACF for rangers). Arcanist covers anything that cast spells (basically it becomes a dragon + favored enemy) and, arguably, undead and constructs are just very common

next in line should probably be elementals

plant and oozes you can ignore until you're out of interesting choices

go the TWF route with ranger

your problem becomes gaining a way to move and attack, there are many options but travel devotion is very reliable for this

Other option

Don't be a whispergnome (badly suited to a master thrower build since being small gives you a penalty to trip)

Either play a human with able learner or an Aerenal elf with Aereni focus : Iaijutsu focus

Since Iaijutsu focus works with thrown daggers (you draw them for every attack) all you need is a way to make your opponents flat footed

A strong build for this is :

human + able learner

Factotum x / Master thrower 1 / Marshal 1

you get your DEX to trip, INT to trip, CHA to trip

Iaijutsu focus works against anything that's flatfooted

There's a ton of ways to make something flatfooted

The elf option (with aereni focus for Iaijutsu focus)

Fighter 4/ master thrower 5/whatever you want

with palm throw it fighter feats can be worth it

weapon specialization + ranged weapon specialization can give you +3 to hit , +4 to damage and an increase in range (for 3 feats)

the joke is the damage is not precision damage so it should affect all the elements of a volley, meaning palm throw doubles your projectiles and they all get +4 to damage. But that's a DM call so it's up to you

hit and run tactics ACF gives you DEX to damage vs flat footed opponents
master thrower 5 gives you ranged touch attacks

Iaijutsu focus gives you a fairly good damage bonus that scales

Finally the knowledge devotion feat can also add some damage to all your attacks

[Nettlekid]

This probably won't fly, but I love the idea of it as soon as I read the Whisperknife's 3rd level ability. The one that lets you move and your returning weapon comes back to you anyway? Wear Gloves of Taarnahm the Vigilant (look at Bunko's Bargain Basement, they're from Players Guide to Faerun) to make all weapons count as Throwing and Returning. Now, if that works with improvised weapons, great. If not, maybe grab a level in Drunken Master to allow you to use improvised weapons basically as regular weapons? Give a tree a shove, then run away (using your halfling nimbleness to tumble through the legs of the enemy) and watch with amusement as the tree loyally follows you, plowing through all in its path. I don't think you'll have to worry about damage when you have magic trees hurtling at the enemy at all times.

[Togo]

Get three levels of swashbuckler, to add your int to your damage (daggers are finessable weapons).
Get the targeteer (DR310 p38) ability vital aim to add dex to your damage
Get point blank shot (and rapid shot)
Ask your DM for an upgrade on the guantlet of infinite blades(MIC), allowing you to produce magical daggers as a free action (like the gloves of the manticore in the same book). The swift activation refers to spending charges, not producing knives.
Get several 3rd eye insights (MIC), and use all the charges each combat, swapping them out between combats.
If you can, get weapon specialisation and ranged weapon specialisation.
If you can, get levels in the Chameleon prestige class, and take the fighter benefits, giving you bonuses to damage.
If you can, and the DM is favourable, two levels in Justicar might work wonders.

Make sure your favoured enemy bonuses are on creatures that have DR, like elementals.

With rapid shot, two weapon fighting and palm throw, you should be looking at 10-14 attacks, which means if you're doing a small amount of sneak attack damage you should be at least hurting DR10 creatures. Is it perhaps the non-sneakable monsters that are the problem?

The basic problem you have is that you're trying to combine master thrower with sneak attack, which only works in a very limited set of circumstances against certain monsters. Master thrower works better with fighter, ranger or bard - classes that do bonus damage per attack.

[socball22]

Well I'm sorry to bring this up but I've broken throwing in D&D

1st rogue
2nd rogue
3rd rogue
4th scout
5th scout
6th scout
7th master thrower
8th master thrower
9th master thrower
10th master thrower
11th master thrower*
12th whisperknife
13th whisperknife
14th whisperknife
15th rogue
16th rogue
17th rogue
18th rogue
19th rogue
20th rogue

*At this point you're hitting a touch AC and you need to hit a flat footed opponent to get SA. Therefore you get combat expertise and improved feint.
Now this is the point where your DM might not let you do this.
The DMG states that a 1st level spell with unlimited length custom item costs 2k. If duration is measured in rounds then the price is quadrupled.
For this build that's fair.
Spell Compendium: Insightful Feint.
Now you can feint as a free action before you touch him. Ever.
Weak Spot: Touch AC, Free action feints: Dex denied.
Now that the tarrasque has a 10 AC you're free to go with things like TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Power Throw, Combat Expertise anything that reduces AB because you're hitting 10 AC. You don't need AB.
TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Palm Throw, Two with one Blow.
8 attacks for two people adjacent. All with high SA & Skirmish.

[TentacleSurpris]

May i suggest gloves from Manticore set (MiC)? The ones, that create a +1 force javeline as a free action. If your DM is willing, refluff it for daggers for extra awesome

Check with your DM on the Gloves of Endless Javelins. Ask him if the clause that says the javelins are made out of Force means that they bypass all forms of DR.