[PF]Optimizing an Archer Gish

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Greetings GitP.

I'm joining a Pathfinder game, and I've decided I'd like to give archery a try. But I'd like to be a gish, as they already have a ranger archer and a rogue archer - I figure adding spells will sufficiently differentiate me from my fellows. I'm being allowed the Otherworldly feat (for Outsider Type, and therefore Martial Weapon Proficiency) which necessitates being an Elf. Other than that though, I'm limited to Pathfinder sources.

I'd like to use Archery as my primary method of dealing damage, rather than spells, which will be used for buffing/battlefield control. I figure I'll start battles with a little BC and then start sniping.

The build I'm looking at is Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 5/Arcane Archer 8/Eldritch Knight 2. I'm not sure this is the best way to achieve a sniper type archer, so if you have any suggestions, I'd appreciate them.

What sort of feats should I pick up? I know I'll need Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Weapon Focus (Longbow), and Deadly Aim of course, but what else should I look at picking up? I've got 11 general/combat feats available, though three of them are already taken on prereqs. In addition, I've got one Metamagic or Item Crafting feat - I was thinking Extend Spell, to make my buffs last longer.

My attributes are 16, 17, 14, 15, 15, 15 before racial mods.

So, any suggestions on build/feats/arcane school?

[Doc Roc]

Books open are...?

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Other than that though, I'm limited to Pathfinder sources.

Just Paizo published Pathfinder sources.

[Doc Roc]

Just Paizo published Pathfinder sources.

Ugh, that moves it largely outside my expertise. I really should study up on PF.

[herrhauptmann]

Why does your group have so many archers?
If it were possible, I'd suggest swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327). 6/10 casting, and a lot of nice little things that combine to make Haste the best spell in your repertoire. Such as duplicating timestop with a 6th level spell at level 16.

But, like you said, pathfinder sources only. Perhaps find an archer gish handbook and adapt it for pathfinder rules?

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Ugh, that moves it largely outside my expertise. I really should study up on PF.

Well, you could browse the SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com)!

Edit:

Why does your group have so many archers?
I dunno, but we do, so I figure adding one more won't hurt too bad.


But, like you said, pathfinder sources only. Perhaps find an archer gish handbook and adapt it for pathfinder rules?
I looked on BG, didn't find one (at least, not for Wizards, probably because the Arcane Archer in 3.5 had very limited uses).

Further Edit:
I may be able to grab the Half-Celestial Template, which would obviate me from picking up Otherworldly and therefore being an Elf (the latest errata on Arcane Archer allows any race, or so I'm told) - would a Half-Celestial Human be better than an Elf in this situation?

[ericgrau]

Rapid shot is essential, if PF still has it. I'd make it your 2nd or 3rd feat and then only because PBS is a pre-req. At higher levels improved precise shot is awesome-sauce.

Good buffs including heroism, flame arrow, quickened true strike, false life, haste (but get boots of speed at high levels) and see invisibility.

For battlefield control all the usual spells should work, though I'd stray away from fog types and more towards wall types or area debuffs when possible. Repulsion and reverse gravity are especially good in your situation, as are area debuffs, as they leave your targets open. But even with walls you can focus on the remaining un-walled foes and nothing says "You're out of the fight, no save, kill ya later kkthxbai" quite like a wall of force.

Don't forget to carry arrows of every metal type. At higher levels you can get trickier things like ghost touch arrows for incorporeal, bane arrows, etc. You put the specialty buffs on the arrows so you can swap them easily. An efficient quiver and bracers of lesser archery are nice to have too.

If you plan on going epic I'd take arcane archer all the way to 10 simply because epic arcane archer gets pretty ridiculous. Your enhancement bonus and BAB continue past what is possible via any buffs short of specially made epic spells (and who ever researches epic magic weapon?). Hail of arrows against a small army is just icing.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Rapid shot is essential, if PF still has it. I'd make it your 2nd or 3rd feat and then only because PBS is a pre-req. At higher levels improved precise shot is awesome-sauce.

Good buffs including heroism, flame arrow, quickened true strike, false life, haste (but get boots of speed at high levels) and see invisibility.

For battlefield control all the usual spells should work, though I'd stray away from fog types and more towards wall types or area debuffs when possible. Repulsion and reverse gravity are especially good in your situation, as are area debuffs, as they leave your targets open. But even with walls you can focus on the remaining un-walled foes and nothing says "You're out of the fight, no save, kill ya later kkthxbai" quite like a wall of force.

Don't forget to carry arrows of every metal type. At higher levels you can get trickier things like ghost touch arrows for incorporeal, bane arrows, etc. You put the specialty buffs on the arrows so you can swap them easily. An efficient quiver and bracers of lesser archery are nice to have too.

I'll make sure to pick up Rapid Shot. The DM may allow me a Splitting Force Bow (eventually, natch) so I don't really have to worry about having specific arrows to overcome DR.

I'm still not sure what school to specialize in, since I can't be an Elven Generalist, and since the generalist Wizard's class features aren't great compared to say, the Diviner's.

[Reynard]

IRRC, a Psionic classs could make a good dip, as Pathfinder Psionic Shot is much, much better now.

[Joshinthemosh]

So I realize this isn't exactly what you have there but this could help you out. https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AcNyxDTKvAmqZGRtZzhzdjZfNWM0cTliaGdw&hl=en

It's Treantmonk's Guide to Rangers in Pathfinder. Specifically the Archer section. Arcane Archer is actually pretty good these days in Pathfinder. A Ranger X/Wizard X/Arcane Archer X. Helps with those pesky marital weapon requirements. And the whole BAB and bonus feats help too. Also I don't k ow if anyone's really looked at it but the Magus Playtests(or if your group will allow classes still in playtest) but that might make a kinda cool Archer gish

[ericgrau]

I'm still not sure what school to specialize in, since I can't be an Elven Generalist, and since the generalist Wizard's class features aren't great compared to say, the Diviner's.
Transmutation is probably the best choice for the buff spells as you'll be casting a ton of those and only 1 or 2 control spells per combat. Conjuration is your main source of control. Evocation has control and contingency, another epic "buff". At high levels transmutation also has some control. Illusions are handy especially for range concealment but control is better for this. Necromancy has false life and some no save single target debuffs great for LBEGs/BBEGs. Walling him away is a bit pointless unless he has significant minions, and even then after you kill those the LBEG/BBEG is still a big threat. And he passes his saves against area debuffs and SoDs. Abjuration has some ok defensive buffs like protection from energy and magic circle against evil, but OTOH level 3 is already devoted to your offensive buffs. And repulsion is abjuration. Enchantment is an easy choice to ban then I'd make the 2nd school illusion. Maybe necromancy or abjuration if you like illusions. If level 5+ spells seem too far away for the campaign to reach them I might ban evocation, though resilient sphere (level 4) and tiny hut (level 3) aren't bad.

[mercrutio]

Hey, I just check the most recent errata for the Core Rulebook, and there's no mention of the Arcane Archer. In other words, you need Elven Blood (Elf or Half-Elf).

I've been playing around with the Magus (I've been GMing Pathfinder for about 8 months now), and I really would not recommend it as it stands. Paizo has promised good things about the final release in Ultimate Magic, but the playtest version is way underpowered.

I'm assuming you can use the APG, if so I'd highly recommend the Foresight Focused School (under the Divination School) for a Wizard. Foretell is just awesome.

Btw, Reynard, you realize that there is nothing out by Paizo for Psionics yet, right?

On a final note, should you ever get there, Arcane Archer's capstone ability is to be able to make a Death Arrow. These are unbelievably awesome. Go all the way with the AA, for sure.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Reynard: Unfortunately, there are no official Pathfinder Psionics rules at this time. There are Pathfinder compatible rules, from Dreamscarred Press, but as they are third party they are not available to us.

Joshinthemosh: I'd look at the Magus, but I'm after 9th level spells in addition to archery skills. Thanks for the link though!

ericgrau: I was thinking either Transmutation or Divination as my specialist school, but couldn't decide between them. I think you're right though, Transmutation has the best buffs, and pretty good school powers to boot.

mercutio: I was sure that the racial requirement for Arcane Archer had been removed, perhaps this was in an earlier errata? Even so, the jury is still out on whether or not I could be a Half-Celestial Human anyway, so it may be a non-issue.

I'm not seeing what's so great about Foretell, honestly, and I'm only getting five levels of Wizard anyway, so I wouldn't have access to it in any case.

Finally, I'm not sure that a Slaying Arrow is that great - too many high level beasties are outright immune to death effects. And it would prevent me getting ninth level spells, which I put as higher priority.

***

Ok, so I'm looking at an Elf Transmuter 5/(Andrew)Eldritch Knight 5/Arcane Archer 8/EK 2. For feats, I'm looking at Otherworldly, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Extend Spell, Weapon Focus (Longbow), Deadly Aim, and Rapid Shot - what else should I pick up? I've got five left.

[Akal Saris]

With the extra feats, you might grab Improved Precise Shot, Quicken Spell, Improved Initiative, and not worry about the last 2 feats until you get there.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Ok, that seems like solid advice. Still, any suggestions for the last two?

Oh, and I just found out that metamagic feats are going to work a little differently - apparently they are free to use as long as the caster is capable of casting a spell of the modified level, i.e. casting a quickened fifth level spell when I can cast ninth level spells, but from a fifth level slot rather than a ninth. So should I pick up more metamagic feats?

[ericgrau]

You may want still spell to cast in armor, unless you already get a way around that? I usually get a lesser rod of extend spell for buffs and now... I probably still would. I mean 3,000 gp vs. a feat. Widen spell could be nice for walls and area debuffs... but quickening ones one level lower and firing arrows in the same turn is probably better. Free heighten of everything could get nuts if you pick spells with saves. Ya I'd go for heighten at least, dunno about the rest.

Spells that already have no somatic component, yoinked from my notes, are below. Mostly enchantments and teleportation unfortunately.

Level 0: Flare, Light
Level 1: Feather Fall, Hold Portal, True Strike, Ventriloquism
Level 2: Blindness/Deafness, Blur, Knock
Level 3: Displacement, Tongues, Suggestion
Level 4: Dimension Door, Lesser Geas, Shout
Level 5: Contact Other Plane, Teleport
Level 6: Geas, Mass Suggestion
Level 7: Phase Door, Power Word Blind, Teleport Object, Greater Teleport
Level 8: Mass Charm Monster, Irresistible Dance, Power Word Stun
Level 9: Mage's Disjunction, Power Word Kill, Prismatic Sphere, Teleportation Circle, Time Stop, Wail of the Banshee, Wish

[Kalaska'Agathas]

You may want still spell to cast in armor, unless you already get a way around that? I usually get a lesser rod of extend spell for buffs and now... I probably still would. I mean 3,000 gp vs. a feat. Widen spell could be nice for walls and area debuffs... but quickening ones one level lower and firing arrows in the same turn is probably better. Free heighten of everything could get nuts if you pick spells with saves. Ya I'd go for heighten at least, dunno about the rest.

Spells that already have no somatic component, yoinked from my notes, are below. Mostly enchantments and teleportation unfortunately.

Level 0: Flare, Light
Level 1: Feather Fall, Hold Portal, True Strike, Ventriloquism
Level 2: Blindness/Deafness, Blur, Knock
Level 3: Displacement, Tongues, Suggestion
Level 4: Dimension Door, Lesser Geas, Shout
Level 5: Contact Other Plane, Teleport
Level 6: Geas, Mass Suggestion
Level 7: Phase Door, Power Word Blind, Teleport Object, Greater Teleport
Level 8: Mass Charm Monster, Irresistible Dance, Power Word Stun
Level 9: Mage's Disjunction, Power Word Kill, Prismatic Sphere, Teleportation Circle, Time Stop, Wail of the Banshee, Wish


Do Bracers of Armor count? 'Cause they're on my list, for when I get high enough level that is. The trouble I have with the "Cast in Armor" feats in Pathfinder is that they require the use of my Swift Action. That said, I'm seriously considering Arcane Strike, if it stacks with the bonus given by your weapon already (or class feature in my case).

We're using a variation on Endarire's metamagic system (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10382.0), so heighten spell is no longer a feat, rather, if you cast a spell in a slot of a given level, it counts as that level for Save DC and all that jazz.

Also, that's an excellent little list, thank you.

[ericgrau]

Bracers of armor don't cause spell failure. You could also grab a monk's belt for wis to AC at very high levels.

[BobVosh]

I might suggest a paladin type. Smite works with bows and is ever so good.

That said eldritch knight straight is better than AA. Especially if you are a base wizard so you can upgrade your bow with crafting if it is your bonded item.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I might suggest a paladin type. Smite works with bows and is ever so good.

That said eldritch knight straight is better than AA. Especially if you are a base wizard so you can upgrade your bow with crafting if it is your bonded item.

I'd rather go Wizard than Pally, honestly.

Why is EK better than AA, for an Archer type? I'd rather go with a familiar than a bonded item - I didn't think you could get a composite bow at first level, though I guess you could. Still, I'd rather have my Raven companion, as they are very useful for scouting, relaying messages, etc.

I really am stumped as to why you think straight EK is better than AA in this case - Imbue Arrow grants some very interesting tactical advantages (say, hitting a magic heavy target with a targeted AMF, for example). EK gives me a higher CL, but since I'm not focusing on SoDs and I'm still getting nines, I don't really see how the class featureless EK benefits me over AA.

[herrhauptmann]

Take Item Familiar. It's a different method of 'bonding' to a weapon. It has some risks of course, but by higher levels you'll be noticeably higher level than the rest of the party.
I usually just use it for the XP boost, and maybe the skill boost, but as a caster you can do a lot with it.

[true_shinken]

Take Item Familiar. It's a different method of 'bonding' to a weapon.
It's also highly cheesy and not Pathfinder.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Take Item Familiar. It's a different method of 'bonding' to a weapon. It has some risks of course, but by higher levels you'll be noticeably higher level than the rest of the party.
I usually just use it for the XP boost, and maybe the skill boost, but as a caster you can do a lot with it.

As True_Shinken points out, it's not Pathfinder and therefore unavailable.

[PinkysBrain]

Inquisitor works better as a caster archer.

As for feats, arcane strike is a given ... for the rest all the usual archery feats, although you can probably hold off a bit on deadly aim (because your attack bonus lags).

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Inquisitor works better as a caster archer.

As for feats, arcane strike is a given ... for the rest all the usual archery feats, although you can probably hold off a bit on deadly aim (because your attack bonus lags).

Yeah, I think I might swap Deadly Aim for Arcane Strike, but of course my BAB with this build comes out to 17, which is actually pretty good for a Gish.

[Psyren]

Reynard: Unfortunately, there are no official Pathfinder Psionics rules at this time. There are Pathfinder compatible rules, from Dreamscarred Press, but as they are third party they are not available to us.

They're technically third-party but also sold through Paizo's site.

Anyhoo, PF Arcane Archer is indeed great, but as an alternative I'd recommend a Zen Archer Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk#TOC-Zen-Archer) multiclassed with Cleric. 3 levels of ZA monk gets you proficiency with 4 types of bow, Wis to attack, Wis to AC, Flurry of Bows, any two of PBS/Precise Shot/Rapid Shot, Point Blank Mastery and Weapon Focus with the bow of your choice. Then you just pile Cleric casting on from there.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

They're technically third-party but also sold through Paizo's site.

Anyhoo, PF Arcane Archer is indeed great, but as an alternative I'd recommend a Zen Archer Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk#TOC-Zen-Archer) multiclassed with Cleric. 3 levels of ZA monk gets you proficiency with 4 types of bow, Wis to attack, Wis to AC, Flurry of Bows, any two of PBS/Precise Shot/Rapid Shot, Point Blank Mastery and Weapon Focus with the bow of your choice. Then you just pile Cleric casting on from there.

They are indeed, but remain third-party.

I'd go with a Zen Archer Monk/Cleric, but we've already got a Cleric and I'd rather not go stepping on anyone's toes. Also, Clerics don't get the BC stuff I'm after.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Ok, so apart from AMF, what are some good spells to Imbue?

[tyckspoon]

Almost anything that is normally point-blank centered or sometimes Short range, really. Obscuring Mist is a good example- normally it's just annoying, because it's centered on you. So if you want to make good use of it you really need alternate senses. But Imbue it, and you can fling around a mass AoE vision-breaker. Don't wanna get shot up by those archers? Put a mist between the two of you. Charger worrying you? Mist- he can't charge through obscured sight. It's like the fun of wall spells, but it's only a 1st level slot.