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pendell
2011-02-18, 06:46 PM
Spawned from this discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10402839#post10402839) in the main OOTS forum.

Imagine that you are a 14th-level Aristocrat like Lord Shojo. Imagine that there is an evil adventuring party -- say, of around level 14 -- that wants to scry and die in, kill you, and take over the kingdom for themselves.

How do you protect yourself, given you have no useful combat skills?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

JaronK
2011-02-18, 07:00 PM
The Inscriptions of Falsehood cost 45500gp, but are a magic effect on a room that makes it so it's impossible to detect people inside, even with normal vision. Attempts to scry the area see a programmed image that you can resist (DC 22) but only if there's reason to disbelieve the image.

Or for 14kgp, there's the inscriptions of Privacy, which auomatically warns you if you're being remotely observed... and there's a chance that you see who was looking.

And for 60kgp, you can have a Secure Chamber. Everyone in the room gets Mindblank... which helps quite a bit. It even says that most throne rooms have this effect.

All three are in Stronghold Builder's Guide. Consider the Landlord feat to help afford this.

Another option... "Lord Shojo" is not his real name. In fact, for this exact purpose he had a slave (or servant, or whatever) given the name "Lord Shojo" who wears the appropriate robes and is disguised to look like him. This is a royal secret, and has been done for the true leader for centuries. As a result, any magical scrying on "Lord Shojo" actually gets the slave, who reasonably looks the part (though if you're actually looking at the real king at the time, you'd notice they're in totally different areas doing different things at the time). The slave lives a very sheltered life in an enclosed (and very trapped) section of the castle. If he's suddenly killed, the real kind can be put into some sort of hiding, and his mages will attempt to figure out the method (and thus identify the abilities of the culprit). If people teleport in to attack him, he's got lots of traps to help and alarms will be raised.

JaronK

ericgrau
2011-02-18, 07:11 PM
The DMG mentions specifically that the DM should expect villains to prepare for such tactics. There are numerous spells that block divinations and teleportation. If the BBEG can't cast them himself he can hire someone to do so or get magic items (especially the wondrous ones).

Yukitsu
2011-02-18, 07:14 PM
Some lead.

Grelna the Blue
2011-02-18, 07:14 PM
I could swear I remember seeing some spells somewhere that damage someone scrying upon you. However, it's a lot easier than that. Have him wear an Amulet of Proof Against Detection and Location. The standard version is not that hard to beat (caster level check DC 19), but that doesn't mean one couldn't be made that was better.

Doc Roc
2011-02-18, 07:17 PM
So, basically, if an elemental weird wants to find you, it will. They're also 17th level sorcerers. This probably isn't within the realm of your concern.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-02-18, 07:18 PM
Dimension Lock. Talk to the hand.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-02-18, 07:44 PM
Hallow or Unhallow are useful, depending on what spells you attach to them.

The Stronghold Builder's Guidebook has rules on creating Wondrous Architecture, removable items such as magical statues or rugs which project an effect cost spell level x caster level x 1000 gp. Immovable effects which are permanently built into an area of the stronghold cost half as much. An immobile Dimensional Lock effect would cost 60,000 gp, for example. Alternatively, just having a 15th level caster on hand who prepares and casts it every day can keep fifteen 20 ft. radius Dimensional Lock effects in your castle. That should be more than sufficient to keep out any uninvited teleportation. He could even use a Greater Metamagic Rod of Widen to cover twice as much area.

The Draconomicon has several such items called Lair Wards, each projects a magical effect into the area around it. Most can affect about 400 square feet of space, or a 20 ft. square room. The Windstorm's Eye, Hurricane's Eye, and Tornado's Eye would protect from Wind Walk and any other form of flight or aerial assault, though it would take quite a few to keep the entire castle surrounded by such an effect. There's the Missing Chamber, Inscriptions of Vacancy, and Secure Cavern to offer varying degrees of protection from scrying from weak to absolute, and Inscriptions of Privacy will alert any occupants of any scrying attempts and possibly even reveal the scryer.

The nobleman himself could simply wear a Hat of Anonymity, possibly crafted at a higher caster level for a higher DC, to guard himself against any divination attempts. A Cowl of Warding from Magic of Faerun gives continual Mind Blank, Freedom of Movement, and Spell Turning effects, though it's extremely expensive. He could purchase Contingent spell effects, as per the Craft Contingent Spell feat in Complete Arcane. Such effects could include Greater Teleporting him to a predetermined safe room or even a highly warded panic room of sorts upon certain conditions being met. Those conditions could be as simple as fearing for his life due to a perceived opponent appearing out of nowhere, an instant natural reaction to an assassin leaping from the shadows or murderous adventurers teleporting in, thus thwarting their attack.

Other tricks include lead-lined walls, a closed off room containing a Basilisk (which can petrify ethereal creatures), and Explosive Runes cast with Invisible Spell so only those who can see invisible will risk triggering them.

Yahzi
2011-02-18, 07:46 PM
1. Forbiddance

"Forbiddance seals an area against all planar travel into or within it." 6th level, 60 ft cube per level. Costs 1,500 gp per 60 ft cube, but it is permanent. So over time you can block very large areas from teleportation. Whole castles, even.

And the damage effect means opposite-aligned underlings and henchmen can't even enter your castle by normal means!

Given an 11th lvl caster, you can do about 480 sq ft of building (with 10 ft tall ceilings) per casting, resulting in the low, low cost of 33.8 gp per foot. (Premium saltillo tile extra)

I vote this most underrated defensive spell ever.


2. Mage's Private Sanctum

"Divination (scrying) spells cannot perceive anything within the area." 5th level, 30 ft. cube per level, cost is free but duration is 24 hours. So, that's a spell slot gone every day to protect your work-room.

At 13th level it can be permancied for 2,500 gp, which would give you about a 180 ft square room (again with 10 ft ceilings), for only 13.3 gp a foot. What a deal!


3. Commune / Contact Other Planes

Once a week ask, "Am I going to be attacked in the next week?" If the answer is yes, then you start narrowing it down. "In the first half of the week?," etc. using the old divine bi-section questioning algorithm. Nine questions gets you from a week down to a six-minute window. Fifteen questions gets you down to the exact round in which the attack will come.

This means your target is buffed and waiting for you when you show up. Since Commune questions usually come in packs of 9, they probably used a few left-overs to get a basic idea of the attackers: strong magic or not, invisible, favors poison/fire/cheese, etc., so their buffs will even be relatively appropriate.

You only need 24 questions to go from a year to the exact round. What BBEG can't afford 3 communes a year? (Or 2 if he is 12th level!)

JaronK
2011-02-18, 07:58 PM
3. Commune / Contact Other Planes

Once a week ask, "Am I going to be attacked in the next week?" If the answer is yes, then you start narrowing it down. "In the first half of the week?," etc. using the old divine bi-section questioning algorithm. Nine questions gets you from a week down to a six-minute window. Fifteen questions gets you down to the exact round in which the attack will come.

This means your target is buffed and waiting for you when you show up. Since Commune questions usually come in packs of 9, they probably used a few left-overs to get a basic idea of the attackers: strong magic or not, invisible, favors poison/fire/cheese, etc., so their buffs will even be relatively appropriate.

You only need 24 questions to go from a year to the exact round. What BBEG can't afford 3 communes a year? (Or 2 if he is 12th level!)

Or, the old Binary Contact trick: "If a sum starts at 0, and is increased by 1 if I'll be attacked in the next week, and is increased by 2 if the first attack (if it occurs) will take place in the first half of the week, and is increased by 4 if the first attack will take place in either the first quarter or the week or the third quarter of the week, and is increased by 8 if the first attack will occur in the first eighth, third eighth, fifth eighth, or seventh eighth, what is the value of the sum?"

If you get an even number (usually 0) you're safe for the week. If the number was 7, you're going to be attacked in the second eighth of the week (so, roughly tomorrow). Every possible value (0-15) tells you a specific time slot. You can actually get as specific as you want with this question, right down to the round it will occur, and also add other details like the type of attack.

Of course, this is an extremely broken trick in general.

JaronK

SPoD
2011-02-18, 08:33 PM
3. Commune / Contact Other Planes

Once a week ask, "Am I going to be attacked in the next week?" If the answer is yes, then you start narrowing it down. "In the first half of the week?," etc. using the old divine bi-section questioning algorithm. Nine questions gets you from a week down to a six-minute window. Fifteen questions gets you down to the exact round in which the attack will come.

This means your target is buffed and waiting for you when you show up. Since Commune questions usually come in packs of 9, they probably used a few left-overs to get a basic idea of the attackers: strong magic or not, invisible, favors poison/fire/cheese, etc., so their buffs will even be relatively appropriate.

You only need 24 questions to go from a year to the exact round. What BBEG can't afford 3 communes a year? (Or 2 if he is 12th level!)

Commune and Contact Other Plane can't determine exact events in the future, because deities are not omniscient. Even a Greater Deity with a divine rank of 20 can only sense when and where an event occurs, and only 20 weeks in the future. They have no sensory information about the future, and so cannot give details about armament, etc.

And that's assuming you contacted a Greater Deity, not a Lesser or Intermediate one, and that he WANTS you to know about the attack.

Yahzi
2011-02-18, 09:02 PM
what is the value of the sum?
Except Commune gives you "yes" or "no" answers. :smallredface:

I would allow that kind of stuff for wizards - advanced math is exactly what INT 19 guys should be doing, and Contact Other Planes sucks enough that they need the help to stay competitive with Commune.



And that's assuming you contacted a Greater Deity, not a Lesser or Intermediate one, and that he WANTS you to know about the attack.
The Deity you contacted is the DM, and he doesn't want every frick'n BBEG (and PC) to be auto-ganked. :smallbiggrin:

D&D in general has a problem with initiative: being allowed to buff for 3 rounds can signficantly increase a party's power, but only for about the length of one combat. So attack is always, always, always the best option, and defense is just a lazy man's form of suicide. This is all fun and games until Team Monster starts attacking the players. Then it's a veritable whine-fest.

Frankly, I think all buffs should last all day. If you dedicate a spell slot to +4 STR, I think you should have that STR as a permanent part of your character (unless actively debuffed). The intermediate step is to say that smart monsters guessed you were coming and cast their buffs in advance.

(To be clear: I allow the players to use Commune in this way as well. Which leads to some interesting dilemmas, as if they make too obvious of preparation like evacuating whole baronies then the planned attack won't or even can't occur - and sometimes they want the attack to happen, because they think they can win.)

But of course I do draw the line somewhere - Commune won't tell you if the attack is going to succeed.

Another option is to limit it to non-future telling: "Is anyone planning to attack me right now?" This means that if somebody takes more than a week to plan an attack, you will be fore-warned.

ericgrau
2011-02-18, 09:32 PM
D&D in general has a problem with initiative: being allowed to buff for 3 rounds can signficantly increase a party's power, but only for about the length of one combat. So attack is always, always, always the best option, and defense is just a lazy man's form of suicide. This is all fun and games until Team Monster starts attacking the players. Then it's a veritable whine-fest.

Solution: by RAW all casting must be done in a strong voice. By RAW talking is DC 0, arguably a strong voice could be less but whatever. Even with silent spell (which is rare due to the cost), traveling parties move at 30' per round so you're 90' away unless you make move silently checks. A door is only a +5 to listen DCs and a stone wall +15. When assaulting a dungeon either it's very small and untrapped (DM laziness perhaps) or there's a chance you'll waste your minute buffs when you go far away, buff, come back and find out the next room is empty.

And if you mean buffing then teleporting in then well see everyone's comments above for defenses against divination and teleportation. i.e., we're back to discussing the main topic.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-02-18, 10:07 PM
On the topic of buffs, I'll typically give intelligent opponents potions of +4 stat and various AC buffs, among other things. Cure potions, typically Moderate or Serious, buffs against a specific weakness or expected engagement method such as Protection from Arrows for an archer, etc. are usually included. Any potions I expect them to use when fighting the PCs they'll have at least three of, both so they don't drink up all the loot and because they don't expect this to be their last fight and may not use a potion if they have only one left. The exception is healing potions, which I'll typically only give them two of, or maybe one big one and a few smaller ones. Opponents in a dungeon crawl aren't caught completely unaware, they should probably be able to hear a battle going on down the hall or several rooms away and should be ready for trouble when the PCs arrive, so they'll have plenty of time to buff ahead of time. The old eggshells-in-the-hall trick would also alert them to the PCs' impending attack. If the PCs use buffs, then the monsters should use buffs, or you could just include buff effects in their permanent stats to even it up a bit.

Back to the original topic, that level 14 Aristocrat should have dipped a level of Expert early on to get UMD as a class skill. I'd like to point out the following: "The aristocrat is proficient in the use of all simple and martial weapons and with all types of armor and shields." I think that would include exotic armors, extreme shields (RoS), and various other AC items like the Gnome Battle Cloak (RoS). Granted he likely won't spend his every waking hour fully armored and armed to the teeth, but he's just as (in)capable of fending off a scry-and-die attack as any Tier 5 or lower. With Improved Initiative, Quick Reconnoiter, a +1 Eager Warning gauntlet, Bracers of Blinding Strike, and +1 Roaring light armor, that's +19 initiative without a Dex bonus, and your armor will automatically roar "whenever battle is imminent," thus alerting you to the attack so you can act in the surprise round. Throw in a Cape of the Mountebank and you can poof away as soon as they show up, then your guards can rally against them as they try to track you down. The Hat of Anonymity (at a higher caster level) keeps them from effectively scrying you, so they'll have to use more mundane means such as Gather Information to learn anything about their intended target, and someone is sure to inform you that there were thugs asking around about you.

Shalist
2011-02-18, 10:40 PM
Detect scrying (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=3133)

False vision (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=3186)

Nondetection (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=3354)


Obscure object (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=3355)

Scry trap (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=6228)
Abjuration
Level: Cleric 5, sorcerer/wizard 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: See text
You ward a creature against scrying, granting it defenses
capable of terribly wounding any would-be scryer. If the
subject of this spell comes within 10 feet of a sensor created
by a divination (scrying) spell, the scry trap automatically
activates. The caster of the scrying spell takes 1d6 points
of damage per your caster level (maximum 15d6) and is
blinded for 1 minute. A successful Will save halves the
damage and negates the blindness; spell resistance also
applies against this effect.
In addition, the caster of the scrying spell must succeed
on a caster level check (DC 10 + your caster level) or the
scrying spell is dispelled immediately (spell resistance does
not apply against this effect). The subject of scry trap becomes
automatically aware when the spell triggers, although the
subject gains no knowledge as to the nature of the scrying
spell or its caster.

You could also do it the old fashioned way with trickery and shenanigans--use mundane disguises (and maybe 'misdirection') to create a stunt double, etc.

edit: Have him use 'obscure object' on his pants, just to prank anyone scrying him :P

edit 2: added spoiler for scry trap. If you use a low CL source (ie, unlimited/day item), there scry attempt won't be dispelled when they stumble into your trap...and if you have like 10 traps on you (due to carrying around your lucky bag of rats at all times), they'd get zapped for each one.

Combine with the 'obscure object' idea above, so that the last thing they ever see is your...well, you get the idea.

vikingofdoom
2011-02-18, 11:27 PM
For the total overkill method, here are two useful 9th level spells, defluffed from the Expedition to Undermountain adventure:

Teleport Cage:
Abjuration
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 9
Components: V,S,M
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Close (25 ft+5 ft/2 levels)
Area: 1 10 ft. cube/level
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: None
SR: No

This spell modifies the functioning of all Conjuration (teleportation) spells and spell-like abilities, including dimension door, greater teleport, refuge, teleport, teleport circle, and word of recall, into, out of, and within its area of affect.
If the spell is cast in an area adjoining or overlapping another teleport cage.
When this spell is cast within a teleport cage, such translocation spells simply transport all affected creatures and objects to another random location within the teleport cage.
When a caster outside the area encompassed by a teleport cage attempts to teleport into it, this spell redirects his destination to another random location reachable by the spell.
Material Component: Diamond dust worth 1,000 gp

Scrying Cage:
Abjuration
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 9
Components: V,S,M
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Close (25 ft+5 ft/2 levels)
Area: 1 10 ft. cube/level
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: None
SR: No

This spell modifies the functioning of all divination spells and spell-like abilities into, out of, and within its area of effect and it bars the functioning of all divination (scrying) spells into, out of, and within its area of effect.
If the spell is cast in an area adjoining or overlapping another scrying cage, the effects of both spells merge into a single scrying cage.
When this spell is cast within, into, or out of a scrying cage. divination (scrying) spells simply fail to work and the spell is wasted. Other divination spells cannot bypass any continuous physical barrier, such as a wall, ceiling, or door. Such spells can pass through any aperture, even one as tiny as a keyhole.
Material Component: Diamond Dust worth 1,000 gp.

Both of these are expensive, but virtually impenetrable defences against scry-and-die effects.

Darklady2831
2011-02-18, 11:34 PM
Get someone to cast Cloister on your Castle.

Though, since that's epic magic, I'd go with Mind Blank and the like.

gomipile
2011-02-18, 11:46 PM
Have the ruler in question build his castle on tracks. The tracks run in a circle, and the castle is constantly moving at a speed greater than 25 feet per second. The scrying "sensor" can only move 150 feet per round.

To get on and off the castle, you have a second outer track with a trolley that can match speeds with the castle.

Perhaps this wouldn't work, and could be worked around, but the image is so hilarious I had to share.

Jack_Simth
2011-02-19, 12:13 AM
There's lots of anti-scrying tactics. I'm fond of a high charisma and a particular feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/spelltouchedFeats.htm#liveMyNightmare). Or you can keep an Eye (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#conceal) out for scrying.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-02-19, 08:18 AM
Have the ruler in question build his castle on tracks. The tracks run in a circle, and the castle is constantly moving at a speed greater than 25 feet per second. The scrying "sensor" can only move 150 feet per round.

To get on and off the castle, you have a second outer track with a trolley that can match speeds with the castle.

Perhaps this wouldn't work, and could be worked around, but the image is so hilarious I had to share.

Hal's Moving Castle?

pendell
2011-02-19, 08:59 AM
What about traps, like the ones Redcloak set in Xykon's throne room when Darth Vaarsuvius came calling? I'm thinking something that would intercept unauthorized teleport and dump directly to a sphere of annihilation. Or plane shift to the positive energy plane, such that the PCs swell up like balloons and pop. Or some type of contingency which A) whisks the BBEG to an "undisclosed location" and B) enhanced summon monster 9, pitching the PCs into a CR-you've got to be kidding encounter.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hewhosaysfish
2011-02-19, 10:26 AM
Have the ruler in question build his castle on tracks. The tracks run in a circle, and the castle is constantly moving at a speed greater than 25 feet per second. The scrying "sensor" can only move 150 feet per round.

To get on and off the castle, you have a second outer track with a trolley that can match speeds with the castle.

Perhaps this wouldn't work, and could be worked around, but the image is so hilarious I had to share.

If my maths is right, 25 feet per second is just over 17 miles per hour.
I could see myself living and working on something that's constantly moving at that speed.

PairO'Dice Lost
2011-02-19, 01:00 PM
Have the ruler in question build his castle on tracks. The tracks run in a circle, and the castle is constantly moving at a speed greater than 25 feet per second. The scrying "sensor" can only move 150 feet per round.

To get on and off the castle, you have a second outer track with a trolley that can match speeds with the castle.

Perhaps this wouldn't work, and could be worked around, but the image is so hilarious I had to share.

The counter:

Have a bunch of 1st-level caster minions using scying via scrolls, all of whom are sitting in a ring around you facing outwards. Each one focuses on a spot an equally-spaced interval around the track based on the number of minions (e.g. 3 casters -> 120 degrees, though you probably want upwards of 36 of them), with the casting times synchronized so they "hit" the target at the appropriate point in the motion. (Some observation of the castle setup would obviously be required to determine this.) Each one has also cast a silent image which they are concentrating on during the scrying, "projected" against the wall in front of them. Whatever they observe in the scrying, they change in the image, such that the image shows you whatever they're scrying in real time.

The whole room of scryers and the walls in front rotate at the same speed the castle does, with your chair immobile in the middle, so whenever the castle hits one of the scrying windows you see it in front of you. The basic effect is like a movie with low frames per second, and the more casters you have the better "frame rate" you can obtain.

Total cost: 700 gp per minion for a scroll of scrying, 0 gp for the silent image cast from spell slots, variable gp for the rotating room (basically nil if you can fabricate the setup and planar bind some critters to move it at the desired speed). It's about 4% of WBL for one 14th level character employing 10 minions, so it's easily doable if you really hate this aristocrat. Item crafting savings, higher-level casters who can cast scrying themselves, and other things can bring the cost down further.

randomhero00
2011-02-19, 01:34 PM
Well I'd say make him look good. Don't let the players know he's a bad guy. And/or give them a reason not to kill him.

For instance, if they know he's bad already, then he could kidnap a bunch of children and put them in a trap with a deadman's switch. Since they don't know the children they can't scry. If they kill him and he doesn't push the button each day a bunch of children will die. Its an old villain trick.

If you're players are the bad guys, well then let them. That's what they do...

gomipile
2011-02-19, 02:03 PM
The counter:

Have a bunch of 1st-level caster minions using scying via scrolls, all of whom are sitting in a ring around you facing outwards. Each one focuses on a spot an equally-spaced interval around the track based on the number of minions (e.g. 3 casters -> 120 degrees, though you probably want upwards of 36 of them), with the casting times synchronized so they "hit" the target at the appropriate point in the motion. (Some observation of the castle setup would obviously be required to determine this.) Each one has also cast a silent image which they are concentrating on during the scrying, "projected" against the wall in front of them. Whatever they observe in the scrying, they change in the image, such that the image shows you whatever they're scrying in real time.

The whole room of scryers and the walls in front rotate at the same speed the castle does, with your chair immobile in the middle, so whenever the castle hits one of the scrying windows you see it in front of you. The basic effect is like a movie with low frames per second, and the more casters you have the better "frame rate" you can obtain.

Total cost: 700 gp per minion for a scroll of scrying, 0 gp for the silent image cast from spell slots, variable gp for the rotating room (basically nil if you can fabricate the setup and planar bind some critters to move it at the desired speed). It's about 4% of WBL for one 14th level character employing 10 minions, so it's easily doable if you really hate this aristocrat. Item crafting savings, higher-level casters who can cast scrying themselves, and other things can bring the cost down further.

Of course, that trick gets harder the smaller the rooms in the castle are. Say the aristocrat is in a 10'x10' room and the track's circumference is 10,000 feet. Your 36 casters are each catching a 0.4 second view of the aristocrat once every 200 seconds if the castle is moving at 50 feet per second around the track(that is, the castle is moving twice as fast as the "sensor" of the scrying spell can move.) So you are seeing 7.2% of a movie, with lots of gaps. The mere fact that you are unable to observe the target for even a round at a time could be construed by some DM's as meaning that the target is untargetable.

With a change in setup, you might be able to view the target for a full round once per revolution by using 15 caster minions, but it would be jerky and hard to time. Also, if the aristocrat makes even one save against one of the scrying spells, well, there goes the operation.

Aemoh87
2011-02-19, 02:19 PM
Well I'd say make him look good. Don't let the players know he's a bad guy. And/or give them a reason not to kill him.

For instance, if they know he's bad already, then he could kidnap a bunch of children and put them in a trap with a deadman's switch. Since they don't know the children they can't scry. If they kill him and he doesn't push the button each day a bunch of children will die. Its an old villain trick.

If you're players are the bad guys, well then let them. That's what they do...

I like this idea, but only make him to appear as something your players would like. The best villains aren't the best because of their skills/stats. It's because they are so damn smart.

PairO'Dice Lost
2011-02-19, 04:26 PM
Of course, that trick gets harder the smaller the rooms in the castle are. Say the aristocrat is in a 10'x10' room and the track's circumference is 10,000 feet. Your 36 casters are each catching a 0.4 second view of the aristocrat once every 200 seconds if the castle is moving at 50 feet per second around the track(that is, the castle is moving twice as fast as the "sensor" of the scrying spell can move.) So you are seeing 7.2% of a movie, with lots of gaps. The mere fact that you are unable to observe the target for even a round at a time could be construed by some DM's as meaning that the target is untargetable.

With a change in setup, you might be able to view the target for a full round once per revolution by using 15 caster minions, but it would be jerky and hard to time. Also, if the aristocrat makes even one save against one of the scrying spells, well, there goes the operation.

Oh, granted, it's much easier to defeat detection with the moving castle than it is to counteract that protection. I was just trying to find an equally-amusing counter; if you really want to find them efficiently, there are other means, such as getting yourself an elemental weird who can spam greater scrying to see the whole track at once.

The main issue with this counter is resolution and frame rate, which can be fixed with more minions. The castle goes faster and makes it harder to target? Get more minions for coverage. The target makes his saves? Get more minions for redundancy. If cost is an issue, use whatever cost reduction shenanigans you find most palatable (these are evil adventurers, after all) and you can field all the minions you want. With enough shenanigans (say, a 100% scroll cost reduction unbound scroll, a bard, and a telepath) you can just go co-opt a village of commoners to do it by dominating them, psychic reformationing them ranks in UMD, buffing them up with the bard, and having them use their free scrolls of silent image and scrying to pull this off.

blazingshadow
2011-02-19, 04:41 PM
if you scry and die then you are doing it wrong. you are supposed to scry and kill

JaronK
2011-02-19, 07:21 PM
Except Commune gives you "yes" or "no" answers. :smallredface:

I would allow that kind of stuff for wizards - advanced math is exactly what INT 19 guys should be doing, and Contact Other Planes sucks enough that they need the help to stay competitive with Commune.

Yes, that's why I referred to it as the "Binary Contact trick" It's for Contact other plane. Meanwhile, deities do know about one week ahead in their domain... so you need to contact an appropriate diety for whom assassinations or battle and such might be their domain.

JaronK

Yahzi
2011-02-19, 08:41 PM
Meanwhile, deities do know about one week ahead in their domain... so you need to contact an appropriate diety for whom assassinations or battle and such might be their domain.
Or just, you know, your deity.

There's a reason clerics run empires and wizards hide in lonely towers, forgotten by all but a few. :D

(There's also a reason fighters run empires - because clerics hire them to be the "king" and thus the target of scry & dies, while the clerics actually pass the laws and collect the taxes).

Right, Binary Contact... right there in the title. To be fair, I didn't Take 10 on my reading check. :smallbiggrin:



Solution: by RAW all casting must be done in a strong voice. By RAW talking is DC 0, arguably a strong voice could be less but whatever. Even with silent spell (which is rare due to the cost), traveling parties move at 30' per round so you're 90' away unless you make move silently checks. A door is only a +5 to listen DCs and a stone wall +15. When assaulting a dungeon either it's very small and untrapped (DM laziness perhaps) or there's a chance you'll waste your minute buffs when you go far away, buff, come back and find out the next room is empty.
Then they just go through the empty rooms until they find something to kill (I rarely have that kind of static room-based adventure anyway - when i do, they "pretend" to cast spells, then don't go into the room for 10 rds, then actually cast spells and go in, thus having robbed the monsters of short-term buffs). Or they ride horses/use magic to cover ground quickly. Or they use longer buffs (hours like in 3.0). Or they buff from potions/wands. My players are endlessly inventive when it comes to cheating, or as they prefer to call it, "winning."

Still, you have a good point. Spell-casting is meant to be the opening round of a battle; this the balancing factor. You can either buff or fight in each round. This should be stressed more, both for the players and the monsters.

zorba1994
2011-02-19, 11:49 PM
Honestly, this is all you need:

DM: Doesn't work


Ta-Da! Or make up some plausible reason why it doesn't work. Body doubles, etc.

WinWin
2011-02-20, 12:42 AM
Level 14? Take the leadership feat. Pick up a wizard cohort. Have the wizard cohort take the craft contingent spell feat. The aristocrat can have up to 14 contingencies on him, his cohort at least 11 and likely many more on his higher level followers.

Lord Shojo makes a graceful magical exit with his most trusted assistants while a group remains to hold off the intruders. They make gun gestures with their hands while yelling "pew pew!" and unleash all manner of debilitating effects at the intruders.

The Gem of Psychic Poison (BoVD) is a decent item for a ruler. Penalises attempt to scry and use compulsion effects on it's holder.

PairO'Dice Lost
2011-02-20, 03:31 AM
Honestly, this is all you need:

DM: Doesn't work


Ta-Da! Or make up some plausible reason why it doesn't work. Body doubles, etc.

With all the plausible and easily-accomplished existing counters to S&D available, resorting to DM fiat is a boring cop-out. They're an evil adventuring party; 'porting in to gank helpless goody-goodies is exactly what they should be doing, and just denying it instead of coming up with countermeasures that they can plan to get around defeats the whole point.

JaronK
2011-02-20, 03:42 AM
Honestly, this is all you need:

DM: Doesn't work


Ta-Da! Or make up some plausible reason why it doesn't work. Body doubles, etc.

And now you've ruined the game.

Seriously, when a party is trying to do this, the game they want is for you to try and counter them, but for them to have a chance to get through. The more creative the counters, the more interesting the game.

DM fiat just says "no, you have to fail" and the player's only recourse is to sit there and do whatever it was you wanted them to do.

JaronK

MeeposFire
2011-02-20, 03:50 AM
Honestly, this is all you need:

DM: Doesn't work


Ta-Da! Or make up some plausible reason why it doesn't work. Body doubles, etc.

I would prefer a reason for it to not work or for it to not exist at all as an option than for a straight DM fiat reason like this. It is just too ham fisted for my tastes. Now if you make it into a mystery that needs to be solved (why does this not work do I need to quest to make this work>) then we got something here...

ericgrau
2011-02-20, 04:45 AM
Agreed scry and die should be a challenge not automatic success or failure. Maybe I can get something nearby instead, etc. If I'm going to be thrown into a fight with no options but to see things and hit them then it's time to play video games.