Cloaker as a pet (3.5)

[Draconi Redfir]

Allright so i kind of want to play a character with a cloaker as a pet, meaning i'll need at least a few levels in Druid or ranger (i'm planning 4 levels of Druid probably) problem is i cant for the life of me find any stat blocks for Cloakers as pets, has anyone come across/made something along these lines?

Also; the character is kind of a Small one, anyone know of a way to get a small/midget/baby Cloaker? :smallbiggrin:

[Land Outcast]

Ok... first I'll go out to point out that cloakers are not only aberrations (anathema to everything natural), but also they have such an alien mindset that concepts which imply others/alterity as anything else than competitors (or slaves-to-be) are unknown to them (to the point that the concept of "gods" is alien to them beyond "very very powerful creatures").

That might be the reason the don't usually appear as possible companions/pets/etc.

That said, I belive we could halve its HD, reduce it to medium size, perhaps remove some ability, and make it available as a companion.

As precedents of 3-4 HD companions we have:
Camel (3HD), Horse (3HD), Manta Ray (4HD), Shark (3HD), Squid (3HD)

I'm not sure about how to weight the relative power of the aquatic ones, because the strongest (beyond the Squid's mean grapple) would be the shark... but being aquatic it has some serious limitations.

[Zaydos]

Also note that a cloaker's 14 Int and flight give it significant advantages over those listed. The real trick is to decide which abilities it loses, stat it out, give it an appropriate CR*, and then figure out what the level modification should be probably with a boost (as it doesn't have to learn tricks and its increased int gives it the ability to perform several out of combat and even in combat actions that are normally beyond an animal) or a feat requirement.

*: This is important due to the guidelines for animal companion level being CR based (specifically - [CR x1.5; rounded up to the next 3]). Hence dire wolf (CR 3) has -6 (4.5 rounded up to the next 3), and so does tiger (CR 4). Not everything follows this but it is the standard.

For standard cloaker I'd need to compare to the -9 and -12 creatures and choose which one it was closer to balancing out of combat utility and in-combat usefulness. I'd actually probably require an "Aberration Companion" feat and go with -9. For leveled down cloaker I'd need to see the stats.

Edit: Also a better comparison for a 3 or 4 HD cloaker with nerfed abilities would probably be dire bat (4 HD, large size, Str 17, Dex 22, Con 17, nat armor +5; compared to 3 or 4 HD, medium size, special ability or abilities, Str 13, Dex 18, Con 13, nat armor +5). It's probably a little weaker but I'd still say even if it had animal int that it's too strong for a +0.

[Draconi Redfir]

Well the character using it is going to be a Choker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10364299&postcount=1), which is also an aberration, so they would at least have that in common :P

Also: Cloakers aren't Aquatic. They fly (or something) and live underground.


For leveled down cloaker I'd need to see the stats.

These stats? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cloaker.htm)

[Land Outcast]

Size/Type: Medium Aberration
Hit Dice: 3d8+3 (17 hp)
Initiative: +8
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 40 ft. (average)
Armor Class: 17 (+4 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+3
Attack: Tail slap +3 melee (1d4+1)
Full Attack: Tail slap +3 melee (1d4+1) and bite -2 melee (1d3+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Moan, engulf
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., shadow shift
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +4
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 18, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 13
Skills: Hide +9, Listen +9, Move Silently +9, Spot +4
Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative

Ok, I did the following:

Reduced it to medium size (applying the monster advancement modifiers), reduced natural attack accordingly.
Halved it's HD, removing Combat Reflexes (6th HD feat) because of reduced reach (simultaneusly reducing combat efectiveness), removing 12 skillpoints (corresponding to 4th, 5th and 6th HD) from its skills and reducing Max ranks from 9 to 6. Also, reducing Bab from +4 to +2.
Then reduced Int, Wis, and Cha by 2 each. Modifying saves and skillpoints accordingly.


Of course, that isn't everything, but it's a start

[Zaydos]

Well the character using it is going to be a Choker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10364299&postcount=1), which is also an aberration, so they would at least have that in common :P

Also: Cloakers aren't Aquatic. They fly (or something) and live underground.



These stats? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cloaker.htm)

I was referring to the request for a small/midget/baby version.


Size/Type: Medium Aberration
Hit Dice: 3d8+3 (17 hp)
Initiative: +8
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 40 ft. (average)
Armor Class: 17 (+4 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+3
Attack: Tail slap +3 melee (1d4+1)
Full Attack: Tail slap +3 melee (1d4+1) and bite -2 melee (1d3+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Moan, engulf
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., shadow shift
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +4
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 18, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 13
Skills: Hide +9, Listen +9, Move Silently +9, Spot +4
Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative

Ok, I did the following:

Reduced it to medium size (applying the monster advancement modifiers), reduced natural attack accordingly.
Halved it's HD, removing Combat Reflexes (6th HD feat) because of reduced reach (simultaneusly reducing combat efectiveness), removing 12 skillpoints (corresponding to 4th, 5th and 6th HD) from its skills and reducing Max ranks from 9 to 6. Also, reducing Bab from +4 to +2.
Then reduced Int, Wis, and Cha by 2 each. Modifying saves and skillpoints accordingly.


Of course, that isn't everything, but it's a start

I'd further reduce the abilities of its moan specifically by removing the nauseate one and stupor completely, reduce fear to shaken, and make the unnerve effect only daze after 6 rounds instead of make them "unable to attack or defend themselves".

[Land Outcast]

Modifying the Moan (changes underlined):
Also, I halved the areas... which actually can make the abilities more manageable. Removed the Fear and Stupor options.
Moan (Ex)
Cloakers are immune to these sonic, mind-affecting attacks. Unless otherwise specified, a creature that successfully saves against one of these effects cannot be affected by the same moan effect from the same cloaker for 24 hours. All save DCs for moan effects are Charisma-based.

Unnerve
Anyone within a 30-foot spread automatically takes a -1 penalty on attack and damage rolls. Those forced to hear the moan for more than 6 consecutive rounds must succeed on a DC 12 Will save or enter a trance, if disturbed they break out of the trance.

Nausea
Anyone in a 15-foot cone must succeed on a DC 12 Fortitude save or be overcome by nausea and weakness. Affected characters fall prone and become nauseated for one round.

[Draconi Redfir]

Maybe remove the moan ability altogether? or perhaps reduce it's effect to "make enemies shaken" only?

[Land Outcast]

Updated the Moan. We can always remove it, too.

I belive Engulf can stay as-is, reducing maximum size to small.
Engulf (Ex)
A cloaker can try to wrap a mmall or smaller creature in its body as a standard action. The cloaker attempts a grapple that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and bites the engulfed victim with a +4 bonus on its attack roll. It can still use its whiplike tail to strike at other targets.
Attacks that hit an engulfing cloaker deal half their damage to the monster and half to the trapped victim.
Shadow shift: again, we could simply do away with it completely, or reduce it to only Obscure Vision or Silent Image.
Shadow Shift (Su)

A cloaker can manipulate shadows. This ability is effective only in shadowy areas and has twopossible effects.

Obscure Vision
The cloaker gains concealment (20% miss chance) for 1d4 rounds.

Silent Image
This effect duplicates a silent image spell (DC 12, caster level 6th). The save DC is Charisma-based.

[Draconi Redfir]

Any way we could increase engulf to medium creatures? There really aren’t that many small enemies in the campaign I’m playing.

To make up for it we could remove moan entirely and reduce shadow shift to just obscure vision, or maybe remove all of shadow shift together and allow it to roll hide checks while in combat in shadowy areas?

[Land Outcast]

Ok, this is my first complete offer for the Hatchling Cloaker, it might still be too powerful.
Note: returned Engulf to affect medum creatures, removed Moan, reduced Shadow Shift to a +4 racial bonus on hide checks in shadowy areas.
Hatchling Cloaker
Size/Type: Medium Aberration
Hit Dice: 3d8+3 (17 hp)
Initiative: +8
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 40 ft. (average)
Armor Class: 17 (+4 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+3
Attack: Tail slap +3 melee (1d4+1)
Full Attack: Tail slap +3 melee (1d4+1) and bite -2 melee (1d3+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Engulf
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., shadow shift
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +4
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 18, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 13
Skills: Hide +9, Listen +9, Move Silently +9, Spot +4
Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative

Engulf (Ex)
A hatchling cloaker can try to wrap a medium or smaller creature in its body as a standard action. The hatchling cloaker attempts a grapple that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and bites the engulfed victim with a +4 bonus on its attack roll. It can still use its whiplike tail to strike at other targets.
Attacks that hit an engulfing hatchling cloaker deal half their damage to the monster and half to the trapped victim.

Shadow Shift (Su)
A hatchling cloaker can manipulate shadows to gain a +4 racial bonus on hide checks. This ability is effective only in shadowy areas.

[Draconi Redfir]

Just to remove some OPness, whatssay we reduce fly to 20ft, maybe 30, and reduce darkvision to 30ft?

[Zaydos]

I'd vote against reducing Darkvision (since DV 60-ft isn't that OP), and would be neutral on the speed change.

Either way (with or without said changes) I'd vote it at a druid level -3.

Also just because I keep meaning to note this: choker druid with cloaker animal companion = awesome idea. Chokers riding mini-cloakers in general just seems made of cool and I might have to do that in my campaign sometime.

Also I need to create an Aberration Companion feat sometime.

[Draconi Redfir]

I'd vote against reducing Darkvision (since DV 60-ft isn't that OP), and would be neutral on the speed change.

Either way (with or without said changes) I'd vote it at a druid level -3.

Also just because I keep meaning to note this: choker druid with cloaker animal companion = awesome idea. Chokers riding mini-cloakers in general just seems made of cool and I might have to do that in my campaign sometime.

Also I need to create an Aberration Companion feat sometime.


As we speak I am working on a choker 3 rogue/4 druid character with a possible Assassin prestige in the future.. He has 20 Str and Dex, 12 Con, and 10-11 everything else. he is going to be a stealthy attacker who climbs around on walls and roofs picking up individual targets by the neck/head and holding them off the ground until they pass out/die.

He is going to wear his pet cloaker :smallamused: (though now that i think about it... he only weighs 35 lbs + his gear, so maybe he COULD ride his cloaker XD)

[Land Outcast]

I'd vote against reducing Darkvision (since DV 60-ft isn't that OP), and would be neutral on the speed change.

Either way (with or without said changes) I'd vote it at a druid level -3.

Really? Druid Level -3? I mean, comparing with the Dire Bat...
(where I thought the cloaker was better I underlined the comparisson)
Size/Type: Medium vs. Large
Hit Dice: 3 (17 hp) vs 4 (30 hp)
Initiative: cloaker has 2 more
Speed: has slower land speed, worse maneuverability
Armor Class: 17 vs. 20
Base Attack/Grapple: slightly worse attack bonus, hugely worse grapple
Full Attack: Has Bite, but even if both attacks hit it is: 6 avg vs 9.5 avg. damage
Space/Reach: cloaker occupies less space and has same reach
Special Attacks: Engulf, but with a mere +3 to grapple
Special Qualities: Darkvision vs. Blindsense
Saves: Dire bat beats by far the cloaker's scores
Abilities: Dire bat beats by far the cloaker's scores save for Int and Cha
Skills: Dire bat beats by far the cloaker's scores save Hide
Feats: Improved Initiative vs. Stealthy

:smallcool:It'd be extremely cool to have a choker assasin who rides a cloaker, yes it would!

[Draconi Redfir]

Though to have my Chocker able to ride the Cloaker as it is now, he needs to weigh less the 50 lbs. and he weighs 45 ATM with 35 natural and 10 from studded leather armor.

he's gunna either need to travel light, or find cloaky some steroids.

[Zaydos]

Really? Druid Level -3? I mean, comparing with the Dire Bat...
(where I thought the cloaker was better I underlined the comparisson)
Size/Type: Medium vs. Large
Hit Dice: 3 (17 hp) vs 4 (30 hp)
Initiative: cloaker has 2 more
Speed: has slower land speed, worse maneuverability
Armor Class: 17 vs. 20
Base Attack/Grapple: slightly worse attack bonus, hugely worse grapple
Full Attack: Has Bite, but even if both attacks hit it is: 6 avg vs 9.5 avg. damage
Space/Reach: cloaker occupies less space and has same reach
Special Attacks: Engulf, but with a mere +3 to grapple
Special Qualities: Darkvision vs. Blindsense
Saves: Dire bat beats by far the cloaker's scores
Abilities: Dire bat beats by far the cloaker's scores save for Int and Cha
Skills: Dire bat beats by far the cloaker's scores save Hide
Feats: Improved Initiative vs. Stealthy

:smallcool:It'd be extremely cool to have a choker assasin who rides a cloaker, yes it would!

It's the flight aspect and the feat gain from level up coupled with Int. I looked over the official animal companions and none were medium-sized and could fly till -3. Also note that dire bat is one of the best choices for animal companion (although not as good as fleshraker) in the game. It's also significantly better than the +0 options such as wolf.

[Draconi Redfir]

It's the flight aspect and the feat gain from level up coupled with Int. I looked over the official animal companions and none were medium-sized and could fly till -3. Also note that dire bat is one of the best choices for animal companion (although not as good as fleshraker) in the game. It's also significantly better than the +0 options such as wolf.

So would that mean that a level 4 druid wouldn’t be able to have one of these as a pet? All i know about druid level -3 is that Rangers have it and cant have animal companions till 4th level.

[Land Outcast]

Though to have my Chocker able to ride the Cloaker as it is now, he needs to weigh less the 50 lbs. and he weighs 45 ATM with 35 natural and 10 from studded leather armor.

he's gunna either need to travel light, or find cloaky some steroids.

Cloaker steroids (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bullsStrength.htm)
It lasts one minute per level, but that should be enough for some interesting manouvers.
Besides, I totally see your character leaving the heavier equipment behind when scouting or *cough* watching over people *cough* *cough* who you're totally *not* gonna kill *cough*.

Of course, if you're taking just 4 Druid levels you might want to get something to extend the spell, 'cause 4 minutes is a bit short... like Practiced Spellcaster, which ups your caster level by 4 up to a max. of your HD.

EDIT: I see the point about the dire bat and "Druid -3" We could also return some strength to the cloaker to approximate it to the dire bat's power level...
Incidentally giving enough strength to be... rode? ridden?* :smallbiggrin:

*english is not my native tongue and I have these kind of f***ups once in a while

[Draconi Redfir]

i'll need to move some skill points into ride then :smallbiggrin:

[Land Outcast]

Lets give him back 1 HD, 2 Str and Con, upgrade its fly speed and 1 natural armor aaand Weapon Finesse and see what happens
Hatchling Cloaker
Size/Type: Medium Aberration
Hit Dice: 4d8+8 (26 hp)
Initiative: +8
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 40 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 18 (+4 Dex, +4 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+5
Attack: Tail slap +7 melee (1d4+2)
Full Attack: Tail slap +7 melee (1d4+2) and bite +2 melee (1d3+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Engulf
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., shadow shift
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +5
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 18, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 13
Skills: Hide +11, Listen +10, Move Silently +11, Spot +3
Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse
Environment: Underground
Organization: Solitary or flock (7-12)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually chaotic neutral
Advancement: 5-6 (Medium); 7-9 HD (Large); 10-18 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

Engulf (Ex)
A hatchling cloaker can try to wrap a medium or smaller creature in its body as a standard action. The hatchling cloaker attempts a grapple that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and bites the engulfed victim with a +4 bonus on its attack roll. It can still use its whiplike tail to strike at other targets.
Attacks that hit an engulfing hatchling cloaker deal half their damage to the monster and half to the trapped victim.

Shadow Shift (Su)
A hatchling cloaker can manipulate shadows to gain a +4 racial bonus on hide checks. This ability is effective only in shadowy areas.

----------------------------------------------
I think that'd make a good animal companion for Druid -3; see Dire Bat below for comparisson with a Druid -3 flying animal companion.

[B]Dire Bat
Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 4d8+12 (30 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 40 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 20 (-1 size, +6 Dex, +5 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+10
Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d8+4)
Full Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d8+4)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Blindsense 40 ft.
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +10, Will +6
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 22, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6
Skills: Hide +4, Listen +12*, Move Silently +11, Spot +8*
Feats: Alertness, Stealthy
Environment: Temperate deserts
Organization: Solitary or colony (5-8)


Variant with Moan and Shadow Shift (CR 3)
[B]Hatchling Cloaker
Size/Type: Medium Aberration
Hit Dice: 4d8+8 (26 hp)
Initiative: +8
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 40 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 18 (+4 Dex, +4 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+5
Attack: Tail slap +7 melee (1d4+2)
Full Attack: Tail slap +7 melee (1d4+2) and bite +2 melee (1d3+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Engulf, moan
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., shadow shift
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +5
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 18, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 15
Skills: Hide +11, Listen +10, Move Silently +11, Spot +3
Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse
Environment: Underground
Organization: Solitary or flock (7-12)
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually chaotic neutral
Advancement: 5 HD (Medium); 6 HD (use cloaker stats and advancement)
Level Adjustment: —

Engulf (Ex)
A hatchling cloaker can try to wrap a medium or smaller creature in its body as a standard action. The hatchling cloaker attempts a grapple that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and bites the engulfed victim with a +4 bonus on its attack roll. It can still use its whiplike tail to strike at other targets.
Attacks that hit an engulfing hatchling cloaker deal half their damage to the monster and half to the trapped victim.

[B]Moan (Ex)
Cloakers and hatchling cloakers are immune to this sonic, mind-affecting attack. Unless otherwise specified, a creature that successfully saves against the hatchling cloaker's moan cannot be affected by the moan effect from the same hachling cloaker for 24 hours. The save DC for moan effects is Charisma-based.

Anyone within a 30-foot spread automatically takes a -1 penalty on attack and damage rolls. Those forced to hear the moan for more than 6 consecutive rounds must succeed on a DC 14 Will save or enter a trance, if an affected creature is attacked or similarly disturbed it breaks out of the trance.

Shadow Shift (Su)
A cloaker can manipulate shadows. This ability gives him a +4 racial bonus on hide checks, and aditionally has the following possible effect:

Silent Image
This effect duplicates a silent image spell (DC 14, caster level 6th). The save DC is Charisma-based.

[Draconi Redfir]

is it still overpowered compared to other druid pets?

Maybe we could make it so that they can only be trained by other Aberrations or people with a specific feat? Wouldn’t effect me since i am a Chocker, but it’s a thought.

If it needs to have some reductions done, could always remove improved initiative, cut its natural armor in half, and replace alertness with something else.

edit: dont see what weapon finesse would do.

Edit 2: Goin to bed, my game is tomorrow, with any luck my cleric will die and i can play the choker :P gunna use the cloaker in the post above as a pet, maybe i can ask my GM if there are any problems with it and we can edit it accordingly afterwords.

[Lord Loss]

I'd call it very high-powered for an animal companion, but not OP. I never play druids though so I'm not all that familliar with the power levels of their companions.

[Frog Dragon]

Maybe go Beast Heart Adept? They specifically get aberration or magical beast companions. With a suitably nerfed Cloaker, you could get this at level 6.

[Land Outcast]

Updated my previous post with Dire Bat for ease of reference.

I belive the nerfed cloaker it is ok for an "animal" companion availabe at Druid -3.

[Draconi Redfir]

Good news everyone! after the tragic death of my bugbear cleric, (death by an acid-spitting swamp-thing) I was able to play my Choker druid/rogue for a short while before the session ended. it looks like my GM agrees with the Cloaker model i used, but just to be safe I’m going to post a link to this thread in our game's message board.

didn’t do much in the game, just used the Cloaker to fly over a flooded city in the center of my territory (I’ve decided that I am a local resident of the swamp, and not too fond of the lizardmen and hobgoblins that recently decided to take charge), flown over the other PC's who were crossing the "lake" on a reed raft (and have yet to know about me) and disabled a warning bell on a half-drowned bell tower some hobgoblins could have used to alert the nearby hobgoblin/lizardman forces of the PC's presence.


that’s about it really, haven’t taken anyone out, but starting next session, I’m hoping to stealthily take out some hobgoblins who have decided to open fire on the other PC's through some archery holes that give them superior cover from any ranged attacks the other PC's may have. So I may be their only hope!:smallbiggrin:

I just wanted to thank everyone who helped me make the choker/cloaker combo, and i have a feeling it's going to be a fun game :smallbiggrin:

[Land Outcast]

You're more than welcome, it's a way of having fun for me :smallsmile:

And thanks for the nomination :smallbiggrin:, I'll edit the post to add CR, advancement, etc...
And a variant with nerfed moan perhaps.

[Zaydos]

Like Land Outcast said you're more than welcome. I'm just trying to figure out when I can use such a combo on my players :smallamused:

Not that they couldn't handle it.

[Land Outcast]

@Gicko: Just so that people don't have to search for the mentioned choker, perhaps you'd like to make a thread with both finished results...
Perhaps even stats for your character ;)

[Prime32]

Aw, I'm too late (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9557.msg366230#msg366230). :smallfrown:

Engulf's best use is on you, so that the cloaker acts as a shield.