skeletons and zombies

[kiryoku]

does anyone know why zombies and skeletons max out at 20hd is there a balance problem or did they not plan on making epic skeletons and zombies?

[rayne_dragon]

I get the feeling it is one of those arbitrary limits. No reason skeletons and zombies with more than 20 HD cannot exist other than DM fiat. Although a skeleton/zombie with 20 HD and no extra abilities is kinda boring.

[kiryoku]

good point thats what i thought but they kind of strip monsters down to make them so idk how to make them more interesting.

[kiryoku]

i just remembered the skeleton and zombie variants in Libris Mortis added some flavor but not realy too much depth to them.

[rayne_dragon]

You can add templates, class levels, give them some of the abilities of the creatures they were made from. Or maybe give them at will or per day necromantic spell effects. Or even give them abilities from other undead. If you feel creative you can just think of abilities that would be really cool and add those to them: like vomiting acidic blood, or a screaming sonic attack. Undead are great monsters to add things to and can easily be used to make memorable encounters with a little thought, personality, and customization.

Edit: just a friendly note, double posting is generally frowned upon, try to edit your posts instead of making a new one. I would not want you getting in trouble with the mods.

[kiryoku]

i like some of those ideas and had some variants that i made that did one or two of those but awaken undead gives them some abilites and thanks i didnt know that about posting so ill watch that from now on

[rayne_dragon]

No worries, you seemed like you might be newish so I thought I'd mention it. I'm not sure that you'll get any infractions unless it gets really excessive... if you haven't yet, you may also want to look over the forum rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1) because some of them aren't just common sense/courtesy, although there is good reasoning for all of them.

Good luck with the undead. :smallcool:

[HunterOfJello]

For zombies, the maximum hit dice a monster can have is 10HD for it to be raised as a zombie through Animate Dead. This is explained in the Zombie section of the SRD. (This number is then multiplied by 2 giving the Zombie a maximum of 20HD.)

The maximum HD a creature can have and be turned into a Skeleton (by Animate Dead) is 20HD.

~

This is likely a balance issue more than anything else. Animate Dead as a 3rd (Cleric) or 4th level (Wiz/Sorc) just isn't appropriate to be giving you a 20+HD ally once you're at level 10.

[AslanCross]

As mentioned above, there are actually many other more interesting undead types to give powerful creatures. If it's a dragon, make it a dracolich. Maybe your ogre skeletons can become Boneclaws instead. Humanoid characters work well as death knights (if they're melee-based) or liches (as casters).

There's also a laundry list of powerful high-HD undead creatures with abilities that make them far more interesting than "a very large skeleton" or "a very large zombie": the necronaut and charnel hound (MM3), the boneyard (LM), the deathbringer (okay, this one kind of sucks for its CR; MM2), and many others.

It's always up to the DM to break the arbitrary rules of templates. By RAW, one can't make a half-dragon mummy, but why not?

[Land Outcast]

Hey, in case you didn't remember, skeletons and zombies retain all proficencies with manufactured weapons and armor, so there you have another option to make them more interesting.

So, a Cloud Giant Zombie (34 HD) would still be able to use his oversized morningstar and chain shirt. (I'm not sure how it works by RAW, but if he had a Fighter level I belive he could as easily wear a full plate).

Of course, there's always templates and custom abilities which you can create for them (or ask help in the Homebrew forum).

By the way, is it necessarily skeletons and zombies or would other undead work for you.

[kiryoku]

i think thats why you only can control 2 or 4hd(i think only if you desecrate the area first) of undead per level to stop you from doing that

edit: wow ya i know but what could i do to skeletons mainly to make them more interesting with out breaking them i tend to go overboard and wanted some help staying somewhat evened out you know.

[Runestar]

Draconomicon does allow dragon skeletons of more than 20 HD. In fact, you can have great wyrm red dragon skeletons weighing in at 40HD!

I guess this reflects a limit to how strong a skeleton or zombie can be.

[kiryoku]

i have that book ill check it out thanks

edit: it dosent give a limit on hd but does go over 20hd so i guess as long as its a dragon it dosent matter hmmmm.. i may limit that to try and keep it balance not sure

[Daftendirekt]

i think thats why you only can control 2 or 4hd(i think only if you desecrate the area first) of undead per level to stop you from doing that

Play a Dread Necromancer. "When a dread necromancer uses the animate dead spell to create undead, she can control 4 + charisma modifier bonus HD worth of undead per class level (rather than the 4 HD per level normally granted by the spell). Add that to the +4 to Str and Dex and +2 HP per HD that the same class ability (Undead Mastery) gives, and you've got yourself an uber-summoner when it comes to undead. Charisma is their casting Ability Score anyway. Did I mention they're a feat away from healing themselves whenever they want?

The only downside to the class is it ONLY gets Necromancy spells. Get a DM to house-rule you some versatility and the class is actually pretty cool.

[kiryoku]

nice ill have to look into that thanks what book is that class in?

edit: i think Libris Mortis has some feats too help too

[Daftendirekt]

Dread Necromancer is in Heroes of Horror, pg 85. Sorry, should have mentioned that.

But, again, their spell list is simply the "Necro" section of the sorcerer/wizard list. NO other school. It gets limiting and old after a while, so if you do go for it, I'd suggest begging the DM to allow more spell selection.

[kiryoku]

hmmm ok ill look into that sounds iffy if its not allowed anything but necro.

[Daftendirekt]

The class is essentially "20 levels to turn you into a lich" instead of just making a wizard and taking the template. Its charnel touch (aforementioned mode of self-healing with a feat. It's an at will negative energy touch attack. Take Tomb-Tainted Soul and have negative heal and positive harm), the Undead Mastery, rebuke undead as an arcane caster, and free Improved Familiar at 7 are about all it has going for it.

The one I played was when i was still fairly new to the game. Unless you want to be the best necromancer ever, you really would just be better off making a necromancy specialist wizard.

But hey, throwing the option out there for you to do with as you will.

[kiryoku]

ya i have a question is it like the class that turns sorcerer into a half dragon or do you get that +4 level adjust. that kind of hurts you

[Daftendirekt]

No LA. The whole idea of the class is you get the benefits of the lich template spread out over 20 levels, instead of taking the template and also avoiding the 100k GP cost of the phylactery. At 20th level you become Undead. You never actually gain the template. As such, some of the benefits are slightly gimped. For example, the fear aura that the DN gets is only ever 5' radius, although it's not limited in its effect on monsters by HD. No ability score or skill boosts. Less DR, no natural armor.

The more I look at this to tell you about it, the more I think I was a moron for playing one. The Undead Mastery is really about the only thing it has going for it.

Just play a wizard. lol.

[kiryoku]

hmmmm you sure the Heroes of Horror book is not 3.0 instead of 3.5 because the lich got a massive overhaul between the two updates

[Ionizer]

Heroes of Horror is definitely 3.5.

[kiryoku]

OK just checking it makes a huge difference thanks

edit: wait it says you gain the lich template right in the level 20 ability so you do get all lich abilities so its awesome

[Ionizer]

To expand, Heroes of Horror was printed in Late 2005. My 3.5 PHB has a copyright of July 2003. So, HoH came out over 2 years into 3.5's life cycle. (Contrast Complete Warrior, which came out in December '03, just 5 months after the 3.5 PHB, and still has many holdovers from 3.0 design philosophy in it.)

[kiryoku]

ya i noticed some 3.5 books are better synced then others and some are more like the 4.0 in format

[Daftendirekt]

OK just checking it makes a huge difference thanks

edit: wait it says you gain the lich template right in the level 20 ability so you do get all lich abilities so its awesome

"undergoes a hideous transformation and becomes a lich. Her type changes to Undead, she gains all traits of Undead. Etc,etc".

It never explicitly mentions the lich template. You just gain the undead type on top of all the bonuses accrued over the 20 levels. The whole point of the class is becoming a lich without taking the template.

[HunterOfJello]

"undergoes a hideous transformation and becomes a lich. Her type changes to Undead, she gains all traits of Undead. Etc,etc".

It never explicitly mentions the lich template. You just gain the undead type on top of all the bonuses accrued over the 20 levels. The whole point of the class is becoming a lich without taking the template.

I thought the point was to gain the template with no LA? I don't know much about it though.

I know a similar matter applies when looking at the Dragon Disciple PrC. If you get the Half-Dragon template with the LA as a capstone, the class is only worth taking 9 level in. If you get the template without the LA as a capstone, the class becomes much more awesome.

[Greenish]

But, again, their spell list is simply the "Necro" section of the sorcerer/wizard list. NO other school.That's not true. They do not get all necromancy spells from sorc/wiz list, and they have a few spells from other schools, such as divination (Detect Magic/Undead), abjuration (Undetectable Alignment) and conjuration (Cloudkill), just to name a few.
Unless you want to be the best necromancer ever, you really would just be better off making a necromancy specialist wizard.Tier 1 classes tend to be better at everything, big surprise. DN is a very neat tier 3 fullcaster.

[Daftendirekt]

That's not true. They do not get all necromancy spells from sorc/wiz list, and they have a few spells from other schools, such as divination (Detect Magic/Undead), abjuration (Undetectable Alignment) and conjuration (Cloudkill), just to name a few.Tier 1 classes tend to be better at everything, big surprise. DN is a very neat tier 3 fullcaster.

Very true, but the few you listed are pretty much the exceptions. The fact remains that you're better off playing a necromancy-specialized wizard 95% of the time.

[Kalim]

Draconomicon does allow dragon skeletons of more than 20 HD. In fact, you can have great wyrm red dragon skeletons weighing in at 40HD!

I guess this reflects a limit to how strong a skeleton or zombie can be.

Why have a dragon skeleton, when a dragon zombie gets more health, can still fly, and retains a breath attack? :smallwink:

I'm playing a Dread Necromancer in a campaign right now, myself. I still have about thirteen levels to try and convince my DM how awesome it would be for me to get a pet Boneyard.

[kiryoku]

Lich Transformation: When a dread necromancer attains
20th level, she undergoes a hideous transformation and
becomes a lich. Her type changes to undead, and she gains all
the traits of the undead (see page 317 of the Monster Manual).
She no longer has a Constitution score, all her existing Hit
Dice become d12s, and she must reroll her hit points. A dread
necromancer need not pay experience points or gold to create
her phylactery.
A dread necromancer who is not humanoid does not gain
this class feature.

i think it says you become a lich and you cant be one if you dont take the templete but like you said it dosent give the +4 level adjustment

[Daftendirekt]

Yes, you become a lich flavor-wise because you've gotten most of the stuff the template gives you over the last 20 class levels. But you don't get the template. It's the whole point of the class to become a lich without gaining the template. What's complicated about that? Don't touch the template. When you hit level 20 in the class, change your type to undead and get d12 HD. That's all.

[kiryoku]

ok are you sure its not another epic communication on behalf of the developers they do that alot and word stuff wrong just asking and i think it says that because the lich template never says you get undead qualities so people didnt forget.

[Daftendirekt]

Playing a Dread Necromancer
"You hold the power of life and death in the palm of your hand (quite literally, albeit on a small scale at the start of your career). If your career continues as planned, you will survive forever as a lich. This destiny naturally makes you superior to less mortals who are doomed to molder in their crypts or shuffle about mindlessly as your animated minions..."

[kiryoku]

ok but that still looks like what i said i may be taking it the wrong way but ill ask if my dm will allow it

[Kalim]

ok but that still looks like what i said i may be taking it the wrong way but ill ask if my dm will allow it

It's the best way to handle it, each camp is going to be adamant that its view is correct. Only your DM can give you a straight answer, since they're running the game.

Mine says I get the template without the LA, since it's a class feature. It's basically the natural progression of all the other DN features, so I'm pretty happy about it.

Now I just need to survive to 20th!

[Greenish]

Very true, but the few you listed are pretty much the exceptions.There's a world of difference between "necromancy-focused list" and "only necromancy spells, no other school".

The fact remains that you're better off playing a necromancy-specialized wizard 95% of the time.Well, regardless of what you want to do, you'll have more versatility/power as a tier 1 class.

"A wizard is better" is hardly worth typing, let alone repeating.