Swordsage/Monk question

[Window459]

I have a player wanting to play a swordsage/monk eventually becoming a shadow sun ninja, and we were both wondering, does the swordsage and monks wisdom to ac bonus stack? I'm not seeing anything that says the don't but I just wanna be sure, thanks in advance

[senrath]

Due to poor editing, they don't. Monk's wis-to-ac requires no armor, while Swordsage's wis-to-ac requires Light armor.

If, as the GM, you want to change that to "Light or no armor" then they'd stat fine, as that's the only thing keeping them from stacking as is.

[Window459]

Due to poor editing, they don't. Monk's wis-to-ac requires no armor, while Swordsage's wis-to-ac requires Light armor.

If, as the GM, you want to change that to "Light or no armor" then they'd stat fine, as that's the only thing keeping them from stacking as is.

I think swordsage says something like when only in light or no armor then it gets the WIS to ac

edit: nvm your right, cruddy editing strikes again

[senrath]

But, yeah, other than that slight issue (and it is a slight issue since you're the DM), they would stack just fine.

[Window459]

yeah I'm fixing it cause it makes more sense if its both when in both light or no armor.

[RaggedAngel]

That is actually argueable; the ability is named "AC Bonus"; it is an ability found in the Monk, the Ninja, and the Swordsage. Typically abilities of the same name do not stack. Evasion + Evasion = Improved Evasion.

Additionally, you have to think of it from a flavor perspective, or RAI, when RAW fails you.

Monks have a special intuition, born of their training, that allows them to become in tune with the world around them, with the degree of their connection determined by their personal perception and insight. This connection allows them to better defend themselves in combat.

Ninjas have a special intuition, born of their training, that allows them to become in tune with the world around them, with the degree of their connection determined by their personal perception and insight. This connection allows them to better defend themselves in combat.


Swordsages have a special intuition, born of their training, that allows them to become in tune with the world around them, with the degree of their connection determined by their personal perception and insight. This connection allows them to better defend themselves in combat.

See why I don't think that they should stack?

[Window459]

That is actually argueable; the ability is named "AC Bonus"; it is an ability found in the Monk, the Ninja, and the Swordsage. Typically abilities of the same name do not stack. Evasion + Evasion = Improved Evasion.

Additionally, you have to think of it from a flavor perspective, or RAI, when RAW fails you.

Monks have a special intuition, born of their training, that allows them to become in tune with the world around them, with the degree of their connection determined by their personal perception and insight. This connection allows them to better defend themselves in combat.

Ninjas have a special intuition, born of their training, that allows them to become in tune with the world around them, with the degree of their connection determined by their personal perception and insight. This connection allows them to better defend themselves in combat.


Swordsages have a special intuition, born of their training, that allows them to become in tune with the world around them, with the degree of their connection determined by their personal perception and insight. This connection allows them to better defend themselves in combat.

See why I don't think that they should stack?

I think I see why but then again I see it as this, if two classes give you sneak attack, they stack, if two classes you give you a smite evil ability 9 times out of 10 they stack, so if two classes give you a AC bonus, why shouldn't they stack? I know that things like evasion and uncanny dodge justs go to the more powerful version if you already have them from another class when you gain them but there is no more power version of the AC bonus ability plus like you said it comes from their training, thus being a monk/swordsage the character did a lot a of training to learn do defend themselves so why shouldn't they get the ability to double use there wisdom score for ac. There are plenty of other class combinations that do the same thing, if i remember right one of them being the prestige class fist of the forest and some other class (cant think of its name right now) that you can eventually double dip con for ac.

[MeeposFire]

It was clarified in the FAQ that they do not stack. Their reasoning is suspect, I think, but that is the official answer.

[JaronK]

RAW, it doesn't stack because one works in Light Armor and one works in none. RAI, it doesn't stack because Custserv says so. Pick your reason.

JaronK

[FMArthur]

I would let their levels stack as far as progressing the additional bonuses go, but not for getting Wis to AC twice. That's for Monk/Ninjas though; Swordsages don't improve their AC bonus.

[GeminiVeil]

I did ask this question in the Q&A 3.5 RAW. I was told, by curmudgeon (apologies if he reads this and I either misquote or spelled his name wrong) that because one requires light armor and the other requires no armor, they don't stack. But, even assuming this is poor editing, since both are titled "AC bonus" they still wouldn't stack because it is multiple abilities of the same name, which also don't stack. (which is also why you can't use Fist of the Forests "AC bonus" ability to work with the monk, even though one applies Wis and the other applies Con)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Example 1: A Paladin of Freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny)/ Holy Liberator (CD) gets Divine Grace from both classes. Both grant his Cha bonus to saving throws. You could argue that he's twice as blessed by the gods, but the rules say that multiple unnamed bonuses from the same source don't stack.

Example 2: A Paladin of Tyranny (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny)/ Blackguard gets Aura of Despair from both classes. Each imposes a -2 penalty on opponents' saving throws. You could argue that his aura is twice as powerful, but the rules say that multiple unnamed bonuses or penalties from the same source don't stack.

Monk, Swordsage, and Ninja all grant an "AC Bonus" class feature. Each has slightly different details, but they all grant an unnamed bonus and all such class features have the same name. Thus, multiple unnamed bonuses from the same source do not stack. Sneak Attack is a bonus that increases by level, and gaining levels in multiple classes that grant it gives you a total bonus as though you were higher level. Similarly, a character who combines two or more of Monk, Swordsage, and Ninja should get his Wisdom bonus to AC only once, and at the most he would total the class levels for whatever additional bonus it grants (+1 per 5 total levels).

[sonofzeal]

I did ask this question in the Q&A 3.5 RAW. I was told, by curmudgeon (apologies if he reads this and I either misquote or spelled his name wrong) that because one requires light armor and the other requires no armor, they don't stack. But, even assuming this is poor editing, since both are titled "AC bonus" they still wouldn't stack because it is multiple abilities of the same name, which also don't stack. (which is also why you can't use Fist of the Forests "AC bonus" ability to work with the monk, even though one applies Wis and the other applies Con)
Curmudgeon has this odd thing about interpretting "same source" as "same name". I don't think a strict reading of the text supports him. You can read the full discussion here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180432).

However, I'd be hesitant about allowing players to "double dip" like this. Since the abilities are so similar, and a Monk1 dip offers so much for this character, it seems unreasonable to allow it. As DM you have final call. If you wanted to throw him a bone, you could add the Monk's static scaling bonus into the Swordsage's AC Bonus ability when unarmored, thus allowing him to get a few extra points of AC but not a full double-dipping.

[dextercorvia]

I did ask this question in the Q&A 3.5 RAW. I was told, by curmudgeon (apologies if he reads this and I either misquote or spelled his name wrong) that because one requires light armor and the other requires no armor, they don't stack. But, even assuming this is poor editing, since both are titled "AC bonus" they still wouldn't stack because it is multiple abilities of the same name, which also don't stack. (which is also why you can't use Fist of the Forests "AC bonus" ability to work with the monk, even though one applies Wis and the other applies Con)

I see the RAW, but since it is intended as a Monk or Barbarian Prestige class, I honestly think that FotF was supposed to stack with Monk.

[Daftendirekt]

Yeah, i think the fact that it does CON instead of WIS definitely means it stacks. Swordsage/monk/ninja all have the same thing in WIS to AC, so no, you don't get to add WIS 2 or 3 times, because it's the same source.

Comparing sneak attack to this is really foolish. RAW AND RAI say that SA dice stack; you get more dice as you progress through the class(es) that give(s) them to you.

[GeminiVeil]

Curmudgeon has this odd thing about interpretting "same source" as "same name". I don't think a strict reading of the text supports him. You can read the full discussion here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180432).

However, I'd be hesitant about allowing players to "double dip" like this. Since the abilities are so similar, and a Monk1 dip offers so much for this character, it seems unreasonable to allow it. As DM you have final call. If you wanted to throw him a bone, you could add the Monk's static scaling bonus into the Swordsage's AC Bonus ability when unarmored, thus allowing him to get a few extra points of AC but not a full double-dipping.

Wasn't saying I really agreed, but I can see the logic behind why he believes that, and no one disagreed with him when I posted in that thread.


I see the RAW, but since it is intended as a Monk or Barbarian Prestige class, I honestly think that FotF was supposed to stack with Monk.

That's kinda what I thought, too. But even though it doesn't say that it doesn't stack, it does refer back to the monk's ability, so somewhat implies that it doesn't stack at least.


Yeah, i think the fact that it does CON instead of WIS definitely means it stacks. Swordsage/monk/ninja all have the same thing in WIS to AC, so no, you don't get to add WIS 2 or 3 times, because it's the same source.

Comparing sneak attack to this is really foolish. RAW AND RAI say that SA dice stack; you get more dice as you progress through the class(es) that give(s) them to you.


Again, that's what I thought. :smallsmile: However, there are times when you can add the same source to the same thing, and still be legal. Like the Saint template adds WIS to AC, which does stack with the monk.

In the end, sounds like the advice is "Up to DM, but tread cautiously." :smallsmile: Which should always be the case, anyways.