Ranged Bard/Spymaster [3.5]

[true_shinken]

One of my players wants to be a half-elf Bard 5/Spymaster 1. Now, she is a new player. She doesn't want to be in the frontlines and eventually decided on using a bow. But we were kind of lost about what to do with her now.
Any suggestions on gear, feats and spell selection for such a character? Ranged Bards are way out of my area of expertise.

[hivedragon]

arcane archer

[true_shinken]

arcane archer

Thanks for the suggestion, but the character in question is a Bard/Spymaster. I'm looking for equipment, spells and feats. A dip in Arcane Archer is out of the question.

[Human Paragon 3]

Dip marshal for a minor aura, add CHA bonus to ranged attacks for you and your team!

[true_shinken]

Dip marshal for a minor aura, add CHA bonus to ranged attacks for you and your team!
As I mentioned before, dips are not an option at this point. But thanks nonetheless. I didn't even know Marshall's could do that.

[Daftendirekt]

Any suggestions on gear, feats and spell selection for such a character?

Yeah, dunno why you people keep listing PrCs.

For feats, I think all the standard PHB ones apply - Point Blank, Rapid, etc. But that should go without saying. Now, Spymaster gets some SA die, so maybe spells to make those easier to get/better would be handy.


Sniper's Shot; no range limit on next ranged sneak attack (sorc/wiz spell, but WTF are they going to do with it? Let the bard have it.) (CAdv)
Healer's Vision; +5 insight to Heal checks and extra healing, but namely +2 attack and damage with precision attacks (SA, SS and skirmish) (asn/cleric) (CSco)


Not seeing any bard spells. Guess WotC didn't expect bards to be fighting too much...Guess you'd have to houserule the ones I found or any others onto the bard's list.

[holywhippet]

She should make sure she takes the precise shot feat - otherwise she runs the risk of hitting allies in melee or takes a penalty. For spells she should have 4 level one spells and 3 level two spells for a level 5 bard. I'd take: charm person, disguise self, feather fall and sleep for level one spells. For level two spells I'd take: cure moderate wounds, heroism and summon monster II.

Those are spells from the SRD, there might be better ones in the splatbooks.

Is she really determined to play a half-elf? My preferred bard is a halfling for the bonuses they get to thrown weapons.

[CycloneJoker]

Dragonfire Inspiration with Pyroclastic heritage? With a Force Bow, or something. I'd suggest getting her to be a melee person, really. Give her a rapier and call her Femme (Please get the Ryuki reference). Explain to her that bards are best buffing, and need to be close to do it. Or just shoot near the enemy. Or just keep the +9 billion d6 to herself.

Also, give up the Suggestion music for Song of the Heart feat. And get Badge of Valor, Masterwork Lute. I'd also say to take Jack of all Trades at first level, and get her to use the Bardic Knack ACF, and take Knowledge Devotion at third or so, keep a good Int score, max out the one that'll be most useful in your campaign, and enjoy the fact that you're "trained" in every Knowledge, and don't have to waste skill points on the other Knowledges for decent results. Inspirational Boost and Improvisation are pretty sweet. Vest of Legends later on is a must, I'd say. If you're okay with it, I wouldn't be, and she's good, take Words of Creation to double your Inspire Courage. Also, take the Dead Eye feat, Dragon Compendium, that gives you Dex to damage within 30', and it was errata'd for +1 BAB. The 30' makes it good with the Inspire awesomeness.

Also, I'm pretty sure Marshal doesn't get you that.

[Zaq]

She's dead-set on half-elf? Being a Killoren (RotW) or Duskling (MoI) would give access to the awesome Charming the Arrow feat (CHA instead of DEX to projectile attacks; must be fey). Plus, you know, then she wouldn't be a half-elf, which is good because half-elves are terrible and to inflict one on a new player who doesn't know any better seems kinda wrong. (Hell, you could fluff a Killoren as one, if you put a little effort into it. It's important to teach new players about refluffing.)

Anyway, if she's unwilling to unshackle herself from half-elfdom, I'd say that basic buffs to Inspire Courage are the order of the day. IC works at range just as well as it does in melee, either with or without Dragonfire Inspiration. If your WBL allows it, a Precise (MIC) weapon is a great way to save having to blow a feat on Precise Shot.

[Daftendirekt]

A bit off-topic, but your mention of half-elf brought it up: Yes, 3.5 Half-Elf is god awful. Easily the worst core race, probably one of the worst period.

So how did it turn into arguably one of the best in 4e? XD

[CapnVan]

I guess the real question is why spymaster? It doesn't advance anything that's usually seen as best about the bard — no additional music, no new songs, no spellcasting advancement.

Sneak attack damage? For a bard-based build, not great, certainly given the trade-offs.

And every other class feature is either covered by glibness, maxed bluff, and/or another spell.

If she wants to be a spymaster, there's no need to take the actual class.

[true_shinken]

I guess the real question is why spymaster? It doesn't advance anything that's usually seen as best about the bard — no additional music, no new songs, no spellcasting advancement. (...)
And every other class feature is either covered by glibness, maxed bluff, and/or another spell. If she wants to be a spymaster, there's no need to take the actual class.
You're wrong. Spymaster is the best spy class there is because of cover identity. No magic goes through cover identity. No checks needed. Nothing. It just works.


She's dead-set on half-elf? Being a Killoren (RotW) or Duskling (MoI) would give access to the awesome Charming the Arrow feat (CHA instead of DEX to projectile attacks; must be fey). Plus, you know, then she wouldn't be a half-elf, which is good because half-elves are terrible and to inflict one on a new player who doesn't know any better seems kinda wrong.
She is a half-elf because half-elves are kind of important in my setting and it fits her backstory. I also gave them a power-up of sorts - a half-elf chooses a class skill and it becomes a class skill for them forever and they get a +2 to any skill checks tied to the ability score of that skill. They also lose their bonuses to Gather Information/Diplomacy.
No dusklings in my settings. And she has good Dex, no need for Charming the Arrow (a pretty bad feat if you're going ranged anyway, since you need Dex for feat requirements)

Hell, you could fluff a Killoren as one, if you put a little effort into it. It's important to teach new players about refluffing.
Not in my games. I only allow refluffing when it's really needed, such as a prc from another setting.


Dragonfire Inspiration with Pyroclastic heritage? With a Force Bow, or something. I'd suggest getting her to be a melee person, really. Give her a rapier and call her Femme (Please get the Ryuki reference). Explain to her that bards are best buffing, and need to be close to do it. Or just shoot near the enemy. Or just keep the +9 billion d6 to herself.
Not high level enough for those, unfortunatelly.


Also, give up the Suggestion music for Song of the Heart feat.
She only gets that at Bard 6 and hey - losing suggestion as a spy would be pretty bad, wouldn't it?

Also, take the Dead Eye feat, Dragon Compendium, that gives you Dex to damage within 30', and it was errata'd for +1 BAB. The 30' makes it good with the Inspire awesomeness.
Oh, Dead Eye. That should work.


Also, I'm pretty sure Marshal doesn't get you that.
Yeah, I thought so as well.

[Greenish]

Does Spymaster give proficiency in hand crossbow? If so, Hand Crossbow Focus & Crossbow Sniper is pretty decent combo.

[Edit]:

Sniper's Shot; no range limit on next ranged sneak attack (sorc/wiz spell, but WTF are they going to do with it? Let the bard have it.) (CAdv)
Updated in SC to work on all attacks for the turn. It's a first level spell, (chambered) wand & UMD should work okay.

[CycloneJoker]

You're wrong. Spymaster is the best spy class there is because of cover identity. No magic goes through cover identity. No checks needed. Nothing. It just works.


She is a half-elf because half-elves are kind of important in my setting and it fits her backstory. I also gave them a power-up of sorts - a half-elf chooses a class skill and it becomes a class skill for them forever and they get a +2 to any skill checks tied to the ability score of that skill. They also lose their bonuses to Gather Information/Diplomacy.
No dusklings in my settings. And she has good Dex, no need for Charming the Arrow (a pretty bad feat if you're going ranged anyway, since you need Dex for feat requirements)

Not in my games. I only allow refluffing when it's really needed, such as a prc from another setting.


Not high level enough for those, unfortunatelly.


She only gets that at Bard 6 and hey - losing suggestion as a spy would be pretty bad, wouldn't it?

Oh, Dead Eye. That should work.


Yeah, I thought so as well.

I'm pretty sure, as a human, I could start throwing around 2-4d6 sonic damage at level 3. 8d6 or more at level 6.


Also, why spymaster? Isn't it kinda bad? You could also use it as your level 6 feat, Song of the Heart, and she does have access to Charm and Suggestion, so losing suggestion might not be that bad.

[dextercorvia]

No one has mentioned Knowledge Devotion? Bards get all Knowledge skill in class. It is one of the best Archer feats, IMO.


She only gets that at Bard 6 and hey - losing suggestion as a spy would be pretty bad, wouldn't it?

Not really. The spell works just as well*, and is available 1 level later earlier.

*if you are PrC'ing out of bard.

[true_shinken]

Also, why spymaster? Isn't it kinda bad?
It's bad for combat, but the player wants to play a good spy.
She doesn't knwo it, but that single spymaster level well make their first 'mission' a lot easier.

[CycloneJoker]

It's bad for combat, but the player wants to play a good spy.
She doesn't knwo it, but that single spymaster level well make their first 'mission' a lot easier.

I'd say to get her back into bard after one level, since that's when you get the only decent thing in the class, IIRC, and Bard is good.

Also, get her a masterwork lute and later, the Vest of Legend. Both add to her bard level for music, by 1 and 5. Would make up for the loss of the level. And Dragonfire is the way to go.

Oh, hey, I think I just got a way to get infinite feats for a shuffle, by getting bonus feats from music, shuffle it off, drop and pick up the lute..

[true_shinken]

Not really. The spell works just as well*, and is available 1 level later earlier.
No, no, no. Bard's suggestion has the DC set as the result of a Perform check. At level 6, with a Charisma of 16, you're looking at d20+12 (without considering bonuses, such as from a masterwork instrument, circlet of persuasion and the like). And we use action points, so when you really need it, it's 1d20+1d6+12. With the spell, with the same Charisma 16, has a DC of onlt 15. And you spend a valuable level 2 spell slot for this - you get a lot more bardic music than spell slots. Bardi music suggestion >>> spell suggestion, IMHO.

[dextercorvia]

No, no, no. Bard's suggestion has the DC set as the result of a Perform check. At level 6, with a Charisma of 16, you're looking at d20+12 (without considering bonuses, such as from a masterwork instrument, circlet of persuasion and the like). And we use action points, so when you really need it, it's 1d20+1d6+12. With the spell, with the same Charisma 16, has a DC of onlt 15. And you spend a valuable level 2 spell slot for this - you get a lot more bardic music than spell slots. Bardi music suggestion >>> spell suggestion, IMHO.

That is Fascinate, which must be active before you make a suggestion. Suggestion bases its will save on 1/2 the bard level as follows.


A Will saving throw (DC 10 + ½ bard’s level + bard’s Cha modifier) negates the effect.

[true_shinken]

That is Fascinate, which must be active before you make a suggestion. Suggestion bases its will save on 1/2 the bard level as follows.

Man, I have been using that this way for years now. Maybe it was like that in 3.0? No matter, guess I'll just have to houserule it.

[CapnVan]

You're wrong. Spymaster is the best spy class there is because of cover identity. No magic goes through cover identity. No checks needed. Nothing. It just works.


I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.

Cover identity gives +4 bonus on Disguise and +2 on Bluff and Gather Information.

That's it. Absolutely nothing else.

You also get a permanent undetectable alignment. Of course, that's also a Bard 1 spell with a 24 hour duration. An eternal wand would take care of that.

Please do elaborate on the genius that is spymaster.

[Greenish]

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.The capstone of the PrC, Deep Cover.

Though I'm pretty sure there's a spell to do the same.

[CapnVan]

The capstone of the PrC, Deep Cover.

Ahh. I see.


Though I'm pretty sure there's a spell to do the same.

Mind Blank comes to mind.

But going through 7 levels of meh or worse to get mind blank?

As I said, glibness and bluff are a heck of a combo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html). And they don't waste 7 levels of additional spell-casting goodness.

[Greenish]

Mind Blank comes to mind.Well, it's not quite the same, and I can see the times you'd prefer Deep Cover.

I was actually thinking of Cloak of Khyber, but that's just because I had totally forgotten what it actually does. :smallredface:

[Roc Ness]

I can't find anything anywhere that says Dragonfire Inspiration doesn't work with ranged attacks. That's an easy +3d6 fire damage right there, and it only takes one extra standard action before battle for 5 turns of extra damage.

Although it may be a stretch getting the dragonblood subtype to qualify... :smallfrown:

[Greenish]

That's an easy +3d6 fire damage right there, and it only takes one extra standard action before battle for 5 turns of extra damage.Inspire Courage doesn't require concentration to maintain: you can sing and shoot the bow.


Although it may be a stretch getting the dragonblood subtype to qualify... :smallfrown:It's a feat or a subrace (forestlord half-elf).

[CycloneJoker]

I can't find anything anywhere that says Dragonfire Inspiration doesn't work with ranged attacks. That's an easy +3d6 fire damage right there, and it only takes one extra standard action before battle for 5 turns of extra damage.

Although it may be a stretch getting the dragonblood subtype to qualify... :smallfrown:

Only 3d6? I think you're doing it wrong.

Also, be Silverbrow. Or a kobold.

[Togo]

Magic item compendium has some good items for boosting inspire courage. They're in the back, in the magic item sets. Badge of valour, horn of resliance, and erm... bracers of the bloodmage.

I'd also recommend Versatile Performer, and then using the various masterwork instrument abilities in the Complete Adventurer.

The key to an archer bard is to get as many attacks as possible, to make the most of your attack and damage boosting. Rapid shot is worthwhile. Going the two-weapon fighting/thrown weapon route is very effective, but very feat-heavy and you mentioned you wanted to be an archer. If you're not allergic to hand-to-hand, snowflake Wardance can work well.

You also want to get your boosts as high as possible, so inspire courage and song of the heart are handy, as is the controvertial Word of Creation. 3rd eye surge is also a cheap and handy item.

Since you'll be gaining sneak attack, you may also want some way of sneak attacking. Invisibility, mithrilmist shirt, improved initiative feat all help in that regard.

And not to forget the items that make life easier. Hat of disguise, lyre of building, and almost any of the magical instruments including the various instruments of the bard, dove harp, and almost anything except drums of panic and harp of charming, both of which have too low a DC to be useful.

If your party is likely to have access to greater magic weapon, it can be worth getting a host of useful enchantments on your bow. My favourite is to combine bloodseeking and seeking, for the ability to shoot around corners, but don't forget weapon crystals, and the various 'utility' arrows, or the effectiveness of having a +1 weapon of spellstoring, just in case you need it.

[Piggy Knowles]

Check out Races of Destiny for the Soothing Voice ACF. It is more or less the best thing to ever happen to half-elves in 3.5, and it seems like it would fit this character's flavor well.

I happen to like Spymaster, although I agree it's not the best here. My favorite ability is its Magic Aura at will. Arcane Sight (and to a lesser extent Detect Magic) can be the bane of a stealth or intrigue based cheracter's existence, especially if permanencied. Being able to mask your buffs and all your magic items is quite nice.