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Amador
2011-02-20, 03:34 PM
Generally how do psionics and undead relate to each other? Is lichdom a valid route to immortality for psions?

Specifically Demiliches, they are immune to magic. Should they be made immune to psionics as well?

sonofzeal
2011-02-20, 03:36 PM
Psionics-Magic Transparency
Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications.

Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.)

All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa.

The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura).

Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.
Here you go. =)

Daftendirekt
2011-02-20, 03:39 PM
Generally how do psionics and undead relate to each other? Is lichdom a valid route to immortality for psions?

Specifically Demiliches, they are immune to magic. Should they be made immune to psionics as well?

O_O

Psionic Lich.

I want to do that.

dsmiles
2011-02-20, 03:44 PM
Here you go. =)I've always hated the Psionics-Magic Transparency. I prefer the Psionics Is Different option. Plus, there's a Psionic Lich somewhere. Maybe it was 2e. I can't exactly remember, but it proves that Psionics is a perfectly viable option for lichdom.

sonofzeal
2011-02-20, 03:50 PM
I've always hated the Psionics-Magic Transparency. I prefer the Psionics Is Different option. Plus, there's a Psionic Lich somewhere. Maybe it was 2e. I can't exactly remember, but it proves that Psionics is a perfectly viable option for lichdom.
The problem with "Psi is Different" is, unless Psi is equally prevalent, it gives them a huge advantage. Since Arcane/Divine is the norm, a Psion PC can blast straight through their defenses and have a huge advantage, while stocking up on common magical items to protect him from the mages. So unless your world has a somewhat even balance, I'd assume Transparency.

From a more fluff angle: we already have Divine-Arcane Transparency, would you prefer Divine Is Different instead?

sonofzeal
2011-02-20, 03:52 PM
(browser glitch, double post)

dsmiles
2011-02-20, 03:58 PM
The problem with "Psi is Different" is, unless Psi is equally prevalent, it gives them a huge advantage. Since Arcane/Divine is the norm, a Psion PC can blast straight through their defenses and have a huge advantage, while stocking up on common magical items to protect him from the mages. So unless your world has a somewhat even balance, I'd assume Transparency.

From a more fluff angle: we already have Divine-Arcane Transparency, would you prefer Divine Is Different instead?
I like to keep my magic and psionics different. In my particular campaign world, yes, psionics and magic are pretty equally prevalent. Perhaps there are more magic PCs than psionic PCs, but that doesn't mean that the world at large is out of balance one way or the other.

Starbuck_II
2011-02-20, 04:06 PM
I like to keep my magic and psionics different. In my particular campaign world, yes, psionics and magic are pretty equally prevalent. Perhaps there are more magic PCs than psionic PCs, but that doesn't mean that the world at large is out of balance one way or the other.

Yes, that means the Psionic ones are stronger unless you are treating SR=PR.

Now if you treat the Mindflayer as a psionic (the Monster manual ones are actually arcane/spell-like abilities).

dsmiles
2011-02-20, 04:09 PM
Yes, that means the Psionic ones are stronger unless you are treating SR=PR.Not so. An magic user (both arcane and divine) automatically bypasses PR, just like a psionics user automatically bypasses SR. In addition, there are spells in the XPH (and maybe some in CPsi) that deal specifically with psionics. There are also powers that deal specifically with magic. How does that make psionics more powerful?

sonofzeal
2011-02-20, 04:14 PM
I like to keep my magic and psionics different. In my particular campaign world, yes, psionics and magic are pretty equally prevalent. Perhaps there are more magic PCs than psionic PCs, but that doesn't mean that the world at large is out of balance one way or the other.
That can work then. I've just had bad experiences with it; I had a Psi PC I wanted to play, the DM didn't use Psi but absolutely insisted on Psi Is Different (against my repeated advice), and in the end it allowed me to completely blow away the last boss. That's a big part of my reason. If you as DM are fluent with both, and balance both in your gameworld already, it can work.

I'd still prefer Transparency though, as there are far more creatures with SR or magic immunity, that Psions could thus nuke straight out of the water.

dsmiles
2011-02-20, 04:20 PM
That can work then. I've just had bad experiences with it; I had a Psi PC I wanted to play, the DM didn't use Psi but absolutely insisted on Psi Is Different (against my repeated advice), and in the end it allowed me to completely blow away the last boss. That's a big part of my reason. If you as DM are fluent with both, and balance both in your gameworld already, it can work.

I'd still prefer Transparency though, as there are far more creatures with SR or magic immunity, that Psions could thus nuke straight out of the water.
I like to consider myself well-versed in both psionics and magic (though I'll admit that I'm more familiar with psionics). The only reason that there are far more creatures with SR or magic immunity is because of (yet another) oversight on WotC's part. I feel like they believe that psionics was a passing fad, and wouldn't catch on, so they didn't publish anything outside of the XPH and CPsi. Their fault, and I correct it by using creatures from third parties that profited on WotC's failures.

Kalaska'Agathas
2011-02-20, 04:20 PM
How do you handle/do you allow the StP Erudite, dsmiles?

dsmiles
2011-02-20, 04:22 PM
How do you handle/do you allow the StP Erudite, dsmiles?Unfortunatley, I haven't worked out that particular "bug." Until I homebrew a "fix" for the S2P Erudite in the Psionics is Different system, I don't allow it.

sonofzeal
2011-02-20, 04:25 PM
I like to consider myself well-versed in both psionics and magic (though I'll admit that I'm more familiar with psionics). The only reason that there are far more creatures with SR or magic immunity is because of (yet another) oversight on WotC's part. I feel like they believe that psionics was a passing fad, and wouldn't catch on, so they didn't publish anything outside of the XPH and CPsi. Their fault, and I correct it by using creatures from third parties that profited on WotC's failures.
Well, there was already a huge number of SR creatures around by the time Psi was printed. Also, with a few exceptions, they generally tried to make each book stand alone. MM3 doesn't presume that you have, say, Complete Arcane. And XPH doesn't presume that you have Heroes of Horror. Occasionally there will be one or two exceptions in an individual book (there's a few Psi comments made in LoM and ECS for example), but the default assumption is that the person using this book only has it and core, and this limits the amount of Psi content we might see.

Innis Cabal
2011-02-20, 04:32 PM
There are a lot less creatures with PR then there are with MR...so yes Psionics are actually stronger

dsmiles
2011-02-20, 04:34 PM
Well, there was already a huge number of SR creatures around by the time Psi was printed. Also, with a few exceptions, they generally tried to make each book stand alone. MM3 doesn't presume that you have, say, Complete Arcane. And XPH doesn't presume that you have Heroes of Horror. Occasionally there will be one or two exceptions in an individual book (there's a few Psi comments made in LoM and ECS for example), but the default assumption is that the person using this book only has it and core, and this limits the amount of Psi content we might see.And really, that's the problem. Sure they expanded the monster manual, but why not have another line of books that details psionic monsters? There's a whole bunch of us that use psionics, but WotC crippled us by not producing more psionics material. Thank god for S&S and Mongoose.

EDIT: @Innis Cabal: Only if you stick to WotC material, young grasshopper. :smallwink:

Keinnicht
2011-02-20, 04:40 PM
I like to consider myself well-versed in both psionics and magic (though I'll admit that I'm more familiar with psionics). The only reason that there are far more creatures with SR or magic immunity is because of (yet another) oversight on WotC's part. I feel like they believe that psionics was a passing fad, and wouldn't catch on, so they didn't publish anything outside of the XPH and CPsi. Their fault, and I correct it by using creatures from third parties that profited on WotC's failures.

It's more that they expect you to use psionic/magic transparency, since that's generally easier to balance. They also figured you could decide if a creature should have PR in addition to SR, or SR in addition to PR.

Also, I'm not sure if you can become a psionic lich by the RAW, but I'd definitely allow it. Although personally, I think something similar in concept but different from a lich would make more sense. For one thing, I could see psionic liches as being less likely to be evil than arcane/divine liches. An arcane or divine lich has used hideous magic/deals with dark gods to extend it's life. A psionic lich seems more like it'd be someone whose mental powers were so strong that they just refused to die and continued to hold their body together through force of will alone.

Hot damn, that's a good idea, I think I'm going to go do some homebrewing.

dsmiles
2011-02-20, 04:45 PM
It's more that they expect you to use psionic/magic transparency, since that's generally easier to balance. They also figured you could decide if a creature should have PR in addition to SR, or SR in addition to PR.However, by publishing the "Psionics is Different" option, they should have realized that people would use it and want support for it. Had they not published that option, Psionics-Magic Transparency would be the only rule, and they would have been justified by using the mentality that you mentioned. I'm 100% certain that I'm not alone in using third party sources to cover areas where WotC failed (and there's no shortage of those).

sonofzeal
2011-02-20, 04:46 PM
Also, I'm not sure if you can become a psionic lich by the RAW, but I'd definitely allow it.
By RAW, Transparency is in effect, and it works. The only requirement is "Caster Level", which maps via Transparency to "Manifester Level". No problems there.



However, by publishing the "Psionics is Different" option, they should have realized that people would use it and want support for it. Had they not published that option, Psionics-Magic Transparency would be the only rule, and they would have been justified by using the mentality that you mentioned. I'm 100% certain that I'm not alone in using third party sources to cover areas where WotC failed (and there's no shortage of those).
It's still a variant. I can't think of any variant that gets support.

Daftendirekt
2011-02-20, 04:48 PM
It's more that they expect you to use psionic/magic transparency, since that's generally easier to balance. They also figured you could decide if a creature should have PR in addition to SR, or SR in addition to PR.

Also, I'm not sure if you can become a psionic lich by the RAW, but I'd definitely allow it. Although personally, I think something similar in concept but different from a lich would make more sense. For one thing, I could see psionic liches as being less likely to be evil than arcane/divine liches. An arcane or divine lich has used hideous magic/deals with dark gods to extend it's life. A psionic lich seems more like it'd be someone whose mental powers were so strong that they just refused to die and continued to hold their body together through force of will alone.

Hot damn, that's a good idea, I think I'm going to go do some homebrewing.

Two points I'd like to make:

First, I think RAW doesn't touch on psionic characters becoming liches because when the MM1 lich was made psionics didn't really exist yet. I don't really see any DM who would allow 1) lich PCs and 2) psionics randomly not allowing a psionic lich.

Second, a different take on the idea of a psionic lich I had was this: (also, a justification for how a warforged psion could exist) Psion grew very powerful. So powerful that he figured out how to move his consciousness to a new body. So, he crafted himself a new one: strong, durable, METAL. Then, when his end was approaching due simply to old age, he moved into the new body. It could be an empty shell beforehand, it could be a golem that he merely took over.

dsmiles
2011-02-20, 04:52 PM
By RAW, Transparency is in effect, and it works. The only requirement is "Caster Level", which maps via Transparency to "Manifester Level". No problems there.Even without it, there is a Psionic Lich. I just have to dig it up.

Wait.

Got it. (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_TCKpreview) Not WotC, but it is 3.5 compatible.

Daftendirekt
2011-02-20, 04:56 PM
Even without it, there is a Psionic Lich. I just have to dig it up.

Wait.

Got it. (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_TCKpreview) Not WotC, but it is 3.5 compatible.

This brings up the Psionics Are Different thing very clearly:

"Arcane Spell Bane (Su): The bane of arcane magic, the mere presence of a psionic lich interferes with arcane spellcasting. Any arcane spell cast within 30 feet of a psionic lich requires a successful Concentration check, or the spell is lost. The Concentration check is versus a DC of 10 + 1/2 lich's HD + lich's Charisma modifier. Even if the standard option of psionics and magic affecting each other is being used, this effect interferes only with arcane spells (not psionics, other spell-like abilities, divine spells, etc.)."

Although it is weird that it specifies only arcane, not divine. Maybe Divine Is Different!

dsmiles
2011-02-20, 04:59 PM
This brings up the Psionics Are Different thing very clearlyI know. :smallbiggrin:

Psyren
2011-02-20, 05:00 PM
There is a Psionic Lich in Hyperconscious.

Officially, there is also the Spectral Savant from CPsi (though it's somewhat closer to a vampire.)

dsmiles
2011-02-20, 05:02 PM
There is a Psionic Lich in Hyperconscious.

Officially, there is also the Spectral Savant from CPsi (though it's somewhat closer to a vampire.)Mine came from If Thoughts Could Kill.

Daftendirekt
2011-02-20, 05:10 PM
If Thoughts Could Kill.

Oh, they can.

THEY. CAN.

http://www.beyondtherift.com/wiki/images/3/34/River-copy.jpg

I can kill you with my brain.

dsmiles
2011-02-20, 05:15 PM
I think this is what you're looking for, Annulus:
http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/2/20/febf0b30-a53b-4a56-82a6-d10ada9ef821.jpg:smallbiggrin:

Innis Cabal
2011-02-20, 05:18 PM
EDIT: @Innis Cabal: Only if you stick to WotC material, young grasshopper. :smallwink:

:smallconfused: Ya...you're point having to third party and house rule doesn't change the base of how it works. Young Grasshopper.

Daftendirekt
2011-02-20, 05:20 PM
I think this is what you're looking for, Annulus:
http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/2/20/febf0b30-a53b-4a56-82a6-d10ada9ef821.jpg:smallbiggrin:

<3

http://iworkfortheinternets.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/youwin1internets.jpg

EDIT: Also this:

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs38/f/2009/002/d/a/River_Tam_beats_up_everyone_by_deino_erd.png

I must make a psionic ninja now.

http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/River-Tam-Beats-Everyone-Up-firefly-543801_488_1016.jpg

dsmiles
2011-02-20, 05:26 PM
:smallconfused: Ya...you're point having to third party and house rule doesn't change the base of how it works. Young Grasshopper.No, my point is that there is more out there than the material that WotC deigned to publish on psionics (which, you have to admit, wasn't much). WotC is not the only source for 3.5 DnD compatible material. (Nor is it the most balanced, but that's a discussion for another thread.)

AugustNights
2011-02-20, 05:31 PM
Specifically Demiliches, they are immune to magic. Should they be made immune to psionics as well?

If Psionics are a supernatural ability, which they might not be, I'm not certain on the RAW of whether a psionic power or the ability to manifest them is a supernatural ability or not, but if it is the Demilich is immune to them.



Magic Immunity (Ex)

Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. A shatter spell affects a demilich as if it were a crystalline creature, but deals half the damage normally indicated. A dispel evil spell deals 3d6 points of damage (Fort save for half damage). Holy smite spells affect demiliches normally.

Even if Psionics were not explicitly a supernatural effect, the very inclusive nature of the Demilich's Magic Immunity ability would prompt me, as a DM, to offer them Psionic Immunity as well, even in a game without transparency.

dsmiles
2011-02-20, 05:35 PM
If Psionics are a supernatural ability, which they might not be, I'm not certain on the RAW of whether a psionic power or the ability to manifest them is a supernatural ability or not, but if it is the Demilich is immune to them.



Even if Psionics were not explicitly a supernatural effect, the very inclusive nature of the Demilich's Magic Immunity ability would prompt me, as a DM, to offer them Psionic Immunity as well, even in a game without transparency.I give "magic liches" the same psionic resistance that the "psionic lich" has to magic. (Previously posted by Annulus.)
But with transparency, psionics become spell-like abilities (if it's listed as a psi-like ability). Psionic creatures with manifester levels would be treated the same as creatures with caster levels. And some psionic creatures do have their abilities listed as supernatural abilities. It depends on the specific creature's entry.

Innis Cabal
2011-02-20, 05:39 PM
No, my point is that there is more out there than the material that WotC deigned to publish on psionics (which, you have to admit, wasn't much). WotC is not the only source for 3.5 DnD compatible material. (Nor is it the most balanced, but that's a discussion for another thread.)

It's not but so what? Dr. Pepper is not the only similarly flavored cola on the market. Does it mean that those are equal to Dr. Pepper? No...not really. A lot of 3rd party stuff is over powered and under playtested.

Yora
2011-02-20, 05:44 PM
I think this is what you're looking for, Annulus:
http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/2/20/febf0b30-a53b-4a56-82a6-d10ada9ef821.jpg:smallbiggrin:

Which brings us to the topic:
http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/174/marcus2.jpg

dsmiles
2011-02-20, 05:59 PM
It's not but so what? Dr. Pepper is not the only similarly flavored cola on the market. Does it mean that those are equal to Dr. Pepper? No...not really. A lot of 3rd party stuff is over powered and under playtested.
You should be more specific. WotC is just as guilty as the third party companies there. CoDzilla? Batman Wizard? Iot7V? Infinite Wish loops and chain Gating Solars? All WotC. All overpowered and under playtested.

The majority of non-WotC psionics stuff (which is primarily for Arcana Unearthed) is way more balanced than any of the aforementioned concepts. Granted, the Mongoose stuff get a little out of hand at times, but nothing like Pun-Pun (again, all WotC).

Innis Cabal
2011-02-20, 06:04 PM
Most of those things being theoretical in nature, requiring people to optimize when it's been proven and shown that most games don't actually go about that. None of this supports your argument what so ever.

dsmiles
2011-02-20, 06:14 PM
Most of those things being theoretical in nature, requiring people to optimize when it's been proven and shown that most games don't actually go about that. None of this supports your argument what so ever.Really? If the option exists, it is really not meant to be used? If it's not meant to be used, perhaps it shouldn't have been written in such an ambiguous manner, and under playtested by the company that wrote it. Overpowered and under playtested, isn't that the point? Had they playtested the system more, those options wouldn't be there for abuse, or there would have been some sort of errata about it.

Innis Cabal
2011-02-20, 06:24 PM
The difference is one is the off brand and one is the main brand. So you get a funny tasting cola every now and then..you deal with that. But when the whole 24 pack is sour what are you going to do? You have to throw it away, it wasn't like it was main brand or anything.


Without the analogy. Even if WoTC is sometimes broken by working to apply it to be broken, a lot of third party gear is broken without trying and thus isn't really a good way to prove anything about what you're trying to say.

Daftendirekt
2011-02-20, 06:28 PM
What are EITHER of you trying to prove? I think we can settle all of this thusly:

WotC didn't print very much psionic material, and kind of left it dangling. There's a lot of third-party psionic material. Use it at your own risk, which applies just the same to WotC material.

Starbuck_II
2011-02-20, 07:02 PM
It's not but so what? Dr. Pepper is not the only similarly flavored cola on the market. Does it mean that those are equal to Dr. Pepper? No...not really. A lot of 3rd party stuff is over powered and under playtested.

No, Dr. Thunder is just like Dr. pepper. Better even.

dsmiles
2011-02-20, 07:04 PM
No, Dr. Thunder is just like Dr. pepper. Better even.I'm not even sure where to go with that one. :smalltongue:

Daftendirekt
2011-02-20, 07:05 PM
No, Dr. Thunder is just like Dr. pepper. Better even.

Of course it's better. It's cheaper.

Don't forget Dr. Wow.

Innis Cabal
2011-02-20, 07:23 PM
No, Dr. Thunder is just like Dr. pepper. Better even.

Well that may be. But I find your argument shallow and pedantic. Shallow and pedantic.

sonofzeal
2011-02-20, 08:02 PM
Dr. Pepper is not the only similarly flavored cola on the market.
The United States Fifth District Court in Dallas has officially ruled that Dr Pepper is not a cola.

...


....that is all.

Daftendirekt
2011-02-20, 08:12 PM
Well that may be. But I find your argument shallow and pedantic. Shallow and pedantic.

Mmmmmnnnyes. Shallow and pedantic.

http://images2.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/4041061/I-find-it-quite-shallow-and-pedantic.jpg?imageSize=Medium&generatorName=Pretentious-Philosoraptor

dsmiles
2011-02-20, 08:21 PM
The United States Fifth District Court in Dallas has officially ruled that Dr Pepper is not a cola.

...


....that is all.Did not know that. You learn something new every day.