How important is reach for a melee Scout? [3.5, E6]

[Zaq]

So I'm making a melee Scout as a backup character for my E6 campaign, and I'm not sure if I want to bother with a reach weapon. See, a reach weapon is nice because you can basically circle-strafe people (that is, you can move and attack the same foe, thereby ensuring that you get Skirmish or even Improved Skirmish even if you only have one target or need to focus fire). The problem is that the only reach weapon that can be finessed is the spiked chain (and the whip, but let's not go there), and if I can avoid spending a feat on that sort of thing, I'd like to. I'm pretty feat-starved no matter what road I go down (yes, I know that feats are eventually plentiful in E6, but we're not there yet and I want to be useful before then), but I'm just not sure if opting out of the spiked chain is going to be a good idea or a bad idea. I do wish that the longspear had the option of being finessable, since I don't really care much about threatened area (I'm not going for an AoO-monkey build; not only do we already have one, but I've also played an AoO-heavy Scout in another game and I want to try something different).

So, in short, how sad am I going to be if I want to be a melee Skirmish-user without a reach weapon? My current most likely pick for race is Neraph, so if there are any martial reach weapons that can be finessed, I'm all ears . . . that said, I don't think there are any, which kinda sucks. Thoughts?

[Daftendirekt]

The problem is that the only reach weapon that can be finessed is the spiked chain (and the whip, but let's not go there), and if I can avoid spending a feat on that sort of thing, I'd like to. I'm pretty feat-starved no matter what road I go down

Fortunately, there is a superior spiked chain called the kusari-gama, and Rokugan Ninja gets free proficiency in it. Rokugan ninja is even a very good 1 level dip besides that: 1d6 of sneak attack, +1 BAB, +2 will save, free Dodge-feat equivalent.

Kusari-gama - 10gp, 1d6/1d4, x2 crit, 3 lbs., slashing/bludgeoning accordingly. "Can be used as double weapon or reach weapon, etc..." like spiked chain. Can be used for trip attacks, as well as disarm. Gives +2 to disarm. Can be finessed.

[Shade Kerrin]

Kusari-gama - 10gp, 1d6/1d4, x2 crit, 3 lbs., slashing/bludgeoning accordingly. "Can be used as double weapon or reach weapon, etc..." like spiked chain. Can be used for trip attacks, as well as disarm. Gives +2 to disarm. Can be finessed.

Glad to see you quoted the right one. Sorry, always have to comment on it.

Problem here is that it is exotic(and for good reason), which might be a problem if he doesn't want to dip.

By the numbers, all you have really lost is the ability to 'circle-strafe.' Never played an E6 game, so I don't know what kind of WBL problems there might be for this idea, but that could be covered by a magic gauntlet from MIC that gives a +10ft to reach 3/day.

[Zaq]

Glad to see you quoted the right one. Sorry, always have to comment on it.

Problem here is that it is exotic(and for good reason), which might be a problem if he doesn't want to dip.

By the numbers, all you have really lost is the ability to 'circle-strafe.' Never played an E6 game, so I don't know what kind of WBL problems there might be for this idea, but that could be covered by a magic gauntlet from MIC that gives a +10ft to reach 3/day.

You're correct in that I really don't want to dip. The Greatreach Bracers sadly don't exist, since in our campaign the CL 6 limit is a hard limit that simply can't be broken, and the Greatreach Bracers have a CL of 7.

If I can find a martial finessable reach weapon, that'll work. I don't think there are any out there, though.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

There is also a feat: Companion Guard Style: allows you to use Dex to attack with longsword, longspear, and gives a +2 to confirm crits with a longbow. you gotta be an elf though... from Greyhawk, if I remember rightly.

[Cerlis]

well i think the only issue is avoiding being attacked completely (and with large creatures you wouldnt be able to attack with a reach weapon without being attacked yourself)

Just have ranks in tumble and you can keep using skirmish, and keep your ac good.

[Daftendirekt]

A fun way to use reach is this. Guy did it with a rogue in our group once:

Longspear (or any standard simple/martial reach weapon) as your main. And spiked gauntlets. Having them on makes you count as armed with a weapon, so if they move in to disable your reach, they're technically moving through your threatened area and you get to try and punch them in the face.

[Zaq]

While some of the advice being given here is good, it's also totally missing the point.

I don't really care about keeping my threatened area large. I'm not planning to take Combat Reflexes or Improved Trip or any of the other big AoO feats. I'm also not too worried about my ability to stay mobile . . . a Scout without maxed Tumble is doing something wrong, after all. The big thing that having reach will allow me to do is keep getting Skirmish and Improved Skirmish even if I want to focus fire on just one enemy.

I'm probably just going to suck it up and blow the feat on getting some stupid chain-style weapon. I just wish I didn't have to.

[Human Paragon 3]

I don't see the need for reach. Why not just tumble around them, or through their square to get your 10 feet of movement?

[Zaq]

I don't see the need for reach. Why not just tumble around them, or through their square to get your 10 feet of movement?

Mostly because I want to use Improved Skirmish, which requires 20 feet of movement. Unless, of course, someone can offer a compelling reason not to? It seems like a no-brainer overall, though. +2d6 and +2 AC is really nice at level 6.

[Human Paragon 3]

Dip barbarian for fast movement. Congratulations, you now tumble 20 feet! Substitute rage for the way cooler and scout-like cityscape rage variant. Better than wasting a feat on spiked chain IMO.

[Zaq]

Scout already gives a moment increase. Moving 20 feet isn't a problem. Moving 20 feet and still being able to attack the dude I attacked last round in melee (whether or not my target moved) is the issue.

I suppose I could aim toward Spring Attack, which isn't godawful on an E6 Scout. Then I wouldn't have to end near my target, so I'd be more likely to always get a running start, so to speak. Still a ton of feats, of course, but . . . hmmm.

[Human Paragon 3]

Qualifying for spring attack means qualifying for elusive target--and that's good eats.

[dextercorvia]

If you focused on Strength rather than Dexterity, you could spend the feat you are saving in Weapon Finesse on the EWP:Spiked Chain. You wouldn't care that it is finesseable at that point, just that it is the best reach weapon. Is there any need to a high Dex for a scout if you aren't doing archery/TWF?

[Zaq]

AC and skills, really. Reflex saves and initiative aren't going to hurt either, but it's mostly the AC and skills that I'm interested in. Basically, if I have Weapon Finesse, I don't have to put STR above 10. With or without Weapon Finesse, though, I still want nontrivial DEX. STR can be replaced; DEX can't.

Now that I think about the numbers a bit, here's what the two most likely sets would be (we use a wacky 33 point buy; no, I don't know why either. Assume +1 point for level 4):

Without STR:

STR 10
DEX 17 + 1
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 14
CHA 8

With STR:

STR 15 + 1
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 13
WIS 12
CHA 8

So, going for STR would cost me a point of DEX bonus (dropping AC, Ref, init, and my most important skills), a point of to-hit (since I can't really afford an 18), a point of WIS bonus (hurting spot, listen, and Will), and a point of INT bonus (keeping Combat Expertise, but losing a total of 9 skill points, which hurts on a skill-heavy class like a Scout). Going for Finesse seems like a no-brainer, statwise. I just wish it were only a single feat tax instead of two feats.

There's seriously not a single martial reach weapon that can be finessed? Sigh.