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Waker
2011-02-21, 01:06 AM
Bit of a quandary. I've seen several PrCs that have the requirement of Bardic Music and was somewhat curious about acquiring said skill without actually taking a level of Bard. Can anyone suggest a base class or PrC that grants Bardic Music?

By the by, I am aware that you could possibly use Purple Dragon Knight's Inspire Courage to qualify for War Chanter.

dextercorvia
2011-02-21, 01:30 AM
Initiate of Miliil with Extra Music arguable does it. Virtuoso gains a Bardic Music class ability, and doesn't require anything bard specific to get in. (10 ranks in perform (any) is the hardest. The Harmonious Knight ACF is sometimes used, but that is a bit dodgy as it isn't actually a Bardic Music ability.

CycloneJoker
2011-02-21, 01:30 AM
Vest of Legend or a Masterwork Lute could, depending on how you look at it. They give you extra Bard levels, but it doesn't say you need Bard levels.

Amnestic
2011-02-21, 01:33 AM
Vest of Legend or a Masterwork Lute could, depending on how you look at it. They give you extra Bard levels, but it doesn't say you need Bard levels.


In addition, a vest of legends enhances bardic music
abilities when a bard wears it. Her bard level is treated as
five higher than it actually is for the purpose of determining
the effects of her inspire courage, fascinate, inspire
greatness, and inspire heroics abilities. This increase in
effective level does not grant her any additional bardic
music abilities or other class features.

I don't think that one's gonna work :smalltongue:

Waker
2011-02-21, 01:33 AM
Ah yes, I suppose I should add the further stipulation that you gain Bardic Music as a class/racial ability or if there is some feat that grants it. I want to avoid items that grant it.

CycloneJoker
2011-02-21, 01:38 AM
I don't think that one's gonna work :smalltongue:

Meh, you're right. Lute still works, though.

Amnestic
2011-02-21, 01:43 AM
Meh, you're right. Lute still works, though.

'fraid not.



Bardic Music: A bard playing a lute is treated as one level higher for the purpose of adjudicating the power of his bardic music effects.

Sorry. :smalltongue:

Daftendirekt
2011-02-21, 01:45 AM
Is a 1-level dip in Bard really so awful? What kind of character would be musically inclined enough for you to want Bardic Music, but something-else enough for you to not want to be a bard?

MeeposFire
2011-02-21, 01:47 AM
Bit of a quandary. I've seen several PrCs that have the requirement of Bardic Music and was somewhat curious about acquiring said skill without actually taking a level of Bard. Can anyone suggest a base class or PrC that grants Bardic Music?

By the by, I am aware that you could possibly use Purple Dragon Knight's Inspire Courage to qualify for War Chanter.

Do you have a specific build in mind? If you do then telling us may help us narrow our search.

CycloneJoker
2011-02-21, 01:49 AM
'fraid not.



Sorry. :smalltongue:

I appear to have a terrible memory for things is skimmed through. I thought I was better than this :smallfrown:

dextercorvia
2011-02-21, 01:50 AM
It's not really no bard, but a 1 level dip in Prestige Bard, would do it. It's roughly the same as a Virtuoso dip or Bard dip, but it gets you IC, and adds the bard spells to your existing list, so you can grab glibness, inspirational boost, improvisation, et. al.

Waker
2011-02-21, 01:53 AM
It's not like I dislike the Bard or anything, I just wanted to see if there was a way to do it. I didn't have anything specific in mind, more of a random thought.
But for a specific thing to help narrow it down a bit, I'll say the Sublime Chord is the PrC to be gained and the spellcasting class to be advanced would be any arcane class with less than full spellcasting (Hexblade, Assassin, Trapsmith and so on.)

MeeposFire
2011-02-21, 02:12 AM
Here is one way that I tried using with ultimate magus

Wizard6/Alienist1/Loremaster2/virtuoso1/sublime chord1/ultimate magus 9

No bard sublime chord entered. Did you know loremaster has perform as a class skill?

Waker
2011-02-21, 02:20 AM
Here is one way that I tried using with ultimate magus

Wizard6/Alienist1/Loremaster2/virtuoso1/sublime chord1/ultimate magus 9

No bard sublime chord entered. Did you know loremaster has perform as a class skill?
A very curious build. It does seem that Virtuoso is the only answer, but someone may surprise me yet.
And offhand I did not recall that Loremaster had perform as a class skill, but it is good to know. Now I can fulfill my dream of having a Disco Dancing Wizard.

MeeposFire
2011-02-21, 02:31 AM
It was an attempt at getting 9th level spontaneous and 9th level prepared spells. I got close but unfortunately failed. I had 9th and 8th.

I also had a divinebard1/wiz9/sublime chord1/UM9 build but that had non standard bard in it.

Waker
2011-02-21, 02:36 AM
I am curious though, why did you include Alienist in the build? Perhaps I'm missing it because I'm tired, but it seems like it doesn't really bring anything to the table and in fact limits your summoning options by only allowing you to summon pseudonatural creatures.

MeeposFire
2011-02-21, 02:40 AM
I am curious though, why did you include Alienist in the build? Perhaps I'm missing it because I'm tired, but it seems like it doesn't really bring anything to the table and in fact limits your summoning options by only allowing you to summon pseudonatural creatures.

Had to find a full caster prc that gave listen as a class skill. This build uses able learner and that is the only way to get the listen skill points in time as far as I could find.

T.G. Oskar
2011-02-21, 05:54 AM
Two out of the three ways I recall have been mentioned, but I'll elaborate just for the heck of it. Aside from dipping Bard, of course.

First is Virtuoso; pretty easy to enter (and if in doubt, Ruathar from Races of the Wild is an easy entry PrC which grants pretty much all you need to enter Virtuoso from just about any class aside from the need of arcane magic), grants Bardic Music without the need of having classes, and you can use it later on to progress your virtuoso performances and getting extra casting levels out of Sublime Chord.

Second is Initiate of Milil, but that only works on clerics or paladins. The wording never specifies you really need to have bardic music; it grants you the ability as a bard of a level equal to the sum of bard, cleric and paladin levels but not the uses of bardic music. With Extra Music you get the daily uses, but Extra Music needs bardic music, so it would be the same case with the Dragon Disciple capstone. If going that path (and trying to use Paladin), going Harmonious Knight helps when using Inspire Courage. Generally, Paladin 5/Knight of the Weave 4/Ruathar 1/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Ruathar +2 gives you 9th level spells and IIRC also BAB 16, without a need for Bard or Sorcerer levels. Might be a bit wrong on that one.

Third, though, and one not mentioned, is Warrior Skald from Races of Faerun. There's a bit of a catch with that one, because Races of Faerun has a bit of the same problem with Book of Vile Darkness and Book of Exalted Deeds, which are transition books between 3.0 and 3.5, and thus the reading of Bardic Music doesn't fit. With a bit of a fix, it's not a bad way to get bardic music since it also grants full BAB and IIRC also proficiency with all martial weapons, so it aids a lot if becoming a gish.

Aside from that, beats me. The best way is indeed a dip in Bard, because you get 6+Int skill points, actual bardic music and bard spellcasting which is pretty good. It does beg the question; why no Bard levels? If it's because of Paladin, remember Devoted Performer stacks both classes, and if you combine that with Initiate of Milil and Harmonious Knight you get a pretty solid use of bardic music (with Extra Music and probably Vest of Legends as well).

Prime32
2011-02-21, 08:44 AM
There's a paladin ACF (Harmonious Knight) which trades Detect Evil for Inspre Courage.

One classic build is Bard 1/Monk 2/Paladin 17 with Ascetic Knight, Devoted Performer and Initiate of Milil. BAB +19, 18th-level bardic music uses/options, 19th-level unarmed damage, smite evil damage as an lv20 paladin. Also you add dispel silence, harmony and reveille to your paladin spell list.

EDIT: Harmonious Knight theoretically lets you take Devoted Performer and Initiate of Milil without a bard level (your 20 paladin levels stack with your 0 bard levels, resulting in 20th-level bardic music).


Perform (oratory) probably fits best here flavourfully, though a build with monk levels might use Perform (dance). And Snowflake Wardance while he's at it.

Chilingsworth
2011-02-21, 08:57 AM
What book is the Vest of Ledgends in, and is it a Set item?

Keld Denar
2011-02-21, 09:53 AM
DMGII, and no, its not a set item.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-21, 11:00 AM
Is a 1-level dip in Bard really so awful? What kind of character would be musically inclined enough for you to want Bardic Music, but something-else enough for you to not want to be a bard?

Sublime Chord.

If you're playing the Sublime Chord/Ur Priest/Mystic Theurge game, you need to shave the dips required to the minimum. Or at least, you really want to do so.


Had to find a full caster prc that gave listen as a class skill. This build uses able learner and that is the only way to get the listen skill points in time as far as I could find.

Human Paragon. Sacrifices one CL, but gives you a bonus feat and +2 to stat of your choice. While in it, you pick your own 10 class skills, and get to designate one skill as a class skill forever, regardless of class. I highly recommend it for cheesing skill requirements. Depending on when you take levels, you could even free up your loremaster levels. Not that loremaster is bad, mind you, but sometimes the added flexibility is worth it.

Grim Reader
2011-02-21, 11:22 AM
It was an attempt at getting 9th level spontaneous and 9th level prepared spells. I got close but unfortunately failed. I had 9th and 8th.

I also had a divinebard1/wiz9/sublime chord1/UM9 build but that had non standard bard in it.

Use the Spontaneus Diviner Wizard to take the first level of Ultimate Magus before you go Sublime Chord. I had a 9/9 build like that once. Not that it was any more powerful than stright Wizard or Sorcerer 20, quite the opposite.

Waker
2011-02-21, 02:31 PM
Aside from that, beats me. The best way is indeed a dip in Bard, because you get 6+Int skill points, actual bardic music and bard spellcasting which is pretty good. It does beg the question; why no Bard levels? If it's because of Paladin, remember Devoted Performer stacks both classes, and if you combine that with Initiate of Milil and Harmonious Knight you get a pretty solid use of bardic music (with Extra Music and probably Vest of Legends as well).
As I said, I have nothing against the Bard class. It's just that most PrCs have general requirements like a list of skills and feats or the ability to cast a certain level of spells, but then you have a few PrCs that require a class ability that can be gained only through taking levels in this one base class. But unlike say Rage/Frenzy, which I believe a few races have, Bardic Music is not surprisingly limited almost exclusively to Bards. I mean, even classes that seem built for say a Paladin or Monk can usually be entered via different classes. So I just wanted to see if there was a way to circumvent this. To me it was just a question I couldn't answer by myself.

MeeposFire
2011-02-21, 11:22 PM
Sublime Chord.

If you're playing the Sublime Chord/Ur Priest/Mystic Theurge game, you need to shave the dips required to the minimum. Or at least, you really want to do so.



Human Paragon. Sacrifices one CL, but gives you a bonus feat and +2 to stat of your choice. While in it, you pick your own 10 class skills, and get to designate one skill as a class skill forever, regardless of class. I highly recommend it for cheesing skill requirements. Depending on when you take levels, you could even free up your loremaster levels. Not that loremaster is bad, mind you, but sometimes the added flexibility is worth it.

Human paragon would have worked for the skill but I needed every caster level.

Cerlis
2011-02-21, 11:37 PM
A rare bard might display a special link to nature and the mysterious world of the fey. Such characters tend to be more aloof and less inspiring than standard bards.

Gain: Animal companion (as druid), nature sense (as druid), resist nature's lure (as druid), wild empathy (as druid).

Lose: Bardic knowledge, inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, inspire heroics.


from unearthed arcana. If the creators feel that such features are equivical. then a druid with bardic knowledge and those particular bardic music (not facinate isnt there or suggestion) should be balanced.

I checked for other things real quick (cus if another class varient has say, trade X abilities for L abilities (the Druid ones listed above), then by A=b=c-> a=c a class with X abilities could have B abilities where B is the bard abilities listed above.