Inventing loophole? [M&M 2e]

[SilverLeaf167]

The Inventing rules in the core book set a strict limit that you have to make checks with a DC equal to 10 + invention's PP cost. With this rule in existance, is there any reason that someone wouldn't just build multiple weaker devices instead to bypass this limit on the cost? It takes the same amount of time, after all.

[Roog]

Sure, if you are making them beforehand and multiple weaker devices will do the job. There are a number of factors to consider.

The way power rules work also means that it is often cheaper in terms of power points to make a single device/ritual that effects a number of characters rather than to make duplicates for each each of them. E.g Adding Affects Others and Progression or Area to a Mind Shield will cost less power points (and thus take less time to build) than making 3 or more individual Mind Shields.

Jury-rigging costs 1 hero point per item, so you wont be creating multiple weaker devices in a hurry.

Magical Rituals take 10 minutes per power point to cast, so multiple small rituals will have a minimum of a 10 minute gap between their castings.

Also it's quite likely that you will only be able to create devices/rituals once you know the circumstances in which they will be used, so creating devices during down time may not be terribly helpfull.

Although it’s possible to prepare certain one-use devices in advance, the GM should carefully enforce the guidelines for having items on-hand (see page 133). If an inventor wants to have a particular previously-constructed invention on-hand during an adventure, the GM should require the player to spend a hero point.

[Ravens_cry]

Breaking M&M is easy. It even tells you how to do so, the agreement being that you don't, savvy?

[Tengu_temp]

M&M is full of loopholes because it assumes that people are playing this game for fun, not to break the system, and that the DM will simply say "no" when faced with an outrageous build that clearly abuses the rules. So instead of designing everything in a loophole-free manner, the game focuses on giving you a lot of options and being fun and balanced when nobody tries to break the system. If only more RPGs followed that line of thinking...

[SilverLeaf167]

I know, I usually try to avoid gamebreakers :P
Whenever I build a gadgeteer or battle suit, I just can't help but wonder how the heck have they built those permanent devices they obtain during character creation. I tend to fluff it as combining multiple inventions, which brought me to think about whether you can actually do it.

[Tengu_temp]

Doesn't the game say that if you spend the appropriate amount of points, an invention can become a permanent device?

[The Rose Dragon]

If only more RPGs followed that line of thinking...

It wouldn't work for all systems, however. It works for generic systems like GURPS, M&M, All Flesh Must Be Eaten (which uses Unisystem, which bears mentioning for a later point), Tri-Stat dX, because those are designed with an eye towards flexibility. They are toolboxes and raw materials, not end products. It is assumed that you will not use all of what's given for your own game. It doesn't work for systems designed around a setting, such as World of Darkness, Exalted, D&D 3rd Edition (which is designed around Greyhawk, and only shoehorned into other settings, though Eberron is a special case where the setting is specifically designed around the system, rather than vice versa), Witchcraft (which also uses Unisystem, but a lot of different options than All Flesh Must Be Eaten to facilitate its specific setting), because they are expected to give all options available in the setting and only options available in the setting. The cracks appear quickly when you try to make them work for anything else (hello, d20 Modern!).

[Tengu_temp]

I don't see why being setting-specific means the game can't offer you a lot of options and focus on being fun and balanced when nobody tries to break the system, as opposed to defining everything in an incredibly precise way in order to avoid potential loopholes.

[The Rose Dragon]

Different expectations. For all its "vaunted" imbalance and "paranoia" combat, Exalted's version of Storyteller is not actually a terrible, irreparable system - just not one that fits the details and expectations of the setting it is built to emulate. It certainly has some parts that are horrible period, but most of the problematic parts are only problematic because they don't mesh well with the setting as presented. To give an example, Obsidian Shards of Infinity is not irrecoverably bad on a pure crunch level. Sure, it creates effectively immortal Sidereals, but that is only bad because Sidereals in the setting are not supposed to be invulnerable to Solars. M&M has no problematic parts in its prepackaged setting, because it has no prepackaged setting, therefore no one expects the options to be limited by the prepackaged setting, therefore they can afford to cherry pick from the options given. If M&M came prepackaged with a setting where solitary superheroes always beat duplicators, but there were no limits on Duplication as a power to ensure that they could not get a full power suite on top of Duplication, Duplication would be problematic. As it stands, it is not, since no one really expects Duplication to be worse than Perception-Range Blast, even though they cost the same.