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hopelesst
2011-02-21, 01:26 PM
So I dropped into an all-human lvl2 game the other day and was trying to think of an interesting character to run and decided that a LG Rogue would be fun. I spat out a quick outline about birth defects leading to hyper-mobile joints and ridicule. Character was taken in by a cleric of Cuthbert and started robbing other churches for him.

Kinda weak, but there's some potential there. After some research I stumbled across the Sacred Outlaw feat from Dragon #357
Your devotion to your deity continues to grow, even when you choose to familiarize yourself with more worldly pursuits.
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +2d6, ability to turn or rebuke undead.
Benefit: Your cleric and rogue levels stack for the purpose of determining your turning check and turning damage. For example, a 3rd-level cleric/4th-level rogue turns or rebukes undead as a 7th-level cleric.
Your cleric and rogue levels also stack for the purpose of determining your sneak attack bonus damage. For example, a 3rd-level cleric/4th-level rogue deals +4d6 points of damage on a successful sneak attack.
Special: Deities most likely to accept Sacred Outlaw: Beshaba, Cyric, Gargauth, Hoar, and Mask

Rogue3/Cloistered Cleric X means I hit +10d6 Sneak Attack and have lvl9 spells at 20th.

I've been trying to figure out how to make the best of this and so far I've come up with the following:
Rogue 2/Cloistered Cleric 1/Rogue +1/Cloistered Cleric +7/Contemplative 1/Cloistered Cleric +8

01 - Rogue 1 - *Able Learner, *Weap.Finesse; Trapfinding; SA +1d6
02 - R 2 - Evasion
03 - Cloistered Cleric 1 - *OPEN FEAT; Knowledge Devotion (Domain Swap), Time & Planning Domains; CL 1
04 - R 3 - [ACF]Penetrating Strike; *+1 ABILITY*; SA +2d6
05 - CC 2 - CL 2
06 - CC 3 - Sacred Outlaw; CL 3; SA +3d6
07 - CC 4 - CL 4; SA +4d6
08 - CC 5 - *+1 ABILITY*; CL 5
09 - CC 6 - *OPEN FEAT; CL 6; SA +5d6
10 - CC 7 - CL 7
11 - CC 8 - CL 8; SA +6d6
12 - Contemplative 1 - *OPEN FEAT; *+1 ABILITY*; Celerity Domain; CL 9
13 - CC 9 - CL 10
14 - CC 10 - CL 11; SA +7d6
15 - CC 11 - *OPEN FEAT; CL 12
16 - CC 12 - *+1 ABILITY*; CL 13; SA +8d6
17 - CC 13 - CL 14
18 - CC 14 - *OPEN FEAT; CL 15; SA +9d6
19 - CC 15 - CL 16
20 - CC 16 - *+1 ABILITY*; CL 17; SA +10d6

I've got 5 open feats and a lot of things I want to do with them. I'd like to focus the character around upping his initiative through Items and high Dex, and really bring the Domain themes to bear though his personality and actions. Shadow Strike, Persistent Spell, Silent Spell, Quicken Spell, Divine Metamagic (not sure which one yet), and Sudden Quicken all look great to me. But in the interest of SAD it might be a good idea to drop Weap.Finesse and look at the PBS/Rapidshot tree.

Is there any way to somehow get +2d6 Sneak Attack in few than 3 levels so that I get some more lvl9 slots?

I feel like this character is a great idea, but I'm not sure about where I've gone so far. Any help you could offer would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Zaq
2011-02-21, 01:33 PM
There's always Assassin's Stance for 2d6 sneak attack. Requires initiator level 5, so that's 10 levels of non-Swordsage classes. Take Martial Study for a Shadow Hand maneuver, then take Martial Stance for Assassin's Stance any time at or after 10th level.

Cog
2011-02-21, 02:39 PM
There's always Assassin's Stance for 2d6 sneak attack. Requires initiator level 5, so that's 10 levels of non-Swordsage classes. Take Martial Study for a Shadow Hand maneuver, then take Martial Stance for Assassin's Stance any time at or after 10th level.
Cloistered 6 / Swordsage 2 / Cloistered +X isn't so bad either. Wis to AC in light armor is all the better for sneaking about, and you'll get actual maneuvers and another stance.

Keld Denar
2011-02-21, 02:45 PM
Halfling Rogue Racial Sub (Races of the Wild) gives you 2d6 SA damage at level1, but only for ranged. In return, you lose your 1d6 SA for melee. SA progresses normally from there. If you were a halfling, you could get 2d6 SA effectively from a 1 level dip.

Also, check out Rich's Divine Trickster PrC on this very website. It has that roguey/clericy feel all wrapped up in a nice package.

tuesdayscoming
2011-02-21, 06:23 PM
Cloistered 6 / Swordsage 2 / Cloistered +X isn't so bad either. Wis to AC in light armor is all the better for sneaking about, and you'll get actual maneuvers and another stance.


I'm actually running a divine rogue with this feat in a campaign right now! While the Shadowhand stance would be a great say to qualify, I don't think that it would actually work out without at least one level of rogue. Sacred Outlaw let's your cleric levels stack for the scaling SA of Rogue , but the Swordsage SA is fixed, so there's nothing to let it stack onto.

This, of course, is up to DM interpretation, but that's my 2cp.

I ended up just taking one level in rogue, going Cloistered into Shadowbane Stalker for the extra SA die. Should save you a level or two of casting, IIRC.

hopelesst
2011-02-21, 06:50 PM
I'm actually running a divine rogue with this feat in a campaign right now! While the Shadowhand stance would be a great say to qualify, I don't think that it would actually work out without at least one level of rogue. Sacred Outlaw let's your cleric levels stack for the scaling SA of Rogue , but the Swordsage SA is fixed, so there's nothing to let it stack onto.

This, of course, is up to DM interpretation, but that's my 2cp.

I ended up just taking one level in rogue, going Cloistered into Shadowbane Stalker for the extra SA die. Should save you a level or two of casting, IIRC.

Yeah, my OP is actually the 3rd version of this character. I'll have to read over the stalker class before I finalize this. The first one was garbage, but my second build had some potential, if not for cross-class penalties:
Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 1/Swashbuckler +2/Cleric 1/Skullclan Hunter 4/Swashbuckler +10

This gave me a caster level of 1 (whoooooooooo), +9d6 sneak attack (given proper use of the Sacred and Daring Outlaw feats), and made for a much more effective melee rogue version of the character. That dip into cleric and the lack of caster levels from skullclan hunter pained me though, as I saw the potential for awesome here, so I rebuilt him.

Now I've got arguably a much, much more powerful character, but who has a crappy HD for 20 levels, who has full sneak attack progression but fails to perform as a great melee rogue (cross-classing hide and move silently...), and who doesn't have the open feats to follow the ranged rogue tree.

I'm stuck as to what to do.



Halfling Rogue Racial Sub (Races of the Wild) gives you 2d6 SA damage at level1, but only for ranged. In return, you lose your 1d6 SA for melee. SA progresses normally from there. If you were a halfling, you could get 2d6 SA effectively from a 1 level dip.
Strongheart Halfling looked like the ideal race here, since i wouldn't lose the human bonus feat and gain access to Yondalla's Sense, but the ONLY restriction I was given was humans only.

tuesdayscoming
2011-02-21, 07:01 PM
Now I've got arguably a much, much more powerful character, but who has a crappy HD for 20 levels, who has full sneak attack progression but fails to perform as a great melee rogue (cross-classing hide and move silently...), and who doesn't have the open feats to follow the ranged rogue tree.

I'm stuck as to what to do.

Human w/ Able Learner as your bonus feat fixes the cross class problem, and with Cloistered Cleric almost lets you keep up with a rogue in terms of skill points. For BAB there's always Divine Power, with or without divine metamagic cheese.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2011-02-21, 10:54 PM
Needs moar RKV becau

hopelesst
2011-02-22, 04:49 PM
Needs moar RKV becau

Only one of these words means anything to me, and it's not the abbreviation.

Keld Denar
2011-02-22, 04:56 PM
Ruby Knight Vindicator. Its a PrC in ToB. Among being totally sweet, one of the abilities it gives you is the ability to completely ignore armor check penalty when making hide checks. Thats like, the weakest ability it gives, which is still freakin sweet.

If you aren't playing with ToB though, it's not really useful advice.

Daftendirekt
2011-02-22, 05:01 PM
So I dropped into an all-human lvl2 game the other day and was trying to think of an interesting character to run and decided that a LG Rogue would be fun.


Halfling Rogue Racial Sub (Races of the Wild) gives you 2d6 SA damage at level1, but only for ranged.

Relevancy fail.

Keld Denar
2011-02-22, 05:08 PM
Relevancy fail.


Strongheart Halfling looked like the ideal race here, since i wouldn't lose the human bonus feat and gain access to Yondalla's Sense, but the ONLY restriction I was given was humans only.

Thank you for pointing that out...again...

Do you have any other amazing tidbits of information to add to this thread?

tuesdayscoming
2011-02-22, 05:12 PM
The RKV is definitely a nifty PrC. Full BAB, and 8/10 casting (IIRC). Requires a crusader dip, tho, and aside from their one sneak-in-armor ability there's really nothing roguey about them. Notably does NOT give/advance sneak attack dice, meaning you'd probably want to steer clear of Sacred Outlaw if you went this route.

Also, I think it requires that you worship Vecna.

Keld Denar
2011-02-22, 05:15 PM
Also, I think it requires that you worship Vecna.

Wee Jas, actually. Same amount of secrets and magic, less creepy undead and whatnot.

hopelesst
2011-02-22, 06:46 PM
Is there a list out there of all the classes that grant turning?

I want to re-tool my Swashbuckler build, then post a comparison with new backstory and see which one works better.

Cog
2011-02-22, 07:13 PM
Is there a list out there of all the classes that grant turning?
The Lists of Stuff (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871954/Lists_of_Stuff) is pretty thorough.

tuesdayscoming
2011-02-22, 07:13 PM
Is there a list out there of all the classes that grant turning?

I want to re-tool my Swashbuckler build, then post a comparison with new backstory and see which one works better.

From Surreal's "Lists of Stuff":

Turn/rebuke Undead

grants turn/rebuke undead - anything that grants turning generally stacks
Cleric 1
Paladin 4
Blackguard 3, ecl, command or rebuke only
Sacred Exorcist 1, ecl 8, Complete Divine, turn only
Ur-priest 2, ecl 7, Complete Divine, rebuke only
Divine Mind 4, Complete Divine, class variant (here)
Dread Necromancer 1, base class, Heroes of Horror, rebuke only
Death Delver 1, ecl 6, Heroes of Horror, rebuke only
Chameleon 3, ecl 8, Races of Destiny, see text
Master of Radiance 1, ecl 6, Libris Mortin, turn only - unclear whether you gain turning or if it only stacks
Tenebrous, vestige, ecl 7, Tome of Magic, unlimited use but see text
Knight of the Raven 3, ecl 7, Expedition to Castle Ravenloft
Apostle of Peace 1, ecl 8, Book of Exalted Deeds
Soldier of Light 1, ecl 6, Deities and Demigods
Deadgrim 1, ecl 6, Magic of Eberron - unclear whethero you gain turning or if it only stacks


levels stack for turn/rebuke undead (ie: requires turn/rebuke to qualify for the PrC)
Radiant Servant of Pelor, ecl 7, Complete Divine
Warpriest, ecl 6, Complete Divine
Eldritch Disciple, ecl 6, Complete Mage
Paragnostic Apostle, ecl 3?, Complete Champion
Ordained Champion, ecl 4, Complete Champion
Master of Shrouds, ecl 4, Libris Mortis - rebuke only
Sacred Purifier, Libris Mortis - turn only
True Necromancer, Libris Mortis - rebuke only
Purifier of the Hallowed Doctrine, ecl 6, Heroes of Horror - turn only
Death Delver, ecl 6, Heroes of Horror, rebuke only
Bone Knight, ecl 5, Eberron Five Nations, rebuke only
Deadgrim, ecl 6, Magic of Eberron
Eye of Horus-Re 1, ecl 7, Player's Guide to Faerun

Shaman
Yathrinshee


Greater Turning
Sacred Purifier 1, ecl 6, Libris Mortis


Special Mention
Cleric 1, Azurin racial substitution, Magic of Incarnum - gain Channel Incarnum instead, but counts as turning for feats
Cleric 1, Dragonblood substitution level, Races of the Dragon, turn energy instead, counts as turning for feats
Spirit Shaman 2, Complete Divine - chastise spirits, see text
Binder...?
Exalted Turning, feat, Book of Exalted Deeds, turned creatures take 3d6 damage
Druid Domains, Sun (UA, House Rule sidebar, pg 68) but only 1/day
Bone Talisman (Drd 2) spell online at Earthmother's Weapons (Druid Spells

from the Moonshaes)

edit: Ninja'd!