Grappling in an AMF

[Urpriest]

Hey guys!

A frequent jab at monks is that they are very good at "Grappling in an Antimagic Field", implying that while you can optimize a monk for grappling, magic will beat you every time.

Now it just so happens that I need a character who is very good at grappling in an antimagic field. Without Initiate of Mystra or similar AMF-evading tricks. So if I wanted such a character, how would I actually go about building one? Would it use monk or something else altogether? Would it ever be an effective grappler vs. large/huge/whatever monsters if it was naturally medium?

TLDR: Build me the true master of Grappling in an AMF!

[Keld Denar]

Bear-barian?

Dorf Bear Totem Barbarian 2/Ranger1/Fighter2/Deepwarden2/FistoftheForest3/BlackBloodCultist8/X2

Alternatively, swap 2 levels of Fighter for more Ranger as needed.

I'd suggest adding Bear Warrior, but it's alternate form ability is SU, IIRC, and would not function. Still, you get a beefy double Cha to AC, decent UAS damage (which is important as grappling does UAS damage), and all your Black Blood Cultist goodies like the ability to make all of your natural weapons in a grapple.

You'll probably also want to take Martial Study (Mountain Hammer) at 6 and Martial Stance (Crushing Roots of the Mountain) at 12, because Constrict is a GOOD thing.

[SurlySeraph]

Black Blood Cultist is pretty much *the* grappling class, and I'm pretty sure most of its features work in an AMF, so that'd do fine. Maybe throw in some levels of Warblade or Crusader to pick up Crushing Weight of the Mountain, take Scorpion's Grasp for Improved Grab, take Earth's Embrace for more damage when pinning, maybe Aberration Heritage + Deepspawn, and you're good to go. Normally I'd recommend Warshaper for more natural weapons, but that doesn't work in an AMF.

EDIT: There's a feat called "Beast Strike" or something from some Dragon that combines your unarmed strike and natural weapon damage. That + Superior Unarmed Strike + Savage Grapple would be pretty murderful.

[Psyborg]

Darn being away from books.

Okay, I can't do a full build, but here's some things to check out:
--Eldritch Claws is a Warlock Blast Shape invocation that, while I can't recall the details, can let you add EB damage to unarmed strikes and while grappling. A Warlock dip might be worthwhile for the extra damage.
--Goliath is the way to go here (counts as Large for all purposes except Space and Reach for +1LA, including Grapple and unarmed strike damage) unless LA buyoff isn't allowed and you're in Faerun where Jotunbrud Human is an option (counts as Large for Grapple, but not for UAS damage) and you really need that one extra class level.
--Since Grapple is BAB-based, leaving monk as soon as possible for something with full BAB is probably a good idea.
--Look through the Setting Sun discipline (ToB) for maneuvers and stances to pick up through feats. Since AMF is in effect, maneuver items aren't an option here, but the maneuvers themselves are nearly always (Ex), Shadow Hand and Desert Wind excepted.
--Vow of Poverty is either your best or worst bet here. Most (not all) of its benefits would still apply in an AMF when magic items wouldn't, except that Exalted feats are considered (Su), meaning you lose the feat itself in an AMF. If your DM is willing to houserule around this absurdity, it could be helpful.

Hope some of these ideas were helpful.

Edit: Derp. AMF = no Eldritch Blast.

[Hyfigh]

I'm AFB as well. :smallannoyed:
I recall Shou Disciple working well in grappling builds... Reaping Mauler has some items to offer, as well. The degree of importance of both is questionable considering this is stictly of memory.

Edit: Also, if it's allowed, OA has quite a few of handy grapple feats. Stuff that allows double damage on sustained grapples. I don't recall the feat names.

[Urpriest]

Ok, I'm seeing lots of grappling damage optimization, especially the tasty Black Blood Cultist. What I'm not seeing are ways to increase the check, short of Goliath, having full BAB, and rage. If you can't succeed on grapple checks you won't be dealing that beautiful pile of damage. Can any of these builds successfully grapple the big, beefy monsters that dot the MM?

[Keld Denar]

Sadly, probably not. They'd crush most smaller men, but without size increases, you can't grapple big baddies as a matter of physics. The game mechanics state that you can't grapple someone more than 2 sizes bigger than you. Given that Goliath only lets you count as large for the CHECK, not whether or not you can make the check means that barring Mountain Rage (which makes you large), you can't grapple anything bigger than huge. Even with Mountain Rage, you'll never be able to legally grapple the collosals.

Unfortunately, the biggest boosts to grappling (Expansion, Grip of Iron, Girallon Arms) are all magical or SU in nature. Well, unless you aren't playing with a magic/psionic transparency. If you aren't, a Tash Monk would probably be your best bet.

[Psyren]

1) Make a Monk/Psywar
2) Use Psionics Are Different variant
3) ???
4) Profit

@ Psyborg - Goliath most certainly does not count as Large "for all purposes." Powerful Build is specific in what it gives the bonus to. (Grappling is on the list however.)

[Urpriest]

Psi-Magic transparency is in effect. Also, it's actually Null-Psi field anyway, I've been referring to it as an AMF for conciseness.

[SurlySeraph]

You can't get a hold on something two or more sizes larger than you, by the grappling rules. So successfully wrestling anything above Huge is out unless there's a non-magical way to be bigger than Large, or a feat that mitigates that, or something.

Bear Totem Barbarian 5 for another +4 to grapple would probably be worthwhile.

I'm AFB, but for a Goliath with 19 class levels we're looking at something like:
19 BAB + 12 Str (22 base, +5 inherent, +4 rage, +4 levels if no LA buyoff, maybe take some grafts?) +4 Improved Grapple, +4 Bear Totem, +4 size = +43 without really thinking about it. That's OK, but certainly not great.

Factotum 3 for +Int would probably be worth the BAB loss, not sure if it would be worth the loss of class features.

[Elric VIII]

I seem to recall a feat or class feature that lets you drive pitons into large enough creatures and climb them. I'll try to find it. Would this sort of thing help you?

EDIT: Hammer and Piton Style from Dungeonscape. It's not actually grappling, it's climbing your opponent and following him as he moves.

[Hyfigh]

Wouldn't the Bear Warriors bear forms get you those precious size increases without counting as magic or Su's? Or are they Su's?

[Keld Denar]

The Giantbane tactical feat also has the Climb Aboard feature, but thats a function of your climb check, not your grapple check. Jack featured it in the Blade Bravo Iron Chef competition (anthromonkeys are climbing mastas!).

And yes, Bear Warrior's ability is a function of Alternate Form, a most definitely SU ability.

[Flickerdart]

Ah, but you forget. While you can't start a grapple with the big guys, they can start grapples with you, after which you punch them in the teeth to your heart's content. All you need to do is get them to grab you.

[ericgrau]

Generally I might recommend a light magic weapon to deal maximum damage in a grapple. But without magic you may deal more damage with a monk, even after medium BAB. If you're allowed a chaos monk a dip into barbarian for rage wouldn't hurt though. Or basically any way you can get good unarmed strike damage will pump your grapple damage, and non-magical damage in general.

[playswithfire]

Well, it's not a monk, but it will fight unarmed and unarmored and do so at least as well as a monk of the same ECL (which is 10 including LA since I didn't know what level you wanted): a Goliath Barbarian 5/Battle Dancer 1/Crusader 2/Fist of the Forest 1

Details
Barbarian using:
- Bear Totem (UA)
- Bear Spiritual Totem (CC)
- Goliath Racial Substitution (Ros)
grants improved grab, the feats listed above and +4 to grapple while using Mountain Rage which makes you large

Battle Dancer (taken at level 3) gives Improved Unarmed Strike and Cha to AC unarmored

Crusader (taken at 5 and 8) gives
Cha to Will saves, furious counterstrike and the third level stone dragon stance Crushing Weight of the Mountain, which gives constrict damage

Fist of the Forest gives
CON to AC unarmored, improved unarmed strike damage

Using the elite array, let's say

STR 15+4+1 20
CON 14+2 16
DEX 12-2 10
INT 10 10
WIS 8 8
CHA 13 +1 14

Using elite array and no gear
Grapple check: 33 (9 BAB + 4 size + 4 feat + 4 rage + 4 scorpion claws + 8 STR) while raging
Grapple damage 4d6+20 (unarmed strike 2d6+8*, constrict damage 2d6+12**)

*thanks to superior unarmed strike, size increase, and Fist of the Forest
** thanks to improved grab from Bear Spiritual totem and the Crushing Weight of the Mountain stance

[Urpriest]

How are you using both Bear Totem and Bear Spiritual Totem? IIRC they both trade out fast movement.

[playswithfire]

How are you using both Bear Totem and Bear Spiritual Totem? IIRC they both trade out fast movement.

They do; I guess I assumed a DM would either allow you to trade out the Toughness from Bear Totem for improved grab or let you get both, but impose a -10 penalty to speed, which would be offset by Fist of the Forest's fast movement.

[Urpriest]

They do; I guess I assumed a DM would either allow you to trade out the Toughness from Bear Totem for improved grab or let you get both, but impose a -10 penalty to speed, which would be offset by Fist of the Forest's fast movement.

Also, where are the Scorpion Claws from?

[AtomicKitKat]

Remember kids, Grafts are only magical until they're part of your body!:smallbiggrin:

Also, if you're getting either the Grappling Tentacle/Reaching Arm grafts, and/or Deepspawn, pick up Inhuman Reach, and Extended Reach(Savage Species) so that all your natural attacks reach out to an additional 10 feet. Yes, even your bite. NO ONE IS SAFE FROM YOUR PERVERTED HUGS AND KISSES!

Edit: Scorpion Claws are probably Sandstorm weapons.

[CycloneJoker]

Are flaws allowed? If so, be a variant of Tiny Von BigMcLargeHuge. Kobold, Slight Build for kicks and giggles human heritage, jotenbrud with a flaw, and the Sunken City touchstone, which didn't name the type, as far as I can tell. There, you're huge for 8 hours. Go with anything else here that adds on to it.

[Otomodachi]

Abstract- play a modified gnome giant-slayer; why; how

My first piece of advice is to ask your DM if you can houserule the Gnome Giant Slayer (CW) class in such a way as to be useful.

Two steps-

* Remove the giant-specificity on all class features (specifically- Favored Enemy, Crafty Fighter, Slippery, Close Shot, Improved Mobility, Annoying Strike, Defensive Roll) make it so they all apply to anything three sizes larger than you, a gnome, (huge or bigger) change text on Favored Enemy notably applies to all creatures huge or larger.

* annoying strike should add status' in this order- shaken, if target is already shaken because of your annoying strike ability it must make a will save DC = 10 + gnome slayer level + cha fluff; anything which isn't immune to mind affecting is freaking out cuz you're just hacking away at their most vulnerable bits and eventually they'll be crippled, etc.

the second change seems valid to me as it forces the enemy to pay attention to you; we all know the obvious DnD problems with tanking, and I think this is a cooler way to get enemies in grapples with you than rolling up some large sized character

RACES

Whisper Gnome. :P Alternately go regular gnome and build grenades to throw with Close Shot. Why not set them on fire?? Lots of ways to work Alchemist's Fire in as just one of your iterative attacks. Flurried shuriken could be fun, too.

FEATS

Complete Warrior has lots of stuff that's almost great; again, my whole premise is your DM wants to work with you here, cuz the thing your going for, grappling larger targets, isn't easy to achieve.

CLEVER WRESTLING lets you get a bonus based on how large the foe is; once again, only applies to ESCAPING grapples, this is LAME.

BEAR CLAW weapon style lets you, upon hitting with both axe and dagger, grapple the target as a free action and get another attack afterwards. Bit of a feat tax, also implicit is the fact that you have to be a two weapon fighter. Yowch.

SPINNING HALBERD weapon style is cool, but you must be a two-weapon fighter. Why? Well, it lets you get one off-hand attack with your halberd, I guess, but that's like having to buy two-weapon fighting again. I'd ask yer DM if taking weapon focus is a good enough requirement, cuz I could see the halberd rocking for this

GIANTBANE I would also consider asking your DM if this could be edited to work in the same way as the proposed giant slayer class features because it gives you some cool tactical options, including riding large foes and gaining free tactical movement through being attacked by large foes. Needs tumble, and climb to succeed at riding foes.

IN GENERAL- ambush feats could be good, as again they give your foe a reason to focus on you. the problem is lots of Fort saves, and bigger foes will have better forts. The exact same applies to feats which expand on Stunning Fist. Could Dodge/Mobility pay off here? Short Haft for your Halberd? Mad Alchemist from PHB2? Focus on making yourself a non-magical nuisance. Don't have my ToB here, can't comment on martial things other than YES PLEASE

CLASSES

I see four options for base class-

god help me, fighter. feats are very good here; fighter 2, or sneak attack fighter 3, could pay off as a start.

barbarian- either spirit lion or bear; bear gives a class-specific grapple bonus at 5, while raging.

warblade- maneuvers are gonna be good with this; people have mentioned one way. i recommend warblade, or crusader even, before swordsage because of BAB

monk- well, losing BAB sucks. I wouldn't go monk.

Anyhow, I played a character who was built around a similar re-working of gnome giant-slayer and had a blast. It's hard coming up with ways to compensate for the size bonuses larger creatures get on grapple, but i think modifying existing stuff is cooler than just playing an equally large creature. :P

[Stallion]

A feral goliath bear totem barbarian with mountain rage/frenzied berserker/fighter with improved grapple, battle jump, reckless rage, aberration blood, deepspawn, LOTS of grafts (as many silithar muscles as you can get, as many weakening arms as you can get, grappling tentacles, grasping mandibles, spike stones, MAYBE a locking hand, and an added tail), and a few psionic sinews. If you can spring for Crushing Weight of the Mountain, go for that instead of the added tail, but feats are important, while money can just be found.

Another interesting concept would be a bauriar forsaker mix. 49 SR at ECL 20 would be helpful enough.