Can a Lawful Evil character use poison on their weapons?

[Sims]

I mean, that'd be evil, but poison use is usually illegal. So would his alignment shift?

[LikeAD6]

Lawful doesn't necessarily mean a character follows the law of the land. As long as the character follows a code of some sort he/she can probably safely stay at lawful.

[Voldecanter]

I do not see a reason for an alignment shift if you are simply using Poison on your weapons. Weapons are dangerous, and designed to kill. If you openly attack people with said weapon in the open street in an insane rage for the sake of killing people, then I would be worried about an Alignment shift.

If you are really concerned about this, perhaps you warn your more civilized opponents that your weapons are poisoned, a small warning such as "If I hit you, seek a slow poison spell as soon as possible."

That warning might also scare your opponents on a morale standpoint.

[MightyPirate]

I mean, that'd be evil, but poison use is usually illegal. So would his alignment shift?
It depends . . .

Is it against the law in the setting? I could see a non-lethal poison fitting a lawful good character quite well, all the better to incapacitate enemies so they will have a fair trail later.

Is he using it all the time or only on specific enemies? On everyone he meets seems like it would be unlawful but if it's to defeat an enemy who specifically wants to topple the current authority (and probably will if not defeated) then maybe it's like a desperate last resort for a lawful character.

That brings me to the last point that covers most any circumstances: why is the lawful character using poison? In general if the use of said poison helps him uphold the law (where he wouldn't be able without it) then yeah, a lawful character can use poison. As LikeAD6 points out it doesn't have to be external laws either, it just has to help uphold lawful virtues be it the laws of the land, a personal code, or a oath sworn to another.

[Caliphbubba]

I'm going to go with an empathtic NO his alignment won't shift.

if Lawful Evil people never bent, ignored or broke the laws of the land there wouldn't be any Lawful Evil characters.

Even in Hell most devils (who are Lawful Evil incarnate) worried more about getting caught breaking the law, than actually breaking it.

[druid91]

When did poison become evil?

Why is poison evil?

To be blunt. It isn't. At least not in any way that makes sense.

Why is using poison less lawful than not using poison? Less honorable maybe. But less lawful?

[Coidzor]

Yes he can. And, no.

[hamishspence]

When did poison become evil?

Why is poison evil?

To be blunt. It isn't. At least not in any way that makes sense.

Not sure what Gygax's rationale was.

BoED's was that ability damaging poisons (but not spells, or other substances) cause extreme suffering.

[druid91]

Not sure what Gygax's rationale was.

BoED's was that ability damaging poisons (but not spells, or other substances) cause extreme suffering.
IIRC in the old AD&D book I've been looking through, the reason was that nicking the evil wizard with a poisoned throwing knife and killing him wasn't fun.

So poison needed a restriction.

Therefore poison is evil the town guard will arrest you for it.

As for the BoED's... It makes no sense. Then it would need some sort of distraction penalty.

It seems to me that it would be a sudden weakness,numbness, stiffness, or clouded judgement, or intelligence.

[Greenish]

Not sure what Gygax's rationale was.

BoED's was that ability damaging poisons (but not spells, or other substances) cause extreme suffering.And the knife used to deliver it doesn't?

[hamishspence]

It's possible that they overestimated just how painful most poisons are.

Still- I've seen it said, that some, especially animal venoms, can indeed be excruciatingly painful- over a period of hours or days.

[druid91]

Ok, so it hurts.

Nearly everything an adventurer does is going to hurt someone. Didn't it hurt for that goblin to be set on fire?

What about cloudkill? That's effectively toxic gas is that evil?


Sorry, just I like using poison, it gives my characters that subtle edge, The why doesn't this work?

[hamishspence]

For those who don't want it to count as Evil- they can point out how many real-life poisons are, in fact, fairly painless.

Maybe making it one of those things that's context-sensitive- if used to minimise pain and harm, rather than maximize it, it can make perfect sense as non-evil.

[Coidzor]

The biggest problem comes from the fantastic and out-right magical poisons and the poisons that are designed to be undetectable/difficult to detect and digested.

Because only a very small minority of poison-makers would design their magic, expensive, time-consuming to make poison so that it was immediately detectable for causing burning pain to the victim and allowing them to ensure their survival from the secondary effects by getting a neutralize/delay poison spell up.

[Sims]

Ok, so it hurts.

Nearly everything an adventurer does is going to hurt someone. Didn't it hurt for that goblin to be set on fire?

What about cloudkill? That's effectively toxic gas is that evil?


Sorry, just I like using poison, it gives my characters that subtle edge, The why doesn't this work?

See, I agree with you, but I'm hoping my DM will. Im using a Wounding, Flaming, Spell Storing (for Ray of Enfeeblement) and (soon to be) Poisonous Spiked Chain for extreme "Tripping"

I'm thinking having the Wounding Enhancement could cause some problems too.

See, I'm MIGHT have to fight one of the other players, and my DM sort of kisses his ass sometimes. And during our fight (if we do) I don't want to have to restrict myself to much.

[Coidzor]

See, I'm MIGHT have to fight one of the other players, and my DM sort of kisses his ass sometimes. And during our fight (if we do) I don't want to have to restrict myself to much.

Right. That's 3 major warning signs from your group right there. :/

[The Cat Goddess]

Wolvesbane is a poison. It's use against Weres is not Illegal. Of course, for that matter Silver is a poison to Weres...

Heck, Peanut Oil is "poison" to a certain segment of the population.

As for a Lawful Evil person... it really depends on what kind of person he is, and when he is using Poison.

A Lawful Evil person won't use Poisoned weapons during a barroom brawl and probably won't use poison during a Duel. But against enemy soldiers during war? Sure. Poisoning a town's well? Probably not. Poisoning the unwary Wizard who is a potential threat to your plans at dinner? Sure.

[Squark]

Poison, quite frankly, is an iconic lawful evil tool. Poisoning someone's drink is a time-honored way for Lawful Evil people to get a Klingon Promotion.

[hamishspence]

Because only a very small minority of poison-makers would design their magic, expensive, time-consuming to make poison so that it was immediately detectable for causing burning pain to the victim and allowing them to ensure their survival from the secondary effects by getting a neutralize/delay poison spell up.

that can be resolved by having it be the secondary effects as the point when the agonizing pain starts- and it being something that's an inevitable side-effect of the process by which the poison kills (or weakens) the victim.

Or, (possibly better?), it could be dumped entirely- and paralysing someone with a Str poison treated as no different, morally, than paralysing them with a Str-damaging spell.

That said, real poisons generally act much more slowly than D&D ones.

[Greenish]

Poisoning a town's well? Probably not.Dunno, maybe the character has a more valenari approach to honour.

[Prime32]

For those who don't want it to count as Evil- they can point out how many real-life poisons are, in fact, fairly painless.

Maybe making it one of those things that's context-sensitive- if used to minimise pain and harm, rather than maximize it, it can make perfect sense as non-evil.Surgery is evil unless you do it without anaesthetic! Drinking alcohol is evil! :smalltongue:

[The Cat Goddess]

Dunno, maybe the character has a more valenari approach to honour.

I see a Lawful Evil person more likely to subborn/subjugate/indimidate a town than poison/slaughter it.

[hamishspence]

Surgery is evil unless you do it without anaesthetic! Drinking alcohol is evil! :smalltongue:

Anaesthetic does not have to be statted as "ability damaging poison". (indeed, "drow sleep venom" is explicitly called out as Not Evil to use- and is possibly the nearest equivalent).

Same might apply to alcohol- Arms & Equipment Guide does not specifically state that the listed alcohols are poisons.

[druid91]

I see a Lawful Evil person more likely to subborn/subjugate/indimidate a town than poison/slaughter it.

Eh, that's just a stereotype. There are some who go that route. And others who just exterminate.

[The Cat Goddess]

Eh, that's just a stereotype. There are some who go that route. And others who just exterminate.

Then, honestly, they're probably not Lawful Evil.

[Frozen_Feet]

Lawful doesn't necessarily mean a character follows the law of the land. As long as the character follows a code of some sort he/she can probably safely stay at lawful.
*ahem*


Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties.
Just "following a code of some sort" does not cut it. Specific for this situation, using poison when it's illegal runs counter to keeping their word (Claim to be lawful while using unlawful methods), honoring tradition and respecting authority. A truly Lawful character would forego using illegal means, even if he's from a foreign country where such means are accepted.

A character who uses illegal means constantly should cease to be of Lawful alignment, unless he is expectionally Lawful in other aspects of life.

That said, not all poisons are illegal. Just using substances that are not explicitly restricted by the law would be a fairly standard for a Lawful Evil character, and would not cause aligment shift. :smallsmile:

[Lurkmoar]

I always thought of Lawful Evil as working the letter of the law, while subverting its spirit. So yeah, I would imagine that a Lawful Evil person wouldn't have any problems with poison, as long as it could be purchased or obtained through legal means.

And poisons in game settings can have very varied effects. But then there's the whole logic problem about putting a sleeping problem on a sword. Hm, more tests...

[Coidzor]

using poison when it's illegal runs counter to keeping their word (Claim to be lawful while using unlawful methods)

That's not the usual game where a character is actually claiming to be lawful though, so you can't really use that as the basis for a blanket ban on LE using poison and have others consider that a reasonable judgment.


A character who uses illegal means constantly should cease to be of Lawful alignment, unless he is expectionally Lawful in other aspects of life.

I'm going to play the "that's boring and unnecessarily stifling of one's DMing arsenal" card and leave it at that.

[Burner28]

Lawful doesn't necessarily mean a character follows the law of the land. As long as the character follows a code of some sort he/she can probably safely stay at lawful.

And it certainkly doesn't mean that you follow everyone's laws as that is impossible given that each place has its own set of laws, not all of which are compatible with eahc other. A Lawful Evil character from a land where cruelty and poison is part of the established institution they are loyal to aren't going to follow the laws of the land that goes against the rules of the institution they are loyal to. And that is if you believe that Lawful does mean literally following laws and external rules, which isn't what everyone agrees with.

[Provengreil]

IIRC in the old AD&D book I've been looking through,

It seems to me that it would be a sudden weakness,numbness, stiffness, or clouded judgement, or intelligence.

sudden weakness- str damage
stiffness- dex damage
judgement- wis damage
intelligence- int damage

basically, poisons do exactly these things, it just might not immediately register as such. you're probably thinking of the con damage poisons that that make killing easier, but str damage seems to be the most common to me, at a quick glance. go go dragon bile.

[druid91]

Then, honestly, they're probably not Lawful Evil.

To which I respond... Why not? What part of exterminating those in your way isn't lawful evil?

Take this example. The empire of lord Evilwizardington is at war with the kingdom of sunshinehappyland.

They need metal for weapons. Luckily the dwarves have very productive mines just to the north, and they aren't well defended enough.

So knowing that the dwarves would prove too unruly as slaves due to their warrior culture. Lord Evilwizardinton sends general doomface to go and exterminate the dwarves and replace them with the tried and true slave labor, the poor unfortunate halflings.

Now what part of that isn't lawful evil?

Or for a more extreme example... A fallen elan/warforged paladin, he once saw all that was bright and good, but over the millenia of crusading against evil he became more and more bitter as all other shining lights in the dark were extinguished, to him he just doesn't realize that the new guys can actually fight. And eventually, the last of the hero's falls in battle against the forces of darkness.... And he is all that remains, he looks around and stops seeing the shining bright light being invaded by darkness that he thought he saw, he sees the shades of gray that everyone but him could see all along, and realizes that everyone has a small evil. And that it grows quicker than good. He decides to sow salt lest the bitter weeds grow. To him it's a choice between "mercifully" ending you now or letting the world slowly corrupt and destroy you in a process that is undoubtedly more painful than any blow from a sword. And he gathers followers, and across the earth they spread, bringing order by eliminating variables.

[ClockShock]

I always thought of Lawful Evil as working the letter of the law, while subverting its spirit. So yeah, I would imagine that a Lawful Evil person wouldn't have any problems with poison, as long as it could be purchased or obtained through legal means.


Not to pick on the quoted poster alone, but a lot of people seem to be mistaking 'killing someone with a legal implement/poison' for 'an entirely acceptable and totally not at all illegal act'

If you're at the point where you can kill someone lawfully then you don't need to worry so much about HOW you do it.
Poison is just a tool.

In response to druid91, in one opinion of what i'm certain are many:
When you get to the scale of nations pitted against nations, Lawful Evil becomes ruthless and efficient drive to a goal. (Chaotic Evil being disjointed drive towards a whim).
When the scale is lesser, operating within a society, Lawful Evil has to play to the rules of that society.
If your Lawful Evil character chooses to be part of a society, he has to play to the society's rules. If he creates or rules his own society, he gets the joy of choosing those rules (though note that other aspects of 'lawful' still apply), and can therefore do the whole extermination thing.

Nothing wrong with shooting the barrelled fish when both fish and barrels are against MY laws.

[Eisirt]

Discuss it with your GM.

[TheOOB]

Lawful doesn't mean what you think it means :)

Lawful people don't necessarily follow laws per say, but rather they value stability and tradition and judge their actions based on the long term and far reaching consequences. A lawful person only cares about laws insofar as to what the consequences of breaking them would be(note that most lawful good characters believe that breaking laws can destabilize the legal system and cause more harm than good and thus tend not to do so).

As long as the character isn't fighting in an honorable duel, I see no reason an evil character would ever not use poison.

[zorba1994]

Lawful doesn't mean what you think it means :)

Lawful people don't necessarily follow laws per say, but rather they value stability and tradition and judge their actions based on the long term and far reaching consequences. A lawful person only cares about laws insofar as to what the consequences of breaking them would be(note that most lawful good characters believe that breaking laws can destabilize the legal system and cause more harm than good and thus tend not to do so).

As long as the character isn't fighting in an honorable duel, I see no reason an evil character would ever not use poison.

This pretty much nails it IMO.

[Zaydos]

Have you sworn to an honorable duel?

If yes then using poison would be non-lawful.

If not you can probably get away with it. Obviously bans and such laws only exist to keep the non-elect from obtaining poison. If you can do it without getting caught that's not your fault is it?

In short poison is the classic tool of LE.

[Swooper]

See, I agree with you, but I'm hoping my DM will. Im using a Wounding, Flaming, Spell Storing (for Ray of Enfeeblement) and (soon to be) Poisonous Spiked Chain for extreme "Tripping"
Slight tangent, but I thought I'd point out that Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't work in a Spell Storing weapon because it isn't a "targeted spell", which Spell Storing requires. A "targeted spell" is any spell with a "Target:" entry in the spell description, which ray spells lack.

[Sims]

Slight tangent, but I thought I'd point out that Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't work in a Spell Storing weapon because it isn't a "targeted spell", which Spell Storing requires. A "targeted spell" is any spell with a "Target:" entry in the spell description, which ray spells lack.

Complete and utter rubbish.

Aren't Rays only capable of hitting 1 person? Shouldn't that in itself make it a targeting spell?

Are there any useful "targeting Spells" below level 3?