[3.5] looking for Sorcerer PrC

[Thurbane]

Hey all,

I’m looking for a full casting progression PrC for a sorcerer that can be locked in after just 4 levels of Sorcerer. I found quite a few you can hit after 5th, but I’m drawing a blank on 4th. For full casting, as long as the first couple of levels give progression, doesn’t matter if it misses some later.

The character’s first 4 levels are locked as Sorcerer, and being a non-human, only has two feats to play with. On the flipside, the character has +4 BAB, and Fort +1, Ref +4 and Will +4 (don’t ask) if that helps. 1 BAB short of Abjurant champion, sadly. Could qualify for Spellsword, but would need proficiency in all simple & martial weapons. Short of being an Outsider, I can't see how to do this.

I’d like to avoid flaws for extra feats if at all possible.

Usual source restrictions: no Dragon mag (Compendium hardcover is OK), no ToB, no psionics, no MoI; preferably nothing campaign specific.

Cheers - T

[MammonAzrael]

I'm assuming only 4 levels of sorcerer, just straight ECL 4? If you're already at 4 BAB, I'm assuming you're using a homebrew version of sorcerer?

I honestly can't think of one that can be entered into at level 5. And except for Master Specialist and racial paragon PrCs, I can't think of any intended to be entered at level 5.

Good luck though!

[Thurbane]

I'm assuming only 4 levels of sorcerer, just straight ECL 4? If you're already at 4 BAB, I'm assuming you're using a homebrew version of sorcerer?
Something like that, but not quite. It's a monster with 4 innate levels of Sorc casting. :smallwink:

I honestly can't think of one that can be entered into at level 5. And except for Master Specialist and racial paragon PrCs, I can't think of any intended to be entered at level 5.

Good luck though!
That's true - though I'm not adverse to some early entry shennanigans, if it's by RAW.

The Militia feat (PGtF) would get martial proficiency to enter Spellsword, but the character does not qualify for it.

Maybe I'll just have to suck up either 2 levels of Sorc and then Abj Champion, or 1 level of a +1 BAB class, then Abj Champion...

[Keld Denar]

You can get into Mindbender after 5, but like Mammon, I'm drawing a blank for 4...

Skill prereqs are gonna be the ones that screw you. If you can find a PrC that doesn't really have skill prereqs, you can easily fudge MOST of the spellcasting reqs with Sanctum Spell or similar early entry techniques.

[Thurbane]

You can get into Mindbender after 5, but like Mammon, I'm drawing a blank for 4...

Skill prereqs are gonna be the ones that screw you. If you can find a PrC that doesn't really have skill prereqs, you can easily fudge MOST of the spellcasting reqs with Sanctum Spell or similar early entry techniques.
Yeah, deinitely tough with the skills. All the one's I've found require 8 ranks in something. I suppose there's Primary Contact, but that's a level of cheese I was hoping to avoid.

[true_shinken]

You could just get two levels of Sorcerer then hop into Abjurant Champion.
I don't think there are any available prcs at that level, and since it's a monstrous character even paragon classes are out.

[Wings of Peace]

Tainted Scholar. :smallamused:

[Keld Denar]

5th level is kinda bleh, but if you have to truck it out, you might as well take 6th level. 6th level of ANY class always comes with +1 BAB and +1 all saves, even if it doesn't have any other features. It just works out that way. 6th level is nice.

[MammonAzrael]

If you can figure a way to increase your caster level by one you could get into Mindbender for a level. And then you'll be 5th level and have a much easier time qualifying for things.

Does anyone know of a way he could raise his caster level by one for this? Depending on how much cheese your DM allows I think you could qualify for it with an item boosted CL, or maybe a feat that boosts your CL for a certain type of spell...

[Zaq]

You can get into Dread Witch as Sorc 4 / DW 1, but it's 4/5 casting, sadly.

[Thurbane]

Tainted Scholar. :smallamused:
Doesn't that require 8 ranks of Concentration?

If you can figure a way to increase your caster level by one you could get into Mindbender for a level. And then you'll be 5th level and have a much easier time qualifying for things.

Does anyone know of a way he could raise his caster level by one for this? Depending on how much cheese your DM allows I think you could qualify for it with an item boosted CL, or maybe a feat that boosts your CL for a certain type of spell...
That's definitely a good thought, but the skill reqs for Mindbender would be mostly crossclass, so I couldn't hit 4 ranks until 5th, anyhow. :smallfrown:

You can get into Dread Witch as Sorc 4 / DW 1, but it's 4/5 casting, sadly.
So close...dammit. :smalleek:

[MammonAzrael]

Well following the same concept as Mindbender you can get into Blood Magus with four ranks in Concentration (and two crappy feats) for up to four levels without losing a level of casting.

Paragnostic Apostle from Complete Champion could work if you can manage 3rd level spells somehow and three knowledges with 5 ranks.

Geomancer from Complete Divine works provided you can cast divine spells somehow, with 6 ranks in two knowledge skills.

If you're proficient with all simple and martial weapons and all armor and can get 6 ranks in knowledge arcana, you can take a level of Spellsword from Complete Warrior.

[The Cat Goddess]

Yeah... even a Racial Paragon class probably wouldn't work, since all the existing ones don't give spell progression at level 1.

If you're a monster race (not a Dragon-type, since they have all good saves), why not just take another level of racial hit-dice?

If you've got +4 BAB at level 4, then another level must give you +1 BAB.

Does the race give "4 innate levels of Sorcerer casting" or does it give "Cast as a Sorcerer of your Racial Hit Die"?

[Analytica]

There is a Trait, spellgifted, from UA/SRD that increases CL for one school, but decreases it for all others. May suffice to get you into Mindbender.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fey Heritage + Fey Power feats in CM give you +1 CL for Enchantments, allowing you to qualify for Mindbender, but that's two feats.

There's a regional feat in PGtF called Militia which grants proficiency in all martial weapons, which would allow you to grab one Spellsword level and then five Abjurant Champion levels, but that would also take both your feats.

[true_shinken]

There's a regional feat in PGtF called Militia which grants proficiency in all martial weapons, which would allow you to grab one Spellsword level and then five Abjurant Champion levels, but that would also take both your feats.
He doesn't qualify for Militia.
I'm guessing he is a magical beast, btw.

[gbprime]

Guys, guys...

Take Versatile Spellcaster feat (Races of the Dragon). That enables casting of 3rd level spells (even though you don't know any), which is one way to qualify for Ruathar (Races of the Wild). It's full casting and gets elf stuff.

If your DM wants you to be able to actually KNOW a 3rd level spell, get your hands on a Runestaff. Problem solved.

[Thurbane]

He doesn't qualify for Militia.
I'm guessing he is a magical beast, btw.
Close - Monstrous Humanoid. I can't go into too many details, as I want to avoid naming the particular race - although you can probably work it out (if you're really interested, PM me).

Does the race give "4 innate levels of Sorcerer casting" or does it give "Cast as a Sorcerer of your Racial Hit Die"?
I'm pretty sure it's capped at 4th.

Guys, guys...

Take Versatile Spellcaster feat (Races of the Dragon). That enables casting of 3rd level spells (even though you don't know any), which is one way to qualify for Ruathar (Races of the Wild). It's full casting and gets elf stuff.

If your DM wants you to be able to actually KNOW a 3rd level spell, get your hands on a Runestaff. Problem solved.
Now that's clever. I believe with Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster (which I was already planning to take as a feat), I can definitely cast 3rd level spells! Ruathar also helps out with MWP for Abjurant Champion. :smallsmile:

...the fluff doesn't really fit, as the character is likely to be evil, but I could probably work around that.

Thanks GB. :smallbiggrin:

[gbprime]

Heighten Spell definately works. I recommend the runestaff just because it doesn't take another feat. But Heighten + Versatile is airtight. :smallamused:

[true_shinken]

...the fluff doesn't really fit, as the character is likely to be evil, but I could probably work around that.

Drow Ruathar. Mentioned in the class description even, IIRC.
...but I don't think a Sorcerer gets 3rd level spells with Versatile Spellcaster alone. You'd need Heighten Spell also.

[Thurbane]

Heighten Spell fits with the character too, as save or sucks with high DCs are part of his schtick.

I'll have to re-read Ruathar, must have missed the Drow stuff. It would also be a good fit for the character, as he will have an Underdark background.

So, MH (Sorc) 4/Ruathar 3/Abjurant Champ 5...BAB +11, CL 12. Nice. :smallsmile:

[Keld Denar]

Sanctum Spell gets you into Ruathar or Paragnostic Disciple with only one feat, rather than the 2 for Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell. Granted, unless you are planning on abusing Sanctum Spell for other shanananananananananananigans (Spellstoring weapon or something), you are probably better off with the more useful Versatile Spellcaster.

[Thurbane]

I've never really read into Sanctum Spell, I'll have to check it out. but since I was planning on throwing VS on this character anyway, it's all good.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's a +0 metamagic that gives you a +1 Heighten inside your designated sanctum, otherwise it's a -1 Heighten outside your sanctum. It lets you count a 4th level spell as though it were a 3rd level spell to use a lesser metamagic rod or put it in a spell storing weapon. I think it was designed with prepared casters in mind, you could prepare spells with it that you expect to cast at home but you're then penalized for casting them outside your sanctum, but it turned out to be an extremely abusable mechanic.

If you're going to get Heighten Spell, you may as well pick up a reserve feat.

Another alternative would be a Bloodline feat from Dragon 311, 325, and 335. Each grants you a specific spell known of every spell level, regardless of whether you're capable of casting spells of that level, but each prohibits you from learning a specific subschool of spells. For example, Necromantic bloodline prohibits Conjuration (Healing) spells. Each has a prerequisite of Summon Familiar, which I'd assume was to block Bards from taking it, but then they add Obtain Familiar and familiar-replacing ACFs so Bards end up being more likely to qualify for them.

Anyone can take any regional feat with Kn: Local (that region) 2 ranks. You should definitely try to pick up Flyby Attack if you qualify for it, especially with an incorporeal character as you can end every turn inside a solid object and thus invulnerable, if you're using an adaptation of the race I think you are.

[true_shinken]

Anyone can take any regional feat with Kn: Local (that region) 2 ranks.
That rule was dropped in 3.5

[Last Laugh]

Create Magic Tattoo from Spell Compendium, cast by a level 13 caster is +1 caster level for 1 day. Extended it lasts for 2 days. It would be pretty cheap to get a caster to buff you, and then qualify for any :Arcane Caster level 5th class. Such as Mindbender, or Sand Shaper.

[The Cat Goddess]

Create Magic Tattoo from Spell Compendium, cast by a level 13 caster is +1 caster level for 1 day. Extended it lasts for 2 days. It would be pretty cheap to get a caster to buff you, and then qualify for any :Arcane Caster level 5th class. Such as Mindbender, or Sand Shaper.

And once the tattoo wears off, you no longer qualify for the PrC and immediately lose all the special abilities of said PrC.

[dextercorvia]

And once the tattoo wears off, you no longer qualify for the PrC and immediately lose all the special abilities of said PrC.

Not usually. Especially not in this case. Mindbender requires CL5. Sorcerer4/Mindbender1 has CL5.

[The Cat Goddess]

Not usually. Especially not in this case. Mindbender requires CL5. Sorcerer4/Mindbender1 has CL5.

The abilities gained by taking a level cannot be used to meet prereq's for taking a class at that same level.

Thus, if you choose Spell Focus: Evil as your 9th level feat, you cannot become an Ur-Priest at the same time... You have to wait until level 10.

Also the training time for gaining a level (especially in a new class) would almost always be greater than the length of time that the tatoo lasted anyway.

Further, why not use Wild Mage shenanigans to have your effective caster level be high enough to qualify for some of the tougher PrCs? Just roll the die... if you don't get a high enough roll, then don't level up that exact moment. :smallamused:

[Greenish]

The abilities gained by taking a level cannot be used to meet prereq's for taking a class at that same level.Citation needed.

[Keld Denar]

PHB, like page 14 or something. There is an order to leveling. You pick your class first, then you get your skills and feats.

If you don't have the feat when you take the class, you won't get the feat till after you pick a class level. By then, its too late.

[Telonius]

Looking through some old reference files ... the only non-cheesy things I'm finding that this guy might remotely qualify for are Stoneblessed (from Races of Stone - and it requires Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, or Giant) or Dragonmark Heir (from Eberron Campaign Setting - needs two feats and Eberron-ish stuff). Neither of them does a single thing to help out a Sorcerer.

[Greenish]

PHB, like page 14 or something. There is an order to leveling. You pick your class first, then you get your skills and feats.

If you don't have the feat when you take the class, you won't get the feat till after you pick a class level. By then, its too late.But does that apply retroactively?

[dextercorvia]

Follow the bouncing ball.


Create Magic Tattoo from Spell Compendium, cast by a level 13 caster is +1 caster level for 1 day. Extended it lasts for 2 days. It would be pretty cheap to get a caster to buff you, and then qualify for any :Arcane Caster level 5th class. Such as Mindbender, or Sand Shaper.

He's using a temp increase to qualify for a class.


And once the tattoo wears off, you no longer qualify for the PrC and immediately lose all the special abilities of said PrC.

You are saying that when he loses the temp increase, he no longer qualifies.


Not usually. Especially not in this case. Mindbender requires CL5. Sorcerer4/Mindbender1 has CL5.

I point out that since he has leveled in the meantime, he does indeed continue to qualify for his Prestige Class.


The abilities gained by taking a level cannot be used to meet prereq's for taking a class at that same level.

This is partially false, and also unrelated. If you gain more than one feat at a level one may be a prereq for the other. As Keld points out, there is an order to leveling which must be followed.


Thus, if you choose Spell Focus: Evil as your 9th level feat, you cannot become an Ur-Priest at the same time... You have to wait until level 10.
Correct. However if you have a Sorcerer10/SacredExorcist4, he can now replace the spell learned he had spent on Dissmissal, because the Sacred Exorcist gets the ability to cast Dispel Evil as a SLA.


Also the training time for gaining a level (especially in a new class) would almost always be greater than the length of time that the tatoo lasted anyway.

Training time is a house rule.


Further, why not use Wild Mage shenanigans to have your effective caster level be high enough to qualify for some of the tougher PrCs? Just roll the die... if you don't get a high enough roll, then don't level up that exact moment. :smallamused:

Mainly because you need three feats and a Class level. Also the wording is sketchy, you only get that bonus for a given spell. This would be akin to using spell-gifted to have a higher CL.

[Doc Roc]

I can get you past any req excluding a skill req.

Can you possibly get Ethran and Leadership? I can get you into hathran, if so.

Can someone check to see if Celestial Mystic is full-casting?

Rainbow Servant will work, if text trumps table.
Sanctum spell(Dragonsblood Pool) + dragonsblood pool + acorn of far travel (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a).

Go to the pool with second level, take sanctum or have sanctum, make the pool your sanctum, drink, get a third level slot, and get an acorn of far travels. Done, zero contention. Just level quick!

[Keld Denar]

How do you get past Leadership requiring level 6? It based on character level, not any other abstract respresentation of level that can be emulated...

[Doc Roc]

How do you get past Leadership requiring level 6? It based on character level, not any other abstract respresentation of level that can be emulated...

He mentioned he was actually a magical beast of some flavor. I was just hoping he might have enough HD. Short of that, I can use one of my many tricks, such as inspire greatness, which grants spare HD. I'd prefer not to, since there is some serious (and reasonable) contention there.

I think Rainbow Servant is your best bet, quite possibly, if text trumps table.

[Last Laugh]

The abilities gained by taking a level cannot be used to meet prereq's for taking a class at that same level.

Thus, if you choose Spell Focus: Evil as your 9th level feat, you cannot become an Ur-Priest at the same time... You have to wait until level 10.

Also the training time for gaining a level (especially in a new class) would almost always be greater than the length of time that the tatoo lasted anyway.

Further, why not use Wild Mage shenanigans to have your effective caster level be high enough to qualify for some of the tougher PrCs? Just roll the die... if you don't get a high enough roll, then don't level up that exact moment. :smallamused:

At the very worst you can use Practiced Caster to qualify after you level. Even if you don't let mindbender add to your casterlevel, practiced caster certainly does, and then you qualify for Mindbender.
Wild Magic only seems to apply during the casting of the spell.

I actually don't know how long it takes to level. Extended Magic Tattoo lasts for 2 days. It looks like it costs 360 gold/casting. You can stay at +1 caster level for quite a while.

[Thurbane]

Thanks for all the suggestions, but I'm going with Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell = Ruathar 1 at level 5. It's relatively simple, it works, and with the Drow adaptation of Ruathar, it fits the character concept. :smallwink:

[dextercorvia]

Thanks for all the suggestions, but I'm going with Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell = Ruathar 1 at level 5. It's relatively simple, it works, and with the Drow adaptation of Ruathar, it fits the character concept. :smallwink:

My personal favorite Early Entry.

[Hazzardevil]

Close - Monstrous Humanoid. I can't go into too many details, as I want to avoid naming the particular race - although you can probably work it out (if you're really interested, PM me).


why can't you name it?

Heres my list of what I think you could use:
Alienist,
Unseen Seer,
Mage of the arcane order,
Wild Mage,
Earth Dreamer,
Geometer,

Presuming text trumps table:
Enlightened fist, presuming you can take 3 feats,

I didn't find any others quickly skimming over several books.