Feelin' Philisophical: Why Is Ignorance Bliss?

[Leliel]

You see that saying all the time-Ignorance is bliss, knowledge brings sorrow, etc.

But what does it mean?

Does literally being less smart make you more happy? Or is it that you believe yourself happy, but that's only because you don't know what happiness actually is?

This thread is a place to navel gaze reflect on that question.

[Xyk]

1. Ignorance is different from lacking intelligence.
2. An ignorant person doesn't know about all the bad things that are happening in the world.
3. There are so many bad things happening in the world, those of us observant folks get depressed now and then.

[Zaydos]

Ignorance allows for hope, and to avoid worries but not knowing of them. Sometimes knowledge brings sorrow.

Look at history; to many people doing so brings sorrow because of how many really bad people there were and how few good ones to balance it out.

Also we are empathetic creatures; we see the suffering of others and we feel sorrow. Contrary to what history, or even modern news, would have you believe most of us are basically good people and don't like the idea of another suffering. You hear about the worst in mankind because it affects us most. So the saying can be true under certain parameters, but in and of itself ignorance is not bliss nor knowledge sorrow. Ignorance generally leads to impotence to fight the woes of the world, yet many people seal themselves to ignorance because they do not want the sorrow these woes bring; but it is only ignorance of woes that leads to greater happiness and even then often only until everything comes crashing down.

And if this seems to be ravings, I might be feverish.

[ZombyWoof]

Long story short: ignorance is not bliss. Ever been around your buddies when they're talking about something you haven't a clue about?

[Ravens_cry]

I guess the logic is if something bad is going to happen you can't do anything about, it is better to not know and not feel that inevitable panic and then have it happen. In both cases, you have something bad happen, but your sum total of happiness is greater because you didn't have the helpless anxiety before the event.
Another example is knowing if something really tasty is bad for you. You are going to eat it anyway, so why tack on guilt with it too?
I am not saying I agree with the logic but that's how I understand it.

[Worira]

I'd tell you what it means, but then you'd be less happy.

[Dr.Epic]

Because do you really want to know every disturbing secret out there (like what goes into a hot dog)?

[TheArsenal]

Because do you really want to know every disturbing secret out there (like what goes into a hot dog)?

Well bowser truly thinks So (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBAay9nPtOU).

Its bliss because you cant feal bad for starving orphans if you preten there are no orphans.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I'd tell you what it means, but then you'd be less happy.

This post is great.

[TimelordSimone]

Ignorance is bliss

Disclaimer: I'm assuming you like cats for the purposes of this exercise.
Let's say I tell you about my cat.
My cat, she had epilepsy. She used to have fits, convulsing on the floor for 5-10 minutes. The poor thing hurt herself quite a few times falling off of things when this happened, and it quite clearly distressed her a great deal.

Now, wasn't your life better before you knew about this?

Quite simply, if you do not know about something (ignorance) you cannot possibly worry about it (bliss).

[Fifty-Eyed Fred]

Ignorance is not bliss; merely delusion. Happiness comes with greater knowledge, not less.

[Ravens_cry]

While knowledge may or may not lead to happiness, it can allow us to potentially avoid future problems of a related nature. Given a possible solution, one can have greater happiness by avoiding the problem in the first place by knowing about it and finding out how to deal with it.

[Mina Kobold]

Ignorance is not bliss; merely delusion. Happiness comes with greater knowledge, not less.

I must agree that knowledge can bring happiness and I pursue knowledge myself, but are you saying that I should be happy knowing about all the killing and atrocities that has happened in the past due to simple prejudice and self-righteous jerks?

Not saying you don't have a point but I personally believe that knowledge (and ignorance for that matter) can be quite the bittersweet fruit.

Hope I haven't misunderstood you, I do not intend to offend anyone. ^_^'

[Maralais]

I'll have to disagree with, Fifty-Eyed Fred, because, just look at the Real Life Fridge Horror examples of TVTropes. It's just a simple fraction of the knowledge out there, and it gives enough despair.

It can get even worse, think about the fact that thinking can be altered by feelings, and as a human being can not be an emotionless guy, we get to the conclusion:

All those thoughts, scientific and philosophical answers you had? Well, let me tell you, they can never be 100% perfect, and you will never be able to actually think clearly. Thought is a baby born handicapped, without a cure.

Examples are neverending, so, just ignore 'em.

[Frozen_Feet]

My thoughts: Ignorance can be a bliss. Not all people are suited to dealing with all facts of life. There are people who'll take some things much more hardly than is healthy, in which case plain not telling them is better than burdening them with needless thoughts. Overall, however, I think knowledge is better than ignorance, and will lead to greater happiness in the long run.

This is not, however, function of knowledge itself; it's a function of an attitude you take towards knowledge. For that attitude, I feel, the ability to ignore is fundamental if you want remain happy.

For example, human memory is highly mutable and suggestible. Some studies go so far as to claim that identity is nothing but an illusion. However, worrying about this fact adds nothing to everyday life. Same goes for billions of little facts that put into question your place in the world. Outside situations that directly deal with such snippets of data, such thoughts are needless. To retain a positive outlook, you must learn to dismiss them as unimportant - willfull ignorance, if you will.

[bluewind95]

I'll give an example.

For many years, I've had pains and aches and stiffness. I didn't know what they were, though, so I just shrugged them off, wondered if I'd slept in an odd position, or otherwise didn't really notice them.

I now know that it is due to fibromyalgia, just like the horrible exhaustion that I have every single day.

... Now I notice the pains all the time and I am reminded about how I'm ill with a condition that's never going to go away...

[DeadManSleeping]

Ignorance of sad things is bliss, because there is nothing to make you sad. This includes being ignorant of what you are ignorant of. The phrase you posted basically assumes that all the world is made of suck, so the more you know, the more unhappy things you know.

[druid91]

It isn't.

Ignorance is unpreparedness.

Preparedness is bliss.

For with proper paranoid levels of preparedness nothing bad will ever happen.

ever...


Now we haven't reached the level of technological development that proper preparedness takes. It's sort of like "Enuff dakka" like that. You can never have enuff dakka, and you can never reach the proper level of preparedness.

[Frozen_Feet]

The problem with paranoia is that sufficient levels of paranoia demonstrably reduce happiness of an invidual. Pessimists might live longer, but optimists have more fun. Expecting and preparing for the worst consumes mental energies that could be used for other stuff.

There is such things as "too prepared". You should heed the advice of disembodied loli heads and take it easy.

http://images.wikia.com/touhou/images/e/e1/Yukkuri_MarisaReimu.png

[Tengu_temp]

Sound advice, but Reimu and Marisa aren't lolis! They're at least teenagers.

[742]

in my experience it can mean a few things:
"you would do [bad thing of appropriate scale] me if you knew that i [thing i dont want you to know], thus not telling you makes my life far better. famous quotes make a great cover"
":smalleek: TMI/please do not elaborate" with optional squick-purge relative to the scale of the revelation.
"stop being so smart! im just as smart as you for being dumb! see? smart person said so so i must be right."
"i have romanticized anti-intellectual sentiment and am feeling very dramatic right now"
"squicksquicksquicksquicksquick"
"i am not proud of/have strong negative emotions associated with [thing], and am going to change the subject now."
"the world is absolutely terrible in every way and we cant fix it all immediately or easily so its best to just cover our ears and shout, or even better to crawl into a ditch and die. it would be way better than living. also you cant ground me; im running away!"
"im choosing to do nothing about that problem in a way that does not fit within my system of morality and/or being a blatant hypocrite. or at least i was until you highlighted my cognitive dissonance. thanks ******."

[Castaras]

Depends on what you're ignorant of.

Knowledge, as in facts and ideas, it is better to know them than not to know them.

Things like what your mum and dad must have done for you to exist are things you would much rather be ignorant about. :smallwink:

[Fontaine]

Well, sometimes one finds themselves so concerned about life and death and how unescapable it is, that they wish they could just forget it and live in the moment

[Trog]

I'm sure someone here could link you to something you wish you could unsee afterward to illustrate why sometimes it is best not to know. :smalltongue:

[drakir_nosslin]

I think of it like this: It's about ignorance of your future life, about how different your life would have been if you had made another decision and all those things that you really can't change.

Knowing about all these things doesn't allow you to change them, but the knowledge that your pet dog might still be alive if you hadn't bought those shoes doesn't make you happier.

However, I'm a firm believer that things that we can change, the death of orphans for example, is something that we should know about, because only when we know about the problems can we work to fix them.

[Kallisti]

I'd say the sentiment of "ignorance is bliss" is better captured by "out of sight, out of mind." You can't think about a problem of which you are ignorant, and you can't be depressed by a problem you can't think about.

[valadil]

So this is a tangent but I read an article last year about depression. The main point of the article is that depression is a state of mind that enables a person to think about themselves in a more analytical, detached way. By removing emotional attachments to ideas, people are better able to evaluate what's going on around them and think in a cold, logical manner. Kinda the opposite of "ignorance is bliss."

[Frozen_Feet]

So this is a tangent but I read an article last year about depression. The main point of the article is that depression is a state of mind that enables a person to think about themselves in a more analytical, detached way. By removing emotional attachments to ideas, people are better able to evaluate what's going on around them and think in a cold, logical manner. Kinda the opposite of "ignorance is bliss."

Uh, I don't follow. If the people are depressed, obviously the ability to be cold and logical is not exactly being a bliss to them. I'd rather be cheery, emotional and a bit illogical than cold and logical at the cost of being depressed. This coming from someone who's watched two members of his family spiral into depression.

EDIT: Or are you just saying this as sort of a proof that knowledge breeds unhappiness?

[bluewind95]

So this is a tangent but I read an article last year about depression. The main point of the article is that depression is a state of mind that enables a person to think about themselves in a more analytical, detached way. By removing emotional attachments to ideas, people are better able to evaluate what's going on around them and think in a cold, logical manner. Kinda the opposite of "ignorance is bliss."

I have to disagree with this article if that is its point. From personal experience, when I'm depressed, I tend to be FAR less objective about evaluating myself. In a very negative way, but still extremely biased.

[nothingclever]

This short story gives a good explanation to the question:
{scrubbed}

[Frozen_Feet]

“I have been studying for forty years...and that is forty years wasted. I teach others, but actually I know nothing. This situation makes me feel so much humiliation and disgust with myself that life is unbearable to me."
For the record, this is, almost word for word, what my father has said to me. He is a teacher... and also depressed.

It seems to me that such attitude grows when additional knowledge makes a person fixate not on how much he knows, but on how much he doesn't know. I think people who regard being wrong as great personal failure are most prone to such attitude - especially if they are teachers or other such people who are responsible of the learning of other people.

[nothingclever]

The story resonates for me because I feel much like the Brahmin when I think about my beliefs. I believe life is meaningless, we have no free will, there is no higher power or afterlife and are better off not existing. At first my uncommon views depressed me and I often thought I might be happier not understanding things as well as I think I do. I still think about how I would feel if I did not believe these things, but now I have largely come to terms with them and become a stronger/better person in a way. Sure it initially sucks to think that since no one is responsible for their actions, no act you perform no matter how great people say it is, is worthy of praise/meaningful and no matter how much you may wish to hate/think less of others or more of yourself you have no reason to, but eventually you move on. You realize the relativity of things and learn to accept them as they are. You also see plenty of opportunities to improve yourself and gain the mindset necessary to do so.

[Weezer]

To me it means not necessarily an ignorance about events in the world, good or bad, but instead a general ignorance about existence itself. The vast majority of people turn away from the facts of life, attempt to fill their lives with comfortable, but ultimately pointless, activities. When you are not ignorant you recognize your own mortality, how radically limited we all are, and most especially the lack of inherent meaning to life. The daily rituals, the constant routine of living leaves many people 'blissfully' ignorant about these aspects of being. When events in our life disrupt this facade, when a death brings our mortality into view, when a random disaster highlights our essential powerlessness, we tend to look back upon our earlier lives nostalgically, as the blissful days of our ignorance.

If you hadn't noticed I'm a bit of an existentialist when it comes to philosophy...



(That was really hard to write without overwhelming you with existential jargon)

[Hawkfrost000]

Ignorance is not bliss; merely delusion. Happiness comes with greater knowledge, not less.

no

ignorance in this case refers to not knowing things like how likely it is that you will not wake up when you go to sleep tonight, the probability that you will be in a car crash, or get cancer, or have a heart attack, or get stabbed, or fall to your death.

with your "greater knowledge" you will be paralyzed with indecision and the perfect knowledge of exactly what risks you are taking.

"ignorance" is living in the moment, not fretting about how past actions affect the present and how present actions will affect the future.


It isn't.

Ignorance is unpreparedness.

Preparedness is bliss.

For with proper paranoid levels of preparedness nothing bad will ever happen.

ever...

that just means that nothing will happen, at all, ever

DM

EDIT: fun thought for the day; Knowledge is the Beginning of Fear

[Rettu Skcollob]

I often remark that I wish I was stupid, so then I could be happy. :smallfrown:

[Frozen_Feet]

Just so you know, every time I hear someone say "lack of inherent meaning in life" or something of the sort, I feel like smacking them around the head with a rotten fish. :smalltongue: They're exactly the kind of thoughts I consider thoroughly needless. They remind me of a story about a miner who reduces a mountain to rubble and the claims nothing of value came of it because there was no gold, completely ignoring that the local villagers would be glad to build homes of the boulders.

Even if life doesn't have inherent meaning, it still has the meaning we give to it. Going on about how "pointless" it might be in some grand, unknowable scheme is utterly useless, as you can still go and do the things that create joy and happiness in your life, and in those of others too. That's possible, because people attach meaning to pieces of crap if they feel like it. Concentrating on those small, given meanings is much more useful, as it actually serves to give direction and sense of purpose to everyday life even in absence of some grand meaning.

[druid91]

no

ignorance in this case refers to not knowing things like how likely it is that you will not wake up when you go to sleep tonight, the probability that you will be in a car crash, or get cancer, or have a heart attack, or get stabbed, or fall to your death.

with your "greater knowledge" you will be paralyzed with indecision and the perfect knowledge of exactly what risks you are taking.

"ignorance" is living in the moment, not fretting about how past actions affect the present and how present actions will affect the future.



that just means that nothing will happen, at all, ever

DM

EDIT: fun thought for the day; Knowledge is the Beginning of Fear

But isn't the greatest fear is the fear of the unknown?

Isn't courage knowing the risks and consciously making the decision to take them anyway?

And living in the moment like that works for Orks, Who while I like their ork-y goodness, and DAKKA, Aren't real.

Living purely for the moment leads to such sayings as "Short yet merry lives have we."Why would nothing happen if proper preparedness is reached?Which it can't be.

[nothingclever]

The thing is, having a special/inherent/universal meaning for existence can become important when you believe conscious nonexistence is superior to sentient existence. Why? Because if you don't have something special to deter you, you may find ending your existence prematurely quite appealng.

[Frozen_Feet]

But isn't the greatest fear is the fear of the unknown?

Nope. The greatest fear is the fear of the "Known Unknown" - something that could happen to you, but there's no way to tell if it actually will.

People don't fear the dark just because they can't see. They fear because the dark might contain predators, criminals and other threats they can't see.

People don't fear "Unknown Unknowns", things that haven't even crossed their mind because... well, they haven't crossed their mind.


Isn't courage knowing the risks and consciously making the decision to take them anyway?
Yes. However, there is such thing as needless courage. Let's take as an example a surgery to mend a serious wound. You can scare the patient half to death by telling him each and every thing that could go wrong, and then ask them whether they want to undertake the procedure. Some times, this is reasonable; some times, why the hell bother, when you're going to do it anyway and he'll be out cold through the whole thing?

The knowledge, and the courage to overcome it, is in no way fundamental to the operation. At worst, it will just cause needless delay and hesitation.


And living in the moment like that works for Orks, Who while I like their ork-y goodness, and DAKKA, Aren't real.
Living for the moment work beautifully well in loads of real-life situations too. Trying to live your whole life that way might not be the wisest course, but there are occasions where thinking of past or future is thoroughly needless.

Living purely for the moment leads to such sayings as "Short yet merry lives have we."Why would nothing happen if proper preparedness is reached?Which it can't be.
First of all, there's nothing wrong with "short and merry life", if it passes by without causing needless amounts of unmerriness in other people. Second, the problem with absolute preparedness, like you yourself say, is that it can't be achieved. There's a point after which expending resources on being prepared ceases to be useful - it's called "diminishing returns".

If trying to prepare for every little things means you can't do anything else, and your life is sucky for it, why not cut some corners and relax once in a while?

[Weezer]

Just so you know, every time I hear someone say "lack of inherent meaning in life" or something of the sort, I feel like smacking them around the head with a rotten fish. :smalltongue: They're exactly the kind of thoughts I consider thoroughly needless. They remind me of a story about a miner who reduces a mountain to rubble and the claims nothing of value came of it because there was no gold, completely ignoring that the local villagers would be glad to build homes of the boulders.

Even if life doesn't have inherent meaning, it still has the meaning we give to it. Going on about how "pointless" it might be in some grand, unknowable scheme is utterly useless, as you can still go and do the things that create joy and happiness in your life, and in those of others too. That's possible, because people attach meaning to pieces of crap if they feel like it. Concentrating on those small, given meanings is much more useful, as it actually serves to give direction and sense of purpose to everyday life even in absence of some grand meaning.

I agree with you to a point. The simple wonderment that can be felt when you stand on a mountain and are just overwhelmed by the world is meaning enough for me. We create the meaning that makes our lives worth living.

But saying that i think it is still important to recognize that there is no inherent meaning in life, that we don't come into this world imbued with some purpose. These thoughts are in no way needless, they are in fact radically freeing. When you accept that life has no meaning you understand that who you are is not dictated by any outside forces. This is also kind of a scary thing, because with this self determination comes with it complete responsibility, something that humans have a tendency to avoid at all costs. This leads to an attempt to conceal this truth behind ignorance, behind some manufactured 'plan' that makes you feel secure.

[druid91]

Nope. The greatest fear is the fear of the "Known Unknown" - something that could happen to you, but there's no way to tell if it actually will.

People don't fear the dark just because they can't see. They fear because the dark might contain predators, criminals and other threats they can't see.

People don't fear "Unknown Unknowns", things that haven't even crossed their mind because... well, they haven't crossed their mind.


Yes. However, there is such thing as needless courage. Let's take as an example a surgery to mend a serious wound. You can scare the patient half to death by telling him each and every thing that could go wrong, and then ask them whether they want to undertake the procedure. Some times, this is reasonable; some times, why the hell bother, when you're going to do it anyway and he'll be out cold through the whole thing?

The knowledge, and the courage to overcome it, is in no way fundamental to the operation. At worst, it will just cause needless delay and hesitation.


Living for the moment work beautifully well in loads of real-life situations too. Trying to live your whole life that way might not be the wisest course, but there are occasions where thinking of past or future is thoroughly needless.

First of all, there's nothing wrong with "short and merry life", if it passes by without causing needless amounts of unmerriness in other people. Second, the problem with absolute preparedness, like you yourself say, is that it can't be achieved. There's a point after which expending resources on being prepared ceases to be useful - it's called "diminishing returns".

If trying to prepare for every little things means you can't do anything else, and your life is sucky for it, why not cut some corners and relax once in a while?

Thanks for nitpicking. You know very well what I meant.

Courage is never needless.

Yes it can work from time to time. It can also cause hideous and tremendous grief.

There is plenty wrong with a short and merry life but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.:smallbiggrin: We both did our best to convince the other and it didn't work.

But preparedness is key! How else does batman win!:smallwink:

In seriousness, I don't mind cutting corners now and then. But ignorance is not bliss. It can bring bliss, but a balance needs to be struck between preparedness and living in the moment.

[lobablob]

It may be hard to contradict the idea of ignorance as bliss, but I think that's more to do with the fact that to contradict it, you must either be ignorant and miserable or knowledgeable and happy - no one wants to admit to being ignorant and to claim to be very knowledgeable sounds arrogant.

Nonetheless, I read a lot more than I did in the past, I know and understand a lot more and I am happier for it. Of course, I am more aware of all that I don't know and there are questions I don't have an answer to that it would never have occurred to me to ask before, but that's exciting, not depressing. I don't believe in any kind of afterlife or reincarnation either (I don't mean this to imply that such a belief is necessarily ignorant), but that doesn't bother me because life is good now.

[graymachine]

At the heart of that truism is the existential crisis inherent in self-awareness through time. Coming to terms, in some form, is natural for every person. Ignorance (read unawareness) of this issue leads to a sense of happiness achieved through denial.

[Weezer]

At the heart of that truism is the existential crisis inherent in self-awareness through time. Coming to terms, in some form, is natural for every person. Ignorance (read unawareness) of this issue leads to a sense of happiness achieved through denial.

Exactly. Well stated good sir!

[Frozen_Feet]

Courage is never needless.


How can you say that when I just outlined a situation where it's needless? :smalltongue:


When you accept that life has no meaning you understand that who you are is not dictated by any outside forces.

Yeah... expect for other people and natural laws.

[Weezer]

Yeah... expect for other people and natural laws.

Other people and natural laws certainly restrict your options, but you always have some choice. By outside forces I meant outside the world, in the predetermined plan sense.

[Frozen_Feet]

I don't find that a partially useful distinction. A self-contained universe can be predetermined still, that predetermination just arises from its internal qualities. Not that worrying about whether it's predetermined or not is particularly useful either.

[Weezer]

I don't find that a partially useful distinction. A self-contained universe can be predetermined still, that predetermination just arises from its internal qualities. Not that worrying about whether it's predetermined or not is particularly useful either.

I guess I agree with your second point. It doesn't really matter if life is determined or not because life feels undetermined so any philosophic system needs to address that.

[VirgoBushin]

I tend to notice we (as in people) are most content when we're not aware of the bad situations going on around us. Thus, ignorance of not knowing everything that's going tends to be blissful for us because all we know is we're content and what's making us that way.

Look at Final Fantasy X for a bit. Those of who have played will at least know what I'm talking about but for the longest time, Tidus for the most part happy. Sure he has a couple stupid arguments with Lulu and the Ronso but all in all, he's pretty happy-go-lucky. But what happens when Rikku explains Yuna getting the last Aeon means she'll die? *snaps fingers* Bam! Instant emo change.

It's things like that type of scenario that better explain why ignorance is supposed to be bliss. The problem is nowadays we have way too many sources to look up all the bad things that are going so we're in a more state of stress and depression rather than ignorant bliss

That's what I believe anyways....

[Leliel]

I actually agree with wheezer here a little.

In my opinion, the world doesn't need a point to be beautiful, and that any meaning we find is simply what we make of it.

It's part of the reason I'm an optimist-to think, how far we've come since the Dark Ages, and from there Prehistory. And a lot of what I see is that people really want the best for other people-they just don't know what other people want.

To offer my opinion, the reason ignorance is bliss is that it's a shield, a way for us to avoid having to think about who we are as a species, as a person. If you know something that clashes with your opinion of the world, you can either file it away as something irrelevant, or evil...or you can take the option of incorporating it into your worldview, and change your opinion.

A lot of that time, that's terrifying.

That's what I think-ignorance is the short and easy path.

[Dvandemon]

Uh, I don't follow. If the people are depressed, obviously the ability to be cold and logical is not exactly being a bliss to them. I'd rather be cheery, emotional and a bit illogical than cold and logical at the cost of being depressed. This coming from someone who's watched two members of his family spiral into depression.

EDIT: Or are you just saying this as sort of a proof that knowledge breeds unhappiness?

I believe it to mean that unhappiness breeds understanding (misery loves company and the related), I've read on cracked that people with a dim outlook were able to recall and analyze with greater depth. While I do not enjoy the fact that they have to feel sad to achieve this I think it show the value of objectivity for problem solving
The story resonates for me because I feel much like the Brahmin when I think about my beliefs. I believe life is meaningless, we have no free will, there is no higher power or afterlife and are better off not existing. At first my uncommon views depressed me and I often thought I might be happier not understanding things as well as I think I do. I still think about how I would feel if I did not believe these things, but now I have largely come to terms with them and become a stronger/better person in a way. Sure it initially sucks to think that since no one is responsible for their actions, no act you perform no matter how great people say it is, is worthy of praise/meaningful and no matter how much you may wish to hate/think less of others or more of yourself you have no reason to, but eventually you move on. You realize the relativity of things and learn to accept them as they are. You also see plenty of opportunities to improve yourself and gain the mindset necessary to do so.

I find it best to live in the moment; you have failings? You must be new to the human condition. It's great to do whatever it takes to give your life meaning and avoid doldrums (I'm currently taking AP Psych and this whole thing is extremely relevant. For all our fears, faults and failures we should remember that we are not alone and can find someone to confide in to overcome. Choose which battles to take but don't despair in the face of defeat, you might not make it through the next trial. I had a much more complete thought but I lost it in my big empty mind; In short, don't be a Wobbly-Headed Bob

[graymachine]

I actually agree with wheezer here a little.

In my opinion, the world doesn't need a point to be beautiful, and that any meaning we find is simply what we make of it.

It's part of the reason I'm an optimist-to think, how far we've come since the Dark Ages, and from there Prehistory. And a lot of what I see is that people really want the best for other people-they just don't know what other people want.

To offer my opinion, the reason ignorance is bliss is that it's a shield, a way for us to avoid having to think about who we are as a species, as a person. If you know something that clashes with your opinion of the world, you can either file it away as something irrelevant, or evil...or you can take the option of incorporating it into your worldview, and change your opinion.

A lot of that time, that's terrifying.

That's what I think-ignorance is the short and easy path.

Summarizing this: Existential Crisis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existential_crisis).

Note the section "handling existential crises."

[Frozen_Feet]

I believe it to mean that unhappiness breeds understanding (misery loves company and the related), I've read on cracked that people with a dim outlook were able to recall and analyze with greater depth. While I do not enjoy the fact that they have to feel sad to achieve this I think it show the value of objectivity for problem solving
I can kinda see where you're coming from now, though it requires jumping through some hoops. You mean to say that depressed people, as a way of coping with depression and dragging themselves out of it, resort to objectivity and logic - is this correct?

Anyways, having watched a depressed person up close, I'm not sure if I can sign that.

[graymachine]

Outside of the philosophical reasons of this truism, I expect this is an outgrowth of the common social assumption expressed in its reverse, i.e. "knowledge is depressing." This is indicated by any number of literary or film characterizations of intellectuals and seems to be, for the most part, untrue. As knowledge increases, happiness, as well as other mental states, are redefined from the perspective of the individual; while I usually disregard any discussion dealing with subjectivity, that is the nature of states such as, "happiness."

This seems more a curious outgrowth of the villianizing of the intellectual that, at least in this form, arose in the 19th century and persists in various forms, as seem in this political cartoon of the time:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Nast-intellect.png

Interestingly, the very intelligent are not the popular image of a cold, clinical, antisocial, withdrawn misfit. Feynman, for example, was a charming, warm, and insightful man. Perhaps a more common example would be Carl Sagan. Or, perhaps, Richard Dawkins. All of them are/were generally happy people and none of them would have made the argument of this truism.

[Frozen_Feet]

If depression makes people more logical, it might be that the idea "knowledge is depressing" is common people putting it wrong way around due to misperception; ie. they mix correlation and causation.

[graymachine]

The idea that depression makes people more logical doesn't follow. Depression is an emotional state, so perhaps one could say that it makes a person more emotional. Although it is anecdotal, no one I've observed as depressed has had a noted increasing in the ability to solve logic problems. While this is not proof, of course, it seems to follow in a thought experiment that a person could easily continue to be illogical while depressed; indeed, such a state could lead to forms of delusion. I believe the word meant here were 'logical' is being used is cynical, which is a very different thing; hence why I made the point about anti-intellectualism's place in modern culture.

[Frozen_Feet]

Agree about potential mix-up between logical and cynical. However, after reading the Cracked article myself, it really does seem to imply that negative thinking can, at least temporarily, increase memory and quick thinking. No idea how correct it is, though.

[graymachine]

Can't find the article so I can't comment to the validity of the research, so instead I would make the point that Cracked is a comedy site; their goal is not to honestly present research findings but to make with the funnies.

I could see the point that negative thinking could make a person more critical, but that is not necessarily the same as being logical or skeptical. If, in a depressed state, I claim that every person in the world is actively "out to get me, and provide robust, complex examples, that does not make said examples logical, although they could be highly critical delusions.

As an aside, I think that liquor is affecting my English. Apologies.

[Geno9999]

I just want to bring this up (because I'm lazy and don't want to read all of the thread):
If Ignorance is Bliss, then why aren't there more happy people?

[Dvandemon]

Because the direct correlation between ignorance=bliss and happiness=sorrw hasn't been proven yet and a census can't be enacted :smalltongue:

Now @^^:Being more critical could cause a logical analysis, it depends on what you mean by critic

[Hawkfrost000]

But isn't the greatest fear is the fear of the unknown?

Isn't courage knowing the risks and consciously making the decision to take them anyway?

And living in the moment like that works for Orks, Who while I like their ork-y goodness, and DAKKA, Aren't real.

Living purely for the moment leads to such sayings as "Short yet merry lives have we."Why would nothing happen if proper preparedness is reached?Which it can't be.

exactly, it cant be reached because proper preparedness is doing nothing. at all.

and thus taking no risks

also living in the moment is not just for da orkses but also is a fundamental part of Buddhism and other Philosophies, thank you for offending thousands of people.

[druid91]

exactly, it cant be reached because proper preparedness is doing nothing. at all.

and thus taking no risks

also living in the moment is not just for da orkses but also is a fundamental part of Buddhism and other Philosophies, thank you for offending thousands of people.

No, doing nothing is doing nothing. You are most certainly not properly prepared if you do nothing.

Example. A perfect master of proper preparedness is sitting at home, and a tree falls in his yard towards the roof during a storm, the PMoPP hits a button on his couch which causes the tree to explode making all the harmless bits of tree bounce off his armour plated roof.

Your "do nothing" preparer is crushed when a tree lands on his head.

Taking no risks is not the same as preparing for all risks.

I doubt they will take offense that I believe differently.

My experience and the experience of those I know has confirmed beyond a shadow of doubt that not having a plan is bad.

[valadil]

Uh, I don't follow. If the people are depressed, obviously the ability to be cold and logical is not exactly being a bliss to them. I'd rather be cheery, emotional and a bit illogical than cold and logical at the cost of being depressed. This coming from someone who's watched two members of his family spiral into depression.


By opposite of ignorance is bliss, I meant "rationality is misery." It's one of those double opposites that doesn't really invert meaning.

[GolemsVoice]

I don't think that ignorance is bliss is aimed at the larger truths in life, and scientific progress, but rather the small things, concrete things that we are better of not knwoing.

So, knowing a great deal about languages, for example, or astronomy, or chemistry does not make me unhappy. Knowledge in the sense of accumulated answers doesn't bring unhappiness.

But many organizations that protest against something try to show how miserable the thing that they protest against is. They show how awful animals have to life, how terrible refugees suffer while fleeing their homes, etc. Most people who don't care for these things won't know about them, so these organizations try their best to SHOW them. So now every time these perosons eat a hot dog, they might think about all the awful things done to animals. They can no longer eat their hot dog in complete, meaty innocence. Most people manage to ignore this, however, which shows that the human brain has mechanism to block out things we don't really want to remember.

Another food example: You eat something, and it's deliecious. You eat, and eat, and finally ask your host what it IS you're eating. He tells you it's something you find gross (but which would be edible all right) While the stuff remains the same, you probably don't want to eat it anymore. Knowing what it was you ate puts you off the food, and had you not learned what it was, you might have blissfully continued eating.

[Hawkfrost000]

No, doing nothing is doing nothing. You are most certainly not properly prepared if you do nothing.

Example. A perfect master of proper preparedness is sitting at home, and a tree falls in his yard towards the roof during a storm, the PMoPP hits a button on his couch which causes the tree to explode making all the harmless bits of tree bounce off his armour plated roof.

Your "do nothing" preparer is crushed when a tree lands on his head.

Taking no risks is not the same as preparing for all risks.

I doubt they will take offense that I believe differently.

My experience and the experience of those I know has confirmed beyond a shadow of doubt that not having a plan is bad.

but to prepare for risks you must take risks that since you are still building your anti risk phalanx, you will not be protected against.

will you be able to take those risks?

[Weezer]

It seem to me that this living in the moment vs perfect preparedness fits into the typical chaos vs order debate. If you take chaos, in this case living in the moment, too far there is no consistency or safty in your life and everything dissolves into pure anarchy while on the other hand if you embrace order to its fullest, in this case by negating every risk, you are paralyzed by the need to maintain the status quo until everything freezes. What is really needed is a happy medium, where you prevent the most egregious risks but still take advantage of the opportunities that appear moment to moment.

[druid91]

but to prepare for risks you must take risks that since you are still building your anti risk phalanx, you will not be protected against.

will you be able to take those risks?

Of course, until such time as you are perfectly prepared you must take risks. The more you prepare yourself the less risks you have to take.


It seem to me that this living in the moment vs perfect preparedness fits into the typical chaos vs order debate. If you take chaos, in this case living in the moment, too far there is no consistency or safty in your life and everything dissolves into pure anarchy while on the other hand if you embrace order to its fullest, in this case by negating every risk, you are paralyzed by the need to maintain the status quo until everything freezes. What is really needed is a happy medium, where you prevent the most egregious risks but still take advantage of the opportunities that appear moment to moment.

Exactly. I like my ideal of perfect preparedness but being absolutely prepared like that just isn't practical if you want to do anything else.