Sevenfold Veil [3.5] I am confused about the Saves

[pres_man]

A player of mine is using this PrC.

I am a bit confused on the saving DC for the different veils.

It says on p. 46, "The save DC for an initiate's warding is equal to 18+her primary spellcasting modifier."

Ok. Now can that include any other things? Is the warding considered an abjuration effect, so that (greater) spell focus applies?

In the sample on p. 47 it says that the save DC for the red and orange veil is 17 and 18 respectively. Red is a fourth level spell equivalent and orange is a 5th level. The sample initiate has an Int of 17 (+3 modifier). It looks to me like they set the DC as a 4th/5th level spell.

So is the sample initiate not using the 18+Int Mod, like it says on p. 46.

I am really confused.

The player tried to apply his Unimpeachable Abjuration to his save DCs. I told him that does not apply. Still though I am confused as to what does.

[RaggedAngel]

The Warding effect is a supernatural ability, meaning that Spell Focus and abilities such as Unimpeachable Abjuration that affect his spells do not apply. The stat blocks of the sample characters are also notoriously incorrect; however, I have to say that the save DC's would make more sense as determined by the spell level of the Veil's used. This may be a case of two writers with conflicting opinions. However, RAW says that the DC is 18+Ability Mod for each an every Veil, and that the sample character is incorrect.

[pres_man]

It is actually a spell-like ability (Sp), does that change anything?

[cheezewizz2000]

It says on p. 46, "The save DC for an initiate's warding is equal to 18+her primary spellcasting modifier."

My interpretation of that piece of text is "18+int/wis/cha modifier (which ever is used to determine maximum spell level that can be cast)". That's is more in line with other class abilities from other prestige classes and makes simple sense.

As DM, I don't think it is unreasonable to allow them to apply any abjuration specific modifiers to save DCs from other sources. It's fun having high numbers, but as ever talk to your player about his class abilities and be flexible. If you think that he'll be too powerful, ask him to play to your rules for a few sessions and explain that you'll retcon and bump his DCs up if he feels he is failing too often. That's why D&D is such a great game, the DM can make your broken "fights with a stick and bin lid" hobo-fighter a bit better if he's falling behind the curve.

[Psyren]

It is actually a spell-like ability (Sp), does that change anything?

If you're asking whether SLAs benefit from Spell Focus, the answer is no. You'd need Ability Focus instead, and I'm not even sure the veils can benefit from that.

[Keld Denar]

Why not? You could totally take Ability Focus (Veils), which would make your DC 20 + stat, rather than 18 + stat.

[Psyren]

Why not? You could totally take Ability Focus (Veils), which would make your DC 20 + stat, rather than 18 + stat.

Because AF is applied to a creature's "special attack" and I'm not sure the veils qualify. I'd allow it personally of course, but I can see why someone might not.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Because AF is applied to a creature's "special attack" and I'm not sure the veils qualify. I'd allow it personally of course, but I can see why someone might not.

If you can apply it to Warlock Invocations, I don't see why not

[Mecharious]

Would you need to apply ability focus to each individual veil, or could you affect them all with one feat?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Would you need to apply ability focus to each individual veil, or could you affect them all with one feat?

Depends. I don't have the book in front of me. Do you get them as separate abilities, or as one big ability with several sub-categories? If the latter, then I think you could cover them all with one ability.

[Keld Denar]

Its all one ability. One ability, one abilty focus.

[pres_man]

Thanks folks, it looks like the 18+Ability is the appropriate DC.

[BobVosh]

The only question I have is this: People actually look at the sample characters?