[3.0] Tips for a guy new at playing a Paladin? [Archive]

Razgriez

2011-02-22, 01:45 AM

Hello there ladies, and gentlemen, newbie here on the forums, would like to ask a bit of a question to those who are veterans in playing as a Paladin, for DnD 3.0 (not 3.5)

Recently, I asked a question on Yahoo Answers... and I got the typical mixed bag of junk and occasional decent/good answer. The question being the following:

Here is what your working DnD veterans
DnD 3.0 (not 3.5) Rule set, so anything 3.5 or outside the Players Hand Book, needs DM approval first
Human Paladin (1st level)
Ability Scores: STR 18 (+4), DEX 13 (+1), CON 14 (+2), INT 11 (+0), WIS 14 (+2), CHA 17 (+3)
Ability score plans are to Boost INT and DEX (probably by Level ups) by one each for the boost to the Modifiers, Upgrade Charisma to 18 (+4) by 12th level.
Standard Package Paladin (Longsword, Shortbow, Scale armor, Large Shield)
Current feat selection is just the Human Bonus: Weapon Focus Longsword

Additional Campaign Related issue: Cold Weather Constant factor, Constant Darkness (World is stuck in an Eternal Night, Stars can be seen, when a Snow storm isn't moving in, but no sun light)
Main Enemy will be Shadows type creatures, with some undead like qualities (Can be Turned by Clerics and Paladins, Take damage from some Healing spells and abilities, including Lay on Hands. Weak vs. ANY magical light spell. Can Possess and cause mutation of other creatures they possess. while possessing a creature, may enter areas with magical light in them with no harm.

Party includes, aside from my paladin, 2 Clerics, a Bard, and a Druid.

So far, my current Ideas include a "Front Line fighter" focus path of Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack, Buying a Lance, Spirited Charge, and Improved Critical (Longsword)

2nd idea: Defensive "Tanking" style: focus on defensive feats such as Blind Fight, (for when outside of lighted areas/fighting shadows), Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Great Fort. etc

3rd idea (Requires DM Approval) involves taking the "Combat Form Feats" from the 3.5 book: Players Handbook II
Additional Info: World is cold and frozen the DM has told us, that all PC start off automatically with the "Cold Weather Outfit" gear to compensate

Shadows: -"The shadows, being immaterial creatures, for the most part can not be harmed"- This confirms that Shadows probably have Incorporeal traits as M P suspected.
-Can possess/infect any creature outside of a light field. Current form of resistance, unknown (Probably Will or Fort) This includes both living and dead creatures (Living so far, appears to gain mutations over time, while dead become typically zombies.)
-Shadows (Whether out in the open, or possessing a creature) can be Turned/Destroyed by a Turn Undead/Shadows check. They are also affected by the Sun Domain bonus power of a Cleric
-Very Weak versus Light/Holy Magic. a Low powered Shadow is bound to be destroyed if merely caught within the effects of even Tier 0 or 1 spells like Light and Dancing Lights
-Gains total resistance to light magic area of effect while possessing another creature. Common tactic with low powered creatures is to leave their bodies and send them on their way to attack targets inside a light field
-Shadows possess a measure of intelligence in battle, with a target priority on Clerics and then other users of divine power it seems.
-Shadows can possess even Dragons... as our party found out this past game, as the NPC Higher level Cleric aide for our intro got carried away to fates unknown by a shadow possessed red dragon, and probably not going to end pretty.

I should mention, I also got permission to buy a Saber, and switch weapon focus to that, from my DM (The saber being from the Forgotten Realms book, Same stats as a Longsword, except cost 20, instead of 15, Gold, deals Slashing AND Piercing damage, and provides a +1 Circumstance (Equipment) bonus to attack rolls while mounted.)

So any suggestion anyone?

And don't worry, I am not playing him as "Lawful Stupid".

Duncan_Ruadrik

2011-02-22, 01:52 AM

Razgriez

2011-02-22, 01:57 AM

dont bother with weapon focus.

At level 6, pick up Sword of the Arcane Order feat from Champions of Valor, a forgotten realms book. rejoice in the awesomeness of casting wizard spells and paladin spells. (once you find/borrow a spellbook that is)
Two problems
1. I lack a "Champions of Valor" book
2. DM approval needed for that. Last thing I need to do is annoy him with various rule request. He's also likely to deny me from using that.... Not to mention.. No wizard in the party

Additional thing, Forgot to mention. To those of you who may have forgotten, a key difference between a 3.0 Paladins and 3.5, comes down to the "Smite Evil Ability", 3.0's version is a Once per Day use ability, (Still CHA bonus to Attack, Paladin level to Damage).

That and if I recall correctly, 3.0 Special mounts work more like traditional mounts, you summon one, and it stays with you

Razgriez

2011-02-22, 02:04 AM

My answers will be in Blue

To help us help you:

What books/sources are allowed?
Without permission, 3.0 PHB and DMs guide. With permission pretty much anything else, probably limited to 3.0 materials. This includes some of the class "Splat" books like Defenders of the Faith. It needs personal review and approval by the DM himself
What level will you be starting at?
1
Do you know what the rest of your party will be?
Party includes, aside from my paladin, 2 Clerics, a Bard, and a Druid.
Are there any houserules or campaign notes that might be relevant?
https://sites.google.com/site/shadownightcampeign/

The rules are pretty limited info since the campaign just started. Expect primary threats to be the previously mentioned shadows I made note of in my first post, plust Cold weather

nyarlathotep

2011-02-22, 03:59 AM

First off as soon as you can find a way to get haste as frequently as possible be it the party wizard casting it on you or through an item. At lowwer levels haste allows you to get two attacks in a single round and at higher levels it allows you to move and full attack in the same round. A particularly good way to get this is the speed armor enchantment from Defenders of the Faith.

Second thing to remember is that crits are very easy to get in 3.0 and they multiply your smite damage, so it would be wise to start with a high crit weapon (scimitar or rapier are best, but the saber will do) then get improved critical and make your main weapon keen.

Next thing is to decide on your fighting style. Usually you are going to want to do as much with as few attacks as possible because your smites are in limited supply, two weapon fighting is usually out unles you can get a bunch of the shield bash feats from Sword and Fist (fighter/monk splat).

Just in general the most helpful non-core books for you will be Defenders of the Faith (cleric/paladin splat) and Sword and Fist. Sword and Fist is mostly for feats while Defenders has feats, weapons, and prestige classes. The most useful feats from these are Divine Might (trade in your turn undead attempts for damage when not fighting undead), the shield bash line if you are doing sword and board, and extra smiting if you happen to run low.

Sadly there are very few prestige classes that advance smite evil and thus unless you are just dipping paladin it is unlikely you will want to take any. The only ones that leap off the page at me would be Holy Liberator if you turn to chaos (still good just chaotic) and Templar. Both advance smite and provide interesting options but give you a new spell progression rather than advancing paladin spells, this can be a good or bad thing depending on how you look at it and how much you like or dislike paladin spells.

Also if you're willing to go for a little bit of cheese you can dip one level bard and get all of the performances just by investing ranks into perform. Flavor the perform as being you shouting righteous prayers about defeating your enemies using perform (oratory) and you can still fight while performing.

Kerghan

2011-02-22, 04:50 AM

Are you doing point buy, or rolling for your stats? The problem with Paladins is that the class relies heavily on your ability scores. Strength for the effectiveness of your melee attacks (I assume that you're going to be on the front line, otherwise you would've played a cleric), Constitution for hit points (once again, assuming you're on the front line), Wisdom for spells (which isn't going to be much of an issue until you hit 4th level), and Charisma for the effectiveness of your Smite Evil ability, and for higher saving throws. To be honest, past level 6, there isn't much of a reason to stick with straight Paladin progression except for your special mount, which if Cavalier is an option in 3.0 (I think it's out of Defenders of the Faith), you might consider multiclassing too.

With crumby skill points, enormous alignment and multiclass restrictions, as well as only one strong save, Paladins are kind of a difficult class to manage. If you decide to hit the Cavalier angle and try to covet your special mount, mounted combat feats can be extremely potent, but are woefully lacking in situational versatility. If you go some place where your mount can't fit (most likely every dungeon you'll encounter), you will be seriously handicapped and unable to utilize your build's full potential. Spirited Charge comboed with a lance and a badass mount could make for a terrifying combination. However, because of the all the feats required, you might not hit that potential until mid to high levels, unless you take levels of fighter, or your dm is allowing character flaws. You could also opt for a race that starts with an extra feat (such as Humans and a particular subrace of halflings). With the halfling race, you could even get a mount that fits into narrow spaces.

Razgriez

2011-02-22, 10:19 AM

To Kerghan: Dice Roll: My stats I have are as follows
I am a human
Ability Scores: STR 18 (+4), DEX 13 (+1), CON 14 (+2), INT 11 (+0), WIS 14 (+2), CHA 17 (+3)
The alignment issue doesn't really strike me as terrible, as I typically play Lawful Good Character. And by Lawful good, I mean Code of honor, does good deads. Not the Miko "Lawful stupid" either.

Here's an example.A fighter class character I'm playing in another campaign, is also Lawful Good, who thanks to his training he received. bounds him self to a 7 point code of honor, called "realities" for combat which I got the idea from a webcomic series I once read.
1. Only draw your sword against someone if you mean to draw blood, be it theirs or your own (aside from friendly sparring matches and training of course)
2. There is no enemy more skilled or ruthless than your self. (in other words: You are the master of your own fate, and your success or downfall depends solely upon your actions and choices)
3. If your opponent can not fight, they can not win. (In other words, disabling them is just as good as killing them. No killing in cold blood someone who has been disabled in combat or who has surrendered.)
4.Look to the past, peer to the future, and you fail the challenge of the present
5. Anger is a weapon that only serves your enemy.
6. Vengeance can not exist, for it will not end. Justice must exist, for it is not what is always desired
7. Above all else, Life. You face only your brother or sister in combat.

To me, the only other additional restriction to my typical play is that I must help as much as possible those in need, since I now walk around with divine powers of healing, and that I should not show mercy against those that deserve none... which should be pretty darn easy considering the enemy is unrepentantly evil. The closest I've come to offering mercy, is offering a prayer for those whose bodies had been corrupted by the Shadows, before cutting them down.

To Nylar: Trying to avoid Fighter and fighter hybrid prestige classes this time around, part of the reason for me selecting a paladin, is because it's been recently begun to look like I've played fighter to death and I want to take a bit of a break from doing Two-weapon attack spam builds, and the standard "Spikey Haired guy with big sword" builds. In other words, Paladin is a way for me to keep the game fresh for me.
Also as noted before, party already has a Bard. Personally in my view, seems a bit silly to be singing songs, while the bard is already doing that, instead of using the already provided Paladin Buffing spells.

Gnaeus

2011-02-22, 10:37 AM

2. DM approval needed for that. Last thing I need to do is annoy him with various rule request. He's also likely to deny me from using that.... Not to mention.. No wizard in the party

So any suggestion anyone?

My suggestion? Ask the DM for one of many paladin fixes, or consider playing something else.

Clerics are like paladins, but better, even in 3.0. The Druid can outfight you. His pet can probably tank as well as you can. He can summon things that can tank as well as you can. Every member of your party is more powerful than you, and can heal.

With open splatbook support (battle blessing, devotion feats, wand chambers, spell support), a 3.5 paladin has a solid niche. 3.0, not so much. If you are aware that you are likely to be the weakest member of your party, and that is ok with you, go with it. If not, consider the following:

1: 3.0 paladin is a 2 level class. Get Cha to saves, then move on to something better. Paladin 2/Sorcerer X would have a good place in that party.
or
2: Talk with your DM about power levels of various characters in 3.0/3.5. Point out that a 7th level cleric is one spell away (divine power) from being a paladin + full spellcasting. Ask him if he will be helping you with balance issues. If he wants some suggestions on how to improve Paladin relative to cleric, point him in the direction of the Pathfinder SRD (available free on line) as the Pathfinder paladin is widely regarded as a significant improvement.

nyarlathotep

2011-02-22, 11:27 AM

To Nylar: Trying to avoid Fighter and fighter hybrid prestige classes this time around, part of the reason for me selecting a paladin, is because it's been recently begun to look like I've played fighter to death and I want to take a bit of a break from doing Two-weapon attack spam builds, and the standard "Spikey Haired guy with big sword" builds. In other words, Paladin is a way for me to keep the game fresh for me.
Also as noted before, party already has a Bard. Personally in my view, seems a bit silly to be singing songs, while the bard is already doing that, instead of using the already provided Paladin Buffing spells.

Sorry if my advice seemed to be pushing for the wrong direction, but I don't think I ever advised taking fighter or fighter-related prestige classes. Holy Liberator is a chaotic good version of blackguard which is just in case you want to change alignment and templar is pretty much a straight prestige class for paladins. Unless what you're saying is that you don't want prestige classes period in which case I apologize for wasting your time.

Even then the feat and haste related advice still stands. In 3.0 either your DM bans haste or everyone needs to have it.

Razgriez

2011-02-22, 12:55 PM

Ah apologies for making it seem that way, nyarlathotep. Allow me to clarify

I know of which two classes you are talking about. When playing a class, and considering multi-classing/Prestige, there is one major litmus test it needs to pass, before I select it.

"Does it make sense in Role play"

Think of it from my characters prospective

My character was orphaned by the primary enemy of the game, the Shadows, which attacked his family. He was rescued by the Paladin order. He's trained with them, for over 10 years, to earn the right to become a Paladin. It's a high honor to him, and he owes the Order his life in helping to defend others and seeking a solution to the world's problem of the shadows, even if it means bringing happiness and hope to the living, and final peace to those corrupted by the shadows.

A Holy Liberator, is useful for say, an Ex-paladin that is still good, I.E. a Paladin that still wants to do good, but feels his order were more Tyrants than protectors of the weak., or alternatively, that there was too much Red tape and looking to be less bound than to various codes. Problem is, the Order has done none of this to have my character wake up and go "I'm having issues with my order, I don't think I'm cut out to follow the codes of a Paladin anymore, but I want to still do good. Maybe I should instead forge my own path, not constrained by the laws and nuances of society"

The Templar is alright, but I'd like something a little bit more than beefed up Fighter/Paladin Hybrid.
Plus there is other issue, the Deity weapon part.
Religion in this "Shadownight Campaign" is different than the standard pantheons. It's not like "Oh here's Heironeous, god of Valor. And then here is Hextor, his evil brother, god of tyrants.. and over there is Cthulu god of .... OH SWEET UNHOLY LOVECRAFTIAN HORROR!!!! *proceeds to bash head against a stone wall until unconscious/dead*"

Think of it more as a Westernized version of Japan's Shinto religion. In other words, people pray to the various spirits of various objects or so. It's perfectly acceptable for a Sun Domain Cleric, to also give worship to the moon or stars, when needed, for example.

That, and of course, when I asked the DM, he said he was working on the "Favored weapon" part of the various spirits, since A. it's early in the game. He's still deciding a few things. B. I'm no where near levels where I would need to focus on this aspect of playing a Divine class

Jayabalard

2011-02-22, 05:16 PM

Multi classing out of Paladin does not necessarily (GM dependant; talk to your DM about this) mean that you stop being a paladin or have to leave your order. You only become an Ex-paladin if you change alignments or grossly violate your code. So you shouldn't disregard ideas just because they involve multi classing.

Sillycomic

2011-02-22, 07:21 PM

Mounted paladins with a lance can be pretty devastating, so long as a lot of the campaign fights are out in an open field and there's no flying monsters.

Don't worry about tanking. With 2 clerics and a druid you should focus on doing as much damage as possible. There are people to heal you and people to buff you. Just slap on the best armor you can and spend everything else on damage!

No power attack? For shame! Get it ASAP!

Other than that, take a look at the Paladin Handbook. You'll find way more suggestions in there (other than play a cleric...)

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870162/The_Paladins_Handbook_--_2007

Race? Play a neanderthal! Free Weapon Focus, bonus to strength and con, plus it comes from Frostburn. In a world that is been knocked back into the ice age, playing a neanderthal makes a lot of sense.

"I'm having issues with my order, I don't think I'm cut out to follow the codes of a Paladin anymore, but I want to still do good. Maybe I should instead forge my own path, not constrained by the laws and nuances of society"

Considering these shadow things have been wreaking havoc on your world since you were a little child and your order hasn't done much other than save the occasional child from slaughter, I would say it makes lots of sense role playing wise.

"Hey, I love this order, but we're not making any headway against these shadow thingies. Perhaps I should open my mind to other options because as much as I wanna be a paladin of this order... my real goal is to destroy the things that killed my family and turned me into an orphan in the first place."

Callista

2011-02-22, 08:57 PM

Okay:
Don't worry about the Dexterity. +1 is the highest armor bonus you can get in full plate, and that's all you really need. Charisma is much more useful to you as a paladin.

Your early feats should be prerequisites for prestige classes, if you want to go into a prestige class. You note that anything non-PhB needs DM approval, so get that before you go investing feats. Later on you should be getting feats that let you use your weak Turn Undead to do useful stuff, but you can't get those until you can actually turn undead.

Alignment stuff: You're a new player and you're playing a paladin. This is an RP-heavy class and it always has been. Get a Phylactery of Faithfulness; this is basically an item that will let your paladin concentrate briefly and answer moral dilemmas. If you're starting at level 1, you probably can't afford one, so make sure to invest some Knowledge (Religion) ranks and make a check whenever you are trying to figure out what the best option is for your character to take. (Also useful for identifying undead and their weaknesses.)

Regarding things making sense in RP: Many odd mechanical choices can actually spark interesting backstory ideas. There are some things that really are too far-fetched, but don't throw things aside just because they aren't obvious at first. You may end up with a unique personality and backstory precisely because you picked an odd character combination.

Razgriez

2011-02-23, 05:18 PM

Ok, was busy handling some things in real life. Time to answer replies

First off, to reiterate on some major points... The stats I posted in the topic opening post, are pretty much set in stone. The only change, which is also noted in the same post, is that the DM has given me permission to switch to a Saber and apply my current Weapon Focus feat to that.

I should note before I started this topic, I did tell the DM, that the other Feat I selected (The Weapon focus was my Human bonus). I also selected "Blind Fight" as my other feat, in case there is a point when a light magic field fails and I end up having to fight unseen foes.

Didn't think about before hand. about the Sunder before, I'll have to keep it in mind, still, that would be more limited to only foes with armor and gear. Shadows, not so much.

To all three who have replied since my last post: Regarding the Role play issue. My fault, I kinda horribly worded that a bit.

I guess what I meant to say was, if I multi/prestige class, I'm looking for something that would fit well, and be convince my character to leave the path of a regular Paladin. Be it an upgraded Prestige class. or multi-class. I want it to be meaningful in game, and not having to explain in some goofy way that the only reason I switched class, was because a various amount of mathematical crunching, basing on stats and what's not, declares that somehow I'd be more effective purely by game rules.

I understand that just because I prestige or multi-class, doesn't mean a Paladin is somehow an ex-paladin. But still, the extra aspect, that once I switch to another class (unless noted otherwise) I can never return back to leveling Paladin, I want to be sure I'm ready to jump away from the Paladin class, and not come back to regret it latter

To Callista: Actually I'm not a new player ^_^;; (Been playing for about a Decade now in DnD, and played as Fighters, and even once as a Duskblade, and another time as a Monk)

Thanks for the advice on the Dex though. I'm typically used to playing Fighters with a speed focus (Chain Shirts/Mithral Medium armors). I'm probably going to drop consideration on upgrading that with bonus points gained through leveling.

As for the magic item, not so sure, the DM is more into story related rewards. So that's a big maybe.

To Sillycomic: First off, thank you for the link to the "Paladin handbook". Much appreciated.

As for power attack, true, but I tend to often forget I even have it, maybe use it once or twice per campaign. but I do tend to use it for Cleave Feats (Which I'm using to great effect, in another campaign, that's currently on hiatus to have my Monk just wiping the ground with entire squads of hob goblins. and for extra effect, I even gave him Roundhouse kick which gives me a bonus attack whenever I score a critical hit. Who needs 2d6 damage giant swords, when you can just give a boot to the head, or 5 of them, to whatever gets in your way)

As for the other ideas (racial, reason to shift from Paladin as soon as poosible), see first post for restrictions on content restriction (Core Rulebooks 3.0 only, Splat books, and other materials need DM's approval)
Also already selected human as my race (Core races only)

The Holy Order of the world, it's actually viewed quite favorably by NPCs. Paladins take up to volunteering to provide defense for traveling caravans, as do many clerics. Anyone with access to Light generating magic who can help provide aid. I picked the whole "Orphaned and saved by the Paladin order" for my character bio. Trust me, the Divine Casters are doing everything short of suicidal options to ensure the world can survive (it was them that pioneered the Light Barrier enchantments to cities and towns to protect them from Shadows). This includes also providing means of helping crops survive and grow, despite the eternal night issue, and taking part in caravans to bring essential goods to towns. And don't forget, there are 2 other PC Clerics in the party, and catching flak from them would be inadvisable.

Jayabalard: See the Role Play note above. I'm not tossing away the idea of multi-classing/Prestige, but I'm also not going to replace Role play for Roll play. that's just one of my major concerns.

Callista

2011-02-23, 05:30 PM

To Callista: Actually I'm not a new player ^_^;; (Been playing for about a Decade now in DnD, and played as Fighters, and even once as a Duskblade, and another time as a Monk) I am officially relieved. I've seen too many players have their fun ruined by trying to play RP-heavy classes when they are still new to RP. But paladins are just so much fun, however hard they are to play sometimes, that it's just plain worth it. I mean, it's just the iconic D&D knight-in-shining-armor; who doesn't want to try that once in a while?

Power Attack and Cleave: Here's the question: Does your DM tend to use lots of high-AC, low-HP monsters? Or does he tend to use more low-AC, high-HP monsters? Power Attack is great for the second sort, not so useful for the first sort. Cleave is useful, but may not be worth a feat depending on what else is available. Don't bother with Great Cleave; you won't get to use it often enough to make it worthwhile.

Charging is definitely a powerful option for a paladin, but it's not the only option out there. You are also very durable and can probably soak up a good deal of damage--you're hard to hit, and you have enough HP to take a few hits when they do get through; your high saves make you resistant to magic, too. There are some feats (I'm thinking of Goad but there are probably others) which allow you to deliberately make your character a target. This is useful because usually, the paladin can take the punishment, but the squishy types the paladin is traveling with can't; so your party takes less damage overall. It also gets them into melee reach for your character to attack; you'll probably be weak at range.

I highly recommend investing in Diplomacy (along with the obvious Concentration and Knowledge(Religion)) for your paladin. Your charisma score should make you good at it, and your class makes you automatically trustworthy to most non-Evil people who know what a paladin is. It might get you out of some conflicts without even needing to fight, which is always a bonus. If you're really going to pour the points into Diplomacy, though, you should make sure your DM is preventing brokenness at later levels by doing something about the flat DCs. Turning them into opposed checks somehow is a decent solution, so that it remains a challenge even once it gets to the point that, using normal rules, you'd be able to hit the DCs to talk down every attacking enemy even at -10 for rushed checks... Obviously, that shouldn't be possible, but it's a pretty easy fix.

Razgriez

2011-02-23, 07:28 PM

Never ever bothered to take Great Cleave (and if I ever do, it's solely going to be because it's given as a bonus ability of a class). Pretty much for the same reason as you stated. Great Cleave is a feat that promotes getting too greedy for bonus kills in combat, that will cause two things in my view:

1. eventually find your character having cleaved his/her way right into the center of an enemy army, and swarmed to death

2. Rarely ever used, and thus, wasted skill slot.

As for Goad, never heard of it, but it sounds tempting, and turns the Paladin into a version of Paladins I'm somewhat used to playing in MMORPGs.

So far, been keeping an eye on those skills you listed, along with some Heal and Ride skills (ride for the Paladin Mount, and because it also proved useful last week with a regular horse when the party's caravan was attacked near the gates of a city)

nyarlathotep

2011-02-23, 10:50 PM

Razgriez

2011-03-01, 08:33 AM

Not just simply the Supreme Cleave's ability, Nyarlahotep, I just meant that anything beyond Cleave, generally promotes the bad habit of rushing in and getting surrounded by a large force, in their quest to Cleave as many times as possible per round. (which you can't entirely blame a physical focused character for in a game filled with mobile artillery/heavy fire support in the form of the party mage. Sometimes, you want to be the standing on top of a pile of corpses, rather than stand back and watch the party mage reduce them to ash). But you do make good points and are correct about the other "Cleave" feats.

For me, aside from the points, I just never really have to deal with the "Unending Horde" scenario. So Cleave is kind of a "hit or miss" scenario with me. If I get it's bonus, yay, if I don't then it's a wasted Feat slot

Thank you so far, for the advice and suggestions everyone. But now I have a new question, purely related to RP. (So put most of the rule books down, hide the dice, and place your #2 pencils, paper, and calculators on your desks for a moment)

Part 2 of my question focuses on: "Paladin in RolePlay: How tolerant is too tolerant?" Allow me to explain.

Paladin falls under one of the class types, that I call "Honor-bound" or "Honor Classes". Their the ones that have restrictions like "Must be lawful" or "Must follow this code of honor and conduct". Things like the Monk class, or Samurai (Oriental Adventures- AkA the "Fighter with self enchanting masterwork weapons at Level 1, who will face you in an Honorable Dual, then Surprise attack you by drawing a sword extremely fast"), or the Knight class (PHBII).

Each of these Honor-bound have unique restrictions. In Paladin's case this boils down to "Give fair judgement, Give mercy when it is deserved, Provide aid to those in need. Don't use poisoned weapons or straight poison. And oh yea.... Kill evil where it show's it's ugly head.

But here's a question: How Tolerant should a Paladin be?

The thought came to me, after last week's game where a party member seemed to intentionally try and annoy all the divine casters in the group and re-reading some of the older OOTS comics involving Miko.

Before anyone panics, yes there is no denying that Miko rightfully deserved her loss in powers and whatever fate awaited her in the afterlife (as I'm sure was discussed when it was recent in the series, Granted in my view, she was bound by two codes of honor, her Paladin code, and that of a Samurai's to her lord, which she violated both of them) But it got me thinking. When does a Paladin, need to tell the other players "STOP! You're about to violate my codes. I will not assist you, further more, I am also bound by honor to stop you."

The issue came up in last weeks game, when a party member, a Bard, to make outrageous statements, aimed at the primary Divine holy order. Such as telling a King that he, and the citizenry gives too much respect to those of this holy order, than we really deserve (I countered that we were merely humble servants of the Divine, and seek only to provide aid, comfort, and hope to the people. If the people look at us as saviors of sorts, then what right does anyone have to take that bit of hope away from them). Latter on, she also made claims that the gods and spirits of the world Either don't care about the people, or don't exist...

So this begs the question what to do? If another character treats themselves higher than even Kings or gods, and my character is supposed to view them selves as lower than kings or gods, and holds the good ones in great respect, then how long do I try to even bother with the whole "Repent and Convert! Join the church! Fight for the powers of good! Jesus Saves... the rest take full damage!" (Sorry, couldn't resist for that last one:smallwink:)

Do I just verbally scorn the bard? Do I tell the Bard then to just simply "go find a bar and get drunk, our mission it too important to have someone who only seeks to bring despair and darkness to the people to risk the mission"..

Or/When do I just go like Lodge from the movie "Gamers 2" and have a "THAT'S IT! I smite thee!" moment.

Sillycomic

2011-03-01, 09:10 AM

I would say it depends on your character. There are honor bound people who love and embrace their religion that don't go on tirades the moment anyone has criticisms about god or whatever king is in place at the moment.

Here are some options:

1. Be helpful. Tell your bard why you think his opinion is wrong. You don't yell or disrespect his opinion, simply share your stories of courage and strength you have found through your deity and perhaps even share why you chose to be a patron of such causes in the first place.

2. Admit that he has some good points. There are times when villages are ransacked by monsters and natural catastrophes kill hundreds for no real reason. It's hard to say there are good and decent gods watching over us if these things happen. These are some good philosophical points to bring up.

3. Berate! You are following a lawful good god and everyone else needs to acknowledge this and also respect your religion! Of course, this bard seems to have his own religion which is that he doesn't believe the gods even exist. However, he is clearly wrong and you should spend hours and hours explaining to him why you are right no matter what!

4. No reason to bring it up at all. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. You're strong and confident enough in your religion to following it with faith and devotion. One bard making one off-hand comment is really going to change that? He's had a world of experiences differing from yours. Perhaps he's in a confused place right now. Wait for him to come around. Usually when a person seeks answers out the gods will be waiting to help them. There's no reason to pound religious faith into someone that isn't willing to listen. Be patient and when he comes looking for answers have them ready for him.

5. Tell him you simply don't believe what he says. Why? You don't know. You are a paladin, you have no idea why the gods do what they do. It's ridiculous to even guess what they might have in store for people. You feel confidence and comfort in your faith and that is enough for you. It guides you to do what you think is right. Something must be guiding the bard too if he is ultimately helping the king and his fellow person. The gods don't need the bard to believe in them if he is still doing right. Perhaps he's playing in their plan without having to believe in them?

6. Take it as a personal challenge. Think about it. Your god sent you on this mission... as well as this disagreeable bard. Why did he send both of you on this same mission? Because he wants you to learn something! But what? Well, that's what you need to figure out. Instead of telling the bard what he should be thinking, ask him what he is thinking. Talk to him, find out more about him. Gods test their followers all the time. This is your test... you better pass!

These are just several suggestions. There are different levels of playing even lawful good honor bound classes. I would say you should play your character.

And, unless the bard's offhand comments turn into actions (hurting clerics because they are following gods that don't exist or trying to overthrow the king because he isn't doing his job properly) then you shouldn't have much to worry about.

Firechanter

2011-03-01, 02:02 PM

Make use of the stuff that got nerfed in 3.5. For instance, Haste in 3.0 was golden, in 3.5 it pretty much sucks.

But most of all, look into the Divine Might and Divine Shield feats from Defenders of the Faith. These are _Awesome_, with a capital "A". (esp. Divine Might got crippled and nerfed beyond recognition in 3.5, which is a good indication that it's really fantastic in 3.0).

Divine Might has Power Attack as Prereq. DS has Power Attack and Improved Shield Bash as prereq.
Never take Great Cleave. It may be fun and somewhat useful in the very low levels, but later it will hardly ever trigger, making it a wasted slot.

So in short, take these feats:
Power Attack
Improved Shield Bash
Divine Might
Divine Shield
Extra Turning (so you can use DM and DS more often)

That should keep you busy for a while. Well, level 9.

Since you have to take PA anyway, you might also take Cleave (unless you know that your DM doesn't use encounters where you can use it). Apart from its role as Prereq, Power Attack is pretty much useless in 3.0 except against choice targets.

BTW, concerning the alignment thing: I used to hate LGs in general and Paladins in particular. That all changed when I understood this alignment better. Now it's one of my favourite alignments to play; in fact I think the slight majority of characters I have played in D&D games were LG. Only one of them was a Paladin, btw.
(Nevertheless, currently I'm playin a True Neutral Warblade because I felt I needed a change from "honour and duty".)

Gnaeus

2011-03-01, 02:07 PM

Make use of the stuff that got nerfed in 3.5. For instance, Haste in 3.0 was golden, in 3.5 it pretty much sucks.

No. Not really. It is still one of the best level 3 spells, and that says a lot.

Callista

2011-03-01, 05:36 PM

Wow... uh, how does it suck? You're giving everybody an extra attack; plus, they're bouncing around the battlefield like jackrabbits on speed! How is that anywhere near "suck"?

Haste is generally the first thing my spellcasters will do during lower-level battles. (And during higher level battles, the party can cast it on themselves from the items I've crafted for them.)

hawkingbird

2011-03-01, 06:27 PM

Haste in 3.5 gives you an extra partial action which you can use for an additional attack or move. In 3.0 it gives you an extra partial action, period. This means extra spells per round, so it's not hard to see why the nerf was made. As a fighting type class, it makes no difference to you really.

on-topic:
I am currently playing a level 5 evil-paladin with the following scores:
STR 16, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 17
Gonna bump CHA up one more at 8, then don't know about the rest coz I don't think the game will last that long.
I'm going for more of a save build rather than a damage dealing role (our 'lame vampire' fighter has that covered). However my cleric always gives me a Bull's Strength before combat which is handy and means that I rarely miss (esp with Divine Favour and Prayer buffs).
Planning on taking levels in Divine Champion which gives another smite, better saves, and some bonus feats (we're using the NWN Divine Champion since we don't have a Forgotten Realms book)

If I were to play a good paladin, I'd probably be building it the same. Probably not the best build ever, but it works nicely

nyarlathotep

2011-03-01, 06:29 PM

Firechanter

2011-03-01, 06:38 PM

All of the above, and in 3.0 Haste gave you a nice juice +4 AC bonus, and now it's a measly +1.

Gnaeus

2011-03-02, 09:35 AM

Yeah, Polymorph used to last 1 hour per level in 3.0. I guess it sucks now also.

Not as broken as it was last year /= suck by any definition. Is haste less awesome than in 3.0? Unquestionably. Is it still a leading contender for memorization or for a sorcerer's level 3 spells known? Certainly.

hamishspence

2011-03-02, 09:35 AM

3.0 paladins have a harsher restriction on Evil acts (the Atonement spell explicitly states that they can only regain paladin abilities, if the evil act was "unwilling" or "unwitting"- if it was neither of these, but intentional, they can never regain their powers.

Callista

2011-03-02, 11:10 AM

Well, I can see why they changed that; it doesn't make that much sense that there'd be no way back for willing evil deeds. While LN deities might have a "one strike and you're out" policy, LG and NG ones tend to be much more interested in redemption; and the LG-aligned outer planes also tend to emphasize Good enough to allow for it. Of course, since they're also Law-aligned, the pally in question has to make up for his evil deed--and if it was evil enough that might include everything up to and including willingly submitting to the death penalty--but Atonement should always be available. Redemption is so closely tied to the idea of Good that I'm really surprised they ever had it that way at all.

Get your DM to house-rule it, if you can. Otherwise, you'll eventually end up in a situation where your character would logically do something evil, and have to choose between metagaming and acting out of character or else losing access to class abilities permanently. Not exactly a fun choice. Temporary loss of powers and Atonement is a much better solution.