[3.5] Build Challenge: the Satellite

[tuesdayscoming]

A quirky idea just popped into my head, and Id love to try and stat it up (always nice to have something to think about at work).

The idea is basically this: a ranged attacker of some sort (whether mundane or magical) that flies at extraordinarily high altitudes and rains down destruction with pinpoint accuracy. I've never built anything close to this, so I would appreciate any help you can give!

There are gonna be some major issues to work out here, including the following:
• Lack of oxygen at high altitudes. The obvious solution, of course, is eliminating the need to breathe. Becoming undead would be one fix.
• Dealing with extreme cold. I wanna be up high. REAL high. It might get a bit nippy up there, so bringing along a really nice survival blanket would be good. That or, you know, immunity to cold.
• An accurate, reliable targeting system. This might be accomplishable by sharing the senses of an ally on the ground. I'm not perfectly sure if this would work (or how to pull it off) but it's one possibility. We would still have to cover for the massive range penalties, though.
• Finding a massively destructive weapon (using the term 'weapon' loosely). Ideally this weapon would be renewable (ie no dropping boulders); could pinpoint either a single target or an area, as desired; would be capable of overcoming DR, SR, etc.; and would be able to pierce cover (thereby allowing us to target even indoor creatures.
• Acquiring a fast, reliable form of flight. We want tobe able to keepup with our earthbound targets, and we certainly DO NOT want to ever have our flight disabled. Perhaps multiple sources of flight are called for (magical, mundane, and some sort of contingency such as non-magical feather fall?)

These are the issues that spring to mind at the moment. I also recall reading about altitude sickness somewhere, but I'm AFB right now and don't recAll the source or the penalties.

Anyone have any ideas to cover some of these points? Depending on interest, Ill update the post as we go and (hopefully) will put up a completed build for critique some time in the future.

edit – Possible solutions I'm currently working on (or would like to find solutions for):
Half Minotaur Half Ogre Dragonwrought Arctic Kobold: Technically qualifies for the Distant Shot epic feat at level 17, allowing us to throw/shoot at anything we can see, without penalties. Put a Hulking Hurler build (with or without cheese; the half-x templates are for size increases and strength bumps to get the little guy into his prc) on top of this and we've got a viable damage source and targeting system, no doubt. Still needs a way to endure being up so freakin' high, a way to get up there, and a source of high speed flight. Also, he'd need some way to 'see' his targets. Divination magic ala Chain of Eyes, scrying, what have you.
A Magic Missile Battery: Force Missile Mage and whatever other tricks we can come up with to optimize the spell. The real problem with this option, though, is the limited range of the spell. If we can find a way to cast it at targets over an extreme distance, this might be viable, though I'm drawing a complete blank...
A Dragonfire Adept with Metabreath feats. Not quite sure how viable this one is, yet, but it's a proposed solution that's been echoed a couple of times in the thread now.

[druid91]

Well, one solution is the flying fortress of doom.

Use the stronghold builders guide to stat up a ridiculously high speed flying fortress, then get some sort of weapon to fire. Personally? I'd recommend bombards for the awesome sauce.

Add on airtight, and elemental immunity, and theoretically if the world works that way you could exit the atmosphere.

Then you gear up, Endure elements traps and masks of sweet air for all fire deck personnel.

Then have a scrying pool, and simply try to hit a square.

With great bombards, that'll do a lot of damage.

[Doc Roc]

I often use Ring Gates for deploying Far Support.

Worth reading, should contain some hilariously long-ranged options. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866186/The_Ultimate_Archer_Handbook)

[tuesdayscoming]

Thank you both!

Doc, there's some gold there. Particularly the link about faster-than-the-speed-of-sound archery. Great ideas to work with.

druid91, great idea, too! I'm really looking to create a character capable of pulling these sky-high shenanigans, tho. But of course he will need a floating fortress to return to after a long day at 'the office'. :smallbiggrin:

[gbprime]

I often use Ring Gates for deploying Far Support.

I suddenly have a mental image of a battle standard with a cannon barrel sticking out of it, firing on opposing units...

[Doc Roc]

I suddenly have a mental image of a battle standard with a cannon barrel sticking out of it, firing on opposing units...

I often put it in the center of a golem's chest, but you have the right idea.

[TheGeckoKing]

I'd go with a Warforged Caster using a Quicken Metamagic Rod, Apocalypse From the Sky, and a Talisman of the Undying to get around the auto-kill ability damage. But, yaknow, that's just my 2p.

[Doc Roc]

I'd go with a Warforged Caster using a Quicken Metamagic Rod, Apocalypse From the Sky, and a Talisman of the Undying to get around the auto-kill ability damage. But, yaknow, that's just my 2p.

Yeah, you only need one artifact a shot. You know, the artifact no one is ever going to give you. Though you might be able to use dweomerkeeper..... hm.

[TheGeckoKing]

The artifact isn't priced in the spell. Use Eschew Materials.

[Doc Roc]

The artifact isn't priced in the spell. Use Eschew Materials.

It's a valuable component, you'd probably be safest using Dweomerkeeper. Which is stupidly powerful and good anyway.

[Asheram]

With the risk of putting a few catgirls over the choppingblock.

1. The ship/creature would have to fly very fast indeed.
2. Bombards would take too long to reach the surface. You need something that's instantaneous like magic.

[Doc Roc]

With the risk of putting a few catgirls over the choppingblock.

1. The ship/creature would have to fly very fast indeed.
2. Bombards would take too long to reach the surface. You need something that's instantaneous like magic.

Arrows don't appear to have a travel time.

[Chess435]

The artifact isn't priced in the spell. Use Eschew Materials.

*Throws DMG*

[Doc Roc]

*Throws DMG*

:: Calls DMG to hand :: I believe this is mine.

[Asheram]

Arrows don't appear to have a travel time.

Killing catgirls, as I said. :P

Oh, and that reminds me. Range increments. It would be an Insane AC to hit

[Doc Roc]

Killing catgirls, as I said. :P

Oh, and that reminds me. Range increments. It would be an Insane AC to hit

Trivial to obviate. You are in my domain, now.

[Asheram]

Trivial to obviate. You are in my domain, now.

RAW is LAW I suppose.

But I still stick to that magic would be a better alternative, atleast when we move into the epic category.

[Doc Roc]

RAW is LAW I suppose.

But I still stick to that magic would be a better alternative, atleast when we move into the epic category.

I'm actually a Maganbrecan, which is a class of inevitable charged with punishing unbroken games. ;)

[TheGeckoKing]

Well, Eschew Materials or Southern Magician + Dweomerkeeper + Necropolitan, we can still have a Warforged/Zombie that can shoot The Apocalypse from it's fingers from SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE!

I like that.

[Doc Roc]

I'm calling this project Operation: Ion Canon.

[SIC]

[CycloneJoker]

Be an Air Grey Elf (Also means you don't need to breath) Wizard, get Portable Hole, or a huge bag of holding, maybe, fill it with molten lead, teleport REALLY high above you're target, and let loose. I think it has, IIRC, about 14 kilotons, though I'm not sure. Accuracy doesn't matter anymore.

[Chess435]

I'm calling this project Operation: Ion Canon.

[SIC]

Which leads us to our next issue: How do we get the beacon in the Hand of Nod without getting lasered to death? :smallbiggrin:

[tuesdayscoming]

Alright, I think I have workable concepts for taking care the range, accuracy, and cover problems. I'll work it out and post a bit later on.

[Tacitus]

I suddenly have a mental image of a battle standard with a cannon barrel sticking out of it, firing on opposing units...

Really? Cause I read that and got a cutscene for Mechanus Cannon.

[JaronK]

I worked out a character like this a while ago, a Cleric/PrC Ranger that used Persistent Guided Shot to avoid all distance penalties, Chain of Eyes to spot targets (with a spotter), and some persistent spell that gave flight to hover far away in the clouds. Then he used his really big Greatbow to fire from well over a mile away... a Brilliant Energy Greatbow means he can even fire through walls and earth.

If you want obscene ranges, consider using a trick to get epic feats (like Dragonwrought Kobold tricks) and get Distant Shot, which lets you fire at any target you can see regardless of range. Then hang out in a mobile fortress and rain down destruction.

JaronK

[Asheram]

Which leads us to our next issue: How do we get the beacon in the Hand of Nod without getting lasered to death? :smallbiggrin:

Modron rush, I'd say. ;)

Oh.. that would be lovely... an orbital cannon that's staffed with Modrons...

[Bayar]

Which leads us to our next issue: How do we get the beacon in the Hand of Nod without getting lasered to death? :smallbiggrin:

You kill the artificers that are protecting the Dragonshard control system in the manaforge arcano-generator power plant.

The laser turrets and Obelisk of Light are now offline.

[Dalek-K]

What is the most mundane way to make this character though? I usually don't get access to tons of books.

Also would a Warlock be of any help to this build?

The Cleric/Ranger build seems pretty neat, maybe some sort of Warlock/Cleric build?

[Jack_Simth]

A Psion is a fairly straightforward way to do this, thanks to the Psicrystal's Channel Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm#channelPower) ability at 15th. Especially if you go with the FAQ's 'you wake up with a new crystal the next day' bit for what happens when it gets destroyed. Add a way to see the area around the psicrystal (Such as, say, a third eye sense), and you're set to stay back in camp and blast things in the dungeon.

[tuesdayscoming]

If you want obscene ranges, consider using a trick to get epic feats (like Dragonwrought Kobold tricks) and get Distant Shot, which lets you fire at any target you can see regardless of range. Then hang out in a mobile fortress and rain down destruction.

JaronK

I wasn't aware that there was a way to get epic feats pre-epic. Could anyone explain the process in brief? Or direct me to a link?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Dragons got a special clause that lets them get epic feats at certain age categories (I want to say old, but I am not sure, Great Wyrm is a given though); and in Races of the Dragon WotC printed the feat dragonwrought which gets Kobolds Dragon typing and gives them age categories.

Therefore a Great Wyrm Dragonwrought Kobold gets to select epic feats WAY before epic kicks in (level 1 the earliest with Flaws or a fighter (to select epic fighter bonus feats) though you would still need to have the pre-requisites.

[Doc Roc]

Bears mention that there's a great deal of debate regarding it. We tend, as a result, to not discuss it very often.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Bears mention that there's a great deal of debate regarding it. We tend, as a result, to not discuss it very often.

Right, forgot to mention that.

[Triaxx]

Hmm... how about Warforged (No breathing), some sort of Ice elemental template (cold protection), shaped like a spell weaver (six spells a round), with the Magic Missile Mage PrC from Dragon Magazine?

Quickened scrying, or using a familar to spot, and you've got an orbital Magical Macross Missile Massacre.

(Beware, old-school dice roller DM's may attempt counter battery fire, or power attacks with the DMG for this technique.) :smallbiggrin:

[Havelock]

You also need to factor in the 20d6 damage from vacum pressure (or rather, lack of it). But there's ways around that, warforged probably can pull it off. A magical spacesuit shouldn't be too hard to build. Shapechange will do this. Pretty sure that there is a form that allows good flight speed that is not reliant on wings (because wings require air) and also wouldn't be affected by extreme pressure.

Shadowcraft mage with shadow major creation (cast as standard action) to create big 100% real projectiles of whatever, you don't really need to be accurate to kill something with 10 tonnes dropped from orbit, you just need to hit the general area.

[Chess435]

Hmm... how about Warforged (No breathing), some sort of Ice elemental template (cold protection), shaped like a spell weaver (six spells a round), with the Magic Missile Mage PrC from Dragon Magazine?

Quickened scrying, or using a familar to spot, and you've got an orbital Magical Macross Missile Massacre.

(Beware, old-school dice roller DM's may attempt counter battery fire, or power attacks with the DMG for this technique.) :smallbiggrin:

*tosses a cookie* I vote for this one!

One problem, though: Isn't magic missile only medium range?

[Dalek-K]

You also need to factor in the 20d6 damage from vacum pressure (or rather, lack of it). But there's ways around that, warforged probably can pull it off. A magical spacesuit shouldn't be too hard to build. Shapechange will do this. Pretty sure that there is a form that allows good flight speed that is not reliant on wings (because wings require air) and also wouldn't be affected by extreme pressure.

Shadowcraft mage with shadow major creation (cast as standard action) to create big 100% real projectiles of whatever, you don't really need to be accurate to kill something with 10 tonnes dropped from orbit, you just need to hit the general area.

Ok seriously if I ever tried that I'm sure my DM would throw something horrible at me... like Space Tarrasque that lives in the sun :smalleek:.... or something like that...

[Tyndmyr]

• Lack of oxygen at high altitudes. The obvious solution, of course, is eliminating the need to breathe. Becoming undead would be one fix.

I think by RAW, the only point this comes up is with frostburn w regards to altitude. There's a feat in it that basically fixes all issues with it. No worries.


• Dealing with extreme cold. I wanna be up high. REAL high. It might get a bit nippy up there, so bringing along a really nice survival blanket would be good. That or, you know, immunity to cold.

Well, protection from elements should suffice. That's easy enough. If you're really worried about it, add a half dragon template of one of the cold immune colors.


• An accurate, reliable targetting system. This might be accomplishable by sharing the senses of an ally on the ground. I'm not perfectly sure if this would work (or how to pull it off) but it's one possibility. We would still have to cover for the massive range penalties, though.

Done and Done (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#distantShot). If you have LOS to it, you can hit it. Note that since this only requires 20 ranks of spot, it can theoretically be taken by a dragonwrought kobold at level 17 without need for psychic reformation shenanigans.


• Finding a massively destructive weapon (using the term 'weapon' loosely). Ideally this weapon would be renewable (ie no dropping boulders); could pinpoint either a single target or an area, as desired; would be capable of overcoming DR, SR, etc.; and would be able to pierce cover (thereby allowing us to target even indoor creatures.

See also, Hulking Hurler and war hulk.


• Acquiring a fast, reliable form of flight. We want tobe able to keepup with our earthbound targets, and we certainly DO NOT want to ever have our flight disabled. Perhaps multiple sources of flight are called for (magical, mundane, and some sort of contingency such as non-magical feather fall?)

Fly spell. There's legitimately dozens of ways to get flight, magical or non magical. If you are in the upper atmosphere, fall to the ground is relatively unlikely, and thus, unimportant. In any case, fall damage is capped anyhow.

I haven't read any responses yet, but I imagine many of these have already been covered. At any rate, it doesn't strike me as particularly hard. More interestingly, using these principles, you could target the surface of other planets with LOS to yours. Given that a ranged attack only takes a fraction of a round to resolve, you should be able to arrange interstellar FTL transportation and communication.

[Chess435]

More interestingly, using these principles, you could target the surface of other planets with LOS to yours. Given that a ranged attack only takes a fraction of a round to resolve, you should be able to arrange interstellar FTL transportation and communication.

1. Polymorph Any Object passenger to arrow.
2. Go to upper atmosphere.
3. Aim at target planet.
4. Hope to god you don't roll a natural 1.
5. ???????
6. Profit!

[Tyndmyr]

1. Polymorph Any Object passenger to arrow.
2. Go to upper atmosphere.
3. Aim at target planet.
4. Hope to god you don't roll a natural 1.
5. ???????
6. Profit!

Nah. Hulking hurler grants "Really Throw Anything" as a class ability. You can use people as throwing weapons. You merely need to aim at something less than a pound in their atmosphere. Like a bird. Then, impacting with it will by RAW not result in falling damage. Well, not to them. The bird is pretty hosed.

They can then activate the flying or floating method of their choice for landing purposes. Feather fall strikes me as rather easily accessible.

Natural 1's are unfortunate, but with luck feat(s), your orbital interstellar launch system can reroll attacks, allowing you a mere 1/400 odds of being hurled into space at random. If that isn't sufficiently safe for you, a properly worded contingency will be.

Naturally, the first people you throw will be other people with this build, allowing for very rapid interstellar travel.

[Havelock]

Ok seriously if I ever tried that I'm sure my DM would throw something horrible at me... like Space Tarrasque that lives in the sun :smalleek:.... or something like that...

You'd have to deal with scry and die tactics from the followers of pretty much every God that is offended by your indiscrimant slaughtering of their worshippers if I were your GM.

But you have access to 8th level spells, so you have mind blank, right? So they'll need to use actual physical agents to track you down. Or find a 17th level Seer(Psion) with metafaculty and XP to burn.

New campaign: The whole world wants you dead.

[Tyndmyr]

So attach a rope from you to an item, and throw the item to another world. Screw this world, find a new one. Continue until you find a campaign world you like.

I strongly suggest ensuring the GM has no books handy before beginning.

[tuesdayscoming]

My word, some excellent suggestions here, guys! Keep 'em comin'!

The magic missile suggestion could be cool, but as stated above the problem would be the limited range. Shooting MMs from orbit seems to be straight out, but Id imagine there might be a way around it...

I had really wanted to steer clear of epic feat cheese initially, but the more I think about it the more I like the idea of the dragonwrought kobold WarHulking Hurler. The imagery it evokes is just absolutely fantastic! And really, as soon as you hit level 21 all pre-epic options that we might have invested in to get crazy awsome mundane range are rendered useless and wasteful. I'll have to ponder this one... I guess this concept does call for some cheddar no matter how you spin it.

Does anyone know offhand precisely what the maximum damage potential for a W.H.Hurler actually is?

Also, if we did give the Dragonwrought Kobold the Distant Shot (or whtever it's called) feat at 17 and then pulled some shenanigans to turn him into a Warforged, what precisely would be the repercussions? Would he lose the feat, for instance?

edit: also, Im really nit concerned with ossinle DM reactions as it is HUGELY UNLIKELY that I would ever get to use the finished product in a real game. Ideas for averting the inevitable attempts at Divine Intervention, however, are very much welcomed.

[Havelock]

Averting divine intervention? Kill the Gods. Or just kill whatever they throw at you (which may include Aleaxes).

Easier perhaps is to ally with a God that doesn't mind you pulling off such stunts so that direct divine intervention from others will be countered by his intervention, and they hold back in fear of escalation.

[Tyndmyr]

Does anyone know offhand precisely what the maximum damage potential for a W.H.Hurler actually is?

Precisely? No. I do recall that scientific notation was required, because the actual numbers were ludicrously large. Feel free to shatter the moon or whatever before you head off on your galaxy spanning adventure.


Also, if we did give the Dragonwrought Kobold the Distant Shot (or whtever it's called) feat at 17 and then pulled some shenanigans to turn him into a Warforged, what precisely would be the repercussions? Would he lose the feat, for instance?

Well, you could add the construct template without any problems, I believe. I don't see that as an issue if you wanted to enjoy living in space.

I'd probably drop my level 6 feat on leadership to get an artificer buddy, honestly. Being a war hulk, you aren't gonna be good at certain things yourself, and he can cover the bases for you.

[Doc Roc]

Averting divine intervention? Kill the Gods. Or just kill whatever they throw at you (which may include Aleaxes).

Easier perhaps is to ally with a God that doesn't mind you pulling off such stunts so that direct divine intervention from others will be countered by his intervention, and they hold back in fear of escalation.

Unfortunately, Action Economy and SDAs make this a LOT harder than you might imagine.

[tuesdayscoming]

Well, you could add the construct template without any problems, I believe. I don't see that as an issue if you wanted to enjoy living in space.

Any chance you could provide the source?

edit: after doing a bit of searching, the only template I can find that turns you into a construct is Dustform, weighing in at +2LA. Doable, but shenanigan'ing into Warforged might still be preferable, provided it lets us keep the epic feat.

[gomipile]

I worked out a character like this a while ago, a Cleric/PrC Ranger that used Persistent Guided Shot to avoid all distance penalties, Chain of Eyes to spot targets (with a spotter), and some persistent spell that gave flight to hover far away in the clouds. Then he used his really big Greatbow to fire from well over a mile away... a Brilliant Energy Greatbow means he can even fire through walls and earth.

If you want obscene ranges, consider using a trick to get epic feats (like Dragonwrought Kobold tricks) and get Distant Shot, which lets you fire at any target you can see regardless of range. Then hang out in a mobile fortress and rain down destruction.

JaronK

DW kobold with Distant Shot was my first thought as well.

[Bayar]

Does anyone know offhand precisely what the maximum damage potential for a W.H.Hurler actually is?

It depends on your carry capacity. Here is a handy table with examples, courtesy of /tg/ :

carry capacities for medium creatures

35 = 1.6 tons
45 = 6.4 tons
55 = 25.6 tons
65 = 102.4 tons
75 = 409.6 tons
85 = 1,638.4 tons
95 = 6,553.6 tons
105 = 26,214.4 tons
115 = 104,857.6 tons
125 = 419,430.4 tons
135 = 1,677,721.6 tons
145 = 6,710,886.4 tons
155 = 26,843,545.6 tons
165 = 107,374,182.4 tons
175 = 429,496,729.6 tons
185 = 1,717,986,918.4 tons
195 = 6,871,947,673.6 tons
205 = 27,487,790,694.4 tons
215 = 109,951,162,777.6 tons
225 = 439,804,651,110.4 tons
235 = 1,759,218,604,441.6 tons
245 = 7,036,874,417,766.4 tons
255 = 28,147,497,671,065.6 tons
265 = 112,589,990,684,262.4 tons
275 = 450,359,962,737,049.6 tons
285 = 1,801,439,850,948,198.4 tons
295 = 7,205,759,403,792,793.6 tons
305 = 28,823,037,615,171,174.4 tons
315 = 115,292,150,460,684,697.6 tons
325 = 461,168,601,842,738,790.4 tons
335 = 1,844,674,407,370,955,161.6 tons
345 = 7,378,697,629,483,820,646.4 tons
355 = 29,514,790,517,935,282,585.6 tons
365 = 118,059,162,071,741,130,342.4 tons
375 = 472,236,648,286,964,521,369.6 tons
385 = 1,888,946,593,147,858,085,478.4 tons
395 = 7,555,786,372,591,432,341,913.6 tons
405 = 30,223,145,490,365,729,367,654.4 tons
415 = 120,892,581,961,462,917,470,617.6 tons
425 = 483,570,327,845,851,669,882,470.4 tons
435 = 1,934,281,311,383,406,679,529,881.6 tons
445 = 7,737,125,245,533,626,718,119,526.4 tons
455 = 30,948,500,982,134,506,872,478,105.6 tons
465 = 123,794,003,928,538,027,489,912,422.4 tons
475 = 495,176,015,714,152,109,959,649,689.6 tons
485 = 1,980,704,062,856,608,439,838,598,758.4 tons
495 = 7,922,816,251,426,433,759,354,395,033.6 tons
505 = 31,691,265,005,705,735,037,417,580,134.4 tons
515 = 126,765,060,022,822,940,149,670,320,537.6 tons
525 = 507,060,240,091,291,760,598,681,282,150.4 tons
535 = 2,028,240,960,365,167,042,394,725,128,601.6 tons
545 = 8,112,963,841,460,668,169,578,900,514,406.4 tons
555 = 3.2451855365842672678315602057626E31 tons
565 = 1.2980742146337069071326240823050E32 tons
575 = 5.1922968585348276285304963292201E32 tons
585 = 2.0769187434139310514121985316880E33 tons
595 = 8.3076749736557242056487941267522E33 tons
605 = 3.3230699894622896822595176507007E34 tons
615 = 1.3292279957849158729038070602803E35 tons
625 = 5.3169119831396634916152282411211E35 tons
635 = 2.1267647932558653966460912964484E36 tons
645 = 8.5070591730234615865843651857938E36 tons
655 = 3.4028236692093846346337460743175E37 tons
665 = 1.3611294676837538538534984297270E38 tons
675 = 5.4445178707350154154139937189080E38 tons
685 = 2.1778071482940061661655974875632E39 tons
695 = 8.7112285931760246646623899502528E39 tons
715 = 1.3937965749081639463459823920405E41 tons
725 = 5.5751862996326557853839295681618E41 tons
735 = 2.2300745198530623141535718272647E42 tons
745 = 8.9202980794122492566142873090589E42 tons
755 = 3.5681192317648997026457149236236E43 tons
765 = 1.4272476927059598810582859694494E44 tons
775 = 5.7089907708238395242331438777977E44 tons
785 = 2.2835963083295358096932575511191E45 tons
795 = 9.1343852333181432387730302044763E45 tons
805 = 3.6537540933272572955092120817905E46 tons
815 = 1.4615016373309029182036848327162E47 tons
825 = 5.8460065493236116728147393308648E47 tons
835 = 2.3384026197294446691258957323459E48 tons
845 = 9.3536104789177786765035829293838E48 tons
855 = 3.7414441915671114706014331717535E49 tons
865 = 1.4965776766268445882405732687014E50 tons
875 = 5.9863107065073783529622930748056E50 tons
885 = 2.3945242826029513411849172299222E51 tons
895 = 9.5780971304118053647396689196890E51 tons
905 = 3.8312388521647221458958675678756E52 tons

Mount Everest = 2.909836E13 tons ::: STR 256 = maximum carrying capacity of 32,369,622,321,725.44 tons

Earth's Moon = 8.099453E19 tons ::: STR 363 = maximum carrying capacity of 88,544,371,553,805,847,756.8 tons

Earth = 6.584767E21 tons ::: STR 395 = maximum carrying capacity of 7,555,786,372,591,432,341,913.6 tons

Jupiter = 2.092848E23 tons ::: STR 436 = maximum carrying capacity of 2,224,423,508,090,917,681,459,363.84 tons

The Sun = 2.191874E27 tons ::: STR 486 = maximum carrying capacity of 2,277,809,672,285,099,705,814,388,572.16 tons

Betelguese = 3.069650E28 tons ::: STR 505 = maximum carrying capacity of 31,691,265,005,705,735,037,417,580,134.4 tons

Supermassive Black Hole = 8.112647E33 tons ::: STR 595 = maximum carrying capacity of 8.3076749736557242056487941267522E33 tons

Average Globular Cluster = 1.102311E35 tons ::: STR 614 = maximum carrying capacity of 1.1630744963118013887908311777453E35 tons

Milky Way Galaxy = 2.204623E39 tons ::: STR 686 = maximum carrying capacity of 2.5044782205381070910904371106978E39 tons

Virgo Supercluster = 2.204623E43 tons ::: STR 752 = maximum carrying capacity of 2.3192775006471848067197147003554E43 tons

Observable Universe = 3.306934E49 tons ::: STR 855 = maximum carrying capacity of 3.7414441915671114706014331717535E49 tons

First number is the STR score, the second is the carry capacity it gives you. From this, you just need to calculate how many d6's of damage every value does.

Edit: and yes, with a STR score of 855 you would probably be able to pocket the universe...

[tuesdayscoming]

Craaaaap, just noticed a major problem with the Dragonwrought Kobold War Hulking Hurler suggestion. Distant Shot requires 20 ranks in Spot, but the War Hulk makes it so that you effectively have 0 ranks, thus disqualifying us from EVER taking the feat...

Can anyone think of a solution? Is there a way to, for instance, change Spot to a non-mental based skill? Is there an adequate substitute for the War Hulk class? I'm gonna guess no to both of these, but here's hoping!

[gomipile]

Craaaaap, just noticed a major problem with the Dragonwrought Kobold War Hulking Hurler suggestion. Distant Shot requires 20 ranks in Spot, but the War Hulk makes it so that you effectively have 0 ranks, thus disqualifying us from EVER taking the feat...

Can anyone think of a solution? Is there a way to, for instance, change Spot to a non-mental based skill? Is there an adequate substitute for the War Hulk class? I'm gonna guess no to both of these, but here's hoping!

Yep, Cancer Mage or Binder with the Festering Anger disease that makes you stronger every day.

[tuesdayscoming]

Yeah, I actually JUST saw this in another thread. Which vestige would help you out here, tho?

edit: On a side note, now that I'm starting to get a feel for the true horrifying potential of a hulking hurler, I'm starting to think that it might just be far too cheesy for my tastes. With Festering Anger, there's literally no limit to your characters strength, meaning there's no limit to what you can throw, meaning there's no limit to how much damage you can deal. Absurd.

[gomipile]

Yeah, I actually JUST saw this in another thread. Which vestige would help you out here, tho?

edit: On a side note, now that I'm starting to get a feel for the true horrifying potential of a hulking hurler, I'm starting to think that it might just be far too cheesy for my tastes. With Festering Anger, there's literally no limit to your characters strength, meaning there's no limit to what you can throw, meaning there's no limit to how much damage you can deal. Absurd.

I think its Naberius who lets you heal the ability damage. It only requires a 1 level dip.

[Dalek-K]

This may be a bit helpful if you go the hulking hurler way :P


http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873078/Hulking_Hurler_build?pg=1

[Tyndmyr]

Any chance you could provide the source?

edit: after doing a bit of searching, the only template I can find that turns you into a construct is Dustform, weighing in at +2LA. Doable, but shenanigan'ing into Warforged might still be preferable, provided it lets us keep the epic feat.

You can get it in other ways...such as GSA. I'll grant you that it's probably undesirable to do so, though the idea of stacking more str atop the war hulk benefits is amusing. I suppose that escalating the already earth-shattering damage numbers is mostly unimportant, though. Using it instead of war hulk is a possibility, I suppose, to resolve the conflict with the ranks. It doesn't progress strength as rapidly, but it's oddly useful in this situation.

War hulk really only is a part of the build for the purposes of getting stupid strength, and thus carrying capacity, and thus damage, so it's not critical.

PaO would simply turn you into a warforged, and would not retain the previous creature types. So, useful, but limited.

[Triaxx]

Custom Dual-Purpose Spell for polymorphing plus ice immunity? Or would that have to be a ritual.

[Tyndmyr]

Well, by RAW, the ice immunity is unnecessary. I recall no actual rules for cold damage merely from flying high. Once you've taken care of the altitude effects, a simple protection from elements should be adequate to protect against any inclement weather encountered.

If you go into space, there's the breathing issue, but construct would solve that rather well, as would undead. Alternatively, you can just avoid spending significant time actually in space. Either way, that's no great obstacle.

No, the problem with polymorph is losing your dragon type. You need that for your epic feat.

[AtomicKitKat]

Natural Spell+Druid in Bird Wildshape+Born of the 3 Thunders. Done and done.:smallwink:

[tuesdayscoming]

Natural Spell+Druid in Bird Wildshape+Born of the 3 Thunders. Done and done.:smallwink:

We're not flying nearly high enough with this option, I'm afraid. And at the distances we're talking about, spell range becomes a very real problem.

[AtomicKitKat]

We're not flying nearly high enough with this option, I'm afraid. And at the distances we're talking about, spell range becomes a very real problem.

Aberrant Wildshape into a Mooncow? Control Weather is probably a good bet regardless of range then.

[Doc Roc]

How about this....
17th level psion, two Thought bottles.
Store XP, Store XP.
Summon and Sandwich trick a Lillend.
Get the 6 bard levels, as it's not qualified and thus is a natural ability.
Mind Seed your old body.
Load XP onto it.
Level drain yourself to two HD.
Maybe do some item creation here?
Become a necropolitan.
1 HD remaining.
But wait. We are sixth level casters still. And have full bardic music access.
As we have 1 HD, we will lose that HD when we gain a class level.
Load XP. Class levels gained don't need to be your old ones.
Level as desired.

You just killed a Lillend utterly, that's probably worth some XP.
Hell, you're going to genocide their entire race.
Reload thought bottles.
Your Mind-seeded self will unload one, pushing him back to your initial starting XP or close to it.
Enter orbit, while your other self repeats the process.
Depressingly, this is a pretty weak build.

Exact load-out of lillend orbital drones left as an exercise to the reader.
Exact shape of space station left as an exercise to the reader.
Taking Landlord on each copy of yourself is probably an okay plan.

I present you with the Serpentine Glorious.

Small pimp:
You can't do this in Legend.

[nyarlathotep]

You also need to factor in the 20d6 damage from vacum pressure (or rather, lack of it). But there's ways around that, warforged probably can pull it off. A magical spacesuit shouldn't be too hard to build. Shapechange will do this. Pretty sure that there is a form that allows good flight speed that is not reliant on wings (because wings require air) and also wouldn't be affected by extreme pressure.

Shadowcraft mage with shadow major creation (cast as standard action) to create big 100% real projectiles of whatever, you don't really need to be accurate to kill something with 10 tonnes dropped from orbit, you just need to hit the general area.

The vacuum isn't that dangerous. It just makes physics work very very strangely and lets any and all radiation from the stars to hit you directly. effectively you'd take minor damage (2d6 per round ballpark) plush a lot of status effect: blindness (your eyes boil), penalty to physical actions (your sense of balance is thrown off), and obviously you suffocate.

But I think we can all agree that a space suit or robot is easier.

[Doc Roc]

There are actually rules for it, in this spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/nailedToTheSky.htm). Getting a hold of the spell isn't terribly difficult, and you could probably use it to lift your initial seed-mechanism into orbit.

[tuesdayscoming]

Oooooh, that's a nifty spell, Doc! I'm really not well acquainted with the epic rules at all, I'm afraid, but I enjoyed that one.

It really doesn't put you all that high up, though: "Even if the target can fly, the surface is 2 to 4 hours away, assuming a fly spell, which allows a maximum speed of 720 feet per round while descending" Nevermind! See math, below.

Let's see... *rolls Knowledge: Middle School Math*... 3,600 seconds (600 rounds) in an hour. 720 ft/round * 600 rounds = 432,000 ft = 81.81 (repeating) miles traveled in a given hour... Wait, is this right? That seems WAY TOO FRICKIN' FAST for a simple fly spell.

Anyways, if I didn't fail my math check, and if getting back to the earth after this spell takes 2-4 hours, that means it sends its victim anywhere from 163.63 to 327.27 miles above the surface of the earth.

The atmosphere apparently ends (and 'space' subsequently begins) approximately 62 miles above earth's sea level (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A1rm%C3%A1n_line), so assuming an earth-like planet, this spell would put us WAY into space. Apparently the Hubble Telescope orbits at about 366 miles (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_far_is_Hubble_telescope_from_earth) if that helps put it in perspective.

Considering all this, I'm really quite surprised that the damage from the spell isn't more than it is...

Anyone wanna check my math?

[Doc Roc]

Did you note my build, as well? :)

I will say, I think Nailed To The Sky is probably the only piece of Epic Level material that I like which is first party.

[tuesdayscoming]

Did you note my build, as well? :)

I will say, I think Nailed To The Sky is probably the only piece of Epic Level material that I like which is first party.

I did note it, but I haven't had the time to work through it yet, I'm afraid. I'm not quite familiar enough with all of the elements you cite, but I'll comment on it when I get a chance!

[Triaxx]

Extend spell takes care of the argument that Magic Missile is only medium range, instead of long.

Motion to keep up in orbit would indeed require teleportation as a move action.

[Dusk Eclipse]

How about this....
17th level psion, two Thought bottles.
Store XP, Store XP.
Summon and Sandwich trick a Lillend.
Get the 6 bard levels, as it's not qualified and thus is a natural ability.
Mind Seed your old body.
Load XP onto it.
Level drain yourself to two HD.
Maybe do some item creation here?
Become a necropolitan.
1 HD remaining.
But wait. We are sixth level casters still. And have full bardic music access.
As we have 1 HD, we will lose that HD when we gain a class level.
Load XP. Class levels gained don't need to be your old ones.
Level as desired.

You just killed a Lillend utterly, that's probably worth some XP.
Hell, you're going to genocide their entire race.
Reload thought bottles.
Your Mind-seeded self will unload one, pushing him back to your initial starting XP or close to it.
Enter orbit, while your other self repeats the process.
Depressingly, this is a pretty weak build.

Exact load-out of lillend orbital drones left as an exercise to the reader.
Exact shape of space station left as an exercise to the reader.
Taking Landlord on each copy of yourself is probably an okay plan.

I present you with the Serpentine Glorious.

Small pimp:
You can't do this in Legend.

As much as I love your work Doc, I really don't understand how this works, care to enlighten me please?

[Tyndmyr]

Extend spell takes care of the argument that Magic Missile is only medium range, instead of long.

Motion to keep up in orbit would indeed require teleportation as a move action.

Long range is still disturbingly short. Using extend just to get there is probably not ideal.

Teleportation need not be a move action. Teleport covers a lot of distance.

[Doc Roc]

As much as I love your work Doc, I really don't understand how this works, care to enlighten me please?

I'll need to know what bits you are missing, first! :)
Or would you just like it unpacked a bit better in general?

[tuesdayscoming]

Long range is still disturbingly short. Using extend just to get there is probably not ideal.

Teleportation need not be a move action. Teleport covers a lot of distance.

Is there some way that we can cast magic missile through an unlimited range divination type spell? Or would there be a way to exploit Ring Gates here? Somehow unerringly teleporting a Ring Gate right above our target, unleashing a massive MM barrage, and then summoning the Ring Gate back to us?

I'm trying to work out targeting/damage systems before worrying about insulation/locomotion.


Or would you just like it unpacked a bit better in general?

I get the general gist, but how are our space lillends doing anything to targets on the ground?

edit: Also, I've added a couple of spoilers at the bottom of the OP, going over the possible solutions I'm trying to think through. They are brief, though

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'll need to know what bits you are missing, first! :)
Or would you just like it unpacked a bit better in general?

Just a general idea at the least please.

[Tyndmyr]

Is there some way that we can cast magic missile through an unlimited range divination type spell? Or would there be a way to exploit Ring Gates here? Somehow unerringly teleporting a Ring Gate right above our target, unleashing a massive MM barrage, and then summoning the Ring Gate back to us?

Well, there is a teleport item spell. And technically, you could use scrying and a drop for the first part. So, you could target from pretty much any height, provided the ring gate is facing the right way. This is fixable by duct taping(ahem, sovereign glue) two pairs of ring gates together in the appropriate configuration.


I'm trying to work out targeting/damage systems before worrying about insulation/locomotion.

I agree. Insulation/locomotion can be accomplished in a number of ways. They're the easier ingredients.

[Doc Roc]

Is there some way that we can cast magic missile through an unlimited range divination type spell? Or would there be a way to exploit Ring Gates here? Somehow unerringly teleporting a Ring Gate right above our target, unleashing a massive MM barrage, and then summoning the Ring Gate back to us?

I'm trying to work out targeting/damage systems before worrying about insulation/locomotion.



I get the general gist, but how are our space lillends doing anything to targets on the ground?

edit: Also, I've added a couple of spoilers at the bottom of the OP, going over the possible solutions I'm trying to think through. They are brief, though

They take landlord. All generation one and two Lillendalikes build their own replication stations. And blot out the sun. Then they start summoning and deorbiting large rocks. Alternatively, you can load them with Dweomerkeeper+Apocalypse In The Sky. Alternatively, you can just have millions of them cling to each other, form a ball, and use their psionics to defray the damage as they plunge to earth. Then just begin converting the residents of the surface in the same way.

The core trick is the same as the sandwich trick. The other gimmick is that basically, level restoration or XP regain just levels you back up. It doesn't actually say you get levels back in a number of the abilities. Thought Bottle is by far the most egregious of these, and we're deliberately misreading mind seed's intent such that we consider our seeded selves to be, well, briefly ourselves. The end result is that we can customize the class levels of each Lillend clone, and we have bardic music+bardic casting equivalent to Bard 6 at first level. This is pretty potent for PrC qualification, as we innately have an arcane caster level, and a rather high one at that. Specifically, we can get into Dweomerkeeper with just straight cleric levels, which I'm not sure has ever been done before in this way.

[Tyndmyr]

For the War Hulk, there's a dodgy possible interpretation.

The web based listing of it at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a does not include No Time To Think in the text. It has all the rest of the class. If you used that printing of the class, there is no problem. However, I suspect that the rulebook itself would be considered the primary source, not an online printing of it.

Alternatively, you can utilize HD shenanigans via dusk giant to qualify for the feat, then go take your levels in war hulk. That doesn't really cover how to use the feat afterward, though. I suppose you could reformation after taking war hulk, but then you have conflicting text. Eh. War Hulk is more specific as well. If only there was some feat you could take to put x ranks into spot. That'd fix it, since you're not actually allocating them.

Edit: Also, sorry Doc. Landlord just matches the money you put into your place. You still need an actual source of money for the endless orbiting battlestations.

Edit2: Alternative strike mechanism. DFA with metabreath feats. Sure, it'll take you a while to recharge, but if you're high enough, you hit almost 50% of the earths surface with one blast.

[Doc Roc]

Edit: Also, sorry Doc. Landlord just matches the money you put into your place. You still need an actual source of money for the endless orbiting battlestations.

Edit2: Alternative strike mechanism. DFA with metabreath feats. Sure, it'll take you a while to recharge, but if you're high enough, you hit almost 50% of the earths surface with one blast.

Asteroids count as currency when you have enough of them. Very sold on DFA strike.

[Tyndmyr]

Well, Im not gonna argue with the guy with killer satellites.

So..Force Missile Mage option. First off, he'll get a gryphon to ride, strap wands of magic missile under each wing, and have his improved familiar, a celestial monkey strapped under said gryphon to fire the wands. This is not actually necessary in any way, living fighter jets are just awesome.

Next we use a human warmage or sorc. You're going to lose one CL by dipping into human paragon for the extra feat and additional goodies. Mainly the feat. You'll want arcane thesis(magic missile), and of course, five levels of force missile mage. This should give us a total of 8 feats left to expend. You want twin spell, repeat spell, fell drain, ocular spell, split ray, quicken spell, invisible spell, and transdimensional spell. Incantatrix also gets folded into this build, for obvious reasons. Strictly speaking, the human paragon is optional, and the lost CL might not actually be worth it...but meh. You get the idea. Horrific amounts of magic missiles. Don't forget arcane fusion.

Now, take that dual layered ring gate I mentioned earlier. Use teleport object to send it to "a distant location on the ethereal plane". Note that as this is an exception to the usual "works like teleport", there is absolutely no limit on this whatsoever. Even without that, though, you still have a slightly ridiculous strike range. Fasten a heavy object to one edge of the ring gate, so it stands up, like a child's sippy cup.

Now, with transdimensional spell, you can cast from ethereal plane and vice versa. So unless your target can see ethereal objects, he has no idea the ring gate is even there, delivered by teleport object. He probably can't target it or you. The missiles are invisible, and thus, may not be seen. Technically, you might as well apply invisibility to the teleport object as well. Interpretations vary.

Kill everything in sight. Teleport to retrieve your frisbee of death.

[AtomicKitKat]

I'm not sure Split Ray would work on Magic Missile. Ocular spell is iffy. If the text read "Only ray spells or spells with a target other than personal can be cast as ocular spells.", I might buy it, but as is, it reads "Only ray spells and spells with a target...etc.". Now granted, the next line suggests that it will accept any non-personal spell, ray or not: "When you release an ocular spell, its effect changes to a ray with a range of up to 60 feet.", but is not definitive, IMNSHO.

Ammunition: Locate City Bomb is always good, and you are trying to locate a city. More precisely, you are locating it so you can bombard it into oblivion!:smallbiggrin:

Apocalypse from the Sky(Radius: 10 mi/level). Just be something immune to Ability Damage/Drain(Note that there is no caveat about Undead or similar being unable to use Corrupt spells).

Crushing Fist of Spite(100 ft+10 ft/level) would be solid(ha ha) for a smaller area, except for the pitiful range.

[CycloneJoker]

I'm not sure Split Ray would work on Magic Missile. Ocular spell is iffy. If the text read "Only ray spells or spells with a target other than personal can be cast as ocular spells.", I might buy it, but as is, it reads "Only ray spells and spells with a target...etc.". Now granted, the next line suggests that it will accept any non-personal spell, ray or not: "When you release an ocular spell, its effect changes to a ray with a range of up to 60 feet.", but is not definitive, IMNSHO.

Ammunition: Locate City Bomb is always good, and you are trying to locate a city. More precisely, you are locating it so you can bombard it into oblivion!:smallbiggrin:

Apocalypse from the Sky(Radius: 10 mi/level). Just be something immune to Ability Damage/Drain(Note that there is no caveat about Undead or similar being unable to use Corrupt spells).

Crushing Fist of Spite(100 ft+10 ft/level) would be solid(ha ha) for a smaller area, except for the pitiful range.

Locate city bomb doesn't work. Fell Drain, instead of explosive, and born of three thunders, however, do work. Make a Wight-pocalypse.

[jiriku]

The epic feats form an elegant aiming solution, although...cloud cover can break LOS. There aren't many ways to see through clouds that lack a distance limit. What's the best route?

Once you can aim, you need munitions. If your DM is interested enough in real-world physics to impose concerns about vacuum and cold, then I suggest that the best munitions are those you make yourself (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129080).

[tuesdayscoming]

I'm in a bit of a rush to get out the door, so apologies for skipping over some replies here. I'll address them when I can.

Tyndmyr, the crazy-epic metamagic applied to MM would definitely provide a reliable source of damage, well done. And your Ring Gate manipulation certainly provides for an interesting solution to the targeting problem. My concern with it, though (if I'm understanding correctly), is that it would require a high level spell to get the ring in range of the target, a second high level spell to retrieve the ring, and a third high level spell to return to orbit. Is this correct? If so, it really cuts down on the amount of ass kicking we could accomplish in a given day.

Doc Roc, your solution is crazy epic, but I fear that it involves a bit too much cheese and deliberate misinterpretation of rules for my liking. All the same, well done, that's pretty freakin' crazy!

The Dragonfire Adept presents an interesting new option. I don't see, though, how we would be able to handle the targeting system. It seems like the range of your breath weapon would always be far too limited. And even if we could engulf half the world in flame, would we be able to accomplish more precise, tactical strikes? At the outset, taking out individual targets while leaving the surrounding environment unaffected was definitely something I wanted to ensure this guy could do.

[tuesdayscoming]

Huh... So I ran the idea for this guy by my play group tonight, and they proposed a simple, elegant solution for the targeting system: the Mirror of Mental Prowess (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm).

Is there any reason that, using this item, we couldn't simply stick a hand through the mirror, and have it appear some distance above our target? Granted, the item is expensive as all get up and go, but really it takes care of one of the main issues with this character concept. Have the portal active for just long enough to execute whatever attack pattern we care to execute, withdraw the relevant body part, and we're back in orbit ready to utterly destroy the next puny mortal who dares to cross us.

[jiriku]

Win! Even with the most conservative interpretation of the effect, you could use Flyby Attack to float through the mirror, fire off a spell, and retreat back through it in a single round. Since the mirror automatically closes, no one has a chance to follow you through.

[tuesdayscoming]

The only real limitation, I suppose, is that the location needs to be 'known to you'... I suppose that we could, prior to going orbital, spend a few decades familiarizing ourselves with all the world's locales, but... yeah...

[Havelock]

The vacuum isn't that dangerous. It just makes physics work very very strangely and lets any and all radiation from the stars to hit you directly. effectively you'd take minor damage (2d6 per round ballpark) plush a lot of status effect: blindness (your eyes boil), penalty to physical actions (your sense of balance is thrown off), and obviously you suffocate.

But I think we can all agree that a space suit or robot is easier.

20d6 damage per round is what the two D&D sources I am aware of that covers the subject gives for being in a Vacum (nail to the sky from some realmsbook and the void surrounding Baator in Fiendish Codex II). A well trained human managed to stay concious in ~14 seconds before he passed because his space suit started leaking in a test chamber with near vacuum. Imagine how he'd fare with no spacesuit rather than a leaking spacesuit which prevented him from being exposed to real vacuum?

2d6 in just damage might be accurate, but I'd call on constitution checks or fortitude saves (with cumulative penalties each round) in order to stay concious, since vacuum has some nasty effects on your respiratory system. That can be countered by a spacesuit, or by not having blood circulation and a respiratory system in the first place.