E6 vs. E7?

[wayfare]

I'm considering running an E6 game, though I'm wondering if it would make a substantial difference to go E7. I know it would allow access to 4th level spells, I just wonder if that access would start to tip the scales towards mage/cleric/druid supremacy that E6 seems to be relatively free of.

Bonus Question:

How does E6 work with the following classes:

Psions (As opposed to wizards)
Psychic Warriors (Seems like they would be pretty strong)
Soulknife (can't decide if E6 is even harsher on this much maligned class)
Incarnate

[Human Paragon 3]

I would not raise it to e7. 4th level spells is where stuff really starts to go tits-up with polymorph, divine power and other known offenders.

Psion is fine. Psychic warrior stays about the same. Soul knife... might be fine. I don't think it suffers especially badly since it can make up some if its shortfallings with extra feats. I still might give it full BAB.

Incarnate gets MUCH better since it can keep adding new soul melds and essentia through feats, while everybody else stops getting spells and class features. Tome of Battle works similarly, although with ToB you still can't learn manuevers over level 3.

[Eldariel]

Tome of Battle works similarly, although with ToB you still can't learn manuevers over level 3.

Huh? I'm pretty sure Adept 7 gets 4th level maneuvers and Martial Study ensures a wide access.

[Draz74]

Traditionally, odd level caps are discouraged because (among other things) they are grossly unfair to Sorcerers and similar delayed-one-level full casters. So if you go up to E7, you might as well keep going up to E8.

Fourth-level spells are powerful, but (Polymorph and Celerity aside) still aren't going to make the game a Wizard/Cleric/Druid fest. E8 is a well-established variant, and it should work fine.

[Eldariel]

Traditionally, odd level caps are discouraged because (among other things) they are grossly unfair to Sorcerers and similar delayed-one-level full casters. So if you go up to E7, you might as well keep going up to E8.

Fourth-level spells are powerful, but (Polymorph and Celerity aside) still aren't going to make the game a Wizard/Cleric/Druid fest. E8 is a well-established variant, and it should work fine.

E8 makes Druids slightly better than they were already. Everybody knows Druid is the king of E6, but E8 gives them Enhance Wildshape-spell and Large Wildshape along with native 3 uses. So...yeah. E8 pretty much catches Druids at their prime, ending when they're pretty much at their absolute best. I mean, sure, they don't get Polymorph, Celerity and all that but their own class features pretty much are at their comparative best at that point.

[Draz74]

E8 makes Druids slightly better than they were already. Everybody knows Druid is the king of E6, but E8 gives them Enhance Wildshape-spell and Large Wildshape along with native 3 uses. So...yeah. E8 pretty much catches Druids at their prime, ending when they're pretty much at their absolute best. I mean, sure, they don't get Polymorph, Celerity and all that but their own class features pretty much are at their comparative best at that point.

Hmmm, fair enough. I was thinking more of how 4th-level spells still don't get you scry-and-die or world-altering abilities, but yeah, I guess Level 8 is indeed a great stopping place for Druids (even more so than L6).

[Eldariel]

Hmmm, fair enough. I was thinking more of how 4th-level spells still don't get you scry-and-die or world-altering abilities, but yeah, I guess Level 8 is indeed a great stopping place for Druids (even more so than L6).

Yeah, it also makes full BAB pretty trivial since E6 only full BAB gets second attack, E8 everyone but ½ BAB gets it. While E8 is definitely ok, E6 is very well thought-out and by far the most balanced of the options aside from "Level 1, no development, play Rocket Launcher Tag; 3, 2, 1, GO!".

[Draz74]

Yeah, it also makes full BAB pretty trivial since E6 only full BAB gets second attack, E8 everyone but ½ BAB gets it.

Assuming the whole stupid iterative attack/full attack system isn't being scrapped anyway, I actually consider this a good thing, since in E6 it bothers me how trivial the Medium/Poor BAB difference becomes. You can still make cool feats that require BAB +7 or +8, after all.

[wayfare]

Thanks for the input!

One thing I was thinking of adding would be features I call Titles: available only at level 6, these function somewhat similarly to prestige classes. Essentially, you purchase a title and gain access to certain special abilities. Here is an example:

Magehunter
Fighter or Paladin 6
Knowledge: Arcana 4 ranks
Unlock: 5000 xp
Effect: If you have successfully attacked an arcane spellcaster this round, that spellcaster gains 30% spell failure until the beginning of your round.
Special: You are known by the title Magehunter. You gain a +2 bonus to your leadership score (if any), but cannot gain an Arcane Spellcaster as a cohort.


Spellparry
Fighter or Paladin 6
Magehunter Title
Unlock: 5000 xp
Effect: If you are the target of an arcane spell, and succeed at your saving throw against that spell, you may make an attack of opportunity against any foe within 30 feet. On a successful attack, your opponent is subject to the spell you avoided.
If targeted with a ray attack, a failed attack roll allows you to attempt a spellparry.
This counts as your attack of opportunity for the round. Even ifr you have the ability to make multiple attacks of opportunity in a round, you can only attempt 1 spellparry.
Special: This attack does not cancel area of effect attacks, though it can reflect the effects of such an attack upon a single opponent. If a paladin is targeted by a Fireball, and succeeds at this saving throw, he may inflict the effects of Fireball upon one opponent within 30 feet.

Would effects like these alter E6 much.

[Dingle]

good 4th level sor/wiz spells from SRD:

Black Tentacles: Tentacles grapple all within 20 ft. spread.
Dimension Door: Teleports you short distance.
Solid Fog: Blocks vision and slows movement.
Scrying : Spies on subject from a distance.
Enervation: Subject gains 1d4 negative levels.
Polymorph: Gives one willing subject a new form.

There's probably others

[ZombyWoof]

Yeah, it also makes full BAB pretty trivial since E6 only full BAB gets second attack, E8 everyone but ½ BAB gets it. While E8 is definitely ok, E6 is very well thought-out and by far the most balanced of the options aside from "Level 1, no development, play Rocket Launcher Tag; 3, 2, 1, GO!".
That describes D&D at most levels from what I've seen.


good 4th level sor/wiz spells from SRD:

Black Tentacles: Tentacles grapple all within 20 ft. spread.
Dimension Door: Teleports you short distance.
Solid Fog: Blocks vision and slows movement.
Scrying : Spies on subject from a distance.
Enervation: Subject gains 1d4 negative levels.
Polymorph: Gives one willing subject a new form.

Oh, are we playing the "How Powerful Are Wizards At EX" game?

E6:

Explosive Runes: No-save, stacks, force damage, 6d6.
Stinking Cloud: Fort-save or lose your standard actions. Also acts as Obscuring Mist against those fighter types.
Deep Slumber: Sleep, but on crack.
Suggestion: Just see how :vaarsuvius: gets along with it
Wind Wall: Immunity to Arrows and Tiny Sized Creatures
Displacement: MC Hammer says "hi" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otCpCn0l4Wo)
Invisibility Sphere: "Mass Invisibility"? OK!
Ray of Exhaustion: ... yeah this one is really boss.
Blink: It's like Displacement, with the added advantage of letting you walk through walls.
Fly: Immunity to Swords, Spears, Axes, and Fists.
Haste: Extra attack per round to the whole team, +30 movement speed for whole team, +1 to AC for whole team, +1 to reflex saves for whole team, and cookies for whole team.
Slow: Basically a "turn your opponents into Zombies" option, except they don't get the Undead immunities. Instead they get... -1 to reflex saves, half move speed, and -1 to hit.

Saying that E8 is backbreaking to fighters or other non-casters is slightly absurd simply because the step up from Ray of Exhaustion to Ennervation, while palpable, is hardly game breaking. Really the sorcs/wizards won when Color Spray could end an entire encounter :smalltongue:

For the record; my opinion is that D&D is at its MOST BALANCED between the classes at ECL 2. Also at ECL 2, Druids are crazy op because they get to be two characters, one of which is half wizard, half fighter, and the other of which is like half fighter, half fighter two levels higher.

EDIT: @Wayfarer, most of my wizards are quite out of the AoE of my spells. I'd also check that because it makes Grease a bit silly. Plus the wording makes it sound like if my Wizard is 30ft away from the Magehunter and casts "Grease" under his square, and the Magehunter passes his save, the Magehunter can then make an attack of opportunity against the Rogue waiting to sneak attack him 30ft on the opposite side.

So, in short, "spellparry" seems to do little against wizards, though I would probably want to give it to all of my fighters. Being able to grant them extra attacks in a round by casting some level 0 fort-save-allowing spell on them seems hilarious. "Touch of Fatigue" "I SMASH THE BOSS." Still, turning level 0 spells into Snake's Swiftness at the cost of a feat isn't all that good.

[Rixx]

E7, AKA "Screw you, Sorcerer"

[Gnorman]

E7, AKA "Screw you, Sorcerer"

And beguiler, warmage, dread necromancer, favored soul...

[Coidzor]

I'm considering running an E6 game, though I'm wondering if it would make a substantial difference to go E7. I know it would allow access to 4th level spells, I just wonder if that access would start to tip the scales towards mage/cleric/druid supremacy that E6 seems to be relatively free of.

Main thing is that it just rubs in the unfair disadvantage that spontaneous casters and psionic characters have in terms of power access. Can't remember if it also disallows martial adepts from their next level of maneuvers while allowing wizards/clerics/druids/archivists their next level of spells or not though.

tl;dr, Adjust the progression of all fullcasters so that they get 4th level spells at 7th level if they got them at 8th.

You should be able to find recommendations for doing so.


How does E6 work with the following classes:

Psions (As opposed to wizards)
Psychic Warriors (Seems like they would be pretty strong)
Soulknife (can't decide if E6 is even harsher on this much maligned class)
Incarnate

Fine, Fine, A bad class is still a bad class, and Fine.

[Eldariel]

*snip*

It's all pretty tame compared to level 4 spells (aside from Explosive Runes which need to be ruled not to stack or have the Fail Dispel-trigger be somewhat less foolproof unless you want to make everything force-immune); Solid Fog doesn't actually have a save, Black Tentacles attacks a defense that's pretty hard to have high enough at this point, Dimension Door and Resilient Sphere just offer sickeningly powerful options, Polymorph suddenly makes not being a full caster mean you aren't a warrior either, Enhance Wildshape + the various extra form feats actually gets you hour/level Shapechange on level 8, Divine Power lols at warrior some more, etc.

Basically, level 4 spells is where casters begin to be better warriors than warriors, which seems undesirable for a game system. Of course casters are strong throughout the levels; duh! But the gap begins growing ridiculously fast around 4th level spells, while there are just few outliers in 3rd or under which are truly ridiculous.

[gomipile]

E8 lets Factotums catch up a bit with the casters, too.

[Killer Angel]

E6 is very well thought-out and by far the most balanced of the options


E7, AKA "Screw you, Sorcerer"

I totally agree.
My only issue with E6, is that it's a little "screw you, bard! you'll never get your nice 3rd level spell".

[Eldariel]

I totally agree.
My only issue with E6, is that it's a little "screw you, bard! you'll never get your nice 3rd level spell".

Well, Bards are supposed to be worse casters than Sorcs; if they got 3s, they'd be Sorcerers with 6+Int skills, medium BAB, 2 good saves, higher HD, Inspire Courage (with access to Words of Creation + Song of the Heart + Inspirational Boost) and few songs of lesser impact. I think it's honestly fine that they only get level 2s; it's not like the disparity between 6s and 9s, after all.

[Killer Angel]

Well, Bards are supposed to be worse casters than Sorcs; if they got 3s, they'd be Sorcerers with 6+Int skills, medium BAB, 2 good saves, higher HD, Inspire Courage (with access to Words of Creation + Song of the Heart + Inspirational Boost) and few songs of lesser impact. I think it's honestly fine that they only get level 2s; it's not like the disparity between 6s and 9s, after all.

Well, to be fair, at 7th lev. the bard can cast 0 3rd lev spells, plus Cha modifiers. Usually, this gives 'em a single 3rd lev. spell / day, not exactly the same as a 7th lev. sorcerer... :smallwink:

[Tyndmyr]

Only do even numbers. E8 is better than E7.

Otherwise, spont casters suck horribly.

[joe]

Also, 4th level spells include Minor Globe of Invulnerability, which basically acts as a barrier to most of the magic available in E8, making it a much more formidable spell. Something you might want to consider.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There are ways to break E6, such as the Versatile Spellcaster Dread Necromancer with Arcane Thesis and a Slaymate unleashing two simultaneous Ocular, (Lesser Rod of) Maximized, Split Ray, Twinned, Sanctum, Enervations, which fires four rays each of which deals eight negative levels. That's pretty much guaranteed to one-shot four E6 opponents. In E8 he wouldn't even need Versatile Spellcaster shenanigans to gain Enervation.

Then there's the Spellhoarding Venerable Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Loredrake with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, Martial Wizard 1/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/ Mindbender 1, Collegiate Wizard, Domain Wizard or (Focused) Specialist optional, which gets 9th level Wizard spellcasting ability for 5th level spells. That knows four 5th, eight 4th, and as many 3rd and lower level spells as it can find. Plus all the Spellhoard shenanigans like copying the same spell over and over ahead of time then using up one copy to cast it as though from a scroll as often as he has copies to lose. In E8 this would have 11th level spellcasting ability, for 6th level spells.

As for typical non-broken characters, going from E6 to E8 means Freedom of Movement comes into play. It also means more prestige class levels will become available, such as Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 3, which can use Metamagic Effect: Persistent Spell.

In any case, a (Wild Shape) Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order is going to be one of the strongest choices for anything up to E10.