TWF+spiked chain+spiked armor+Swordsage = Teh win?

[vageta31]

As the title asks, would this combo actually work? From reading around I understand that if you have TWF and spiked armor, the armor can count as a off hand light weapon thus giving you the offhand attack. I also read that you could theoretically wield a spiked chain(2 handed weapon) and still be able to get your off hand spiked armor attack in the same round.

If this is true, since spiked chain is one of the Swordsage shadow hand stances focus weapons, it could be a cool build. Take shadow blade for the extra dex+str bonus to your spiked chain attacks.

One more question... If you attempt a trip attack and lose the roll and have to drop your chain, does the spiked armor count as threatening a space. Ie; you drop the chain but can still take advantage of AoO's due to the spiked armor counting as a melee attack.

This could be a cool build if so. With quick draw feat, you could easily drop the chain if you had to, still be able to take advantage of any AoO's that creatures provoke, and then on your turn quick draw a shortsword/dagger in your main hand and still get your full TWF attack round. And since those weapons are also shadow hand focus weapons you'd get your dex bonus to damage.

Of course I could be totally wrong on my assumptions, so please poke holes in my theory.

[Greenish]

As the title asks, would this combo actually work? From reading around I understand that if you have TWF and spiked armor, the armor can count as a off hand light weapon thus giving you the offhand attack.Yes.

I also read that you could theoretically wield a spiked chain(2 handed weapon) and still be able to get your off hand spiked armor attack in the same round.Works.

does the spiked armor count as threatening a space.Yes.

[Edit]: Skip Quick Draw, the situation outlined won't be regular enough to warrant it. Slap a Least Crystal of Return (MIC) to your backup weapon.

[vageta31]

Awesome. I mention quick draw as I was planning on taking at least one level of Master Thrower which gives quick draw for free. Master throw with the trip trick and spiked chain trip build would truly be the ultimate tripper. Feat heavy of course, but totally doable. Throw 2 daggers from range and trip the opponent. Next round quick draw the chain, 5ft step back, or better shadow stride, then get some AoO's when he closes. If you miss your trip and have to drop your chain, simply quick draw a dagger or sword in main hand next round.

In theory of course.

[golem1972]

Add in Improved Buckler Defense, and you can 2 Handed / 2 Weapon / Sword and Board at the same time.

[golem1972]

Stupid double post!!

Not to de-rail this, but...

Armor Spikes are listed as a melee weapon.

Lightning throw lets you throw melee weapons.

Bloodstorm Blade lets you ricochet your Lightning Throw and hit multiple targets.

Just an odd thought.

I get this wierd mental image of some martial adept (Mighty) Throwing some poor sucker up against a ceiling (standard action), Shadow Striding up (move action), Belt of Battle (swift action?), and Lightning Throw-ing themselves (second standard action). Divine Impetus for a second swift action to Shadow Blink back to the ground.

Then both parties get back up and start fighting again.

[Baconated]

And if you add in Improved Buckler Defense, and you can 2 Handed / 2 Weapon / Sword and Board at the same time.


:smallbiggrin:

[Greenish]

Add in Improved Buckler Defense, and you can 2 Handed / 2 Weapon / Sword and Board at the same time.

Add in Improved Buckler Defense, and you can 2 Handed / 2 Weapon / Sword and Board at the same time.

And if you add in Improved Buckler Defense, and you can 2 Handed / 2 Weapon / Sword and Board at the same time.Add in a buckler and lose Swordsage's Wis to AC. :smallamused:

[vageta31]

Really? So I could effectively wield a 2h weapon, get a free off handed attack with spike armor and then also get bonus AC with the buckler?! Unfortunately wis is my dump stat on my rogue so I don't get the bonus with swordsage, I'm most getting it for the utility, dex bonus to shadowhand weapons and of course free weapon focus.

Seriously, with that combo why wouldn't any Rogue choose TWF with a 2 hander and spiked armor? I must be missing something?

Oh and with ITWF do you get another attack with spiked armor just as if it was melee?

[Stallion]

And if you add in Improved Buckler Defense, and you can 2 Handed / 2 Weapon / Sword and Board at the same time.


:smallbiggrin:

Or just buy an animated shield.

[Keld Denar]

Check the rules for armor spikes. You can't just slap them on any old armor. Most rogues go for as light of armor as possible without getting nekkid, and light armor won't support spikes.

Also, weapon properties of other weapons might be more desireable. Armor spikes are only a d4 damage, and crit on a 20 for x2. A pair of kukiri crit on a 18-20 x2 with the same damage, and a pair of short swords do 1d6 and crit on a 19-20 x2. If you are dex based, you lose out on most of the advantage of a 2hander, being 2:1 PA (which you don't get ANY of with armor spikes since they are light) and 1.5x +Str (sadly, you don't get 1.5x Dex with Shadowblade). Thus, the only benefit you get from the 2hander is possible reach, and the slightly larger damage die. Not bad, but not as amazing as I think you think we think it is.

EDIT:

Oh and with ITWF do you get another attack with spiked armor just as if it was melee?

Yes. Armor spikes are just like any other weapon. When you wield them in your "offhand", you get all the bonuses and penalties there granted. ITWF and GTWF would give you extra attacks with them, just like they would an offhand dagger or whatever.

Hands don't matter much for TWFing. You can TWF without using ANY hands, assuming you used things like a Weighted Cloak, or the CScoundrel hidden blades like Boot Blade or Knee Blade. Heck, if you got creative enough, you could probably count as wielding about 10-12 weapons at once. That doesn't give you any extra attacks beyond those you get from TWFing, but you will have options if you desire.

[Greenish]

Seriously, with that combo why wouldn't any Rogue choose TWF with a 2 hander and spiked armor? I must be missing something?EWP: Kusari-Gama would probably be better, granting reach for both attacks.


Oh and with ITWF do you get another attack with spiked armor just as if it was melee?It is a melee weapon.

[Edit]:
Armor spikes are only a d4 damageActually, d6. They're also martial weapons, so rogues aren't proficient with them without multiclassing (or taking MWP :smallyuk:).

[herrhauptmann]

Stupid double post!!
Not to de-rail this, but...
Armor Spikes are listed as a melee weapon.
Lightning throw lets you throw melee weapons.
Bloodstorm Blade lets you ricochet your Lightning Throw and hit multiple targets.
Just an odd thought.
I get this wierd mental image of some martial adept (Mighty) Throwing some poor sucker up against a ceiling (standard action), Shadow Striding up (move action), Belt of Battle (swift action?), and Lightning Throw-ing themselves (second standard action). Divine Impetus for a second swift action to Shadow Blink back to the ground.
Then both parties get back up and start fighting again.
Can just delete double posts if no one else has posted yet.
Your idea might work (I dunno), but throwing your enemy needs what? A grapple check and 'fling enemy'? And if you're throwing yourself around, you're scrwed if he has an ally. Also, since you did all this on your turn, he's going to regain his feet before you do, letting him AOO you into oblivion.
There's ways around that as well, but can take even more effort.



Add in a buckler and lose Swordsage's Wis to AC. :smallamused:
How about a Ward cestus? A&EG/Sword and Fist. Grants a shield bonus without actually being a shield. There's a few other weapons which can grant you a shield bonus as well, mostly exotics not used by the various disciplines.

[Greenish]

How about a Ward cestus? A&EG/Sword and Fist. Grants a shield bonus without actually being a shield.Only gives the bonus while fighting defensively or using Expertise, or so I recall.

[yugi24862]

Just want to point out that Cavestalker from DotU allows you to use a spiked chain one-handed 4 levels in, and also give 120ft darkvision. You need natural darkvision to get in and 2 levels in ranger to get one-handed chains though.

[Keld Denar]

Also, armor spikes aren't Shadow Hand weapons, so Shadowblade wouldn't do anything for them...

[vageta31]

Also, armor spikes aren't Shadow Hand weapons, so Shadowblade wouldn't do anything for them...

True, but for a spiked chain build it would at least give you an opportunity for an extra attack if you wanted to burn the feat for TWF.


Check the rules for armor spikes. You can't just slap them on any old armor. Most rogues go for as light of armor as possible without getting nekkid, and light armor won't support spikes.

I can't find this rule anywhere. If you can't use light armor then the idea is basically moot, but I looked through the PHB and it never made mention of the type of armor that is required for installing spikes.


Also, weapon properties of other weapons might be more desireable. Armor spikes are only a d4 damage, and crit on a 20 for x2. A pair of kukiri crit on a 18-20 x2 with the same damage, and a pair of short swords do 1d6 and crit on a 19-20 x2. If you are dex based, you lose out on most of the advantage of a 2hander, being 2:1 PA (which you don't get ANY of with armor spikes since they are light) and 1.5x +Str (sadly, you don't get 1.5x Dex with Shadowblade). Thus, the only benefit you get from the 2hander is possible reach, and the slightly larger damage die. Not bad, but not as amazing as I think you think we think it is.

I understand this. The point being that rogue/swordsage is a very popular combo but usually when using 2 light weapons. The fact that a spiked chain is a shadow hand weapon just opens up the opportunity to take advantage of it. Since using a spiked chain with 2h doesn't give you the 1.5 str bonus, the shadow blade feat essentially fixes that since most rogues have very high dex. The spiked armor and chain together would help give you more damage on a sneak attack, whereas usually you wouldn't want a 2h weapon since you'd only get the SA dice on the main attack.

The build would be a total feat burner, something a rogue/ss doesn't have many of. But a few levels of fighter, swashbuckler(weapon finesse), master thrower(quick draw, trip trick) could help fill in the gaps. Probably not the most powerful build, but you would have many options in battle.

I just started last Friday and my Rogue has +3 dex, +2 str so while tripping may not be guaranteed, at least I have some str bonus. DM also gave me free combat reflexes as a bonus for my backstory so that's a extra feat that could work with a chain. I took TWF and point blank shot as level 1 feats, basically all I need is one level of swordsage(weapon focus dagger) and precise shot, then I could qualify for Master thrower(+5 bab obviously) and pick up a free quick draw and trick.

Just thought it might be cool to have sort of a thrower build when out of range, then quick draw the chain and go to work. And with quick draw, dropping my chain on a failed trip won't hurt too bad because I'd still have spiked armor for AoO threats and next round I could draw 2 swords/daggers as a free action.

I had originally figured a chain would be a waste since I already chose TWF, and if I wanted to use chain at some point I could retrain. But with the armor idea it makes it actually sound intriguing. As you said, none of this may work out as well as I think, but it still sounds like a cool build to play with.

[Keld Denar]

I can't find this rule anywhere. If you can't use light armor then the idea is basically moot, but I looked through the PHB and it never made mention of the type of armor that is required for installing spikes.

Now that you mention it, I can't either. Maybe I'm getting my editions confused, but I could have sworn that you couldn't put armor spikes on light armor...

Also, while your idea is indeed very neat, its not really "Teh win" as you described. Its cool, its neat, and it has its uses, but its hardly amazing enough to be considered "Teh win". Thats what I was getting at. Its not bad, but its also not good. You can't take advantage of your reach and TWF at the same time without taking a 5' step. Yea, the reach is nice for scooping up the free AoOs, but the two attacks don't synergize overly well. As I mentioned, you'd be best off using two Shadow Hand weapons so that you get your Shadowblade damage on BOTH attacks, rather than only getting it on one attack and relying on SA to make up the difference. Combining that with the thrower theme you seem to be wanting to squeeze out of it, you are definitely very strapped for feats. I'd recommend focusing on throwing and skip EWP: Spiked Chain, or focus on the chain and rely on a different weapon for range, like a shortbow or sling. Again, just some suggestions, take them or leave them.

[vageta31]

No I totally agree with you, I am probably trying to squeeze too much out of the build. It just sounded like it'd be a cool idea. I was joking when saying "Teh win" hehe, I hadn't really considered all of the possibilities. I did look up the CScoundrel hidden blades and essentially a knee blade is to be treated as a short sword, so I could achieve the same idea without having to invest in spiked armor, though they do take a -2 penalty and require a move action to enable(with quick draw maybe DM would count as free action). I'm assuming it'd be used in the same way since as it says, "two weapon" fighting, not dual wielding. In fact whatever option I chose, sounds like a knee/boot/elbow/sleeve blade is a good idea for any rogue build. You get disarmed, no biggie you still have weapons to utilize.

Basically I really like the idea of fighting with the chain, but I had already decided to be the skill monkey of the party and was thinking of ways to do it with a rogue instead of a fighter. Swordsage/shadow hand basically seemed like a window of opportunity to make it possible, especially since I got combat reflexes as a freebie. Biggest problem is probably failing to trip enemies stronger than me, so it seemed the TWF/spiked armor was a way to stay effective and not be unarmed.

Maybe I'll have to save the swordsage/chain build for another character that focuses on STR.

[MeeposFire]

Can just delete double posts if no one else has posted yet.
Your idea might work (I dunno), but throwing your enemy needs what? A grapple check and 'fling enemy'? And if you're throwing yourself around, you're scrwed if he has an ally. Also, since you did all this on your turn, he's going to regain his feet before you do, letting him AOO you into oblivion.
There's ways around that as well, but can take even more effort.



How about a Ward cestus? A&EG/Sword and Fist. Grants a shield bonus without actually being a shield. There's a few other weapons which can grant you a shield bonus as well, mostly exotics not used by the various disciplines.

If this is the ward cestus from sword and fist it is a deflection bonus not a shield bonus. Why? Who knows.

[Thurbane]

If this is the ward cestus from sword and fist it is a deflection bonus not a shield bonus. Why? Who knows.
In A&EG, (which I believe is the later source) it's an untyped bonus on the total defense action.

[Darrin]

Also, armor spikes aren't Shadow Hand weapons, so Shadowblade wouldn't do anything for them...

Use a lesser/unawakened sunsword (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft p. 210) with the morphing property. Add the Morphing property (+1 enhancement, MIC p. 39), bastard sword = two-handed martial weapon, so morph it into a spiked chain... that can be wielded one-handed as a shortsword, which *is* a shadow hand weapon. That does 2d6 damage w/reach. Add Heavy + Sizing + Strongarm Bracers to take it up to 3d8 damage.

[Chuckthedwarf]

I'm not sure why you want spiked armor when Improved Unarmed Strike should do the job - and get extra damage from Dex.

Although enchants...

If you need those, yeah, spiked armor works better. Or a gauntlet, whatever you prefer...

[JKTrickster]

Wouldn't two Kusari-Gamas be better? Or am I missing something that it lacks?

[vageta31]

Well all in all I guess the answer is:

1. If you have any wishes to play a finesse chain fighter, there is a dex based solution with swordsage, chain focus and shadow blade feat. May not be as powerful as the heavy armored, high strength fighter, but doable.

2. If you want to keep SA useful you can use armor spikes as a 2nd attack, and also remain armed if you have to drop the chain due to the failed trip. You don't even have to draw the weapon. This of course assumed you burn a TWF feat.

Since I had been given a free combat reflexes feat from my DM I was trying to put it to good use, as a 5ft range won't give me that many chances unfortunately. Oh and off topic... with combat reflexes is there a max number of AoO's? PHB says "1+ dex bonus". That's four from the start for me, with an extra one coming at level 4 when I up my dex.

[Greenish]

Oh and off topic... with combat reflexes is there a max number of AoO's?Yes. It's this:

PHB says "1+ dex bonus".

[Edhelras]

Ah... Spiked chain... the Perfect Combo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html)!

Couldn't resist it.... :smallbiggrin:

[vageta31]

I wasn't really going for the cheese part of the build, though I guess that is what makes it effective. Without the trip and reach it's a mediocre damage weapon at best. I guess with low str it wouldn't be too cheesy considering you may fail half or more of your trip attempts. 2d4+dex bonus to damage+str bonus isn't too bad though. Throw in 3 levels of swashbuckler for +int damage maybe it would be feasible without relying on trip, but then any shadow hand weapon with those bonuses would be just as good or better. Keen kukri's?

[Talya]

Hands don't matter much for TWFing. You can TWF without using ANY hands, assuming you used things like a Weighted Cloak, or the CScoundrel hidden blades like Boot Blade or Knee Blade. Heck, if you got creative enough, you could probably count as wielding about 10-12 weapons at once. That doesn't give you any extra attacks beyond those you get from TWFing, but you will have options if you desire.

Multi-weapon Fighting FTW!

[Greenish]

but then any shadow hand weapon with those bonuses would be just as good or better. Keen kukri's?Kukris aren't Shadow Hand weapons, sadly.

I seem to recall that none of the Shadow Hand discipline weapons have high crit chance or high crit modifier.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, you need 3+ arms to qualify for MWF, and even then, extrapolating from monster stat blocks, you only get one set of attacks per hand you possess. A Xill with GMWF would get 4 sets of attacks, 1 mainhand and 3 offhand, even if he was wielding 4 short swords, 2 boot blades, 2 knee blades, 4 elbow blades, armor spikes, a weighted cloak, and a mouthpick weapon. Just like a human that was wielding all of that, he would simply have more options on which weapons to utilize. A Marilith would likewise only get 6 sets of iterative attacks, one mainhand and 5 offhand, even if she were to somehow wield more than 6 weapons.

[Stallion]

Yea, you need 3+ arms to qualify for MWF, and even then, extrapolating from monster stat blocks, you only get one set of attacks per hand you possess. A Xill with GMWF would get 4 sets of attacks, 1 mainhand and 3 offhand, A Marilith would likewise only get 6 sets of iterative attacks, one mainhand and 5 offhand, even if she were to somehow wield more than 6 weapons.

Right up til they got Perfect Multiweapon Fighting. Of course, that's epic levels.

[vageta31]

Ok so slightly off topic, how does improved trip tie in with sneak attacking? I know that being prone doesn't automatically make you lose dex bonus, but what if you were denied dex bonus during the trip. Would you theoretically still be denied dex bonus while being prone afterwards?

Sample scenario:

1. Surprise round. Move within 10` of creature and initiate attack. Hit and choose to attempt a trip. Trip succeeds and creature falls prone, gaining you the free hit. Does this count as SA damage? Also since he's denied AC bonus during the initial hit, does he still get str check versus trip? Seems theoretically he shouldn't since he's caught totally off guard, but maybe according to RAW he is still allowed it. Anyways, since it's surprise round he has to stay down.

2. Roll for combat initiative and win versus creature. 5 foot step, full chain and spiked armor attack with the +4 bonus for creature being prone. Does SA still count since creature hasn't acted and thus still not granted dex bonus to ac?

3. Creature stands up during it's round. It's in threat range so you get AoO and attempt to trip again. If succeeds you get free attack yet again, then creature only gets one attack since he wasted part of his round standing up.

4. My move, I take a 5ft step back and attack with chain, this time I don't trip. On creatures turn, assuming he has no range or reach weapons he has to provoke another AoO to get within range?

Highly situational, but was just trying to grasp the mechanics of how it all works.

[Keld Denar]

How do you figure Stallion. All PMWF gives you is your 4th iterative attack with each set of offhands. It doesn't give you any more sets of offhands. You are still restricted by the number of hands capable of wielding weapons, not by how many weapons you can concievably wield at once.

vageta31, a person who is flat footed is such until they have a chance to take their turn. If you trip someone before you stab them, they are just as flat footed as they would have been if you had simply stabbed them. If you beat them in initiative and stab them a couple more times while they are prone, all the more power to ya. Standing or prone, they are still flat footed because they haven't acted.

Generally, unless you are enlarged with >20' reach, a person can stand (move equiv), 5' step (since they haven't actually moved), then swing at you once (standard). 5' steps generally don't provoke unless you have Thicket of Blades or Bulwark of Defense (the latter of which actually doesn't make 5's provoke, but rather makes them impossible).

If say...in the surprise round you charged them (standard action charges are allowed in the surprise round), then on your 1st full turn full attacked and THEN 5' stepped back, there would be 10' between you and any movement toward you would provoke because they would need more than a 5' step to reach you. You'd also deny yourself the AoO from them standing up though, so its a trade off.

[Stallion]

How do you figure Stallion. All PMWF gives you is your 4th iterative attack with each set of offhands. It doesn't give you any more sets of offhands. You are still restricted by the number of hands capable of wielding weapons, not by how many weapons you can concievably wield at once.



Which is why I only quoted the sections of your post that Perfect Multiweapon Fighting would apply to.

[Keld Denar]

But all the sections that you quoted only delt with sets of attacks, not the amount of attacks in each set, which is all PMWF affects. Thats like reaching into a fruit basket and exclaiming how good the apples are when you are holding an orange...

Just...confusing to me, this line of reasoning of yours.

[Stallion]

Whoops. Misunderstood your reasoning. Ignore what I said. I thought you were getting to numbers of attacks. Herp derp.

[Greenish]

1. Surprise round. Move within 10` of creature and initiate attack. Hit and choose to attempt a trip. Trip succeeds and creature falls prone, gaining you the free hit. Does this count as SA damage?Obviously.

Also since he's denied AC bonus during the initial hit, does he still get str check versus trip?Yes.

2. Roll for combat initiative and win versus creature. 5 foot step, full chain and spiked armor attack with the +4 bonus for creature being prone. Does SA still count since creature hasn't acted and thus still not granted dex bonus to ac?Yes.

3. Creature stands up during it's round. It's in threat range so you get AoO and attempt to trip again.Perversely, AoO happens before the action that triggered it. Therefore, you can't trip someone with the AoO they provoke by standing from prone, because when your AoO hits them they're still prone. You get the +4 bonus though.


4. My move, I take a 5ft step back and attack with chain, this time I don't trip. On creatures turn, assuming he has no range or reach weapons he has to provoke another AoO to get within range?He can 5' step after you.

[vageta31]

Thanks for the explanations, I had forgotten that 5`step didn't provoke AoO's and getting up for an AoO worked inversely. But the SA prone damage is what I expected, just wanted to make sure. Sounds doable at lower levels, but once you start facing larger creatures at higher levels it probably loses it's effectiveness. Could always retrain combat expertise/improved trip and focus on other feats to be effective later.