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big teej
2011-02-22, 02:58 PM
just what it says on the tin

what's the better build?

I'm still sorting out fluffwise what I want to go with. but in the mean time, I'm curious what 'the better' build is.

A) monk 20
B) fighter 1/monk19
C)Rogue1/Fighter1/monk18


those are your options.
fluff behind each build

monk 20 - a street urchin was taken in by the monastery before he could get into to much trouble.

fighter1/monk 19 - same as above, but took longer to teach the urchin discipline

rogue1/fighter1/monk18 - the monastery didn't get the street urchin until after the boy had developed a talent for theft, initially the boy was only interested in training to get better at fighting, he is now a loyal member of the monastery.

to be honest, the second two hold the most appeal to me.


please explain why you went with your option.
I have a prediction for what build is going to win, but I wanted to ask. just to be sure.

Keld Denar
2011-02-22, 03:05 PM
I'd put money on the 3rd. That die of SA opens up a few awesome combat options like Craven and Staggering Strike.

What do you think of Monk2/PsyWar18 with Tashalatora? Exact same fluff as Monk20, just that you get to pick your spooky mystical powers rather than have WotC heavy handedly assign them haphazardly like they did in the PHB.

FMArthur
2011-02-22, 03:10 PM
Empty Body at 19th level for etherealness might be preferable to a single level in one of the other classes... if you had a way to take advantage of it. As a pure monk you probably would not. Becoming an Outsider at 20th has the benefit of not letting low-level X Person spells work on you, but most have higher-level equivalents and you lose the ability to be targeted with Enlarge Person. DR 10/magic might as well be DR 0/anything for all the effect it has at 20th level.

I'd take the Rogue and Fighter levels every time if my DM was threatening me with a fork to take 18 awful Monk levels.

Last Laugh
2011-02-22, 03:11 PM
The third build would lose access to Empty Body (ethereal monk rounds/day) Would have a +BA of 15, to gain Trapfinding, +1d6 sneak attack, and skill points, and bonus feat.
Also loses access to Perfect Self, which gives full weapon proficiency, DR 10/Magic (AS A CAPSTONE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD) and you become a viable target for Dismissal.
And you have like -1.5 damage per strike and -1 AC over monk 20


Second Build You lose perfect self (Honestly, that's halfway a good thing, maybe entirely)
-1.5 damage per strike -1 AC. Gain a bonus feat. Gain about 1 health

Actually, ALL of these have a BA of +15

I'd go with the second one I guess. I like the etherealness ability.

Really though, these all have too much monk, I suggest you refluff a different class or play unarmed swordsage.

big teej
2011-02-22, 03:12 PM
I'd put money on the 3rd. That die of SA opens up a few awesome combat options like Craven and Staggering Strike.

What do you think of Monk2/PsyWar18 with Tashalatora? Exact same fluff as Monk20, just that you get to pick your spooky mystical powers rather than have WotC heavy handedly assign them haphazardly like they did in the PHB.


ya know, I knew build advice was inevitable....

oh well
source list

BOED
BOVD
masters of the wild
DMG I II
PHB
MM I
MM II
Races of Stone
Dieites and Demigods
....
I think thats it.



other things that matter
psionics are out
anything not in hardcopy or the SRD is out

a pathfinder alchemist was considered 'overpowered' for this group
the build is going to include NO more than 4 levels of non-monk


and I suppose I should add these things to the OP since all I'm going to get is build advice :smallannoyed:

Daftendirekt
2011-02-22, 03:12 PM
If you're dead set on a monk build, the best only actually use maybe 4 levels of the monk class. Take a look at the Drunken Master (CWar), Fist of the Forest (CChamp), Warshaper (CWar*)

*Need some form of shapeshifting to get into this, easiest being hengeyokai or changeling.

Keld Denar
2011-02-22, 03:18 PM
Sorry for the build advice. Just trying to raise awareness.

Assuming Human, I'd actually venture as far as to suggest Fighter4/Monk16 instead. That gets you up to 16/20 BAB for that last attack, and Fighter4 is filled with juicy bonus feats, which, on top of your Monk bonus feats will give you more feats than you can shake a quarterstaff at.

I'd skip the rogue level. You don't have access to Champions of Ruin for Craven, you don't have access to CWarrior for Staggering Strike, and you don't have access to CScoundrel for [Ambush] feats. Without them, the d6 SA is not worth the hassle of trying to qualify for SA most of the time. Better focus on things that you actually CAN do better.

Greenish
2011-02-22, 03:18 PM
C. Losing Empty Body will most likely not affect most of the campaign at all, since you'd only get it at 19-20 anyhow. Get some nifty skills from rogue, delaying your monks abilities is no biggie.

1 (MM) + 2 (MM) = 3 (MM), so you can be a warforged. :smallwink:

Stallion
2011-02-22, 03:21 PM
16 monk 1 fist of the forest 3 forsaker. Con to AC twice. Ish lovely.

Telonius
2011-02-22, 03:22 PM
I'd go with the third build, assuming Rogue was the first class taken. Skill points are precious, especially if you're going to be playing the character from lower levels on up.

Plus the Rogue gets Use Magic Device, which opens up a whole new world of partiallyNOTHING TO SEE HERE, CITIZEN. MOVE ON, MOVE ON.

Eldariel
2011-02-22, 03:25 PM
Mechanically, all 3 are about the same. Though I'd prolly go Rogue 1/Fighter 1/Monk 18; this gives you decent weapon proficiencies and skills for the early levels with Monk providing you with some feats. All of them reach the "no development"-zone around level 8-9 (with Greater Flurry being the singular gain later on) but straight Monk reaches that on level 6, and has very awkward early levels due to no armor (which is life and death on early levels) and poor skills (Rogue at least enables you to be the scout, with Trapfinding, and gets you more skill points to spread out overall).

So...yeah, go Rogue 1/Fighter 1/Monk 18. You get amazing skills on level 1, good armor + shield + weapon on level 2 (with passables on level 1) and some handy feats later on. You can efficiently e.g. wield a Guisarme two-handed to catch far-apart enemies while using your Flurry Unarmed Strikes in the 5' range. And you have the option of wearing armor and using shields if that were convenient at any given circumstances, while that does cost you some Monk abilities (you still keep the feats, the saves and the unarmed damage; the important parts - though you lose Flurry). Of course, that option is hurting a bit without fractional BAB since you'll have BAB equivalent to that of a Wizard on level 3, but you'll kinda make up for that quick enough.


In other words, you'll be a Monk, just with more options. Early on, before the abilities and magic items and stuff takes off, you can use mundane stuff and as you become a "better" Monk, you can make do without armor (Bracers of Armor instead) and using Unarmed Strikes as your primary weapons (start with a two-hander of some kind). And you get feats like Improved Trip without too much worry of the prerequisites which is convenient. So you basically sidestep the biggest early game problems a Monk has by being a Fighter/Rogue instead. And again, if you are a believe of the "class = character"-concept, it makes the most sense for an urchin to start off with Rogue.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-02-22, 03:28 PM
3rd, extra skill ranks, sneak attack, and trapfinding.

Doc Roc
2011-02-22, 03:34 PM
3rd, I suppose. Do you really resent build advice? I can give some if you want, but I don't have to. If you aren't actually interested, it'll save us both some time if you're upfront about this. The limited source list and requirement for no more than 4 non-monk levels basically mean that I can't help you very much, but if you want some limited assistance or itemization help, this I can do.

Daftendirekt
2011-02-22, 03:38 PM
Yeah, when asking about builds, always list what books you are allowed right away and avoid lots of needless advice and posts.

Especially when the build in question is a monk.

Especially when the build in question is monk 20.

Last Laugh
2011-02-22, 03:38 PM
16 monk 1 fist of the forest 3 forsaker. Con to AC twice. Ish lovely.

Do they stack? anyway, ewwww forsaker.

Deepwarden works better to this end, and none of that messy 'does it stack' business.

big teej
2011-02-22, 03:39 PM
it's not that I'm 'against' build advice.

I'm simply not looking for it in this thread.

appreciate the offer though.

Doc Roc
2011-02-22, 03:40 PM
it's not that I'm 'against' build advice.

I'm simply not looking for it in this thread.

appreciate the offer though.

As you would. Let me know if you want item selection help.

Gavinfoxx
2011-02-22, 03:58 PM
Lessee...

BOED
BOVD
masters of the wild
DMG I II
PHB
MM I
MM II
Races of Stone
Dieites and Demigods

psionics are out
anything not in hardcopy or the SRD is out

a pathfinder alchemist was considered 'overpowered' for this group
the build is going to include NO more than 4 levels of non-monk

Okayy... hmmmm... why can't you do stuff like horizon walker or deepwarden? I'd do lots of fighter, 2 levels of monk, some of that stuff... Hell, a straight barbarian, maybe with a few fighter levels, specced out for unarmed fighting would be better at it! Why the restriction on four levels of monk? Could you elaborate on that? I believe there was a core build that copies all the abilities of monk without using any levels of monk, somewhere...

Stallion
2011-02-22, 04:10 PM
Do they stack? anyway, ewwww forsaker.

Deepwarden works better to this end, and none of that messy 'does it stack' business.

It does indeed stack. Hell, throw in deepwarden too and you get it three times to AC. Forsaker gives a bonus to natural armor, while fist of the forest provides a bonus identical to the monk wisdom AC bonus. Deepwarden uses your con mod for your dodge AC rather than your dex.

Eldariel
2011-02-22, 05:24 PM
it's not that I'm 'against' build advice.

I'm simply not looking for it in this thread.

appreciate the offer though.

Btw, how about Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Monk 16? Would make just as much sense and get around the nasty BAB drop from Rogue 1. Unless you get fractionals in which case it doesn't really make all that much difference.

faceroll
2011-02-22, 07:00 PM
You may want to check out the variant monk feats on the SRD. Playing a goliath monk with improved trip would be quite powerful at level 3.