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Lord.Sorasen
2011-02-22, 06:54 PM
So, I am designing a couple NPCs for a campaign I am running currently. The idea is for them to be sort of a play on the Banjo Kazooie sort of idea (in that one is bigger and the other spends his time on the shoulder being ridiculous. Furthermore I want them both animal-esque.) Right now I am leaning towards Lizard-man for the larger one, and the tiny sized "muckdweller" as the smaller one, so that he can literally sit upon his shoulder.

Naturally, it seems like the muckdweller would be some sort of magical unit and the larger one the brawn... But I was sort of thinking: what if it was the other way around? What if the muckdweller was the physical melee type?

Now, it seems like this would be difficult to do decently, given the tiny weapon size, the lack of reach, and the -6 to strength. But it's an NPC. I'm not looking for "awesome." I'm just looking for passable. The fact that the party isn't too optimized couldn't hurt either.

These guys are going to be aiding the party in a couple instances rather than fighting against them, if that's useful to know.

Anyway, I know this idea isn't good. But I want to see what can be done. Also, ToB and incarnum... I'd rather not use either, simply because I don't know quite how they work and already told the party they can't use these resources.

Zaq
2011-02-22, 06:59 PM
No ToB? Damn. A swordsage would be perfect.

Anyway . . . maybe go into Stoneblessed, followed by Blade Bravo? Iron Chef XI (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166539) might give you some good ideas (and, of course, there's always The Other Killer Gnome out there . . . Google it, I guess).

Lord.Sorasen
2011-02-22, 07:06 PM
No ToB? Damn. A swordsage would be perfect.

Anyway . . . maybe go into Stoneblessed, followed by Blade Bravo? Iron Chef XI (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166539) might give you some good ideas (and, of course, there's always The Other Killer Gnome out there . . . Google it, I guess).

Oh I'm completely aware about the swordsage, but I just don't feel it's fair to use an entire ruleset my players weren't allowed to touch. :[

I will look into this one. That sounds about right.

Cog
2011-02-22, 07:07 PM
There's a build called "I might be small, but you're dead!" somewhere (BG?) that might be good for this.
That one depends on being in your enemy's space instead of your ally's, alas.

Which is going to be the main problem with this. If you're Tiny, even a reach weapon doesn't give you reach. You need to find things that add 5' of reach instead of doubling reach - there's a Duskblade spell that does it, for example.

Edit: Have a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777) to browse through.

Urpriest
2011-02-22, 07:23 PM
That one depends on being in your enemy's space instead of your ally's, alas.

Which is going to be the main problem with this. If you're Tiny, even a reach weapon doesn't give you reach. You need to find things that add 5' of reach instead of doubling reach - there's a Duskblade spell that does it, for example.

Edit: Have a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777) to browse through.

To be fair, just because the guy runs around on his ally doesn't mean he has to fight that way. I could see him spending most of his time hanging out on his ally's back, jumping off onto his foes when the fight starts.

Lord.Sorasen
2011-02-22, 11:43 PM
To be fair, just because the guy runs around on his ally doesn't mean he has to fight that way. I could see him spending most of his time hanging out on his ally's back, jumping off onto his foes when the fight starts.

I was sort of considering the ally using leap attack or some variant to sort of spring off his ally. Or simply leaving his ally in a fight. I mean, he'll sort of be upon his ally normally just for convenience's sake, but in a fight that would probably change.

Squally!
2011-02-22, 11:48 PM
what if the brawn was a sneak attacking archer of some kind? or do you want it to be a stabbity sort?

Acero
2011-02-23, 12:21 AM
what if the brawn was a sneak attacking archer of some kind? or do you want it to be a stabbity sort?

Yeah, it could be a very good idea if you play the little one as an archer-type

or you could have it as the big guy's bodyguard. doesn't do any fighting, but if you get to close to his friend, it ain't gonna end well for you..:smallbiggrin:

I remember reading in a book that did something similar. It was a military unit that consisted of an archer and a spearman. The archer would pick off enemies from a distance while the spearman skewered anyone who gets in range.

Eisirt
2011-02-23, 12:29 AM
I wanted to suggest the "Fling Ally" feat from Races of Stone for the bigger of the two NPC's, but took a second look at the preq's and sighed. :smalleek:

gbprime
2011-02-23, 12:41 AM
what if the brawn was a sneak attacking archer of some kind?

Or a boomerang daze fighter? 1d4 + bonuses isn't that much different from 1d2 + bonuses...

And you can put that +6 racial dex bonus to work by taking the Targeteer fighter variant from Dragon 310 or the Dead Eye feat from Dragon Compendium (the errata corrects the +14 BAB requirement to just +1). Either of these give Dex as bonus damage.

Funkyodor
2011-02-23, 02:38 AM
Starting a grapple puts you in the enemies square, which is where the little guy wants to be. Have the big guy start a grapple and the little guy can then start a thwappin'!

Lord.Sorasen
2011-02-23, 03:55 AM
Right now I am leaning towards the early build of the "I may be small, but you're dead" build. Combine passive Way monk with swashbuckler... But then, I feel the monk is there to make the prestige into blade bravo. I want to do stoneblessed+Blade Bravo, but this guy will be level 5 or 6 tops. Maybe even 7. But not high enough to get the real Blade Bravo powers.

Person_Man
2011-02-23, 08:45 AM
Your options for getting really small are:

Reduce Person spell
Compression power
Alter Self spell
Polymorph spell
Metamorphosis power
Polymorph Any Object spell
Ring of Reduction (Lords of Madness pg. 130)
Divine Minion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) template (hawk or cat).
Tibbit. Dragon Compendium.
Jermalaine. MM II.
Muckdweller. Serpent Kingdoms.
Master of Many Forms (Wildshape: Diminuitive at 8th)
Hengeyokai (Polymorph into sparrow)


Remember that magic has weird stacking and transparancy rules, so in most cases you can't use Reduce Person + Alter Self or Alter Self + Compression. My suggestion is that you just play a Tiny race, or use a Master of Many Forms, Psychic Warrior, or Warshaper you can also use Compression or Expansion as needed and get an Ant Man/Giant Man build.

Once you've gotten really small, you're not going to have reach. Thus melee is going to be difficult for you. So you have two real options.

First, you can do anything that doesn't rely on melee, such as being a full caster, psionics, etc. You could also be an archer build of some sort, and rely on precision damage, but I discourage this since it's boring and weak.

Second, you could invest in the Underfoot Combat -> Confound the Big Folk feats in Races of the Wild. It has some very specific mechanics you have to follow, but basically if you're two sizes smaller then your enemy then you can move into his square, and the next round he’s Flat Footed against you, and when other enemies attack you they have a 50% chance of hitting the enemy in your square instead of you.

This opens up two very useful build options.

You could invest in the Iaijutsu Focus is a Skill from Oriental Adventures. (By RAW, 3.0 is grandfathered into 3.5, and the Oriental Adventures Samurai and Factotum both get it as class Skills). Whenever you are making an attack roll immediately after drawing a weapon and your target is Flat Footed you may make an Iaijutsu Focus check as a free action. You can gain massive damage to your attack, based on your check. And it goes without saying that Skills are quite easy to boost via feats, items, dips into Marshal, Item Familiars, and spells. You can use Quickdraw to draw a weapon every time you want to attack, or invest in Exotic Weapon Prof (Gnome Quickrazor, from Races of Stone), which is a free action to draw and sheath.

Or you could play a Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429). Move into an enemy's square, and activate Test of Mettle. Enemies attack you. They have a 50% chance of hitting their friend, and a 50% chance of hitting you (which should be very difficult, given your Size, Dex, armor, shield, Underfoot/Confound bonuses, etc). If they kill the enemy whose square you're in, move into another enemy's square.

Unfortunately these two options are mutually exclusive, since the Knight loses a Knight's Challenge use every time he attacks a Flat Footed enemy. But a nice DM will let you replace your Knight's Code with something more workable.

Darrin
2011-02-23, 09:45 AM
There's another option. The return to nature spell from Eberron, when cast on a creature with the giant type, reduces their size one step as an instantaneous effect (which, unlike polymorph, can't even be dispelled). Repeat until you're at whatever size you like.

Person_Man
2011-02-23, 10:29 AM
There's another option. The return to nature spell from Eberron, when cast on a creature with the giant type, reduces their size one step as an instantaneous effect (which, unlike polymorph, can't even be dispelled). Repeat until you're at whatever size you like.

That's interesting. Is it even possible to get Giant type as a PC? IIRC Half-Giant is Monstrous Humanoid. Also, do you recall which Eberron book it's in?

Human Paragon 3
2011-02-23, 11:03 AM
Blue jean baby...
L.A. lady...
Seamstress for the band...

Anybody else hear this after reading the thread subject?



When I say softly, slowly

[repeat chorus]

Greenish
2011-02-23, 11:06 AM
That's interesting. Is it even possible to get Giant type as a PC?Half-Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#halfGiants) is Giant.

[Edit]: And so is Eneko (+1 LA, no RHD) from Secrets of Sarlona.

Darrin
2011-02-23, 12:29 PM
That's interesting. Is it even possible to get Giant type as a PC? IIRC Half-Giant is Monstrous Humanoid. Also, do you recall which Eberron book it's in?

Half-giant is type giant. You're thinking of Goliath.

The follow-up question would be, can you get the giant type without a level adjustment? For that you can do something with enlarge person + dustform + incarnate construct, or just a temporary polymorph, but I haven't been able to find any ECL 1 giants.

Thurbane
2011-02-23, 04:19 PM
Half-Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#halfGiants) is Giant.

[Edit]: And so is Eneko (+1 LA, no RHD) from Secrets of Sarlona.
Also, Half-ogre: LA +2, but you are large.

Lord.Sorasen
2011-02-23, 08:32 PM
Your options for getting really small are:

Reduce Person spell
Compression power
Alter Self spell
Polymorph spell
Metamorphosis power
Polymorph Any Object spell
Ring of Reduction (Lords of Madness pg. 130)
Divine Minion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) template (hawk or cat).
Tibbit. Dragon Compendium.
Jermalaine. MM II.
Muckdweller. Serpent Kingdoms.
Master of Many Forms (Wildshape: Diminuitive at 8th)
Hengeyokai (Polymorph into sparrow)


Remember that magic has weird stacking and transparancy rules, so in most cases you can't use Reduce Person + Alter Self or Alter Self + Compression. My suggestion is that you just play a Tiny race, or use a Master of Many Forms, Psychic Warrior, or Warshaper you can also use Compression or Expansion as needed and get an Ant Man/Giant Man build.

Once you've gotten really small, you're not going to have reach. Thus melee is going to be difficult for you. So you have two real options.

First, you can do anything that doesn't rely on melee, such as being a full caster, psionics, etc. You could also be an archer build of some sort, and rely on precision damage, but I discourage this since it's boring and weak.

Second, you could invest in the Underfoot Combat -> Confound the Big Folk feats in Races of the Wild. It has some very specific mechanics you have to follow, but basically if you're two sizes smaller then your enemy then you can move into his square, and the next round he’s Flat Footed against you, and when other enemies attack you they have a 50% chance of hitting the enemy in your square instead of you.

This opens up two very useful build options.

You could invest in the Iaijutsu Focus is a Skill from Oriental Adventures. (By RAW, 3.0 is grandfathered into 3.5, and the Oriental Adventures Samurai and Factotum both get it as class Skills). Whenever you are making an attack roll immediately after drawing a weapon and your target is Flat Footed you may make an Iaijutsu Focus check as a free action. You can gain massive damage to your attack, based on your check. And it goes without saying that Skills are quite easy to boost via feats, items, dips into Marshal, Item Familiars, and spells. You can use Quickdraw to draw a weapon every time you want to attack, or invest in Exotic Weapon Prof (Gnome Quickrazor, from Races of Stone), which is a free action to draw and sheath.

Or you could play a Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429). Move into an enemy's square, and activate Test of Mettle. Enemies attack you. They have a 50% chance of hitting their friend, and a 50% chance of hitting you (which should be very difficult, given your Size, Dex, armor, shield, Underfoot/Confound bonuses, etc). If they kill the enemy whose square you're in, move into another enemy's square.

Unfortunately these two options are mutually exclusive, since the Knight loses a Knight's Challenge use every time he attacks a Flat Footed enemy. But a nice DM will let you replace your Knight's Code with something more workable.

I think this knight idea is my favorite so far. How would I prevent my opponent from 5 foot step attacking me while I'm in his square? Actually, how do I do that part where I get in his square? Could I tumble in, perhaps? I feel like while I want to have armor and a shield and such for AC, but that a good portion of my ac will come from my +6 dexterity modifier and I shouldn't go past that.

Since I am the DM, and I have only a few levels to work this guy out (probably around 6-7), I would rather do it in a build without too much to worry about. Knight seems perfect for that.

As I'd stated, I very particularly want a muckdweller, and I see that works great with that, so I'll work with it.

zephyrkinetic
2011-02-23, 08:49 PM
There's always the "Hurl Ally" (or something worded similarly) feat from Races of Stone for your big guy. Make Tiny an expert crossbowman, and he can fire in midair. Give your tiny guy massive armor with a bunch of spikes and the Returning enchantment for added fun.

Edit:


I wanted to suggest the "Fling Ally" feat from Races of Stone for the bigger of the two NPC's, but took a second look at the preq's and sighed. :smalleek:

Oh wait. What's wrong with the pre-reqs? I must be missing something. I thought the thrower just needed to be Large, or a powerful build. And some common-sense Str requirements. Unless you mean rock-hurling or whatever. But that's dumb. Anyone can chuck rocks.

Croverus
2011-02-23, 08:53 PM
This build might help you: Killer Gnome (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872846/I_May_Be_Tiny,_But_Youre_Dead:_the_other,_melee_Ki ller_Gnome,_for_your_pleasure.)

Lord.Sorasen
2011-02-23, 09:16 PM
There's always the "Hurl Ally" (or something worded similarly) feat from Races of Stone for your big guy. Make Tiny an expert crossbowman, and he can fire in midair. Give your tiny guy massive armor with a bunch of spikes and the Returning enchantment for added fun.

Edit:



Oh wait. What's wrong with the pre-reqs? I must be missing something. I thought the thrower just needed to be Large, or a powerful build. And some common-sense Str requirements. Unless you mean rock-hurling or whatever. But that's dumb. Anyone can chuck rocks.

It's either large or goliath particularly, and 19+ strength. And rock-hurling is actually a prerequisite feat. My biggest issue is that I'd need to be a large creature and I would sort of like them to both be Lizards. They're going to be priests of a Dragon God (not Bahamut or Tiamut, but I haven't chosen exactly what yet) (I say priest because I figure they can be devout without being clerics.)

So then, yeah. If only, though. Honestly, I can't see why it can't be done without a feat. I mean, I have no such feat as a normal person, but if I could find a person around a foot tall I bet I could pick them up and throw them to some extent. Maybe not well, but a little bit at least.

It's dumb that it has large size as a prereq. I'm really not at all fond of the idea of size based feats. I mean, it should be relative. Why could a human not learn to throw a diminutive sized character, while an ogre could?

zephyrkinetic
2011-02-23, 09:30 PM
It's either large or goliath particularly, and 19+ strength. And rock-hurling is actually a prerequisite feat. My biggest issue is that I'd need to be a large creature and I would sort of like them to both be Lizards. They're going to be priests of a Dragon God (not Bahamut or Tiamut, but I haven't chosen exactly what yet) (I say priest because I figure they can be devout without being clerics.)

So then, yeah. If only, though. Honestly, I can't see why it can't be done without a feat. I mean, I have no such feat as a normal person, but if I could find a person around a foot tall I bet I could pick them up and throw them to some extent. Maybe not well, but a little bit at least.

It's dumb that it has large size as a prereq. I'm really not at all fond of the idea of size based feats. I mean, it should be relative. Why could a human not learn to throw a diminutive sized character, while an ogre could?

I agree with you on the size requirement. If you're the DM, though, just screw the requirement. And if you'd rather not, there's all manner of templates that can make a dude Large, and if all he's doing is acting as a vehicle for Tiny's canned mayhem, it shouldn't hurt to burn some Level Equivalencies to use said templates, and maybe take that dumb feat. Because, y'know, nothing prepares someone for throwing around other living creatures like winging boulders around.

I dunno. Something about the rules barring me from playing something as ridiculous as a big lizard who flings tiny spikey friends at the baddies just annoys me. It's like, "Come on. This is not a game-ender. Just let me do it."

Urpriest
2011-02-23, 09:52 PM
It shouldn't be too hard to just jump/tumble into the enemy's space, really.

Underfoot Combat is accessible at 7th level, since it requires 10 ranks in tumble. It makes it so you don't provoke attacks of opportunity for moving through spaces of opponents two sizes or more larger, so you don't actually need to worry about how you get in their space, you can really just walk there. Then Confound the Big Folk gives you your fun tricks. In order to get it all by 7th level you'd need a way to get two feats right when you turn level 7, and neither appears to be a fighter bonus feat...so it would be tricky to make it work that early. Potentially doable if you finesse things enough though.

As for the problem of enemies just stepping away, Knight can make adjacent squares difficult terrain, while the Giantbane tactical feat from Complete Warrior can get you the awesome ability to climb on top of your foes and ride them around the battlefield.

megabyter5
2011-02-23, 11:02 PM
There's a lot of feats with size requirements that really don't make sense. Specifically, any feat that specifies your target must be X size categories smaller than you should not have a size requirement, and just leave it to common sense for a Tiny creature not to have a feat that only works on enemies three or more size categories smaller than them.

Zaq
2011-02-24, 01:19 AM
It shouldn't be too hard to just jump/tumble into the enemy's space, really.

Underfoot Combat is accessible at 7th level, since it requires 10 ranks in tumble. It makes it so you don't provoke attacks of opportunity for moving through spaces of opponents two sizes or more larger, so you don't actually need to worry about how you get in their space, you can really just walk there. Then Confound the Big Folk gives you your fun tricks. In order to get it all by 7th level you'd need a way to get two feats right when you turn level 7, and neither appears to be a fighter bonus feat...so it would be tricky to make it work that early. Potentially doable if you finesse things enough though.

As for the problem of enemies just stepping away, Knight can make adjacent squares difficult terrain, while the Giantbane tactical feat from Complete Warrior can get you the awesome ability to climb on top of your foes and ride them around the battlefield.

Technically, there's a halfling monk variant in Champions of Valor (or the WE thereto) that gets Underfoot Combat at level 1.

No, he's neither a halfling nor a monk. I just thought I'd mention it as a curiosity.