Barbarian/Fighter/Fist of the Forest/Bear Warrior questions

[JamesW]

Thanks in advance for to everyone helping out!

I am planning on making a Goliath character that delves into a few classes. Here is the layout of the build so far.

Lvl1: Goliath Barbarian(racial sub)(power attack)
Lvl2-3: Fighter (for the bonus feats)(Improved Unarmed Strike, the third required feat for FotF, and I’m thinking Cleave or improved bull rush)
Lvl4-6: Fist of the Forest
Lvl7: Not sure what class (I’m thinking about druid for the animal companion)
Lvl8-12: Bear Warrior
Not sure how I want to roll after this.

Questions:
Goliath Barbarians get Mountainous Rage. This states that they grow to size large and get +2 str on top of any other modifiers and get a reach of 10ft. So, when I dip into Bear Warrior, will I still be large when I polymorph into a black/brown bear?

Fist of the Forest states that I need a BAB of +4 to go into the class. Can I get this at level 4? Or do I need to have the +4BAB before going into the class?

I’m working with a 32 point buy system. Which stat line do you guys think would suit the character better?

Str:22, Dex: 10, Con: 16, Int: 10, Wis: 10, Cha: 10
Str: 18, Dex: 12, Con: 16, Int: 12, Wis: 12, Cha: 14
Str: 16, Dex: 12, Con: 16, Int: 12, Wis: 14, Cha: 14

Do you have any alternate stat build options that you think would better suit this character?

Also, about attacking: When I am in bear form do I lose all my normal attack bonuses and gain the bears three attacks? Does the damage increase from Fist of the Forest stack with the bears claw attacks?

If I go with druid at level 7(I might need to push Bear Warrior back if I do) is my Animal Companion based off my total level or just my druid levels in terms of what HD creature I can bond with?

[Cog]

Goliath Barbarians get Mountainous Rage. This states that they grow to size large and get +2 str on top of any other modifiers and get a reach of 10ft. So, when I dip into Bear Warrior, will I still be large when I polymorph into a black/brown bear?

As normal for polymorph, the bear warrior gains the bear form’s physical qualities (including size, movement, natural armor bonus, natural weapons, space, and reach)...
Bolding added.

Fist of the Forest states that I need a BAB of +4 to go into the class. Can I get this at level 4? Or do I need to have the +4BAB before going into the class?
You don't get your BAB until you choose the class you're advancing in, and you can't choose Fist until you've got 4 BAB. Fist 1 will be your 5th character level (or later).

[sonofzeal]

Goliath Barbarians get Mountainous Rage. This states that they grow to size large and get +2 str on top of any other modifiers and get a reach of 10ft. So, when I dip into Bear Warrior, will I still be large when I polymorph into a black/brown bear?
Large, yes. But if your Bear form is Large (ie Brown Bear), then you wouldn't become Huge. You also only gain the benefits of Mountainous Rage, not the massive bonuses a black bear would normally get for advancing to Large.


Fist of the Forest states that I need a BAB of +4 to go into the class. Can I get this at level 4? Or do I need to have the +4BAB before going into the class?
You need +4BAB first.


I’m working with a 32 point buy system. Which stat line do you guys think would suit the character better?

Str:22, Dex: 10, Con: 16, Int: 10, Wis: 10, Cha: 10
Str: 18, Dex: 12, Con: 16, Int: 12, Wis: 12, Cha: 14
Str: 16, Dex: 12, Con: 16, Int: 12, Wis: 14, Cha: 14
The first one, most likely. Why do you need points in Cha anyway? I don't see the benefit on this build. Since Fist is unarmored though, higher Dex might help. Your minimum should be...

Str:20, Dex: 12, Con: 16, Int: 8, Wis: 8, Cha: 8

...with 10 more points to spread as you choose.


Do you have any alternate stat build options that you think would better suit this character?
Rolling's never bad, if you really hate having negatives.


Also, about attacking: When I am in bear form do I lose all my normal attack bonuses and gain the bears three attacks? Does the damage increase from Fist of the Forest stack with the bears claw attacks?
Your attack bonus stays, but your damage is just claw damage, and you don't get "iterative" attacks for having high BAB. Ask your DM about unarmed damage and natural weapons; it doesn't work by RAW, but it makes some logical sense. You'll be fine either way though.


If I go with druid at level 7(I might need to push Bear Warrior back if I do) is my Animal Companion based off my total level or just my druid levels in terms of what HD creature I can bond with?
Just your Druid level. There's a feat that works like "Practiced Spellcaster", boosting your effective druid level with a limit of your HD, but I forget the name of it. Note that a 1-level dip in Beastmaster can also boost your animal companion significantly.

[The Cat Goddess]

Thanks in advance for to everyone helping out!

I am planning on making a Goliath character that delves into a few classes. Here is the layout of the build so far.

Lvl1: Goliath Barbarian(racial sub)(power attack)
Lvl2-3: Fighter (for the bonus feats)(Improved Unarmed Strike, the third required feat for FotF, and I’m thinking Cleave or improved bull rush)
Lvl4-6: Fist of the Forest
Lvl7: Not sure what class (I’m thinking about druid for the animal companion)
Lvl8-12: Bear Warrior
Not sure how I want to roll after this.

Questions:
Goliath Barbarians get Mountainous Rage. This states that they grow to size large and get +2 str on top of any other modifiers and get a reach of 10ft. So, when I dip into Bear Warrior, will I still be large when I polymorph into a black/brown bear?

I believe the answer there is, no. Polymorph/Shapechange/etc does not work that way. However, given that your becoming a Bear is part of Raging and that increasing in Size is also part of Raging, they might stack. Check with your DM.


Fist of the Forest states that I need a BAB of +4 to go into the class. Can I get this at level 4? Or do I need to have the +4BAB before going into the class?

You must have the prereq's before entering the class, which means the earliest entry would be level 5. Level 6 if you go with Unarmed Swordsage for a level or 2 instead of Fighter... you get your Improved Unarmed Strike and Wis to AC that way. Plus, cool Tiger-Claw maneuvers.


I’m working with a 32 point buy system. Which stat line do you guys think would suit the character better?

Str:22, Dex: 10, Con: 16, Int: 10, Wis: 10, Cha: 10
Str: 18, Dex: 12, Con: 16, Int: 12, Wis: 12, Cha: 14
Str: 16, Dex: 12, Con: 16, Int: 12, Wis: 14, Cha: 14

Do you have any alternate stat build options that you think would better suit this character?

Once you become a Bear, your physical stats become those of the Bear. I'd go with set 2, but I'm not sure why you'd pick Cha 14 instead of Dex 14, especially since your Con-to-AC from Fist of the Forest doesn't work if you wear armor (I believe).


Also, about attacking: When I am in bear form do I lose all my normal attack bonuses and gain the bears three attacks? Does the damage increase from Fist of the Forest stack with the bears claw attacks?

1) Yes. That is the nature of Polymorph/Shapechange/Alternate Form. It's why Druids make good melee'ers.
2) No. Fist of the Forest specifically increases your Unarmed Strike damage, not your Natural Attack damage.


If I go with druid at level 7(I might need to push Bear Warrior back if I do) is my Animal Companion based off my total level or just my druid levels in terms of what HD creature I can bond with?

Animal Companion HD/Abilities are based off your Druid level. There's a feat you can get to increase this (by 4, I think) up to a maximum of your character level if you're a multi-class.

[Keld Denar]

Couple corrections to the people above.

Bear Warrior doesn't make you a bear (stat replacement). It gives you stat bonuses roughly equal to the stat bonuses a bear gets. Thus, higher base stats are still VERY desireable, unlike a druid wildshaping.

Multiple size increases don't stack. Thus, Mountain Rage would make you a large black bear (1 size increase), but once you get Brown Bear form which is already large, you wouldn't increase anymore from there. Thus, there isn't much of an advantage to mountain rage over normal rage, especially since Bear Rage replaces your normal rage stats, so you wouldn't even get the +2 Str normally associated with Mountain Rage once you start going bear. Also, be sure to check the errata online for Bear Warrior. They took out the whole Bears/day part. You can now Bear Rage anytime you rage instead of normal rage.

You can combine UASs and natural attacks. When you do this, your UAS is your PRIMARY weapon (treated like a manufactured weapon in that it gets iterative attacks), and ALL of your other natural attacks (claw/claw/bite) all become SECONDARY natural weapons. Since UAS doesn't interfere with your ability to claw someone like holding a sword would, you can do BOTH at once. Example, if you had a BAB of +11 and Multiattack, your attack routine would be UAS+11/UAS+6/UAS+1/Claw+9/Claw+9/Bite+9. Don't forget to factor in your size increase to your UAS damage when you become a brown bear or dire bear (assuming you get that far). Note, you can't use your Feral Trance bite with your bear bite. Turns out your mouth will be to busy biting fools to bite more fools. The weapon is considered to be "occupied" in the same manner that holding a sword would impose. Thus, you only get the higher damage dice of the two bites, which IIRC, is the bear bite.

I wouldn't dip druid. It doesn't really gain you much. Your animal companion will be so weak it'll die in one hit, you lose BAB, and the spells you get will be of low impact. Best stay with the mauling face theme. Natural Bond is the feat that The Cat Goddess is looking for. Its in Races of the Wild, IIRC, but it only increases your effective Druid level by 3, meaning you'd have the same AC as a 4th level druid. Thats not much better than a 1st level druid, so best to skip it.

I'd suggest you look into Frostrager from Frostburn. Flip your bear and go polar. Frostrager gives you some nice defensive bonuses, offensive bonuses, a pseudo-flurry, and REND! Rend is golden. Its free damage for doing what you already do well, tearing people's arms from their sockets.

Another fun thing you can do is take Stoneblessed levels (Races of Stone) to emulate a Dwarf. That opens up 2 levels of Deepwarden, allowing you to completely dump Dex to get +Con to AC (again!). With the massive Con bonuses you get from becoming a bear, your AC will be UNCOMFORTABLY high.

Barbarian1/Stoneblessed3/FotF3/Deepwarden2/BearWarrior10 is decent. Alternatively, stick with BearWarrior1 and take 4 levels of Warshaper and some Frost Rager. RAWR!

For more information, check out the Animal Lord Iron Chef competition, for the entry Bearfist Fistbear. It's got more bear than your build has room for! Alternatively, Eldariel's Being Bane: A Barbarian's Guide to Crushing Small Men is a great resource.

[Cog]

Multiple size increases don't stack. Thus, Mountain Rage would make you a large black bear (1 size increase)...
Sorry, but your correction is incorrect. I quoted the relevant text earlier in the thread:

As normal for polymorph, the bear warrior gains the bear form’s physical qualities (including size, movement, natural armor bonus, natural weapons, space, and reach)...

[Keld Denar]

Right...which Mountain Rage then augments. Mountain Rage makes you large. If you are polymorphed into something that isn't already large, Mountain Rage will make you large.

So...Bear Warrior makes you a medium sized bear, which Mountain Rage then makes into a large bear. Period.

The only restriction on that is that multiple size increases (or reductions, I'd imagine) don't stack. You are capped by your base size, and all size changes are based on your base size. If you are a Goliath Barbarian1/Cleric9, and you cast Righteous Might to become large, then rage (with Mountain Rage) you'd still only be large. You wouldn't become huge, since neither effect can make you huge on it's own.

[sonofzeal]

Right...which Mountain Rage then augments. Mountain Rage makes you large. If you are polymorphed into something that isn't already large, Mountain Rage will make you large.

So...Bear Warrior makes you a medium sized bear, which Mountain Rage then makes into a large bear. Period.

The only restriction on that is that multiple size increases (or reductions, I'd imagine) don't stack. You are capped by your base size, and all size changes are based on your base size. If you are a Goliath Barbarian1/Cleric9, and you cast Righteous Might to become large, then rage (with Mountain Rage) you'd still only be large. You wouldn't become huge, since neither effect can make you huge on it's own.
You don't even need this restriction. Mountain Rage doesn't boost you a size category, it just flat out makes you Large. If you manifested an augmented Expansion and went to Huge, and then activated Mountain Rage, you'd go down a size category. Funny little wording there.

[Cog]

Bear Form (Su): A bear warrior can transform into a bear (similar to the polymorph spell) while in a rage or frenzy.
Bear Form modifies the base Rage ability. You Rage, and then have the option to make that Rage affected by your Bear Form ability. Mountain Rage increases your size from medium to large, and then Bear Form sets your size to whatever's appropriate for the bear you've chosen. This means you get less benefit from Mountain Rage, but you still get the extra strength out of it.

[Keld Denar]

You apply things that affect you in the most beneficial order. Thus, if Bear Warrior and Mountain Rage both affect you at the same time, you can opt to apply Bear Warrior first, then apply Mountain Rage to become large.

Thats the rules.

[Cog]

You apply things that affect you in the most beneficial order. Thus, if Bear Warrior and Mountain Rage both affect you at the same time, you can opt to apply Bear Warrior first, then apply Mountain Rage to become large.

Thats the rules.
That's the rule when order is otherwise unclear. However, these two abilities don't affect you at the same time. The Bear Shape ability specifically comes after the Rage ability according to its own text, as quoted above.

[Keld Denar]

Even IF they didn't affect you at the same time (you rage and become a large bear, simple), you ARE under the effects of both at the same time. When that happens, you apply them in the order that is most beneficial. The example cited is a creature with the [Cold] subtype being affected by Resistance to Fire. The [Cold] subtype is ALWAYS active, due to being racial. Thus, by your reading, the creature should multiply fire damage first THEN subtract the fire damage from the spell. This is not the case in that example though. The [Cold] subtype creature can reduce the fire damage and THEN multiply the remaining damage. In light of that example, your theory doesn't hold water.

What do you have against this?

[Cog]

The change in size provided by either ability is not ongoing - they change your size once, and that change lasts for a duration. Mountain Range does not make you large anew every moment of the rage's duration; it makes you large when you activate it, and then lasts for the duration. After you have entered the rage, you can then call upon Bear Form, which similarly sets your size. You are already benefiting from the size increase of Mountain Rage, and can't then choose to apply it again.

Here's a closer example than yours. A raging, and so large, goliath barbarian is hit by a Reduce Person spell*. Can the Goliath choose to apply the Reduce Person size reduction first, and then have his Mountain Rage set him back to Large size?

The difference from your example is that it actually is two separate abilities - resistance and vulnerability - while here both abilities are affecting a single thing. As I recall, though, that subtypes example comes from the FAQ rather than the books. I'm not inclined to give it very much priority, unless I'm mistaken on the source.

*Yes, technically monstrous humanoids aren't vulnerable to those. If it makes you feel better, he's a human who took the Stoneblessed class first.

[Keld Denar]

Why wouldn't he? Lots of things have unanticipated side effects. If a side effect of Mountain Rage means that the character can't be affected by Reduce Person, then so be it?

And you can discount the FAQ all you want. It doesn't conflict with RAW, and in this case sets a valuable precident upon which quite a few other rulings are based. I know the FAQ has a certain rap, but as long as it isn't directly contradicting RAW, why wouldn't you use it?

What other precident do you have to go on? Less than I do.

[Cog]

Okay, a more explicit reason why the example doesn't apply: it's about two entirely separate abilities, energy vulnerability and energy resistance. They both sit side by side happily, because they're two entirely different numbers, and it's not until the creature is attacked that they come up. Whether you have resistance and gain vulnerability, or have vulnerability and gain resistance, the result is that you have both.

The order of operations here is very clear, though, and a creature only has one size. Either you become medium and then large, or you become large and then medium. Unlike the example you gave, the order of operation has an impact on the result. Fortunately, Complete Warrior gave us a way to decide which is right; it tells us the order to apply them in.

Precedent doesn't matter. It's right there in the Bear Form ability.

[AtomicKitKat]

Just out of curiosity, what if you had both Rage and Frenzy, and you activated Bear Rage on both?:smallbiggrin:

[Dingle]

I doubt they'd stack, same source and all...
but you might be able to combine bear with one of them

[AtomicKitKat]

I doubt they'd stack, same source and all...
but you might be able to combine bear with one of them

I guess, but I had the funny idea of a Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker activating Brown Bear Rage and Dire Bear Frenzy, essentially becoming a Dire Bear but with the added Brown Bear bonuses.:smallwink: Reminds me, now I have to go look up the Bearsark from Deities and Demigods.

[JamesW]

Wow did not mean to spark up such a huge debate. But I'm glad so many people are interested in helping out! ^_^

Alright, so here is what I have then.

Str: 18, Dex: 12, Con: 16, Int: 12, Wis: 12, Cha: 14 (after Goliath Modifiers)

I like this stat line a lot better because Instead of spending +5 bonuses from other stats for +2 bonus on str I get those other bonuses and they will help my character throughout his life. Also, in order to get 14 dex after modifiers I would need to originally put dex at 16 because Goliath's have -2 dex.

lvl 1: Goliath Barbarian(racial sub), Power Attack(level 1 bonus feat)
lvl 2: Fighter, Great Fortitude(level 1 fighter feat)
lvl 3: Fighter, Extra Rage(lvl 3 bonus feat) Improved Unarmed Strike(lvl 2 fighter feat)
lvl 4: Barbarian (mainly for the uncanny dodge and d12 HD), +1 Str (stat boost)
lvl 5: Fist of the Forest
lvl 6: Fist of the Forest (Leadership(lvl 6 bonus feat) - Collect my gaggle of bardic wenches to spread the word of Meadow Watcher)
lvl 7: Fist of the Forest
lvl 8: Bear Warrior, +1Str which will give me 20 Str base now. Black Bear form + Mountainous Rage gives me +10 Str so I'll have 30 Str at level 8 with no magic items.

I am still trying to decide if I take 5 or 10 levels in Bear Warrior. Though, I'll be playing this character from ground up. Which is why I'm putting more stock into stats above 10 and never 8. I picture my character more like the main character from Braveheart. An intelligent berserker that likes to live off the land and not get involved in the evils that come with cities. Which led me to the decision of also wanting to be a druid. But, perhaps its not the best class to mix in on this character.

Anyone know any other prestige classes that would benefit my character after level 12 if I stick with bear warrior for only 5 levels?

Perhaps Frenzied Berserker. I can Rage, shift to a bear and frenzy. The frenzy rules state that it stacks with the rage bonuses.

So...

I'll be a large raged frenzied bear. Good god. However, I don't think I'll have the required feats to do this by level 12, unless I don't take leadership and pick up Cleave at 6, Intimidating Rage at 9 and Destructive Rage at 12. At which point that leaves 8 levels for frenzied Berserker and its bag of goodies.

Another thing I am really getting confused about is that Keld mentioned that Bear Warriors don't change into bears. But when I read the skill it states that they do transform into bears. Am I missing something? Was Keld refering to the Feral Trance provided by FotF?

Is the transformation into a bear a free action? Or does it take the entire round to perform?

When I initiate the Rage/Bear Form/Frenzy is the duration determined by my unmodified con bonus? Or the bonus after I turn into a bear?

Man... I'm really hung up on that leadership feat... though I suppose I could just hire some bard to follow me around. Hmmm...

Well I'm almost sold on the Frenzied Berserker, anyone have any ideas on a better class selection for this beast of a character?

Thanks in advance!

[Keld Denar]

When I said that it doesn't change you into a bear, I ment stat wise. If you look at similar abilities such as Wildshape or Polymorph, they actually REPLACE your ability scores with those of the creature you turn into. Bear Warrior is different. While your form changes, you retain your own Str/Dex/Con scores which are augmented by the bonuses listed for Bear Warrior.

You know, with your 14 Cha, if you could get a 1 point boost, you'd qualify for Imperious Command (Drow of the Underdark). Its a neat little feat that, when you indimidate someone, they have to cower for one round THEN are shaken for one round, rather than simply be shaken for one round. Then you take Intimidating Rage from CWarrior, allowing you to make a free intimidate check when you rage. RAWR! You just made everyone cower under your beary-scary might.

Also, hulking out in Bear Form is a free action, just like rage. Any time you can rage, you can Bear-shift. The duration, like any rage duration, is always determined by your CURRENT Con. If your Con goes up or down, you gain or lose rounds of duration. Example, you have a base Con of 16, for a +3 bonus. When you rage, you get +4 Con, which bumps your bonus up to +5. That means you get 8 total rounds of rage. If a wizard casts Bear's Endurance on you while you are raging, you can maintain the rage for an extra 2 rounds. If you are struck by a wraith and fail your save and lose say...6 Con, your duration would be reduced by 3 rounds. If at any time the number of rounds you've been raging is equal to or greater than the adjusted duration of your rage, you immediately stop raging and suffer all of the penalities therein.

Did you get a chance to look at Frost Rager? It has a lot of synergy with Fist of the Forest, which is nice.

[faceroll]

If you have access to Unearthed Arcana or the SRD, I recommend using some flaws to pick up extra feats, and the passive way monk in place of fighter levels. It requires alignment ping-ponging, and is cheesy, but you pick up combat expertise and improved trip requirement free, meaning you can dump intelligence. Then you pick up the knockdown feat, which is awesome. Every time you do 10+ damage, you get a free trip attempt. If your trip succeeds, you get another attack against that opponent.

I would also use the whirling frenzy variant in place of the normal rage, which gets you an extra attack and +2 AC instead of +4 con, -2 AC, and +2 on will saves.

Extra Rage and Reckless Rage are another couple of great feats for a rage based build.

[Greenish]

(I’m thinking about druid for the animal companion)There's Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) which gives you a pet that scales with character level.

If you have access to Unearthed Arcana or the SRD, I recommend using some flaws to pick up extra feats, and the passive way monk in place of fighter levels.Nah, don't delay your entry to FotF and BW, they're too fun.

You can trade your Uncanny Dodge for Imp. Trip with the wolf totem barbarian variant without needing int or Combat Expertise. There are also a couple of feats aimed for barbarians that qualify you for Imp. Trip and give bonuses to tripping.

[JamesW]

Wow... Frostrager looks like fun.. but I need to get the feat Frozen Berserker.

Hrmm. I think I like Frostrager a lot more than I like Frenzied Berserker. I like the option to control my rage and I wont be exhausted after the fight, just fatigued. The added bonus to AC is nice too. With the ac from FotF and Bear Form my AC should be up in the 20s. Which I think is nice.. but I have not played in high levels for a long time.

Does the unarmed damage from frostrage boost my current unarmed damage? Or since my current unarmed damage would be better than the frostrage unarmed damage would I just use my current damage?

Also, Rend is really really cool. You had mentioned it earlier and I had not taken a look at it yet. But I do really like it.

I also really like the wild cohort option as well. But I wanted my minions to be bards and spread the word of my bada**ery throughout the land. I didn't really want them to do to much in combat. After all, I'm the glory hound. I don't need them outshining me with a lucky roll.

Then again, this is something I can take in my later levels as well. Hit up 4 levels of Frenzied Berserker and 5 levels of Frostrager to cap my character at level 20.

I will look into that wolf totem variant for the berserker. Getting Imp Trip could come in handy.

Also, I wont have an extra feat for Imperious Command until level 15 or 18. Which will give me plenty of time to add +1 to my Cha to meet the requirement for that. I just don't see how I will be able to get it before that.

Ohhhh and I can't use flaws to get extra feats. The DM does not allow it. I still need to check if he will allow me to reduce my LA at level 3 so I can level at normal exp from then on.

Again, thank you everyone for all the helpful advice!

[Keld Denar]

Unfortuantely, as I read it, the Frost Rager UAS damage increases won't affect you, as you'll already have higher UAS damage. FotF only increases your UAS damage in size if you are a monk, which you won't be, otherwise it just sets it to a given amount.

Instead of 4 levels of Frenzied Berzerker, look into 4 levels of Warshaper. Frenzy is pretty nice, but tough to control, and you won't be benefitting hugely from the PA boost. Warshaper increases the size of all of your natural weapons (including your UAS) by one size, gives you complete immunity to crits and sneak attacks, and gives you another +4 Str and Con (which then adds to your AC). Good stuff.