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Theo Hammond
2011-02-23, 08:32 AM
So i'm in a relatively high-feat low-magic D&D 3.5 game at around 11th level, so most people are being hit most of the time in melee now. Eyes are being cast to 'what i'll play if / when i die' and i was trying to think of something that might actually have a bit of AC on him, play it a little stronger on the defence than the offence.

Coming in as a straight Fighter at this level (no ToB classes allowed, just Core with Complete books) i'd be getting 17 feats (due to how our campaign works, inc Fighters getting 1 per level in this game) if i went non-human. So i was thinking i can make a fair old crack at both shield combat and TWF trees.

I was thinking that with Oversized TWF i could have an Extreme Hvy Shield (Races of Stone i think) in each hand, with the relevant Exotic Proficiency of course, and thus have the off-hand shield count as light. So both fitted with spikes and can then TWF away on the standard -2/-2 and go down the feat trees from there.

Even without magic (Magic Vestments is a common combat buff) i'd be getting +3AC from each one (so long as i remember Improved Shield Bash), +4AC with Shield Specialisation = +8AC before armour. Then there is TW Defence rout for another few points. I reckon with a medium armour and high dex in the mix i should be looking around AC30 pre-magic (so at least 5pts above the next best PC).

However its not a huge amount of damage on the offensive end, especially if i prioritise Dex over Str (its a 25pt buy-in and Hvy Armours are v rare). The game is also quite low on the magic item handouts as well, generally i'd be looking at a couple of +2s allowed and then another couple of things totalling no more than 4-5k. We do get to ask for a 'Special Thing' though, like a small unique item or house-ruling, that could be used to help (for example my Druid got Spontaneous Curing). Getting +4/+6 for the Focus->Spec->Mastery->Grt Focus->Grt Spec(12th) is a bit steep feat-wise but, if needs must, i can build that in.

The thought of even looking at Shield Bash whilst also using two shields as two melee weapons made my head hurt :)

Any thoughts? Is this even a legal build (if only a little illegal i should be able to use my 'Special Thing' to allow it, so long as its not broken)? Would Powerful Build (a Goliath say) allow for two large shields, and thus a little more damage?

So what do you reckon - has it got legs?

Gullintanni
2011-02-23, 08:42 AM
However its not a huge amount of damage on the offensive end, especially if i prioritise Dex over Str (its a 25pt buy-in and Hvy Armours are v rare). The game is also quite low on the magic item handouts as well, generally i'd be looking at a couple of +2s allowed and then another couple of things totalling no more than 4-5k. We do get to ask for a 'Special Thing' though, like a small unique item or house-ruling, that could be used to help (for example my Druid got Spontaneous Curing). Getting +4/+6 for the Focus->Spec->Mastery->Grt Focus->Grt Spec(12th) is a bit steep feat-wise but, if needs must, i can build that in.

The thought of even looking at Shield Bash whilst also using two shields as two melee weapons made my head hurt :)

Any thoughts? Is this even a legal build (if only a little illegal i should be able to use my 'Special Thing' to allow it, so long as its not broken)? Would Powerful Build (a Goliath say) allow for two large shields, and thus a little more damage?

So what do you reckon - has it got legs?

This build works pretty well, but you have to do it properly. Imp. Shield Bash is necessary, as you noted. You want spiked shields and the Bashing armor enhancement on your armor. It's a +1 enhancement. Including the +1 AC base enhancement require, you come in at a cool +2 on each shield, and you're bashing as a shield 3 size categories larger than what you ought to be.
2d6 per shield IIRC.

It goes double mileage as well, because in addition to increasing the size of your shield by 2, it also grants the shield a +1 weapon enhancement bonus. In a low magic game, this is an invaluable trait, I would think.

Mechanically speaking, it's totally sound. A shield bash is no different than a regular attack (except that in this case without the feat, you lose the AC bonus it provides). You can, if you so desire, use a shield as a primary weapon.

Keep in mind that multiple bonuses of the same type don't stack, so two shields only grants you the shield bonus from one, so you'd get three AC from one shield, shield specialization from one...etc. You don't get to double up on all of these, sadly. TWDefense also grants a shield bonus IIRC so it won't stack with the Shield Bonus provided by your shield.

Human Paragon 3
2011-02-23, 08:52 AM
Unfortunately, your second shield will not increase your AC. They both grant shield bonuses to AC, and bonuses with the same type do not stack. If your DM will allow it though, make sure you take the good shield feats from PHB II.

Person Man's thorough guide to shields (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123630)may also be of some use.

Theo Hammond
2011-02-23, 09:13 AM
*slaps head*

Of course, two shields = two shield bonuses = NO STACKING NAUGHTY BOY!

Then with the TWF feats being a shield bonus as well...curses!

Could potentially ask for my 'Special Thing' to be allowed both shield to count (not with the TWF defences as well, just with each other), but that might be just a bit too tasty.

Still, nearly had it!

Amphetryon
2011-02-23, 09:17 AM
RAW, shields also have unfortunately restrictive verbiage that essentially *always* makes them off-hand weapons. This is easy enough to work out with your DM, but does require a houserule or, at least, a more generous interpretation of RAW.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-02-23, 09:19 AM
Isn't there a a feat, agile shield fighter, that is essentially TWF but for shields, without the horrendous Dex requirements.

pilvento
2011-02-23, 09:20 AM
i know is not the same but u can refluff a weapon from complete warrior.

i dont remember its name, but its something like a gnome/dwarf blade shield or someting... gives both ac and counts as a light weapon.

Darth Stabber
2011-02-23, 09:27 AM
Isn't there a a feat, agile shield fighter, that is essentially TWF but for shields, without the horrendous Dex requirements.

Yes it requires proficiency and sheild specialization, and i believe improved shield bash. But there are no additional feats for additional attacks (like ImpTWF). The feat is in phb 2. There is also a feat that lets you make AoO while Fighting defensively, or on total defense, without penalty. And a feat that factors your shield bonus in to touch ac. They really tried to make shields viable in phb2. They still failed, but atleast they tried. In retrospect printing shocktrooper in CWar was the last coffin nail on sword and board in 3.5.

Darrin
2011-02-23, 09:42 AM
*slaps head*

Of course, two shields = two shield bonuses = NO STACKING NAUGHTY BOY!


Make one shield out of riverine (+4000 GP, Stormwrack). This converts half of the shield/enhancement bonus into a deflection bonus. An extreme shield +1, for example, would give you a +2 deflection bonus. And that does stack with your other shield.

Human Paragon 3
2011-02-23, 09:45 AM
That would cost ever so slightly more than a ring of protection +2.

Unless you can get a big AC bonus on it through magic vestment, making it's AC bonus at least +6 (+8 would be better), this is not worth it. Better to use a defending weapon in one hand.

You could do a shield and parrying dagger with the defending enhancement, actually. That would be somewhat better.

EDIT: A +3 or 5 reverine shield in one hand would also totally obviate the other shield unless it also had a large enhancement on it.