Shouldn't a whip be a simple weapon?

[cowsay]

Shouldn't a whip be a simple weapon? I realize that the rules are to the contrary, but it seems that the whip is simple enough. What does it really take to be a simple weapon?

[Sillycomic]

I'm assuming you're talking about 3.5.

The whip is a 15 ft reach weapon that allows you to trip and disarm at a distance. Plus it's finesse-able.

Aside from that have you ever tried to use a whip? Those things are complicated and they take a lot of time and skill to work properly (hence spending a feat to do so)

Most simple weapons are spears and clubs. You just pick up a big hunk of metal and stab at people or bash their heads in. There's nothing complicated about that. It's very simple!

[Master_Rahl22]

I'm not sure what the actual criteria are, but have you actually tried using a whip? Spear = Stick the pointy end in things. Mace = Hit them with the heavy end. Whip = Kinda flick your wrist and put exactly the right motion on it so the tip hits where you want it to. If that's what it's based on, whips certainly aren't simple to use.

[Starbuck_II]

I'm assuming you're talking about 3.5.

The whip is a 15 ft reach weapon that allows you to trip and disarm at a distance.

Aside from that have you ever tried to use a whip? Those things are complicated and they take a lot of time and skill to work properly (hence spending a feat to do so)

Most simple weapons are spears and clubs. You just pick up a big hunk of metal and stab at people or bash their heads in. There's nothing complicated about that. It's very simple!
Clubs are a stick you pick up to bash people (reaspon why no cost).
I submit Greatclub. Also a hunk of meta/wood to bash people.
Whip should be simple (nonlethal). Whip dagger worth exotic Proficiency though.

[Sillycomic]

I would say if you took away all of the awesome goodies that came with a whip... sure you could make it a simple weapon.

No 15 foot reach. No disarming bonus and no trip attempts then yes, it's a simple weapon.

But are you telling me you can just hand someone a whip and they'll know exactly how to use it?

They'll be able to weild the thing as well as someone using a club or a spear or a dagger the way it's supposed to be used?


Greatclub is a martial weapons because it's a club the size of a halfling! It's big and weighty, hence not anyone can just pick it up and start wielding it properly.

[Daftendirekt]

I would say if you took away all of the awesome goodies that came with a whip... sure you could make it a simple weapon.


Even then, I'd say martial. As people have said, it takes skill to swing a whip in the precise fashion to get it to strike where you want it to. There is nothing simple about it. "Simple" weapon implies any shmuck can pick it up and kill somebody with it; smash somebody's head in with a piece of wood, stab them with a pointy stick, or stab them with a smaller metal stick.

[Roderick_BR]

(...)
Aside from that have you ever tried to use a whip without hitting yourself with it?
(...)
Just added some text for emphasis.
Same thing with nunchucks.

[Sillycomic]

I grew up on a farm and we had a whip. I tried it a few times.

Then I hit myself with it.

Yeah... never tried that again.

Whips are dangerous!

[Darth Stabber]

I have some experience fencing (rapiers are a martial weapon), and have been in a couple barfights involving pool cues (clubs are a simple weapon). I have to say that a whip seems a fair shake harder than a rapier. For a whip (not a lash) to effectively harm people you need to crack it right on their skin. I promise you that most "proficient" fencers don't have the ability to line up a rapier as efficiently as one must line up a whip strike. Now if you are just using the whip for "other" purposes... you don't have to be precise, and you target generally isn't moving, and you aren't trying to kill your target, so actually dealing damage isn't the goal. Causing pain is easier than causing damage. Now a lash is easier, but that doesn't reach 15 ft and is made to punish protagonists in mel gibson movies, not attack an armed warrior.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

I think the OP is thinking of a scourge rather than a whip.

[Tvtyrant]

There should be a cat-o-9 tails though. Then make it a normal whip with a really high crit rate.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

A cat shouldn't have reach, though. Might still trip, but I see disarming with one as unlikely.

[grimbold]

I'm assuming you're talking about 3.5.

The whip is a 15 ft reach weapon that allows you to trip and disarm at a distance. Plus it's finesse-able.

Aside from that have you ever tried to use a whip? Those things are complicated and they take a lot of time and skill to work properly (hence spending a feat to do so)

Most simple weapons are spears and clubs. You just pick up a big hunk of metal and stab at people or bash their heads in. There's nothing complicated about that. It's very simple!
this
in particular i have learned from experience that working a whip is really hard
it goes flaccid easily

[DeltaEmil]

To be a simple weapon in 3.5, it must not have too good benefits or be able to confer an advantage. For example, it must have a mediocre damage die, quite a low critical hit multiplier or no critical threat range improvement, no bonus to any other special attack option, and so on.

Now, the whip sucks terribad for damage and criticals, and enemies are immune against it if they wear armor or have a natural armor bonus.
However, it has reach 15 feet (so that you can strike from safety and perhaps even use a full-attack to make the following good options), you can make trip attempts with the whip (making the enemy prone so that they must waste a move action to stand up), you get a bonus to the attack roll for disarm attempts (which against enemies with weapons means that they must waste their move action to pick it up and then get an Attack of Opportunity in their face), and you can apply the Weapon Finesse feat on it, making it a somewhat viable choice for characters focused on using their dexterity.

The damage is laughable and is outright useless once you fight anything that's not a naked humanoid or a rat.

But it's a fine weapon to knock enemies prone or making them lose their weapon, which in most cases is their main source of melee damage, without getting an Attack of Opportunity for doing that stuff in the first place.

So, by this reasoning, it's a good weapon (at least in theory), and therefore should cost the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat.

Notice that the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat is not meant simply for foreign weapons from another land with an exotic look, but for weapons that ought to give you some nice advantage.

In practice however, most weapons that require the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat are simply bad and not worth using them, like bastard swords (whoop di whoo, you can now roll an 1d10 instead of an 1d8 with one hand without a -4 to hit penalty).

Whips are kinda iffy in that regard. They're actually nice to have in most cases, although they're not all-so-powerful like the stupd spiked chain.

[Darth Stabber]

I would consider a scourge/cat-o-9tails a flail for the puposes of game adjudication.

[Darth Stabber]

Also, a whip really isn't a weapon, it's really a combat tool to achieve non-damage things from 15ft. You need some source of damage to back it up. Yes it's great to use it to burn an opponents actions, but it's not for hitting people.

[arguskos]

I would consider a scourge/cat-o-9tails a flail for the puposes of game adjudication.
Why? They already exist. Scourges have been printed a number of times. The printing I am aware of off the top of my head is in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (though I believe it's been reprinted since then). It's a one-handed exotic weapon (that really shouldn't be) that deals 1d8 slashing damage, has x2 crit, can trip, and gains a +2 on disarms. It's pretty meh. Not really worth the feat, IMO.

[Eldan]

That's why you combine it with a one-handed melee weapon. You don't TWF, of course, but you trip and disarm enemies, then stab them when they actually reach you.

[LibraryOgre]

I cannot recall the details, but someone pointed out that most PHB weapons are based on a formula, with "points" used to improve them, and the number of points based on what kind of weapon it was.

Let me try to re-derive the numbers.

It was something like: Simple weapons have 1 points. Martial Weapons have 3 points. Exotic weapons have 5 points. It's not a perfect system, and a lot of exotic weapons break this rule; notably, the monk weapons).

Simple Light is 1d4 damage, with a 20 *2 critical and no special. You can use your one point to improve the damage die by one (light maces are d6 20*2), the threat range by one (daggers are d4 19-20 *2), the critical multiplier by 1 (punching daggers at d4 20*3), or get a special (spiked gauntlets are 1d4 20*2 that cannot be disarmed).

Simple One-handed is d6 damage, with 20*2 Critical. Specials seen here are beigger damage die (d8). Clubs seem to have the special "free", while shortspears get a decent range.

Something like that.

[Darth Stabber]

It's not a perfect system, and a lot of exotic weapons break this rule; notably, the monk weapons).
Emphasis mine

There is a simple solution to that inequality, being a monk weapon is worth points, because they are better than similarly stated weapons if you are a monk. Now the system weighs that more than it should, but there you go.

Also Spiked chain is worth like 20pts as per that system.

[Starbuck_II]

I cannot recall the details, but someone pointed out that most PHB weapons are based on a formula, with "points" used to improve them, and the number of points based on what kind of weapon it was.

Let me try to re-derive the numbers.

It was something like: Simple weapons have 1 points. Martial Weapons have 3 points. Exotic weapons have 5 points. It's not a perfect system, and a lot of exotic weapons break this rule; notably, the monk weapons).

Simple Light is 1d4 damage, with a 20 *2 critical and no special. You can use your one point to improve the damage die by one (light maces are d6 20*2), the threat range by one (daggers are d4 19-20 *2), the critical multiplier by 1 (punching daggers at d4 20*3), or get a special (spiked gauntlets are 1d4 20*2 that cannot be disarmed).

Simple One-handed is d6 damage, with 20*2 Critical. Specials seen here are beigger damage die (d8). Clubs seem to have the special "free", while shortspears get a decent range.

Something like that.

But whips have 3 penalties:
Nonlethal
Can't damage
No reach.

That makes it martial I believe.

Look at spiked chain: similar to Whip but no penallties.


Emphasis mine

There is a simple solution to that inequality, being a monk weapon is worth points, because they are better than similarly stated weapons if you are a monk. No the system weighs that more than it should, but there you go.

Also Spiked chain is worth like 20pts as per that system.
20?

Speed Chains are 2 handed meaning damage should be 2d6, but it gains 1 point by lowering to 2d4.
Reach but also close is 2 point. Trip is 1 point. +2 disarm is 1 point. Weapon finesse is 1 point.
So we have spent 5 points. We have 1 point more. 1 point so not too costly?

[Chuckthedwarf]

Shouldn't a whip be a simple weapon? I realize that the rules are to the contrary, but it seems that the whip is simple enough. What does it really take to be a simple weapon?

Whip is a pretty complicated weapon and mechanically speaking, it gives too many advantages to be a simple weapon.

On the other hand, commoners should be able to use whips to herd animals or whatever. But then again, if you aren't using it for combat, proficiency might not matter as much - I mean, you do not need proficiency in shovel to dig or in a kitchen knife to slice some tomahtoes =p

[Hyfigh]

I could see running a whip as a simple weapon that deals it's non-lethal damage.
When used as a martial weapon (requiring more skill) they ought to deal lethal damage, though, unless the opponent is wearing anything heavier than light armor. If the opponent has heavier armor, the damage reverts to non-lethal.

A skillfully placed whip strike will certainly cause a laceration and when it had been used as a form of punishment was known to kill people.

[Starbuck_II]

I could see running a whip as a simple weapon that deals it's non-lethal damage.
When used as a martial weapon (requiring more skill) they ought to deal lethal damage, though, unless the opponent is wearing anything heavier than light armor. If the opponent has heavier armor, the damage reverts to non-lethal.

A skillfully placed whip strike will certainly cause a laceration and when it had been used as a form of punishment was known to kill people.

Except in D&D where everyone can be immune to whips killing you.

[arguskos]

I cannot recall the details, but someone pointed out that most PHB weapons are based on a formula, with "points" used to improve them, and the number of points based on what kind of weapon it was.
I have the actual numbers, since I saved them last time I saw the thing. The formatting bit the dust awhile ago, but the numbers are solid, copied straight off this site. The idea was that you had 10 points to buy stuff with, and everything had a point cost. Not everything was exact (I think greatswords were a hair over, spiked chains were over, and something else was too IIRC).

Whips, using this, cost 0 exotic+0 d4 (or worse) damage+0 20/x2 crit+1 slashing+2 (one-handed)+1 disarm+2 reach and threaten+2 trip w/+2 to trip+1 finessable+1 other powers (for 15-ft reach, IIRC), for a total of 10. The idea was that the system generally makes everything within a point or two. I don't recall the precise source though, sorry. I sure didn't make it.

TRAINING COST
Exotic 0
Martial 2
Simple 3

DAMAGE DIE COST
d4 0
d6 1
d8/2d4 2
d10 3
d12/2d6 4

EASE OF USE COST
Two-handed 0
One-handed 2
Light 3

DAMAGE TYPE COST
Piercing 0
Slashing 1
Bludgeoning 1

CRIT MULTIPLIER COST
20/x2 0
20/x3 1
19-20/x2 1
18-20/x2 2
20/x4 2
19-20/x3 3
18-20/x3 4
18-20/x4 5

SPECIAL COST
Thrown 10 ft 1
Thrown 20 ft 2
+2 to one skill 1
+2 to disarm 1
+4 to one skill 2
reach 1
reach+threaten adjacent squares 2
trip 1
trip w/+2 to trip 2
set vs charge 1
finessable weapon 1
also functions as shield 2
monk weapon 2
double weapon 2 (build each half separately)
other specials 1 or 2 (varies with power)

[Zherog]

I don't recall the precise source though, sorry. I sure didn't make it.

The source, as I recall, was on the WotC forums way back in the day (03-05 time frame), by a poster named chonjurer.

[arguskos]

The source, as I recall, was on the WotC forums way back in the day (03-05 time frame), by a poster named chonjurer.
1. Damn, you remembered that?! :smalleek:

2. Damn, that's old in the community. I got it from a dude on this forum who posted it like last year. Guess it's just been kicking around, eh?

[randomhero00]

I've used whips. They definitely aren't simple.

[Zherog]

1. Damn, you remembered that?! :smalleek:

Yeah, and yet there are days I can't tell you what I had for dinner the previous night. Go figure. :smallwink:

Chonjurer - along with a few other folks from the WotC forums back then - had a huge impact on how I looked at the math behind the game. While a lot of things have faded into the back of my mind, a few items -- including this one -- specifically stick with me.


2. Damn, that's old in the community. I got it from a dude on this forum who posted it like last year. Guess it's just been kicking around, eh?

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to learn that it's undergone revision and updates since then, to be honest. All good ideas can be built upon and expanded. So it's certainly possible that the version you saw and the version I remember are related, but not the same thing. But even still, I think it's a very cool concept, which is why it stuck with me.

[John Campbell]

In RL, I can pretty plausibly claim proficiency in all simple and martial, plus at least EWP (bastard sword). The best I can say about whips, though, is that I don't usually hit myself with them. Hit what I'm aiming at... also not so much. They're both tricksy to use and different than most other weapons.

[Gnome Alone]

In RL, I can pretty plausibly claim proficiency in all simple and martial, plus at least EWP (bastard sword). The best I can say about whips, though, is that I don't usually hit myself with them. Hit what I'm aiming at... also not so much. They're both tricksy to use and different than most other weapons.

Wait, you can use a bastard sword? I'm no weapon enthusiast but I didn't even know they still made those things. Color me impressed.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Plus there's the fact that when a character takes EWP to use a whip, the character plans on using the whip as a weapon in combat, something whips generally weren't made to do. Whips are used to spur on livestock (or people if you're particularly cruel). Even in instances where a whip is used on a person, they're usually not wearing armor, so that's what makes it hurt. Simply put, you have to REALLY know what you're doing if you plan on using a whip as an actual weapon, and the average fighter simply doesn't get that kind of training at the military academy. Heck, even Indiana Jones probably had to spend years of practice to do all those fancy tricks he does, and he seems to use it more as an impromptu grappling hook than a weapon, generally using his fists in close combat and guns in other situations.

[Daftendirekt]

Yeah, really, as much as it sucks that any armor at all makes whips useless and using them in melee provokes, it makes sense.

1) Picture yourself in some good sturdy leather. Somebody slaps a piece of leather against that leather. Even expertly done, it's not going to hurt YOU. Just the leather. You'll feel the impact, but you won't actually be injured by it.

2.) You're swinging this long, snaking thing around so you can aim it properly. That would leave you wide open for an attack by somebody prepared for it.

[Shademan]

to answer OP: no.

now that we got that out of the way, why are maces and morningstars simple, but hammers and axes are not?
also, flails require special training to not brain yourself...why inst that exotic?

[Maeglin_Dubh]

In real life, I would call a sling an exotic weapon. It's way harder to use than a bow.

I use both.

EDIT: Also, flails were a peasant weapon, like bills and forks and bows. Not really all that exotic.

[Kerghan]

Shouldn't a whip be a simple weapon? I realize that the rules are to the contrary, but it seems that the whip is simple enough.

I'm sure Young Indiana Jones from the Last Crusade would disagree.

[Gnoman]

A skillfully placed whip strike will certainly cause a laceration and when it had been used as a form of punishment was known to kill people.

The cat of nine tails, which is by far a nastier weapon than the whip in question, required as many as 1000 lashes against an immoblized target to be lethal.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

The cat of nine tails, which is by far a nastier weapon than the whip in question, required as many as 1000 lashes against an immoblized target to be lethal.

And as few as a dozen.

[cowsay]

In real life, I would call a sling an exotic weapon.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. I didn't realize that this would be such a popular topic. But I'm glad to have so much input.

Honestly, I have used both whips and slings (been a rancher and natural hunter outdoors-man). My original query arose from a comparison of the whip to the sling. I thought, "hell, if the sling is simple, so is the whip." It is very easy to manufacture an effective whip or sling. Both require some experience to use well, but, in my experience, no more than using a sword (which I think is FAR more dangerous to the user and those near him). In my experience, I've never injured myself or anyone else (if you don't count livestock) using a whip. I have had a few errant moments with a sling (both whirling-sling and sling-shot), including hitting myself in the head and back with the sling or having the flexible sling-shot vine/cord hit me in the face.

The morning star, sickle, and dagger are far more difficult manufacture, even if you don't use metal. I would also contend, that when fighting or practicing with them, it is far more likely to injure yourself and just as easy to injure your allies.

All this said, I really took "simple" to mean easy to make and readily available to the masses. Someone without many resources could manufacture an effective whip or sling with no money. But I see there are many ways to interpret simple.

[DeltaEmil]

Whips are simple enough to create, costing only 1 gp. But the price is irrelevant for the weapon category it should belong. That's where combat effectiveness counts. Simple weapons are average-quality armament that a not-all-too combat proficient character like a wizard, sorcerer, cleric or ranger ought to be able to use. Martial weapons are high-quality kill instruments that are generally a lot better and should be used by professional combatants.
Exotic weapons are (at least in theory) supposed to be even better than martial weapons, providing a substantial benefit so great that it would need to cost a feat to balance it.
Whips belong to the Exotic Weapon Proficiencies because of their combat bonus. Of course, the low price is actually also somehow incorporated into the reason if it should be an exotic weapon or not.
That's what the game designers thought who created the weapon table for 3.x.

[Hyfigh]

Except in D&D where everyone can be immune to whips killing you.

Considering that this is a world wherein longswords weigh 4lbs, and heroe's can be ressurected with magic, I hardly see how this is relavent to my point... :smallsigh:

[Xyk]

Considering that this is a world wherein longswords weigh 4lbs, and heroe's can be ressurected with magic, I hardly see how this is relavent to my point... :smallsigh:


Despite frequent claims to the contrary, Medieval swords were indeed light, manageable, and on average weighed less than four pounds.

Source. (http://www.thearma.org/essays/weights.htm)

Edit: Oh! I thought you meant they must have been much heavier. I agree with you.

[Hyfigh]

Source. (http://www.thearma.org/essays/weights.htm)

Yes - this was the point I was making. A 4lbs longsword is rediculous. They were around 2lbs or less. I was indicating that my original post was a reflection of how whips work in RL to help back my reasoning for the mechanics I presented for in-game. The counter to my point was that the game allows people to avoid whip damage altogether. My question was what exactly this had to do with anything considering the world that allows for already-outrageous things to happen.

[BiblioRook]

It's always halarious how quick people are in real life about how 'easy' it is to us a whip. Show a group of freinds a whip and it's almost garanteed that at least one (if not all) will attempt to use it.
Just as likely, they will all fail to do so (some probably hurting themselves in the process).

I'ld like to say I can use one proficently, but even then... tentatively. This is also after 20 years of practice due to having a brother who beleves himself Indiana Jones Incarnate. How out of the two of use I was the one that was able to pick up the skill, I've never been able to figure out.

[dgnslyr]

Well, my explanation for why weapons are listed as heavier than they should be is because the weight reflects how much it encumbers you for purposes of carrying capacity, because there's no mechanic to show how tired you are from using a heavy weapon. So the extra few pounds includes a nice scabbard, a whetstone, and whatever else you need to keep your sword nice and pointy.

But lets not get sidetracked, shall we?

[Ravens_cry]

Yeah, you don't make a weapon of war for hundreds of years without getting good at it.
And OP? No, I don't see the whip as simple, far from it. You might be able to lash at someone, likely hitting yourself in the process, but that's not proficiency, that's desperation.

[Thurbane]

Shouldn't a whip be a simple weapon? I realize that the rules are to the contrary, but it seems that the whip is simple enough. What does it really take to be a simple weapon?
I know this has already been covered, but...seriously? A whip is notoriously hard to use effectively (IRL), and even so-called whip experts still manage to hurt themselves quite baldy on occasion when performing exhibitions.

Compare to say a club, morning star or spear...all of which are simple enough for a caveman to wield effectively.

The big offender, IMHO, is the great club. Why exactly is it Martial? :smalleek:

[BiblioRook]

The big offender, IMHO, is the great club. Why exactly is it Martial? :smalleek:

I can see the great club getting a step up from being simple. Using a great club probably isn't like swinging a baseball bat around, after it gets to be acertain size and/or weight you aren't so much swinging it as you are efectively guiding it's momentum, which could probably be tricky to do if you weren't experenced indoing so.

[Thurbane]

Fun fact: a medium sized character with no martial proficiency is more effective swinging around a large morning star than a medium greatclub.

Med Greatclub - damage 1d10 B, -4 non-proficiency penalty to hit.
Lge Morning Star - damage 2d6 B/P, -2 size penalty to hit.

:smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

[Starbuck_II]

Yes - this was the point I was making. A 4lbs longsword is rediculous. They were around 2lbs or less. I was indicating that my original post was a reflection of how whips work in RL to help back my reasoning for the mechanics I presented for in-game. The counter to my point was that the game allows people to avoid whip damage altogether. My question was what exactly this had to do with anything considering the world that allows for already-outrageous things to happen.

But is the damage nonlethal? Is not, than it isn't a "whip" but a whip dagger.

[Jjeinn-tae]

The big offender, IMHO, is the great club. Why exactly is it Martial? :smalleek:

Weight mainly, while not the most accurate source, ever seen high-level fighting games? Everyone who's doing good is using a fast character, for if you go for power you're so telegraphed that the other player's just going to hit you with something quick and interrupt you.

The same applies in real life when people are skilled. Think of how quickly you can swing a two pound sword compared to an 8 pound chunk of wood and metal. If they're paying attention, they're going to cut or stab you as you try and swing that around (as most that weight is at the other end from where you hold it). It's also the same reason you don't see a great hammer in the weapons section, if your weapon doesn't have spikes or and edge, it relies on weight for the hurting, it makes you much less survivable swinging that around, and much more tired as well.

[Sillycomic]

I feel like the whip is the monk of weapon selection.

There are other options that deal more damage.

It has a bunch of different abilities tied into it that don't necessarily mesh together.

People keep saying there's a better version out there. (for the whip it's spiked chain, for monk it's swordsage)

Oh, plus Giacomo will come out at some point and tell us all how whips are vastly superior to spiked chains thanks to UMD shenanigans.

Plus, people hurt themselves when they play monks all the time (mostly pride but an occasional fat lip from cheesy builds works as well)

[Shademan]

In real life, I would call a sling an exotic weapon. It's way harder to use than a bow.

I use both.

EDIT: Also, flails were a peasant weapon, like bills and forks and bows. Not really all that exotic.

yeah but didnt they use what in D&D is called the greatflail? I would be impressed if you hit yourself in the head with such a flail, but the one handed flail...

[Darth Stabber]

I would say the whip is only included for character who wear studded leather and have mustaches (complete the look).

[Maeglin_Dubh]

D&D Weapons and those of the real world don't always line up properly...

For instance, IRL the falchion is a one-handed weapon, the longsword is a hand-and-a-half weapon, bucklers are a punch shield, and chainmail is a misnomer.

[Ravens_cry]

chainmail is a misnomer.

Well, not so much a misnomer as a redundancy. Platemail, that is a misnomer.

[Gnoman]

And as few as a dozen.

Have a reference for that? Back when they were used for punishment, 12 dozen was common, and on some ships a dozen lashes were given to whoever was last on deck for his watch.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Have a reference for that? Back when they were used for punishment, 12 dozen was common, and on some ships a dozen lashes were given to whoever was last on deck for his watch.

While it's true that they were used that way, remember what these things could do.

They were capable of literally removing skin in ragged strips. These are some nasty pieces of equipment.
On ship, people were generally sluiced down with saltwater after a flogging, to clean it out. But infection and blood loss were still a risk.

I'm not saying that people commonly died from twelve strokes of the cat. I just wanted to remind everyone that a cat is a pretty nasty weapon that can do a lot of serious damage, rather than a piece of sharp paper you can slash someone with 1000 times before they die.

[Jayabalard]

now that we got that out of the way, why are maces and morningstars simple, but hammers and axes are not?Axes and hammers have a small striking surface compared to maces/morningstars. With an ax or a hammer, you have to have the point*/edge facing the precisely the correct direction, or you get a glancing blow that is much less effective; maces/morningstar don't have that problem.

*warhammer != a sledge (which is what you commonly see in fantasy art). They come down to almost a point in order to focus the force on a smaller area.


In real life, I would call a sling an exotic weapon. It's way harder to use than a bow.Generally, it's way easier for people to get a reasonable degree of accuracy with a sling. It takes someone about the same amount of time to be able to sling as it does to learn to throw a baseball. Archery generally takes far longer.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

They [Cat o' Nine Tails] were capable of literally removing skin in ragged strips. These are some nasty pieces of equipment.

The man is right. Bear in mind that the 12 dozen lashes was typical for a punishment. There's a big difference between inflicting a metric ton of pain on someone and actively trying to kill them: a punishment is supposed to serve as a warning to the ship's crew (or whatever community) and the individual in general, not to lose you a crew member on a ship where you needed everyone you could get.

If you were actively trying to kill someone, you could do so quite easily, and with much less time and effort than 100+ lashes. Hell, a knotted rope in the right hands can be a lethal weapon in as little as a couple of solid blows. A Cat o' Nine Tails is far worse than a knotted rope (especially the leather ones, as the rope ones wouldn't cut as deeply). At least, a Cat o' Nine Tails meant for use as a weapon would be, as some of the lethal ones incorporated hooks, bits of metal, and other nasty things.

[Spiryt]

The man is right. Bear in mind that the 12 dozen lashes was typical for a punishment. There's a big difference between inflicting a metric ton of pain on someone and actively trying to kill them: a punishment is supposed to serve as a warning to the ship's crew (or whatever community) and the individual in general, not to lose you a crew member on a ship where you needed everyone you could get.

If you were actively trying to kill someone, you could do so quite easily, and with much less time and effort than 100+ lashes. Hell, a knotted rope in the right hands can be a lethal weapon in as little as a couple of solid blows. A Cat o' Nine Tails is far worse than a knotted rope. At least, a Cat o' Nine Tails meant for use as a weapon would be, as some of the lethal ones incorporated hooks, bits of metal, and other nasty things.

I'm pretty sure it's quite a bit backwards.

Scourge like that could cause intensive pain or even death as it was designed, because it could be used against defenseless victim that was just taking another strikes.

Against anyone with more serious weapon I can't imagine it being really promising.... All stuff on the end still can harm if you can swing at bound human, can't bind, block, help to keep distance much.

When you don't have any other weapon - cool, but I wouldn't count on it as far as killing protesting target goes.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Against anyone with more serious weapon I can't imagine it being really promising.... All stuff on the end still can harm if you can swing at bound human, can't bind, block, help to keep distance much.

If you're good enough, you could definitely make it work. Still, I never said it would be a good weapon, especially against an armored target (unless you could hit their face/hands). All I was pointing out was that it could definitely be lethal in less than 1000 lashes, or even 20.

[AtomicKitKat]

I always thought a Flail should work like Demogorgon's. Without the Daze/Stun for multiple hits, but with a random chance to land 1-3 heads per attack. But folks who hate rolling dice would probably curse it.

[arguskos]

I always thought a Flail should work like Demogorgon's. Without the Daze/Stun for multiple hits, but with a random chance to land 1-3 heads per attack. But folks who hate rolling dice would probably curse it.
You almost certainly mean Yeenoghu's flail. Demogorgon uses no weaponry, and the Demon Prince of Gnolls is famed for his triple-headed flail.

Also, I once drew up stats for a triple-flail. I need to dig those back out.

[Doug Lampert]

But whips have 3 penalties:
Nonlethal
Can't damage
No reach.

That makes it martial I believe.

Look at spiked chain: similar to Whip but no penallties.


20?

Speed Chains are 2 handed meaning damage should be 2d6, but it gains 1 point by lowering to 2d4.
Reach but also close is 2 point. Trip is 1 point. +2 disarm is 1 point. Weapon finesse is 1 point.
So we have spent 5 points. We have 1 point more. 1 point so not too costly?

Should be 2d6? Since when? Greatsword is the ONLY weapon in the entire SRD with that high a damage! So you assume it's default!?

Crap. The standard damage for 2hd is 1d8. Greatsword paid two upgrades to get 2d6 and 1 for increased crit range. That's the three it gets for martial.

2d4 is a +1 feature, not -1.

DougL

[Starbuck_II]

Should be 2d6? Since when? Greatsword is the ONLY weapon in the entire SRD with that high a damage! So you assume it's default!?

Crap. The standard damage for 2hd is 1d8. Greatsword paid two upgrades to get 2d6 and 1 for increased crit range. That's the three it gets for martial.

2d4 is a +1 feature, not -1.

DougL
What 1d8?
That is so one handed damage.
A large longword, morningstar, heavy mace, and so on all do 2d6.

The 1d6 weapons have a special benefit: scimitar/rapier have expanded threat.

Falchion is a great sword that lowers damage to 2d4 to expand threat.

[Shademan]

Axes and hammers have a small striking surface compared to maces/morningstars. With an ax or a hammer, you have to have the point*/edge facing the precisely the correct direction, or you get a glancing blow that is much less effective; maces/morningstar don't have that problem.

*warhammer != a sledge (which is what you commonly see in fantasy art). They come down to almost a point in order to focus the force on a smaller area.

Generally, it's way easier for people to get a reasonable degree of accuracy with a sling. It takes someone about the same amount of time to be able to sling as it does to learn to throw a baseball. Archery generally takes far longer.


yeah but still! its a friggin hammer/axe.
heavy end goes into enemy.

[Ravens_cry]

yeah but still! its a friggin hammer/axe.
heavy end goes into enemy.
Well, proficiency is proficiency, not Hulk-style smashing. You are not just using it blindly, you are using it to hit the right places, you know how to not overextend and let down your guard, how to read other peoples and know when best to strike.

[Amridell]

I beleive that a whip is HARDLY simple. My brother owns one, and when my friend came over, he tried to use it, and ended up with a huge red mark acrost his shoulder. He hasn't used it since, and I have no intention of using that thing myself.

Er...on myself.

[Spiryt]

Well, proficiency is proficiency, not Hulk-style smashing. You are not just using it blindly, you are using it to hit the right places, you know how to not overextend and let down your guard, how to read other peoples and know when best to strike.

This all can be said about mace of whatever variety.

3.5 weapon system just doesn't make sense at all IMHO.

Infinity engine/2nd edition system, how I miss thee. :smallamused:

[Amridell]

2nd edition system, how I miss thee. :smallamused:


Yeah, I played first edition once, and many of the rules were much better. Except for lightning bolts bouncing off stone. Almost fried myself. That, and poison killed you instantly. I lost a party member to it. Twice.

[ashmanonar]

I beleive that a whip is HARDLY simple. My brother owns one, and when my friend came over, he tried to use it, and ended up with a huge red mark acrost his shoulder. He hasn't used it since, and I have no intention of using that thing myself.

Er...on myself.

Dare I ask why your brother even has a whip?

...

Did you wash your hands before handling it?

[Thurbane]

Dare I ask why your brother even has a whip?

Hey, you never know when you're going to need to swing accross a chasm in an ancient ruin!

[AtomicKitKat]

You almost certainly mean Yeenoghu's flail. Demogorgon uses no weaponry, and the Demon Prince of Gnolls is famed for his triple-headed flail.

Also, I once drew up stats for a triple-flail. I need to dig those back out.

Yeah. Gnoll king. I think I need to study my BoVD more. *re-lurks*

[cowsay]

I beleive that a whip is HARDLY simple. My brother owns one, and when my friend came over, he tried to use it, and ended up with a huge red mark acrost his shoulder. He hasn't used it since, and I have no intention of using that thing myself.

Er...on myself.

While I don't offer this as a way to say that the whip IS a simple weapon in DnD or, now that I've been enlightened, that it necessarily should be, but the fact that your brother does not know how to use a particular tool does not make that tool hard to use. No offense to you or your brother intended.

I have used several kinds of whips in my time, even from horseback, and have never hit myself or the horse (unintentionally). It is NOT hard to use a whip properly or safely, if you think about it and if you don't try to emulate what you see people in the movies doing. Unfortunately, many people do try to use a whip the way the see people using them in films and that is both foolhardy and dangerous. If you used horses and cars the way people appear to use them in movies, they would also be hard to use safely. This is also true for guns.

Now, if the standard in DnD is that simple weapons do not do the kinds of things a whip can do (trip, disarm, nonlethal damage, reach, etc.), so be it. But whips are both simple to make and simple to use. They have been in use for millennia. They are inexpensive to make, though it does require some time if you want high quality.

[arguskos]

Yeah. Gnoll king. I think I need to study my BoVD more. *re-lurks*
Yes, you do, cause the Demon Princes are awesome. Also, a far better source is the Fiendish Codex I, at least for 3.5 information about the Demon Princes.

[DeltaEmil]

But whips are both simple to make and simple to use.Which is why a whip costs 1 gold piece, making it one amongst the most cheapest weapons (non-ammunition) buyable in the list, together with the light hammer or the short spear, as well as the sai.

Unless you want a masterwork whip that gives you a +1 bonus to hit, then it will cost 301 gp. :smalltongue:

[endoperez]

Generally, it's way easier for people to get a reasonable degree of accuracy with a sling. It takes someone about the same amount of time to be able to sling as it does to learn to throw a baseball. Archery generally takes far longer.

I've heard the opposite. It takes about as long to learn to sling stones somewhere as it takes to learn to throw a baseball. Learning to sling accurately is very hard. The theory of it seems simple (release cord when the tangent of the sling's arc will lead the stone to the target), except that the sling is slightly behind the arm, and that you have to take gravity into account. Actually trying to use it is very difficult.

See here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj4_3ynNj8o) for an example of a group of people trying to hit a head-sized target. While not a man-sized target, it's easy to see how close the shots come to hitting a man-sized target. There aren't that many close misses, even less direct hits, and the distance to the target is just 10 meters.

[Ravens_cry]

@cowsay:
You just proved the point. The way the movies show using whips is how they are statted out in the game as being useful for tripping, disarming; the ludicrously precise showmanship that, as you say, is foolhardy and dangerous. To be able to use them in this manner begs the kind of dedicated skill and effort an Exotic Weapon Proficiency reflects.

[Pentachoron]

That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Cat O Nine Tails" bullplop that's going on in the d20 system right now. Whips deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine whip in California for $200 AUD (that's about $200 USD) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even herd slabs of livestock with my whip.

{{scrubbed}}

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d3 Nonlethal Damage
20 x2 Crit
15-foot reach
+2 to disarm attempts
Can be used to trip

Now that seems a lot more representative of the naughtiness of whips in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = whips need to do the same damage in d20, see my new stat block.

I don't know, I think I'd prefer to keep my whips at doing 1d33 Nonlethal. :smallwink:

[Maeglin_Dubh]

That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Cat O Nine Tails" bullplop that's going on in the d20 system right now. Whips deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine whip in California for $200 AUD (that's about $200 USD) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even herd slabs of livestock with my whip.

{{scrubbed}}

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d3 Nonlethal Damage
20 x2 Crit
15-foot reach
+2 to disarm attempts
Can be used to trip

Now that seems a lot more representative of the naughtiness of whips in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = whips need to do the same damage in d20, see my new stat block.

You win at everything forever.

[Gnoman]

I've heard the opposite. It takes about as long to learn to sling stones somewhere as it takes to learn to throw a baseball. Learning to sling accurately is very hard. The theory of it seems simple (release cord when the tangent of the sling's arc will lead the stone to the target), except that the sling is slightly behind the arm, and that you have to take gravity into account. Actually trying to use it is very difficult.

See here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj4_3ynNj8o) for an example of a group of people trying to hit a head-sized target. While not a man-sized target, it's easy to see how close the shots come to hitting a man-sized target. There aren't that many close misses, even less direct hits, and the distance to the target is just 10 meters.

This is correct. The sling is considered to be among the most difficult weapons to learn to use ever made. The sole virtue of a sling that made it common is that it is very easy to make from scraps, and you can do a huge amount of damage with one if you train with it your whole life. A bow or crossbow, assuming you have adequate strength to use the former, can be learned in a few weeks.

[Darth Stabber]

That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Cat O Nine Tails" bullplop that's going on in the d20 system right now. Whips deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine whip in California for $200 AUD (that's about $200 USD) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even herd slabs of livestock with my whip.

{{scrubbed}}

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d3 Nonlethal Damage
20 x2 Crit
15-foot reach
+2 to disarm attempts
Can be used to trip

Now that seems a lot more representative of the naughtiness of whips in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = whips need to do the same damage in d20, see my new stat block.

Again I would say the whip is only included for character who wear studded leather and have mustaches, or indian chiefs, or police officers, or construction workers, or cowboys. (complete the look).

[randomhero00]

PS
Crappy whips of rope are easy to make. But real whips of leather are very difficult to make. Go look up some nice whips. They're several hundred dollars.

Personally, I'd houserule that non magic whips do non lethal damage to armored opponents, but once its magic, it does damage normally.

[Tetsubo 57]

Have you ever used a whip? Lets just say that I have experience on a 'recreational' level... it isn't the easiest thing to use effectively. Not to mention it has mechanical advantages that make it better than a Simple weapon.

[tbarrie]

Simply put, you have to REALLY know what you're doing if you plan on using a whip as an actual weapon, and the average fighter simply doesn't get that kind of training at the military academy.

Though oddly enough, it seems the average musician does.

[Doug Lampert]

What 1d8?
That is so one handed damage.
A large longword, morningstar, heavy mace, and so on all do 2d6.

The 1d6 weapons have a special benefit: scimitar/rapier have expanded threat.

Falchion is a great sword that lowers damage to 2d4 to expand threat.

The special benefit is being paid for with the points discussed. Did you READ the post you were replying too? It listed how many points to upgrade crits. The BASIC function is 1d4 light (dagger), 1d6 one handed, 1d8 two handed.

Falchion increased crit range is within the available purchase with three points for martial. It's a perfect example damage wise of a standard 2hd weapon.

Large weapons give a minus to hit and aren't standard two handed weapons. Additionally most of those ALREADY HAVE increased damage.

Consider again that Greatsword, martial so three points of improvement. 1 for increased threat range, the other two go for WHAT exactly, be precise, this is one of the best two handed martial weapons in the game, what are the other two benefits going for, I'll give you a hint, (1) increased damage and (2) more increased damage, which gets you UP to 2d6. That's a full martial weapon.

[Starbuck_II]

The special benefit is being paid for with the points discussed. Did you READ the post you were replying too? It listed how many points to upgrade crits. The BASIC function is 1d4 light (dagger), 1d6 one handed, 1d8 two handed.

And that is where it was wrong. D8 is one handed.
Daggers are not the base of light. Daggers Have d4, 19-20/x2 (1 point), throwable range (1 point), and options of both pierce/slash (2 points).
That is 4 abilities. Daggers downgraded their damage for an extra option.

[randomhero00]

I think I'd make the whip "special" since it can be dual wielded (trust me, I have IRL) like a light weapon but not useable in a grapple.

So I'd make it something like EWP 1d4 16-20 (representative of hitting someone in the eyes or throat or something). Dual wieldable as a light weapon but not usuable for damage in a grapple. +6 to disarm and trip.Non magic deals non lethal to armored opponents, magic can deal either. Or something.

I know the cowboys that drove the wagons were extremely skilled in the longer whips. Because of boredom they'd whip lizards and such on the way. They'd hit them so they popped up into the air then whip them again and slice them in half in mid air. Whips definitely deal lethal damage, just not through anything with metal.

[AtomicKitKat]

I know the cowboys that drove the wagons were extremely skilled in the longer whips. Because of boredom they'd whip lizards and such on the way. They'd hit them so they popped up into the air then whip them again and slice them in half in mid air. Whips definitely deal lethal damage, just not through anything with metal.

I believe the average desert lizard has 0 Natural Armour. Whips deal 0(or was it non-lethal?) damage to anything with no Natural Armour and no Armour Armour.:smalltongue:

[Gullintanni]

And that is where it was wrong. D8 is one handed.
Daggers are not the base of light. Daggers Have d4, 19-20/x2 (1 point), throwable range (1 point), and options of both pierce/slash (2 points).
That is 4 abilities. Daggers downgraded their damage for an extra option.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't piercing worth 0 points? Actually assuming the earlier point system is correct...isn't this is how it breaks down...

10 points to start.

Simple 3
Light 3
Piercing 0
Slashing 1
Throwable 10 ft. 1
Expanded Crit range 1

...that's 9 of 10 points spent.

[cowsay]

I know the cowboys that drove the wagons were extremely skilled in the longer whips. Because of boredom they'd whip lizards and such on the way. They'd hit them so they popped up into the air then whip them again and slice them in half in mid air. Whips definitely deal lethal damage, just not through anything with metal.

I have worked with ranch hands who can split coke cans with a whip at fifteen feet. Most of the time the can explodes, but not infrequently, the top half of the can is just severed off the bottom so that you can drink half a can of coke out of it. This kind of accuracy takes lots of practice to achieve. I can't do it. But, to hit a cow, horse, or man, is not that difficult. Not hitting your allies who happen to be behind you when you bring your whip around for another attack is more difficult, but still the whip allows a variety approaches to the target, so the cowhand can avoid his horse, the passenger next to him, the other cowhands, etc.

Most of what you see in the movies is not a realistic portrayal of how to use a whip. The end is the same, but the execution is embellished, just like lots of other things in the movies (driving, horsemanship, gun shooting, sports of all kinds, etc.). If you want to learn how to use a whip, become a ranch hand and you'll learn quickly.

And someone said that making really good whips is hard. It's true that a really fine whip is expensive and takes some work to make. BUT, to make an effective whip (one that will hurt, damage hide, snap, hit a reasonable target, wrap around a tree or appendage) is not that difficult. It is done around the world every day for pennies.

[elsielefe]

Simple weapons are average-quality armament that a not-all-too combat proficient character like a wizard, sorcerer, cleric or ranger ought to be able to use. Martial weapons are high-quality kill instruments that are generally a lot better and should be used by professional combatants.

[DEMON]

Simple weapons are average-quality armament that a not-all-too combat proficient character like a wizard, sorcerer, cleric or ranger ought to be able to use. Martial weapons are high-quality kill instruments that are generally a lot better and should be used by professional combatants.

A ranger? With full BAB and martial weapon proficiency, this class hardly falls in the not-all-too combat proficient character :)
On topic: whip should have been tool with a fixed 1 nonleathal damage against unarmed creatures and the special attacks. Possibly usable in combat as a standard action (so no iteratives). But thats a hell of a homebrew.

[onthetown]

A horse riding whip, sure. It's a light stick that's only one foot to two feet long and isn't meant to hit anything with.

An actual whip as described by D&D? I've used one of those, too. It's why I have a very long scar down my arm. They are not idiot-proof weapons. :smallamused:

There are whips used to drive horses away from you and encourage them to go forward when you're working them from the ground, but again, you're not meant to actually hit them with it so there's no accuracy involved... plus it's a longer handle so I don't hurt myself... :smalltongue: