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Tanuki Tales
2011-02-23, 11:52 AM
Are they treated any different? A few days ago I was reading through the Eberron motivational thread on Wizards and a few of the posters raised questions for me; how are Paladins handled in Eberrons wishy washy alignment environment? Of the ones I remember seeing concerned the Boondock Saints, Two-Face and a very morbid Paladin of Vol but I'm not familiar enough to know which were meant to be sarcastic in nature.

Greenish
2011-02-23, 11:55 AM
Paladins in Eberron work just like paladins in other settings, being "held to higher standards than even clerics", with the exception that they can follow an Evil religion (but they still aren't allowed to perform Evil actions) and that many (maybe more than in other settings) of them follow not gods but ideals.

hamishspence
2011-02-23, 11:57 AM
The Eberron alignment system is not that different from 3.5 core.

Paladins still Fall for breaking the code, and so on.

The biggest difference is clerics (can be of normally invalid alignments and retain their powers) and monsters (some that were Always X Alignment become Usually X alignment.

What counts as an evil or good act, generally follows the same rules though.

Nerd-o-rama
2011-02-23, 12:03 PM
Paladins are still expected to be Paladins is the short answer.

They can worship any God/religion they like, though, and the God/religion can't rescind their powers. Non-Fallen Paladins of the Blood of Vol are perhaps the most common, since that's more like a mystery cult than anything for everyone but the Order of the Indiana Jones Villains.

I think the only exception to the Paladin code as written is an acknowledgment that not associating with people based on their alignment is counterproductive to actually doing Good. The books also make it clear that defaulting automatically to committing violence on petty, mortal evildoers isn't a Paladin's thing - the cheat innkeeper gets a stern lecture, or possibly civil prosecution, not a beatdown.

Tanuki Tales
2011-02-23, 12:04 PM
The Eberron alignment system is not that different from 3.5 core.

Paladins still Fall for breaking the code, and so on.

The biggest difference is clerics (can be of normally invalid alignments and retain their powers) and monsters (some that were Always X Alignment become Usually X alignment.

What counts as an evil or good act, generally follows the same rules though.

Well, I did say environment, not system.:smallbiggrin:

So Paladins are still stuck with their Stick-up-their Code in a setting where Alignments are more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules?

And how does one go about being Lawful Good while being part of a Religion of Evil?

Telonius
2011-02-23, 12:07 PM
how are Paladins handled in Eberrons wishy washy alignment environment?

I think a better question than how Eberron handles Paladins, is how Paladins handle Eberron. Paladins still have to act like Paladins. But how they relate (emotionally) to the rest of the world can be a bit different. You have the Silver Flame, which is probably what most of the "classic" Paladin personalities would probably gravitate towards. But the presence of so much grit and evil in the world could definitely lead to some of them being a lot more world-weary. Or, it could just give them that much more motivation and idealism. Or something in-between, or something else altogether. It really depends on the individual Paladin.

Greenish
2011-02-23, 12:07 PM
So Paladins are still stuck with their Stick-up-their Code in a setting where Alignments are more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules?Yes.


And how does one go about being Lawful Good while being part of a Religion of Evil?The same way one always goes about being Lawful Good: by being Lawful Good.

Most of the Seekers aren't Evil, anyhow.

Yora
2011-02-23, 12:10 PM
I think the point with this is, that since there is no direct line between gods and priests, you can still perform services in the name of a deity that is actually evil without any negative effects. Of course, being Lawful Good, a paladin would most probably believe that his Deity is actually lawful good, or he wouldn't worship it.
But in other settings a good cleric worshipping an evil deity would not gain any spells. In Eberron, the gods don't care. Or rather what they think doesn't matter.
This is mostly important when you have evil clerics within a good church, or you have evil religions that maintain a good facade to the outside. What's more convincing than even your own low-rank priests believing they serve a good god?

hiryuu
2015-08-29, 03:34 PM
Vol isn't worship of a deity, it's exhaltation of a state - the Church of Vol believes that death on its own is unfair, though it is inevitable. The undead are like bodhis - beings who gave up their ability to pass on into the cycle of life and death so that they might better aid the living in making life and the passage to the next one easier to deal with. They're upset at Dolurrh much the same way mainstream elven religion is - it's just that instead of using hope and the collective will of the elven people to keep their dead guys alive, they use arcane power and their collective despair and annoyances.

You can totes paladin this easy - Dolurrh really is a pile of horse-you-know-what. People do need to know there are better things in this world, or that through their will or gumption or just plain sympathy for other living people they can potentially turn death away like it's an unwelcome guest. Be the shining beacon of hope in the world of hatred and despair that is Dolurrh.

You must also remember that it's not about the deity, it's about what people believe about that deity. A Neutral Evil cleric of the flame might actually think he's doing good, and his good aura from the flame will overpower his own evil aura, so even he can't tell he's screwing up.


So Paladins are still stuck with their Stick-up-their Code in a setting where Alignments are more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules?

And how does one go about being Lawful Good while being part of a Religion of Evil?

Never heard the code put that way before, but, eh, I'm aware some players use the paladin code the same way they used thieves in previous editions, "you all have to tolerate my crazy, incorrectly interpreted behavior." Anyway, you need to remember that in Eberron, religions have alignments in the upper eschelons but in the lower ranks it's all about how things are interpreted. The Silver Flame has evil adherents and has been used for horrible evil in the past, and it's a goody-two-shoes religion. Much like this, you can retool a philosophy just a tad and it becomes paladin approved - the Traveler shows us both a series of tests to strengthen ourselves against deception and provides us examples of what not to do.

Ravian
2015-08-30, 11:35 AM
Yeah religion in Eberron isn't as simplistic as simply being good or evil. Sure some would describe a religion to be evil, but most of them still see themselves as good.

The Blood of Vol may have less than moral intentions at its origin, but most of its worshipers aren't evil, they just believe that death is something to be avoided, and undeath is an acceptable, if not ideal alternative to that oblivion. Most good worshipers of the Blood of Vol are unaware of Vol's existence, and are more concerned with preserving their community (to prevent the deaths of others) and improving themselves in the hope of awakening the divine spark within their blood.

The Dark Six are a little harder to worship as a good person. But most of their worshipers are of the monstrous races, who tend to consider themselves outcasts and the dark six being unfairly cast out by the Sovereign host.

For example the humanoid races consider the Shadow to be a dark reflection of the god of knowledge who created the evil creatures of the darkness who prey on good and honest folk. The Monsters that worship it consider the Shadow to be the source of their powers, who granted them to the outcast races in order to fend off those that would hunt them down and kill them. The mockery's worshipers would consider their deity to be a protector who taught them to use cunning and tricks that the strong would condemn as dishonorable as they destroyed the weak.

Paladins of these religions would likely act rather differently from others. And I might even consider using a few houserules to represent differences in ideology. (For example a paladin of the mockery might be allowed to use poison as long as it was used for good purposes.).

Nerd-o-rama
2015-08-30, 08:26 PM
Undead abomination!

/smite

Am I referring to a follower of the Blood of Vol or this thread? You be the judge.

goto124
2015-08-30, 10:23 PM
(For example a paladin of the mockery might be allowed to use poison as long as it was used for good purposes.).

- Must use DnD poison that simply deals damage, not realistic poison that actively puts the victim through needless suffering.
- Non-lethal poisons (such as paralyzing ones) are fine.
- Must not poison water wells.
- Must clean up and dispose of the corpse properly after poison has been used on that person. Can't have scavengers come along and get poisoned too. (Inspired by RL. Cats can get poisoned indirectly by poison mouse traps.) Druids may follow this as well.

LudicSavant
2015-09-04, 01:27 PM
The Blood of Vol may have less than moral intentions at its origin

What point are you thinking of as the "origin"? The roots of the Blood of Vol faith go back way longer than Erandis d'Vol (indeed, it apparently predates the elven civilization on Aerenal). Just like the origins of the Silver Flame go back a lot farther than Flamekeep.

I feel like the Blood of Vol is a victim of a sort of bowdlerization through multiple authors, since a lot of the WotC authors seem to be really stuck on the undead = eeeevil thing. Keith Baker's original version is rather more interesting, IMHO.


I've posted about this before, but what the heck.

My original take on the Blood of Vol (well, with a few edits) can be found on page 95 of Sharn: City of Towers, in which it is presented as a variant sect of the faith. Faiths of Eberron comes closer than many other books, but there are a few crucial differences. To sum up my view of the faith:

The Blood of Vol is founded on the premise that gods exist. However, it takes the question "What just god would allow suffering" and concludes "None" - that if gods exist and suffering exists, the gods must be responsible for the suffering. As flies to wanton boys are we to the gods - they kill us for their sport.

The second piece of this is the idea that divinity lies within blood. Essentially, we all have the potential to be gods. The problem is that this takes time. Which is why the gods afflicted us with disease and mortality - so that we will die before we can rise to their level. It's not unlike the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Eternal Life.
Following the FoE approach, those who seek the divinity within can approach this greater power. But in my vision, they can't ever reach it. You simply don't have enough time in this life to attain true divinity; the hostile gods will always stop you. Which means that the ultimate goal of the BoV is to find a way to destroy the gods - to defeat death itself.

How do you go about doing this when no one has ever seen a god? Good question. Perhaps you have to take away their worshippers. Perhaps you have to build up enough power that you can reach some higher realm beyond the known planes. Either way, it's something that's difficult to do in a mortal lifespan... and that's where the undead come in. The undead escape the curse, and by living many lifespans, they have the potential to gain knowledge and power, to advise the living, and to be their champions in the battle that is to come. At the same time, they are martyrs. Because the ultimate divinity lies in the blood, and they no longer have it. Even if the cruel gods are defeated and the new age brought to the world, they have thrown away their ultimate potential to serve in this great battle. So the typical worshipper doesn't want to be undead; he wants to be immortal.

Why the BoV is commonly seen as "worshipping undead" is because they are devoted to their undead champions. The peasant farmer knows HE has no hope of fighting the gods - but he believes that the vampire knight may one day save us all from death. What the farmer CAN do is give his blood to the vampire, and this he does willingly.
10:35 PM When it comes to mindless undead, the BoV simply has no qualms about using them. They believe that once you're dead, your soul is destroyed by those cruel gods. There's nothing special about the body left behind, and if your body can serve your community, great. The warrior sworn to the BoV fights the gods in life with his faith, and when he dies, he wants his bones to rise up and continue the battle.

I never intended the Blood of Vol to be a "EEEEVIL" faith. They creep people out because of their association with undead, blood rituals, and the like. But in their eyes, they are heroes. If they are successful, they will bring an end to death for all living things. The followers of the Sovereign Host are worse then fools - they are empowering the very gods who have brought death to the world. They must be stopped - it's too bad, but it's for the good of all. So ultimately, the BoV is a religion based on positive principles: saving the entire world from death. This ties to the fact that I think very few people WANT to be evil. My view of good and yours may be very different. But the BoV peasant firmly believes that in giving his blood to the vampire, he is saving the world.
The flip side of this is the Order of the Emerald Claw. They HAVE always been the EEEVIL side of things. They're the extremists who tarnish the name of their entire faith in the eyes of the world, just like so many religious extremists in our world. Likewise, the Emerald Claw is supposed to be directly interested in doing whatever Erandis wants, not whatever the faith dictates. And at the end of the day, ERANDIS isn't interested in saving the world from death. She's using this faith to manipulate the masses - but her goals are as selfish as the most corrupt priest of the Silver Flame. Again, the key to Eberron is that corruption can be found in ANY church - the evil ones as well as the good ones. So the EC has always been intended as purely evil pulp villains - but the BoV is a faith that can appeal to tens of thousands of perfectly decent people.
A final thing I'll say is that the Blood of Vol also seemed to me to be an archtypically Karrnathi faith. The gods hate you and want to destroy you. Death is the end - there's no happy after life waiting for you, just the utter destruction of your soul. All you have is your friends and your family, and the fight to make this life worthwhile. You will support the champions and fight the cruel gods, and when they kill you, you will rise from the grave and continue the battle until they grind your bones to dust. And some day your people will defeat the gods themselves.

So that's my take on the Blood of Vol. In my opinion, community is very important to the faith; we have to stand together, because the universe itself is against us. Rather than being atheistic or selfish, it's actually a sort of grim altruism; if they succeed in their struggle, they'll save even the unworthy fools who worship the Sovereigns.

My intent was also to create irreconcilable differences between the three major faiths - faiths which in and of themselves could all be positive forces. The Silver Flame hates the Blood of Vol for its use of undead and negative energy. The Blood of Vol doesn't care about the Silver Flame, but hates the Sovereigns as the source of suffering, and is forced to oppose the followers of the Host. And the SH doesn't much care about either of the others, but that doesn't solve its troubles with the BoV.

Anyhow, there you have it. I'm fine with all the various forms the BoV has taken, but personally I like the struggle against the cruel gods.

Perhaps another helpful link: http://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-53014-vol-the-dark-six-and-the-trouble-with-aundair/
Here are some more, dealing with religion and alignment in Eberron in general rather than just the Blood of Vol: http://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-411-religion-and-faith/ , http://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-44-good-and-evil/

Ravian
2015-09-06, 12:56 PM
What point are you thinking of as the "origin"? The roots of the Blood of Vol faith go back way longer than Erandis d'Vol (indeed, it apparently predates the elven civilization on Aerenal). Just like the origins of the Silver Flame go back a lot farther than Flamekeep.

I feel like the Blood of Vol is a victim of a sort of bowdlerization through multiple authors, since a lot of the WotC authors seem to be really stuck on the undead = eeeevil thing. Keith Baker's original version is rather more interesting, IMHO.


I call Erandis d'Vol the origin because I think the Elven belief that predated it is significantly different enough to the Blood of Vol to be functionally different.

In essence, the elven faiths are all based on various ways to avoid death and the oblivion of the afterlife. The Undying court preserves their greatest heroes as deathless and sustains them with their faith. The Keepers of the Past preserve the already dead heroes by telling stories and emulating their deeds, preserving them in their memories.

The proto-vol religion essentially took the same approach as the Undying Court, but felt that undead were more effective than the undying, since undead are self-sustaining while undying require the veneration of the living. In essence one could scarcely call it a religion, since there's no belief necessary, just a whole lot of necromancy.

Erandis took this "religion" in a vastly different direction after she became a lich. By becoming an undead, she quickly realized that the state was not ideal and decided that she needed to achieve something greater. This is what makes the basis of the Blood of Vol. Living is considered the ideal state, based on achieving some awakened state within the blood. Undeath is considered a distant second place, since that existence is still static and rife with drawbacks but still preferable to death.

The origin isn't precisely "evil" but given that the person that made it an actual religion also intends to use it and any means necessary to unlock her mark of death and use it to take revenge on Elves and Dragons, I'd say it'd be fair to consider it less than benevolent in it original intentions.

The original form of the Silver Flame is still at its heart the same religion because the reverence is directed at the same force, whether it was humans, orcs or feathery yuan-ti worshiping it. The proto-Vols didn't have the whole unlocking the divinity of the blood thing and thought undeath was a great idea.



I do agree that the Blood of Vol gets characterized as "Teh evil religion" too often, in many ways its more like an objectivist religion, self-improvement, rejection of gods, ect. Only difference is its less selfish given its focus on protecting the community as well as improving oneself.

It's why I make an effort to make characters that are casual non-evil worshippers of the Blood of Vol.