[3.5] Fluffing up Demogorgon (and other Archs and Princes)

[Callos_DeTerran]

I have a small bit of a problem, one that I'm turning to everyone here for a bit of help. I'm looking for fluff on Demogorgon, Prince of Demons and finding it remarkably hard to come by. Now...I've read the Demonomicon article in Dragon on him, I've read Hordes of the Abyss and Book of Vile Darkness, I know he created the retrievers, death knights, lemorian half-fiends/golems, and other beasties, but other sources of information on him are proving remarkably scarce (and yes, I've read the AP about him too). What's even harder to find are details of his deeds and accomplishments.

Heck, the most I could find was how he 'allied' with a fellow demon lord, tricked him into angering a pantheon, let the ally take the heat when the pantheon retaliated turning an entire layer of the Abyss into a large gem), then watched as the Abyss destroyed that entire pantheon and created loumuras from the resulting mess. That's certainly impressive but...what the hell?! He's eons old and, considering the nature of D&D, has HAD to have had more successes then that or he wouldn't be the Prince of Demons! And it's not just Demogorgon either, it's every Big Bad Evil Outsider from Asmodeus to Jubilex, there's very little detail given about their actual deeds!

Now...I can understand not wanting to create a list of exploits that possibly won't fit into every campaign setting, but how the heck are these big bads supposed to put fear and terror into PCs at the mere mention of their names or the possibility of their involvement in something if the most the DM can give is a list of things they've created (which is neat, but not really impressive) and usually a single notable event that likely won't impress EVERY PC out there, if they even recognize the import of it ((An example of arcane mastery may impress the spellcasters of a group, but probably not the melee people, for example)).

So please, I'm looking for grandiose plots or schemes that can be accredited to Ahmon-Ibor, the Sibilant Beast. Demogorgon the Prince of Demons deserves a bowel-excavating reputation and I would like your help to give it to him, and every under-fluffed Big Bad Evil Outsider out there!

[Z3ro]

Why do they need extra fluff? To me, the demon lord/devil princes have always been this sort of nebulous presence that only quasi-influenced events. The only time I ever remember them coming up in a campaign was when I had my players tracking down a cult of Orcus, and there the disgust came from what the cult did, rather than Orcus himself.

[LOTRfan]

Heck, the most I could find was how he 'allied' with a fellow demon lord, tricked him into angering a pantheon, let the ally take the heat when the pantheon retaliated turning an entire layer of the Abyss into a large gem), then watched as the Abyss destroyed that entire pantheon and created loumuras from the resulting mess. That's certainly impressive but...what the hell?! He's eons old and, considering the nature of D&D, has HAD to have had more successes then that or he wouldn't be the Prince of Demons! And it's not just Demogorgon either, it's every Big Bad Evil Outsider from Asmodeus to Jubilex, there's very little detail given about their actual deeds!

Ah, the Seed of N'gharl. It was that act that resulted in the creation of Crawling Jungle, which slowly devoured countless continents. When Azuvidexus, the demon lord you mentioned Demogorgon tricking, is killed, the Crawling Jungle disappears for centuries at a time before arriving on some material world, where it starts the process of devouring it again.

What?

Anyway, I'll see what I can find to help you.

EDIT: There's a lot of lore on Orcus. What demon lords exactly do you want, besides Demogorgon?

[Caliphbubba]

This might help. Not offical, but they do awesome work in my opinion.

Dicefreaks Demogorgon (http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2505)

[kaiserthe3rd]

Theres the Savage Tide adventure path in Dungeon Magazine that has some fluff about Demogorgon. He was basically trying to make the whole world go insane using these giant black pearls. He used one of them a long time ago on the Isle of Dread and destroyed a whole city. Dungeon Magazine 139-150 if your interested. With some other stuff in Dragon Magzine 348-359 but thats mostly for PCs not as much fluff.

[Lapak]

I've always found that the monster you can't see is scarier than the one you can. Creating a list of horrifying feats runs exactly the risk you describe: that the PCs will respond with a resounding 'meh' to each one. "He doesn't sound so tough. Let's beat him up!"

Instead, stonewall them. If they try to find out anything about Demogorgon, make it clear that everyone is terrified of him: sages slam their doors in the party's faces at the name, towns try to drive them out if they're asking about him, and so on. If they push hard enough, they might find that every time someone goes hunting for information on the Prince of Demons that invariably suffer a horrible fate. No one knows what he's done, and trying to find out is a fatal proposition every time. Every time. They may already have caught his attention, in fact. Actually, when they next have the opportunity to hear about the person who told them that much, that NPC has been tortured to death.

[kaiserthe3rd]

Theres also some fluff with him in Bastion of Broken Souls. Not a whole lot but some is better than nothing.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Why do they need extra fluff? To me, the demon lord/devil princes have always been this sort of nebulous presence that only quasi-influenced events. The only time I ever remember them coming up in a campaign was when I had my players tracking down a cult of Orcus, and there the disgust came from what the cult did, rather than Orcus himself.

Because the plots and plans of demon princes and archdevils are the things that adventures and campaigns are made of! That, and they are very present threats at high levels when the PC's actions have a greater chance of inadvertently mussing up some Duke or Demon Prince's schemes, making it a good idea to get an idea of what sort of things they aim for and how they accomplish them.


Ah, the Seed of N'gharl. It was that act that resulted in the creation of Crawling Jungle, which slowly devoured countless continents. When Azuvidexus, the demon lord you mentioned Demogorgon tricking, is killed, the Crawling Jungle disappears for centuries at a time before arriving on some material world, where it starts the process of devouring it again.

What?

Anyway, I'll see what I can find to help you.

EDIT: There's a lot of lore on Orcus. What demon lords exactly do you want, besides Demogorgon?

That's interesting..where did you get all that information about the Crawling Jungle at?

And any of them really, though information about Orcus and Graz'zt is relatively easy to find.


This might help. Not offical, but they do awesome work in my opinion.

Dicefreaks Demogorgon (http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2505)

DF has good ideas, but primarily for the Dice Freaks setting which...well...I don't know of anyone who's played in it personally. In any case, my point is more so that Dicefreaks Demogorgon is too powerful (mechanically and fluffwise) to fit within the scope of most settings. Even just glancing over the entry....it gives credit to fashioning the Prime Material to Demogorgon for example.


Theres the Savage Tide adventure path in Dungeon Magazine that has some fluff about Demogorgon. He was basically trying to make the whole world go insane using these giant black pearls. He used one of them a long time ago on the Isle of Dread and destroyed a whole city. Dungeon Magazine 139-150 if your interested. With some other stuff in Dragon Magzine 348-359 but thats mostly for PCs not as much fluff.

Already know about it.


I've always found that the monster you can't see is scarier than the one you can. Creating a list of horrifying feats runs exactly the risk you describe: that the PCs will respond with a resounding 'meh' to each one. "He doesn't sound so tough. Let's beat him up!"

Instead, stonewall them. If they try to find out anything about Demogorgon, make it clear that everyone is terrified of him: sages slam their doors in the party's faces at the name, towns try to drive them out if they're asking about him, and so on. If they push hard enough, they might find that every time someone goes hunting for information on the Prince of Demons that invariably suffer a horrible fate. No one knows what he's done, and trying to find out is a fatal proposition every time. Every time. They may already have caught his attention, in fact. Actually, when they next have the opportunity to hear about the person who told them that much, that NPC has been tortured to death.

This isn't about fear, not strictly. Heck, a serial killer can scare PCs if done right, this is about awe, terror, and a sense of despair. In your example, assuming the PCs are MEANT to go up against Demogorgon, how would they even find out they were supposed to? Why would they care about some demon lord that no one will talk to them about and who apparently has never done anything? Where's the sense of accomplishment if they DO thwart him? They could have just as well sat at home and played chess for all the world and multiverse would care because it wouldn't have been a big deal. More importantly, having THAT level of attention to detail and people trying to find out about him is contrary to Demogorgon's very nature and plays up an omnipotence that he simply doesn't have.

This is about (either figuratively or literally) a minion of Demogorgon (or any other Big Bad Evil Outsider) confronting the PCs and listing off arch-devils, demon princes, gods, concepts, empires, arch-mages, and alliances that have all tried and failed to stop Demogorgon and asking them 'They all tried and failed, what hope do you have?' Even if it fails to impress/worry them, it'll give them a true sense of accomplishment if they DO manage to stop him. And to give that kind of feeling, not giving out info is purely counter-productive.

[LOTRfan]

The Crawling Jungle originated here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030414x) I have built an entire campaign stationed around the Crawling Jungle, and even updated the stats for Azuvidexus.

I second the Savage Tides campaign from Dungeon. If you read it, it introduces you to many aspects of Demogorgon (what is cool about these aspects is that they have their own personalities, and they are merely pawns of Demogorgon. He can see through their eyes, but they are not weakened carbon copies of him). It also describes in detail Demogorgon's relationships with other planar beings, his demonic army, and the most powerful of his servants (including his son).


You have already stated you know about it. Never mind.

[Caliphbubba]

DF has good ideas, but primarily for the Dice Freaks setting which...well...I don't know of anyone who's played in it personally. In any case, my point is more so that Dicefreaks Demogorgon is too powerful (mechanically and fluffwise) to fit within the scope of most settings. Even just glancing over the entry....it gives credit to fashioning the Prime Material to Demogorgon for example.

That's a fair enough assessment. Though I must disagree. I think it is perfectly reasonable to have the Prince of Demons to be that powerful mechanically and fluffwise in every setting. After all there has to be a reason why one of his multitude of enemies hasn't taken him down in the last several eons.

And while it may allude to the possibility that a vastly more powerful version of Demogorgon may have had a hand in creating the Prime Material, it also says that something he no longer exsists in that state. He is no longer a prime aspect of essential chaos, but now merely the Prince of Demons.

I wish you luck in finding more fluff on these exemplars of cosmic power that may coincide with your vision of how they ought to be. But in all probability you'll have to come up with it yourself.

www.planewalker.com might have something.

[Callos_DeTerran]

That's a fair enough assessment. Though I must disagree. I think it is perfectly reasonable to have the Prince of Demons to be that powerful mechanically and fluffwise in every setting. After all there has to be a reason why one of his multitude of enemies hasn't taken him down in the last several eons.

I must disagree with your disagree...or something. I agree that it is reasonable for him to be that powerful in every setting, but then it's pointless for anyone to resist him in any setting that the DM is unwilling to go into or doesn't allow epic levels of play. In such a setting, the DF Princes of Demons might as well be an over-deity for all that can stand against him.