So we all hate monks... but how awesome can they be made with enough work? [Archive]

Gavinfoxx

2011-02-23, 03:38 PM

So we all hate monks, unarmed swordsage is better, psychic warrior is better, etc. etc.

But, as a thought exercise, how good can they be made, stacking any of their innumerable alternative class features? Surely something workable can be figured out -- hell, dragon magazine gives them wild shape, for crying out loud...

So if you are going to go book diving and cherrypick lots of ACF's, how useful can a straight classed monk be, when you put lots of effort into it? Which of the top option ACF's are mutually exclusive, and what's generally best to pick?

Checking Dragon 324, it looks like for the Wild Monk, you could get a few of the other useful alternative class features, successfully: Holy strike, dark moon 7th... maybe there's some druid acf's that get rid of resist nature's lure for something more useful... stuff like that.

Anyone have any suggestions? How nice *can* this be made into? Maybe something that trades out flurry for something?

I know it's potentially a lot of work for not a lot of payoff, but I just want to know how big the payoff *can be*, ultimately!

Eldariel

2011-02-23, 04:01 PM

We don't strictly hate Monks, we just hate WoTC for making the class (and a couple of others) suck while appearing good to newbies (or just hate 'em for not understanding their own game and why all the removed restrictions used to be in place in earlier editions). But that aside...yes, Wild Monk is definitely your best bet. It's the only Monk that actually scales into the level 20 properly. Indeed, it gives Wildshape Ranger a run for its money; you get Unarmed Strikes which can be very brutal indeed with Wildshape (can be done in lieu of your natural attacks and scale with size, though you gotta wait until 16 for Huge Wildshape when things really get nice; still, you have Fleshraker form from 6 onwards and full pounce with Unarmed Strikes + Natural Attacks).

Unfortunately, you lose out on the only things Monk gets early on; the free bonus feats. Thus, Wildshape Monk will be even more terrible early on than a normal Monk (which is already the worst PC class from 1-6, even below CW Samurai and company since it can't wear armor or use proper weapons while being a non-magical melee types).

Anyways, you definitely want Invisible Fist from Exemplars of Evil. Level 2, gains you Invisibility every 3 rounds over Evasion. Immediate action so it both, shores up your offense and defense.

You could actually make Wild Monk a respectable early combatant with Vow of Poverty (EDIT: Nvm, alignment conflict); unlike normal Monk, Wild Monk actually has Wildshape going on for it so the midgame inconveniences from Vow of Poverty are alleviated. Further, with Blink and Invisibility from Invisible Fist, you cover many bothersome features you'd normally need spells for. This does, indeed, weaken you lategame but would shore up the god-awful first levels somewhat. Especially with Wild Monk being far, far less MAD than the normal variant.

Of course, that's no longer ACF, but meh. I'll look a bit more, and see if Wholeness of Body or company could be replaced.

EDIT: Ok, Resist Nature's Lure only gains you some mediocre feats (useful as prerequisites) and spontaneous curing (would kinda require spell slots first) so nothing useful from there.

And you actually lose basically all Monk class features that are tradeable when going Wild Monk. So Invisible Fist Wild Monk is probably far as you can go. It's definitely a late bloomer but has the potential to be competent from level 6 onwards. Level 1-4 it's like Wildshape Ranger without weapon proficiencies, armor proficiencies, with medium BAB and skills; or Druid without spells and animal companion.

Standard Monk, while terrible, is slightly less so during those levels thanks to the bonus feats granting them something to work with. But losing over 5 levels and winning over 15 levels definitely counts positively especially since the greatest issue of Monk has always been the fact that beyond the first few levels, the class gains nothing; something completely flipped by Wild Monk.

kaiserthe3rd

2011-02-23, 05:12 PM

I for one love monks.

Keld Denar

2011-02-23, 05:16 PM

Tashalatora fixed monks a few years ago. Monks are fine. Psionics are the chassis that monks should have gotten, rather than a bunch of hokey and shoddily put together SLAs and SUs.

arguskos

2011-02-23, 05:18 PM

Alleine

2011-02-23, 05:50 PM

It's pretty easy, just buy partially charged wands and you're as powerful as the wizard! :smallwink:
Pleasedonthurtme

T.G. Oskar

2011-02-23, 06:05 PM

I still think the Buddha Palm is totally awesome. Monk 2/Soulknife like 4 (IIRC)/Atavist 10/whatever X using the Shape Mind Blade feat from Dragon Magazine to make your mindblade an unarmed strike and double-up on the Atavist's boosts.

It's not the *most* amazing thing ever, but when you toss Sizing on the mind blade, you can just go to town.

Do both abilities stack? Don't you only stack one or the other of the classes?

I was planning to do a paladin-flavored kalashtar NPC using Soulknife (with the Kalashtar racial enhancements), Atavist and Illumine Soul, but had my doubts on how I should go with that. I could use some help, though.

In any case, on topic: we don't hate Monks here, we all agree it could have been done better, and opinions differ on the fixes. A group believes the unarmed variant of Swordsage as the definite fix for Monk, Ninja and a few other builds (to the extent that both classes are erased from their books, along with everything tasty they might have). Those same people partially or fully subscribe to the idea that ToB is a fix for all martial characters except the Barbarian because of sheer damage and perhaps one more full BAB character.

Others, to which I partly subscribe, place Psionics as an extremely good patch for Monks (and if using Psychic Rogue, Ninjas as well; I don't subscribe to that particular idea though) because of all the nice tricks that they grant them; usually you see Tashalatora (a feat on Secrets of Sarlona) which stacks monk abilities on any psionic class, so you can mix them with Ardent or Psychic Warrior (to make better use of Wisdom) or Psion (if using a feat that allows Monk abilities to run off Intelligence). A lesser version of that is using either Psionic Fist or Zerth Cenobite, but they don't reach the full potential of a character with Tashalatora. However, YMMV on Tashalatora since it practically replaces the chassis of the class towards an Ardent, Psychic Warrior or Psion.

A third comes with Pathfinder; while the Monk there still has a few issues, it's slightly better than the original in a few ways, such as providing some cool abilities with ki and allowing some abilities to be daily instead of weekly (*coughcoughQuiveringPalmcoughcough*). However, YMMV on whether you might want to use Pathfinder completely or you wish to remain on 3.5, since while a few things translate quite well, others don't; the backwards compatibility option between both edition "patches" is good but not complete.

Fourth, of course, is homebrew. There's a wide and varied set of options for monks, but you need to define what exactly to look on a Monk. Consensus here in the forum is that Monks are closer to a Fighter than anything else, but there's a vocal group (mostly jiriku) that places them as skirmishers and skill-monkeys. Most people are also against adding anything out of the ordinary into the Monk class, including (to my dismay) the use of ki as presented on the Ninja class. I speak of this as a Monk 'brewer, but I'll have anyone here present the traditional Monk "fixes" as you wish. Minor Monk fixes include raising their BAB to full, giving them enchantable handwraps or gauntlets to use their unarmed strike damage with magical properties, and daily uses of some abilities; also crucial is to fix the movement/Flurry dichotomy, since it's odd that a Monk cannot make all of its attacks while moving.

However, if you're against ALL of that, then you need to work really hard. Monks can be made useful through increasing their damage potential (Improved Natural Attack, maybe Kensai to enchant their fists, and good Strength/Dexterity), but that goes only so far. If you can find ways to increase your movement as a free action or swift action (Travel Devotion from Complete Champion, Sparring Dummy of the Master [sp?] from Arms and Equipment Guide and so on), that also makes them useful. Finally, they'll be a one-trick pony, so make sure that trick remains useful at every level.

That should be about it. Dunno if someone else wants to add anything else I might have forgotten, but please remain calm. If anything: don't ever mention Monks + UMD; generally not a good idea, even if UMD is really good (on other classes, those that can make good use of them).

arguskos

2011-02-23, 06:15 PM

Do both abilities stack? Don't you only stack one or the other of the classes?

I was planning to do a paladin-flavored kalashtar NPC using Soulknife (with the Kalashtar racial enhancements), Atavist and Illumine Soul, but had my doubts on how I should go with that. I could use some help, though.
Well, it advances Mind Blade and Unarmed Strike. Since your Mind Blade IS an Unarmed Strike, and thus benefits from all enhancements to your Unarmed Strikes, I see no reason why it doesn't. Also, seriously, it's SOULKNIFE and MONK. It's not like this is breaking anything we care about.

Psyren

2011-02-23, 06:43 PM

Well, it advances Mind Blade and Unarmed Strike. Since your Mind Blade IS an Unarmed Strike, and thus benefits from all enhancements to your Unarmed Strikes, I see no reason why it doesn't. Also, seriously, it's SOULKNIFE and MONK. It's not like this is breaking anything we care about.

As someone pointed out from another thread, you don't need Atavist to make this trick work; Tashalatora works with Soulknife just as well as it does with Psywar. In other words, Monk 2/Soulknife X with Shape Mind Blade and Tashalatora means:

- Your "fist" still ends up doing 2d10
- Full monk AC (Wis + 4)
- Full flurry
- You get a +8 enhancement bonus (+4 atk/dmg, +4 goodies)
- Free WF+GWF
- +4d8 Psychic Strike
- Multiple Throw (Ring the Golden Bell anyone?)
- You don't have to be Kalashtar

But it gets better. Shape Mind Blade is 3rd-party material - say your DM does not like that, and you want to do this with official sources.

You can't do the fist anymore, but you can turn your mind blade into a monk's spade thanks to a feat from Secrets of Sarlona. This is a special monk weapon, so you get to use flurry again and even TWF with it.

If you do this with the Pathfinder Soulknife and Monk, you go from being a fun and quirky build to a TWF nightmare human blender.

SurlySeraph

2011-02-23, 06:55 PM

Unfortunately, most Monk ACFs are just for fairly early class features, and many of their most underwhelming abilities come at higher levels.
Straight Monk builds. Hm.

Eldariel's Wild Monk build is probably about as solid as you can get, going straight Monk.

More traditionally, something with Invisible Fist, Passive Way, and Decisive Strike could make for a decent AoO build, focused on being invisible and then tripping things. With Martial Study (Cloak of Deception) and Assassin's Stance, it might work alright.

I'm tempted to try something leveraging Greater Flurry of Blows, Snap Kick and every other non-class-level means of getting extra attacks I can find, then using Vorpal, the BoED Paralyzing enhancement, Falling Star Strike and Unbalancing Strike (since they don't expend Stunning Fist uses, in what may or may not be an oversight), etc. to force lots of saves.

Or hell, just Vorpal with something that lets you auto-confirm crits and try to get lots of attacks in. Greater Flurry for 5 attacks, GTWF for 3, Haste for 1, Eagle's Fury + whatever that feat that lets you use other weapons as Monk weapons is called for 1, Slashing Flurry for 1 if you can somehow afford the prereqs... not great, but moderately acceptable. The right Soulmelds and Thri-Kreen or another 4-armed race would probably improve it, particularly in conjunction with a Fanged Ring or Amulet of Mighty Fists to get Vorpal natural weapons.
If there were a way to take another feat at 20th level, certain races could get Improved Rapidstrike, but I can't think of a way.

There's the "Like Shadow Pounce, but worse in every way" approach, using Dark Moon 7, Sun School, Snap Kick, and maybe some items to teleport a lot and make a couple attacks each time you do.

There's the "Be huge and hit things hard" approach, stacking up as many unarmed damage increasers as you can find, UMDing to get Greater Mighty Wallop, etc. and then just bashing things.

And then there's the "Cheap" approach, which is to rely heavily on UMD and RAW Diplomacy. Sure you're not doing anything an Expert wouldn't do almost as well, but you get to spout wisdom.

That should be about it. Dunno if someone else wants to add anything else I might have forgotten, but please remain calm. If anything: don't ever mention Monks + UMD; generally not a good idea, even if UMD is really good (on other classes, those that can make good use of them).

UMD for Greater Mighty Wallop is pretty reasonable. I'm certainly not going to start talking about "Just like a wizard, except reliant on wealth" and won't even think about mentioning partially charged wands, though.

CycloneJoker

2011-02-23, 06:55 PM

Dude. Level 6 monk. 3000 or so d10. Maybe closer to 4000. Also, they can make basically ANYTHING sleep, short of a god, and then Coup-de-Grace it. They rock.

riddles

2011-02-23, 08:04 PM

Tashalatora fixed monks a few years ago. Monks are fine. Psionics are the chassis that monks should have gotten, rather than a bunch of hokey and shoddily put together SLAs and SUs.

QFT. Tashalatora works with Psychic Warriors and Ardent to exceptional levels. I prefer ardent for the extra pp, but the psywar power selection is very good for monks.

Gensh

2011-02-23, 08:52 PM

The best use of monk I've seen so far was actually last Monday. As a result of applying real-world physics to the game combined with a natural 1, he ended up getting shunted into 2D space. Then it hit me: a monk's entire body counts as a natural weapon, and this particular monk was entirely two-dimensional, the perfect cutting edge. The hexblade now wields the monksword, dealing 3d6+1d8 damage, has a crit range of 17-20, and automatically initiates a grapple upon hitting. :smallbiggrin:

Leon

2011-02-23, 10:12 PM

but how awesome can they be made with enough work?

They can be awesome pretty much straight out of the box book.
Actually any class can, they are all good classes with out the need to tinkered with or squeezed for maximum effect.

One Tin Soldier

2011-02-23, 10:18 PM

The Glyphstone

2011-02-23, 10:19 PM

How on earth did rolling a 1 result in losing a physical dimension? :smalleek:

Who cares? It's fantastic.

MightyPirate

2011-02-23, 10:57 PM

This (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/treantmonk-s-guide-to-monks) made me want to play a monk. I'm just sort of waiting my turn because one of my fellow players is carrying the monk stick right now. Two seems like it would be a bit . . . much.

nyarlathotep

2011-02-23, 11:06 PM

They can be awesome pretty much straight out of the box book.
Actually any class can, they are all good classes with out the need to tinkered with or squeezed for maximum effect.

Why don't we just say that the OP is clearly playing in a different type of game than you and is looking for advice from similarly interested people, and leave it at that.

Doc Roc

2011-02-23, 11:12 PM

Dude. Level 6 monk. 3000 or so d10. Maybe closer to 4000. Also, they can make basically ANYTHING sleep, short of a god, and then Coup-de-Grace it. They rock.

I'd love to see this build.

Leon

2011-02-23, 11:25 PM

Why don't we just say that the OP is clearly playing in a different type of game than you and is looking for advice from similarly interested people, and leave it at that.

He asked how awesome they can be with some work - my answer is they don't need any work to be awesome with added note for everything else.

As far as his game its the same one i play - that most of the board plays at some time.

Doc Roc

2011-02-23, 11:54 PM

He asked how awesome they can be with some work - my answer is they don't need any work to be awesome with added note for everything else.

As far as his game its the same one i play - that most of the board plays at some time.

I disagree on a lot of points, but the salient one is that this simply isn't what the OP wanted. He wants to know just how far the squeezing can get you, as far as I grok.

Psyren

2011-02-23, 11:54 PM

CycloneJoker

2011-02-23, 11:57 PM

I'd love to see this build.

I must apologize, it does that around 15. I misremembered. Still pretty good, though, you probably won't like it. I need to be higher for the sleep thing. Some people don't think it works, but whatever.

Step 1) Bump your Charisma through the roof. For TheoryOp, let's just say something along the lines of Unseelie, Magic-Blooded, Draconic, Primordial, Half-Ogre, Incarnate Warforged, so you'd get around +6. Then be venerable, as Cha matters most. I don't know if all of those work together, this is off the top of my head.
Step 2) Get another helmet, as more books are coming.
3) Get Dragon 310. If you get where this is going, good. If you need RAW clarification, let me know.
4) Turn to page 45. Be a Martial Monk.
5) Have flaws. Take Noble Birth and Educated. If you can take Flaw feats after class feats, for your first class, take Improved Leadership. If not, oh well.
6) Your first monk feat is Epic Leadership. Then Legendary Commander. Then, for level six, something nice, maybe Weapon Supremacy, just for kicks and giggles.
7) You take Ecclesiarch for your 3rd level feat, and Assemble the Horde for 6th.

Well, you're level six, so your leadership score, assuming you use the race above, which also gets invisibility at will, IIRC, Cha +10, including the level, so 28. You have enough money, so get a Cloak of Cha, +2, for a nice 30. So your leadership score is either 21 or 23 (16 from levels and Cha, +2 from Noble, +2 from Ecclesiarch, +2 from Improved Leadership, if it applies, and +1 for assemble the horde), so normally, you'd have, at worst, 60, 6, 3, 2, 1, 1. Legendary commander multiplies by 10, for 600, 60, 30, 20, 10, 10. Assemble the Horde gives you 730, 60, 30, 20, 10, 10. So, for damage, 860d10, if I make them all warriors with Great Bows. Or, I can make you take 70 sleep saves, by reducing everyone level 3+ by two, to make them adepts. You'll roll a one sooner or later. Or, I could start by making you take 40 Magic Missiles.

Keld Denar

2011-02-24, 12:24 AM

Fox Box Socks

2011-02-24, 12:25 AM

I must apologize, it does that around 15. I misremembered. Still pretty good, though, you probably won't like it. I need to be higher for the sleep thing. Some people don't think it works, but whatever.

Step 1) Bump your Charisma through the roof. For TheoryOp, let's just say something along the lines of Unseelie, Magic-Blooded, Draconic, Primordial, Half-Ogre, Incarnate Warforged, so you'd get around +6. Then be venerable, as Cha matters most. I don't know if all of those work together, this is off the top of my head.
Step 2) Get another helmet, as more books are coming.
3) Get Dragon 310. If you get where this is going, good. If you need RAW clarification, let me know.
4) Turn to page 45. Be a Martial Monk.
5) Have flaws. Take Noble Birth and Educated. If you can take Flaw feats after class feats, for your first class, take Improved Leadership. If not, oh well.
6) Your first monk feat is Epic Leadership. Then Legendary Commander. Then, for level six, something nice, maybe Weapon Supremacy, just for kicks and giggles.
7) You take Ecclesiarch for your 3rd level feat, and Assemble the Horde for 6th.

Well, you're level six, so your leadership score, assuming you use the race above, which also gets invisibility at will, IIRC, Cha +10, including the level, so 28. You have enough money, so get a Cloak of Cha, +2, for a nice 30. So your leadership score is either 21 or 23 (16 from levels and Cha, +2 from Noble, +2 from Ecclesiarch, +2 from Improved Leadership, if it applies, and +1 for assemble the horde), so normally, you'd have, at worst, 60, 6, 3, 2, 1, 1. Legendary commander multiplies by 10, for 600, 60, 30, 20, 10, 10. Assemble the Horde gives you 730, 60, 30, 20, 10, 10. So, for damage, 860d10, if I make them all warriors with Great Bows. Or, I can make you take 70 sleep saves, by reducing everyone level 3+ by two, to make them adepts. You'll roll a one sooner or later. Or, I could start by making you take 40 Magic Missiles.
...

This is the stupidest build I've ever seen.

Not because it doesn't work, or because it isn't brilliant, but because it's just...kind of...stupid.

CycloneJoker

2011-02-24, 12:28 AM

Ok...so even if you stretched martial monk to allow you to take feats without meeting the prereqs, you are still getting fighter bonus feats from martial monk, of which none of the feats you suggested (outside of Weapon Supremacy) is. Epic Leadership (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicLeadership) isn't, Legendary Commander (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#legendaryCommander) isn't. Not sure about all the others, but I doubt Noble Birth or Ecclesiarch are either.

Noble and Ecclesiarch are level feats, not fighter ones. And Legendry Commander AND Epic Leadership are both Fighter Bonus Feats. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/classProgressions.htm#epicFighter)

...

This is the stupidest build I've ever see.

Not because it doesn't work, but because it's...stupid.

I know, I felt a little slimy when I made it.

Maeglin_Dubh

2011-02-24, 01:24 AM

How exactly does Soulknife/Monk Tashalatora work?

Rixx

2011-02-24, 01:30 AM

I don't hate monks.

Amnestic

2011-02-24, 01:36 AM

I must apologize, it does that around 15. I misremembered. Still pretty good, though, you probably won't like it. I need to be higher for the sleep thing. Some people don't think it works, but whatever.

Step 1) Bump your Charisma through the roof. For TheoryOp, let's just say something along the lines of Unseelie, Magic-Blooded, Draconic, Primordial, Half-Ogre, Incarnate Warforged, so you'd get around +6. Then be venerable, as Cha matters most. I don't know if all of those work together, this is off the top of my head.
Step 2) Get another helmet, as more books are coming.
3) Get Dragon 310. If you get where this is going, good. If you need RAW clarification, let me know.
4) Turn to page 45. Be a Martial Monk.
5) Have flaws. Take Noble Birth and Educated. If you can take Flaw feats after class feats, for your first class, take Improved Leadership. If not, oh well.
6) Your first monk feat is Epic Leadership. Then Legendary Commander. Then, for level six, something nice, maybe Weapon Supremacy, just for kicks and giggles.
7) You take Ecclesiarch for your 3rd level feat, and Assemble the Horde for 6th.

Well, you're level six, so your leadership score, assuming you use the race above, which also gets invisibility at will, IIRC, Cha +10, including the level, so 28. You have enough money, so get a Cloak of Cha, +2, for a nice 30. So your leadership score is either 21 or 23 (16 from levels and Cha, +2 from Noble, +2 from Ecclesiarch, +2 from Improved Leadership, if it applies, and +1 for assemble the horde), so normally, you'd have, at worst, 60, 6, 3, 2, 1, 1. Legendary commander multiplies by 10, for 600, 60, 30, 20, 10, 10. Assemble the Horde gives you 730, 60, 30, 20, 10, 10. So, for damage, 860d10, if I make them all warriors with Great Bows. Or, I can make you take 70 sleep saves, by reducing everyone level 3+ by two, to make them adepts. You'll roll a one sooner or later. Or, I could start by making you take 40 Magic Missiles.

Admittedly I don't have access to any of these feats so I might be missing something really big, but...are you doing this damage, or are your allies? If it's your allies, I'm not quite sure how you're going to get all these warriors into range of your desired target.

Fishy

2011-02-24, 04:55 AM

Warforged monk, and take either a level of Kensai or a Necklace of Natural Attacks.

Enchant your Unarmed Strike with the Morphing, Sizing and Shielding properties, and then turn your entire body into a sword.

Get an Armbow installed, become a sword that shoots lasers.

Leon

2011-02-24, 05:17 AM

I disagree on a lot of points, but the salient one is that this simply isn't what the OP wanted. He wants to know just how far the squeezing can get you, as far as I grok.

Yet i get the flak and the people who also like monks that posted don't.
Well it figures - Ive posted the opposite of what a large percentage of this board like to believe in despite it being true. And like everywhere else the majority have the floor for the most part or are at least the loudest heard most of the time.

Fishy

2011-02-24, 05:39 AM

Cool story, bro.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, the Alternative Class Features Thread (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872054/Alternative_Class_Features_III) is a great resource for this sort of stuff.

Just off the top of my head, the Hin Disciple substitution levels get you Underfoot Combat and then Confound the Big Folk way earlier than you can normally qualify for- which might be useful in some sort of Fine But Deadly build. Some reliable source of Compression or Reduce Person- or a bite from the savage were-weasel- combined with Iajutsu or Sneak Attack?

Killer Angel

2011-02-24, 05:53 AM

It's pretty easy, just buy partially charged wands and you're as powerful as the wizard! :smallwink:
Pleasedonthurtme

I won't hurt you, but nonetheless, it's still unfair from you... :smalltongue:

DarkEternal

2011-02-24, 07:53 AM

Eldariel

2011-02-24, 08:17 AM

Also, if you have a high level wizard in your party to cast Mighty Wallop(I think that's the name of the spell), both of your fists now do damage equal to the damage of a colossal creature's fists. Fun times.

Seriously, screw that spell.

Greater Mighty Wallop. Goes great with Enlightened Fist. But again, this thread was about straight Monk and what he can accomplish alone; none of this really applies (aside from Leadership, which I find cheating since...well, yeah, for obvious reasons).

FMArthur

2011-02-24, 08:59 AM

The only really awesome "monk" builds I have made were about monk unarmed damage. Usually they contained zero levels of Monk, because Tashalatora doesn't need any. Between that and Swordsage's entry about unarmed substitution, it makes me think that, like the Soulknife, the Monk's primary class features are only actually worth a trade for armor and weapon proficiency to begin with.

I just can't think of a single Monk idea that others don't do just as well if not better. They have all of its good things.

Tytalus

2011-02-24, 09:30 AM

UMD for Greater Mighty Wallop is pretty reasonable.

It sounds reasonable, but the problem is that it doesn't work out well in practice. Scrolls / wands are too expensive in the long run, and eternal wands have too terrible a caster level (5) to make this worth it.

Of course, a wizard/cleric in the party with Greater Mighty Wallop / Greater Magic Weapon works, but it's rather difficult to be self-sufficient in that respect. For Greater Magic Weapon, at least, there is the Tooth of Learje (ToM), but it's quite expensive.

CycloneJoker

2011-02-24, 12:09 PM

Admittedly I don't have access to any of these feats so I might be missing something really big, but...are you doing this damage, or are your allies? If it's your allies, I'm not quite sure how you're going to get all these warriors into range of your desired target.

My allies. A Composite Greatbow has the range 130'.

Also, I could have level four and five minions be Martial Monks with Distance Shot, but a better use would probably be Dragonwrought Kobolds.

I think I have the stupidest build EVER, outside of omnipotence/Omnicience/very near/Tainted Scholar.

Fox Box Socks

2011-02-24, 02:12 PM

The build is unbeatable...unless your target is indoors.

In which case you need to leave most of your followers at the door.

arguskos

2011-02-24, 02:35 PM

The build is unbeatable...unless your target is indoors.

In which case you need to leave most of your followers at the door.
Or, god forbid, has wind wall. :smallsigh:

Gavinfoxx

2011-02-24, 02:47 PM

Guys, the topic is "How far can we squeeze the exact monk class, using only things on that one character sheet, taking only monk levels, primarily going with obscure feats, equipment, tactics, traits, races, and alternate class features."

Stop digressing so much!

dextercorvia

2011-02-24, 02:56 PM

Even if you allow feats that you don't meet the prereq's for. Being level 21+ is not a prereq for Epic feats. You simply may not choose them unless you are.

This is similar to Martial Study/Stance. There is no prereq for the feat, but you can't choose a Maneuver unless you have an IL to support it.

Edit: Monks: Sacred Fist isn't too bad. It's more of a Cleric Nerf than a Monk buff, though.

JonestheSpy

2011-02-24, 04:12 PM

Tael

2011-02-24, 04:21 PM

Noble and Ecclesiarch are level feats, not fighter ones. And Legendry Commander AND Epic Leadership are both Fighter Bonus Feats. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/classProgressions.htm#epicFighter)

Err, guess again. That's the Epic Fighter Bonus Feat list. Those are not Fighter Bonus Feats, they're Epic Fighter Bonus Feats. Completely different thing. Build is still not legal, even accepting that ridiculous interpretation of Martial Monk.

Okay, somewhat on topic:

What do you think is preferable, trying to find every possible bit of splatbook cheese to tinker with so the Monk is decent, or adopting one of the many homebrew Monk fixes out there? Is going with the Dragon Magazine/splatbook stuff more "legitimate"?

Homebrew is by far preferred in my group. Good homebrewers are normally on par w/ WotC, and almost always better than Dragon material.

Adamantrue

2011-02-24, 04:40 PM

The best I've ever tried used the Halfling Monk Racial Variant for Skirmish instead of Flurry, and the Cobra Strike fighting style, along with some other oddball stuff. After that, lots of stuff from the Magic Item Compendium such as the Rogue's Vest or Skirmisher Boots, and some Magic Shuriken silliness that I found hilarious.

It was decent at hit & run, didn't make a bad scout, and provided an interesting flavor. Never went past level 12, though, so I don't know how well it would have held up.

Doc Roc

2011-02-24, 04:55 PM

Yet i get the flak and the people who also like monks that posted don't.
Well it figures - Ive posted the opposite of what a large percentage of this board like to believe in despite it being true. And like everywhere else the majority have the floor for the most part or are at least the loudest heard most of the time.

I do not think this is true, as I spend a vast portion of my time as the minority on these boards. I am almost always treated with respect, often kindness. In this spirit, I read what you wrote and I thought about it deeply like I do each time this issue comes up. I opted to continue to disagree due to a lack of what I perceive as evidence, not due to the number of people who agree with you. What you have received in no way resembles what I would call flak. All I offered was polite disagreement about the thrust of the conversation.

Further: I'm not saying I think monk should never be played, I'm just saying I don't think you are right when you argue that the game is natively well-balanced. Parties often are, very often, due to social contracts and a shared desire for a certain type of game. Sometimes, we have no such luck.

We should be able to count on the game itself to save us, when this happens, and I feel that most RPGs I have played do a very poor job. Monk is merely a favored punching bag in the community, and has gradually become vilified in part due to our love of the idea that it represents.

More in the spirit of the matter, I can produce a pretty slick, if somewhat bizarre, monk if anyone would like me to.

SurlySeraph

2011-02-24, 07:25 PM

Okay, somewhat on topic:

What do you think is preferable, trying to find every possible bit of splatbook cheese to tinker with so the Monk is decent, or adopting one of the many homebrew Monk fixes out there? Is going with the Dragon Magazine/splatbook stuff more "legitimate"?

Homebrew. With the exception of Tash, Unarmed Swordsage, and various PrCs, none of the official monk-stuff is all that good. It's very difficult to have a fun straight Monk past 6th level.

CycloneJoker

2011-02-24, 07:41 PM

The build is unbeatable...unless your target is indoors.

In which case you need to leave most of your followers at the door.
Send them in while waiting somewhere else. You're invisible.

Or, god forbid, has wind wall. :smallsigh:
Or cast sleep. Or a lot of Magic Missiles.

Err, guess again. That's the Epic Fighter Bonus Feat list. Those are not Fighter Bonus Feats, they're Epic Fighter Bonus Feats. Completely different thing. Build is still not legal, even accepting that ridiculous interpretation of Martial Monk.

Homebrew is by far preferred in my group. Good homebrewers are normally on par w/ WotC, and almost always better than Dragon material.

No, Epic fighter bonus feats are just bonus feats that can only be taken as epic Fighters. They are Bonus Feats for the Epic FIGHTER.

And it is NOT a ridiculous interpretation, I can see no other interpretation, by RAW. I can see a lot of RAI arguments, but no RAW. Nowhere does it say that you must qualify, therefor you needn't.

And I beg to differ on the homebrew. Most is pure garbage, and Dragon has plenty of cool things, like the Sidhe Scholar, the Gauntlet of Heartfelt Blows, Eldritch Claws, and Grappling Blast.

Amridell

2011-02-24, 07:52 PM

jiriku

2011-02-24, 07:52 PM

Oh Doc, please do. Your stuff always leads me down such interesting rabbit holes.

If homebrew is up for consideration, I have a homebrew monk in my sig that retains the authentic old-school monk flavor but competes honorably with the well-built martial classes. Fax Celestis and Doc/Penny Dreadful both have monk revisions that tread further afield but are fun to play. You can root through homebrew and find monks with martial maneuvers, monks with ki points, monks with psionics. Or you can splash'n'Tash and go psywar, as others have mentioned.

Dienekes

2011-02-24, 07:57 PM

No, Epic fighter bonus feats are just bonus feats that can only be taken as epic Fighters. They are Bonus Feats for the Epic FIGHTER.

And it is NOT a ridiculous interpretation, I can see no other interpretation, by RAW. I can see a lot of RAI arguments, but no RAW. Nowhere does it say that you must qualify, therefor you needn't.

I don't think it works this way, unless all those are on the Fighter bonus list which they're not. As written, it looks like at level 21 the epic Fighter bonus feats list completely replace the Fighter's bonus feat list.

Bonus Feats

The epic fighter gains a bonus feat (selected from the list of epic fighter bonus feats) every two levels after 20th.

The statement specifically calls out that this is the "list of epic fighter bonus feats" which is a direct distinction from the earlier fighter bonus feats list.

This is again assuming that the no prerequisites bit for Monk bonus feats carries over with these new feats which is vague in the wording given.

CycloneJoker

2011-02-24, 08:25 PM

I have a friend who plays a monk, without any extra books or abilities, and so far he's almost outshined our fighter (and this guy's got a +1 flaming longsword :smalleek:) in melee. I fail to see how monk is a bad class. However, for the record: they ARE a little too simple. They just gain class abilitiies by leveling up, so there are no optimization strategies (save for rigging your dice to fall on natural twenties every time).
What.

I don't think it works this way, unless all those are on the Fighter bonus list which they're not. As written, it looks like at level 21 the epic Fighter bonus feats list completely replace the Fighter's bonus feat list.

The statement specifically calls out that this is the "list of epic fighter bonus feats" which is a direct distinction from the earlier fighter bonus feats list.

This is again assuming that the no prerequisites bit for Monk bonus feats carries over with these new feats which is vague in the wording given.

Epic fighter bonus feats are a subset of fighter bonus feats. A Zhentarim Fighter is still a fighter. A Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian is still a Lion Totem Barbarian, and it is a Whirling Frenzy Barbarian. It is referring to the fighter bonus list, just they are Epic, and epic is an adjective used to refer to many different things in that book. An Epic Fighter is still a fighter. By your argument, and Epic Fighter, because it is refered to with the "Epic," is not a fighter. They are a list of Fighter Bonus Feats that just happen to be epic, and, because they love the Epic adjective in that book, called them epic, just like the Theurge and the Arcane Trickster both have entries there, just called "EPIC Mystic Theurge."

SurlySeraph

2011-02-24, 08:36 PM

More in the spirit of the matter, I can produce a pretty slick, if somewhat bizarre, monk if anyone would like me to.

Doooo iiiit.

Actually, side question. I've heard a few mentions of the "Fluffy" build around ToS. I have absolutely no idea what it is, other than that it's extremely powerful. Could you give a few details?

I have a friend who plays a monk, without any extra books or abilities, and so far he's almost outshined our fighter (and this guy's got a +1 flaming longsword :smalleek:) in melee. I fail to see how monk is a bad class. However, for the record: they ARE a little too simple. They just gain class abilitiies by leveling up, so there are no optimization strategies (save for rigging your dice to fall on natural twenties every time).

What level are you? If a +1 flaming longsword is a big deal, either you're at very low level or in a very low-wealth game. Monks do alright in very low-wealth games, though Druids and Sorcs and other casters stomp the floor with them.

The issue is that most Monk class features aren't very good. It doesn't matter that you're gaining class abilities when those abilities are like "slightly less likely to die when falling from great heights"; that's a lot less useful than, say, sneak attack. Or, ya know, spells.

No, Epic fighter bonus feats are just bonus feats that can only be taken as epic Fighters. They are Bonus Feats for the Epic FIGHTER.

And it is NOT a ridiculous interpretation, I can see no other interpretation, by RAW. I can see a lot of RAI arguments, but no RAW. Nowhere does it say that you must qualify, therefor you needn't.

It's not completely ridiculous, but it's extremely shaky.

Acquiring Epic Feats:

Characters gain epic feats in the following ways:

At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the character may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat.

Each character class gains bonus epic feats according to the class description. These feats must be selected from the list of bonus epic feats for that class.

Prerequisites

Most epic feats have prerequisites. A character must have the listed ability score, feat, skill, class feature, or base attack modifier in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain an epic feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite, just as with regular feats. A prerequisite expressed as a numerical value is a minimum; any value higher than the one given also meets the prerequisite. A character can’t use an epic feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.

Thus, being 21st level is not a "prerequisite" for taking epic feats as in the official game term, but it's nonetheless required. Thus, Martial Monk's clause "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them" doesn't negate the need to be 21st level, because being 21st level is not a "prerequisite."

The least controversial way I know of to get epic feats pre-epic is Dragonwrought Kobold, because of the clause "Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels." That bypasses the class levels issue entirely. It's also a rarely accepted interpretation, even though Dragonwrought Kobolds are dragons -> old dragons can choose epic feats without class levels -> Old Dragonwrought Kobolds can take epic feats is pretty straightforward.

In short, you're going to have to present some pretty strong evidence that being 21st level is a "prerequisite" as in the game term to convince me here.

T.G. Oskar

2011-02-24, 08:51 PM

Homebrew. With the exception of Tash, Unarmed Swordsage, and various PrCs, none of the official monk-stuff is all that good. It's very difficult to have a fun straight Monk past 6th level.

Invisible Fist isn't a PrC, isn't part of Tashalatora (and heck, it offers the only thing Tashalatora can't offer, which is invisibility) and isn't unarmed Swordsage. It arguably extends the life of a Monk up to 9th level if you're really, really, really interested in Blink. From there, you can go Tattooed Monk (with a dip in Rogue if you're interested in class skills and recovering Evasion; else get ring of Evasion) or Psionic Fist/of Zuoken or try to stomach the rest of the 11 levels. You can extend slightly more the levels if you get Sun School for the "Dim Door strike" technique, but that's really stretching it and you need some skill to make it worthwhile (though, if interested, you may get Greater Flurry if that rocks your boat).

So while it's not false, it's certainly possible to work with Monk beyond 6th level, but you need something to make it possible and it will still get you in trouble by around 11th level, where Wizards get Limited Wish and Clerics get mass buff spells and whatnot. Or when ToB characters get 6th level maneuvers which are very pretty.

CycloneJoker

2011-02-24, 08:51 PM

It's not completely ridiculous, but it's extremely shaky.

Thus, being 21st level is not a "prerequisite" for taking epic feats as in the official game term, but it's nonetheless required. Thus, Martial Monk's clause "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them" doesn't negate the need to be 21st level, because being 21st level is not a "prerequisite."

The least controversial way I know of to get epic feats pre-epic is Dragonwrought Kobold, because of the clause "Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels." That bypasses the class levels issue entirely. It's also a rarely accepted interpretation, even though Dragonwrought Kobolds are dragons -> old dragons can choose epic feats without class levels -> Old Dragonwrought Kobolds can take epic feats is pretty straightforward.

In short, you're going to have to present some pretty strong evidence that being 21st level is a "prerequisite" as in the game term to convince me here.

Um, no. I see no possible counter-arguments to the no pre-reqs.

Yeah, that's specifically for LEVELING, not bonus feats. I'm still good.

Doc Roc

2011-02-24, 08:56 PM

Um, no. I see no possible counter-arguments to the no pre-reqs.

Yeah, that's specifically for LEVELING, not bonus feats. I'm still good.

Except for the part where you use Dragon, which is banned by literally every GM I've met, excluding limited access to the Dragon Compendium. So yeah, you're good after a fashion? Maybe? For limited TO purposes?

CycloneJoker

2011-02-24, 09:00 PM

Except for the part where you use Dragon, which is banned by literally every GM I've met, excluding limited access to the Dragon Compendium. So yeah, you're good after a fashion? Maybe? For limited TO purposes?

Of course! I'd never be stupid enough to use this in a game, unless the DM wants to do this level of cheese, in which case, it's either this or Tainted Scholar. I even stated this earlier.

This was about making them good, and I did just that. There was never a "not busted" requirement. If "make them good, but not busted" was required, then I'd just say Weapon Supremacy and the like, or just Imp. Grapple, Legendary Grappler, Jotunbrud, and the like, but this was not the requirement.

Doc Roc

2011-02-24, 09:04 PM

Of course! I'd never be stupid enough to use this in a game, unless the DM wants to do this level of cheese, in which case, it's either this or Tainted Scholar. I even stated this earlier.

This was about making them good, and I did just that. There was never a "not busted" requirement. If "make them good, but not busted" was required, then I'd just say Weapon Supremacy and the like, or just Imp. Grapple, Legendary Grappler, Jotunbrud, and the like, but this was not the requirement.

:: stretches :: Oh oh, good but not totally busted. Ah.... It's going to be hard. But I think, I think... Yes.

Okay, gentle-folk. Hold please. We'll be using the sandwich trick, and all non-dragon sources. Anyone have a favored choice for natural-attack mob?

jiriku

2011-02-24, 09:08 PM

Gargoyles are cute. So are chronotyrnyns. Take your pick.

CycloneJoker

2011-02-24, 09:14 PM

:: stretches :: Oh oh, good but not totally busted. Ah.... It's going to be hard. But I think, I think... Yes.

Okay, gentle-folk. Hold please. We'll be using the sandwich trick, and all non-dragon sources. Anyone have a favored choice for natural-attack mob?

This what you mean? (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=146.0)

Doc Roc

2011-02-24, 09:41 PM

This what you mean? (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=146.0)

I was thinking of something a little different, actually.

SurlySeraph

2011-02-24, 09:44 PM

Um, no. I see no possible counter-arguments to the no pre-reqs.

Yeah, that's specifically for LEVELING, not bonus feats. I'm still good.

"Characters gain epic feats in the following ways: At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the character may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat. Each character class gains bonus epic feats according to the class description."

Bonus feats are covered in "Acquiring Epic Feats," which also includes the need to be 21st level. Which isn't in "Prerequisites." You're still on shaky ground.
I'm talking Curmudgeon-level adherence to RAW here; pretty much any reasonable person would call being 21st level a prerequisite, but by very strict RAW it isn't.

Invisible Fist isn't a PrC, isn't part of Tashalatora (and heck, it offers the only thing Tashalatora can't offer, which is invisibility) and isn't unarmed Swordsage. It arguably extends the life of a Monk up to 9th level if you're really, really, really interested in Blink.

Point. Dark Moon Invisible Fist Monk would be perfectly good up to 9th. Maybe 11th, Greater Flurry is nice. Maybe even 12th; I forget whether Dark Moon's replacement for Abundant Step is usable more than once per day or not. Nice lead-in to Telflammar Shadowlord, too.

:: stretches :: Oh oh, good but not totally busted. Ah.... It's going to be hard. But I think, I think... Yes.

Okay, gentle-folk. Hold please. We'll be using the sandwich trick, and all non-dragon sources. Anyone have a favored choice for natural-attack mob?

Anthropomorphic Giant Squid.

Doc Roc

2011-02-24, 10:00 PM

Point. Dark Moon Invisible Fist Monk would be perfectly good up to 9th. Maybe 11th, Greater Flurry is nice. Maybe even 12th; I forget whether Dark Moon's replacement for Abundant Step is usable more than once per day or not. Nice lead-in to Telflammar Shadowlord, too.

Also a good lead-in to... well, whatever we end up sandwich-tricking into.

JaronK

2011-02-25, 09:37 PM

Here's a nasty Monk build that few people use: note that Shuriken are thrown weapons (so they're not destroyed when they hit) but are enchanted like ammunition. Take a Necropolitan Monk, preferably small (Halfling, Strongheart Halfling, Whispergnome, something like that). Make sure you were turned into a Necropolitan by a Dread Necromancer 8 or a UA Variant Wizard 1 in a desecrated evil alter area, so your HD are now D12+4 and you have a free +4 Enhancement Bonus to Str and Dex. Your MAD problems are seriously reduced now since you don't need Con at all (and you won't need Str), plus your Dex is adequately boosted for a good long time.

Now, have your Shurikens enchanted as Lifedrinkers (the DMG special weapon) so they do two negative levels with every hit. You can flurry with them, which helps. Best to enchant them to increase your to hit chance if possible... I'd consider the Distance and Returning enchantments (you don't have to go fetch them after every fight), and if you can dip a level of Unarmed Swordsage you could use that enchantment that gives +3 to hit whenever you're in a stance of the appropriate school. Shou Disciple levels would also help here, as would Master Thrower for obvious reasons, but right now we're focused on Monk.

So, by level 11 if you took TWF, ITWF, and Rapid Shot you're firing off 7 shots a round, each of which should have little trouble hitting (you're small, pumping dex, and often hidden when you start the first shot, plus every hit reduces their defenses in general). That's as much as 14 negative levels per round when you open up on the enemy. That's not too shabby at all, and should let you easily handle the vast majority of living enemies. With the Lifesight feat you'd be one heck of a scout, too.

EDIT: Just noticed Shuriken are destroyed after use... so unless there's a way around that, this won't work so good.

JaronK