Tainted Scholar Question

[Aemoh87]

I wanna know about Tainted Scholar optimization. I need the run down because a player wants to play it and I need to tell him if it's going to fly or not. He is very accepting of the fact it might be over powered, and if I say no he has another character (Warlock/Warblade... I know it makes no sense but he loves it) so you should let me know how they get OP.

[Doc Roc]

Say no. Tainted Scholar is in the same weight-class as Incantatrix. Unless you like spell DCs on the order of 60-70. Conservatively guessing at an unoptimized result.

[Tyndmyr]

Say no. Tainted Scholar is in the same weight-class as Incantatrix. Unless you like spell DCs on the order of 60-70. Conservatively guessing at an unoptimized result.

I'd place it higher than Incantatrix. Incantatrix I'll actually allow in games.

If you're going to ban any class in D&D 3.5, ban Tainted Scholar.

[Aemoh87]

How do they avoid getting to Tainted?

Also some specifics would help so I know why I should ban it exactly. And then say if you don't do this, it's not banned.

[Doc Roc]

How do they avoid getting to Tainted?

Also some specifics would help so I know why I should ban it exactly. And then say if you don't do this, it's not banned.

You avoid getting too tainted by becoming a necropolitan when you feel you are tainted enough, or you simply cackle madly and accept your character's eventual fate as a joyous outcome. Having opted repeatedly for the latter, I still feel it is unspeakably powerful.

To provide some additional evidence, I think it was one of the first bans in the ToS.

[Tyndmyr]

It's a class that negates the downsides of taint while heaping you with positives. It gives you more spells, boosts your spell DCs, and so on. That's just what it does. Everything about the class turns taint into an unmitigatedly good thing for your character.

Too much is not a serious concern.

Edit to clarify: Too much is easily avoidable. If it is not avoided, it is still not balanced. Ridiculous power for half a campaign is not balanced out by death. It's still imbalanced.

[FMArthur]

Tainted Scholar allows nigh-infinite save DCs and spells per day with very easy steps taken. It gets this broken because it's built on a shaky, unreliable, poorly-balanced and poorly-written foundation called the Taint system.

[Urpriest]

Necropolitan is a controversial solution. The entry on taint says that undead gain a fixed amount of taint. Some people interpret that as saying that undead only ever have that much, others that they gain that much extra. The actual text is ambiguous, since the guy writing it didn't understand that anything that monsters can do, PCs can do. A common problem in 3.5.

That said, it's really pretty manageable as far as I understand it. Yes you have a chance of getting more taint when casting a spell, but if you start out reasonably low enough (the bottom threshold of Severe for instance) then you need never fear being NPCified as long as you keep a source of Restoration handy.

[Aemoh87]

Doesn't taint eventually make your character unplayable? And is becoming a necropolitian the only way they avoid this fate?

I thought they could just go infinitely high with taint.

[Telonius]

How do they avoid getting to Tainted?

Also some specifics would help so I know why I should ban it exactly. And then say if you don't do this, it's not banned.

Cleric cohort can whittle down the taint by various methods.

Take a standard high-Wis character. Bump up his Wisdom through items and stat increases. (Why not play him as Venerable just for the heck of it?) Voluntarily fail your Taint saves until he's about 10 shy of his maximum taint. Cower in fear as your low-level character is cranking out Phantasmal Killer spells with saves in the upper 40s. It gets to the point where if the target has no spell resistance, it is toast unless it rolls a 20.

[Aemoh87]

It's starting to sound like this is not a fixable issue.

[imperialspectre]

It's very much not. Doc Roc banned Tainted Scholar before ToS even started - it was on the original ban list, which was about a fourth as long as the most recent one.

Friends don't let friends use Tainted Scholar. Stronger than Incantatrix, stronger than Dweomerkeeper, maybe slightly stronger than Planar Shepherd, about as strong as Beholder Mage.

[Aemoh87]

anyone have a link to the "ToS"?

[imperialspectre]

The original Test of Spite thread was here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113644).

Sequels were posted here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6885289#post6885289), here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7503776), and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150821&highlight=test+spite).

[Tyger]

Another way for the character to avoid the negatives of Taint is to acquire the Evil subtype, which can be done via a LA 0 ritual... I think it costs about 20K gold.

The problem you run into is that every spell the cast earns them a point of taint. So a smart Tainted Scholar just stays home and casts every spell he has every day, for a year. Then, when his Taint is 1000000+, and he gets +1000 spells of every level to memorize each day and the save DC for his spells is 250,000, he becomes a god. In the meantime, he wrecks the campaign.

It is arguably the most powerful (brokenly so) PrC in the game. It is, frankly, more in the order of "Pun Pun" broken than "too strong like the Incantatrix" broken.

[Thurbane]

Tainted Scholar allows nigh-infinite save DCs and spells per day with very easy steps taken. It gets this broken because it's built on a shaky, unreliable, poorly-balanced and poorly-written foundation called the Taint system.
With some Cancer Mage, Illumian and Festering Rage, could you combine NI DCs with NI bonus spells? :smallbiggrin:

[Urpriest]

With some Cancer Mage, Illumian and Festering Rage, could you combine NI DCs with NI bonus spells? :smallbiggrin:

You've already got them from Taint, since it runs your bonus spells.

However, whether you can actually get it to NI levels (as opposed to just godlike levels) is rather debatable, and depends on how you read the rules for becoming undead or [Evil] while tainted.

[Scorpions__]

One of my players (see signature) wanted to play a Tainted Scholar, so I just tampered with the equations and worked this out, it's been pretty much right on for relative balance to the party.


Spell DC = 10 + 1/5 Corruption + Spell level
Bonus Spell Effective Score = 1/4 Depravity


As for Necropolitan, just rule that as an undead he'll have a set amount of taint.

The most troubling bit that's come from the character in my experience is the amount of extra damage he can grant all the other party members in a fight; a fair number of d6s.

Still, once you work out the equations to something more reasonable it becomes much more balanced.






DM[F]R

[Aemoh87]

This thread is depressing... especially since Tainted Scholar has such cool fluff.

[NichG]

An easy fix would be to limit the amount of Taint one can benefit from for the purposes of the class to some function of the character's level in Tainted Scholar (say, max effective Taint = 3/4 level, or level/2, or something). It basically makes Tainted Scholar a way to avoid MAD on certain things, not a way to get disgustingly high DCs.

[Doc Roc]

This thread is depressing... especially since Tainted Scholar has such cool fluff.

Actually, I felt it was one of the few times where fluff, power, and function married perfectly. A Tainted Scholar truly is a nightmare from before-times.

[Tyndmyr]

Actually, I felt it was one of the few times where fluff, power, and function married perfectly. A Tainted Scholar truly is a nightmare from before-times.

It's a fun idea if balance isn't a significant concern. Say...a solo campaign or the like.

That said, it's the single class I explicitly ban by name in every campaign I run. I'd add Beholder Mage to the list if there were any possibility of players playing as Beholders in my campaigns, but other than that, I allow every other class in the books. It's that horrifically broken, and not in a way that requires creative combos with other things. Sure, you *can* do creative combos if you wish it, but you'll still be obscenely powerful by just taking the class and casting spells.

[Aemoh87]

You don't ban the P.Shep? I suppose it's only terrifying in Eberron.

[Tyndmyr]

Oh, it's very good, I assure you, but I allow all the big three. They are quite potent, but still doable in a game in which other party members are encouraged to optimize a fair bit.

Tainted Scholar and Beholder Mage sort of break everything by default.

[Greenish]

You don't ban the P.Shep? I suppose it's only terrifying in Eberron.It's druid+++ in any setting.

[The Glyphstone]

You don't ban the P.Shep? I suppose it's only terrifying in Eberron.

It's just as terrifying out of Ebberon. If you're using Manual of the Planes, the Plane of Dreams still has the Fast-Time trait. Even in core, the Plane of Fire still has Efreets to Wildshape into. It's just terrifying in fewer ways simultaneously.

[dextercorvia]

I was reading through TS the other day, and I couldn't find this anywhere. Did HoH update the Taint rules so that Taint doesn't apply penalties to your Con/Wis?

Also, how do you get free corruption? Depravity is easy since you get that from casting.

[Telonius]

I was reading through TS the other day, and I couldn't find this anywhere. Did HoH update the Taint rules so that Taint doesn't apply penalties to your Con/Wis?

Also, how do you get free corruption? Depravity is easy since you get that from casting.

In HoH, Taint does not apply any penalties to Con or Wis. That's only listed in Unearthed Arcana. Page 63 of HoH gives a list of the thresholds of bad corruption and depravity effects. These are much, much higher than what a character would be able to survive using the UA rules. Taint score equal to the Con or Wis is only considered Moderate taint. You'd typically have to get a taint score over three times more than the relevant ability score to end up dead or insane.

[Aemoh87]

I found a possible Tainted Scholar fix, it involves playing sound bites of the song "tainted love" every time they take an action. This would severely limit their capabilities.

[Doc Roc]

I found a possible Tainted Scholar fix, it involves playing sound bites of the song "tainted love" every time they take an action. This would severely limit their capabilities.

Are you kidding? I'd never play anything else!

[Aemoh87]

Well then we would have fun, and everyone else would be regretting the fact that their character doesn't include references to 80's pop.

[Keld Denar]

Bonus points if you get the version of the song from Coneheads!

[dextercorvia]

In HoH, Taint does not apply any penalties to Con or Wis. That's only listed in Unearthed Arcana. Page 63 of HoH gives a list of the thresholds of bad corruption and depravity effects. These are much, much higher than what a character would be able to survive using the UA rules. Taint score equal to the Con or Wis is only considered Moderate taint. You'd typically have to get a taint score over three times more than the relevant ability score to end up dead or insane.

I saw those tables, and assumed it was the case, but I couldn't find a "This supercedes" rule. Thanks.

[AtomicKitKat]

Necropolitan, or indeed, most ways to become immune to the drawbacks(excluding becoming an evil outsider) of taint either nullify or reduce the benefits of Tainted Scholar. Mostly anything involving Constitution damage(note that the ability that lets you use Constitution damage in place of higher level spell slots does not state what happens if you have a Constitution score but are immune to the damage, unlike Hellfire Warlock) or drawing of blood.

That being said, I found most of the "Secrets" rather blah. I'd rather take 5 extra 1st/2nd level slots(if they didn't prevent you from selecting the same secret more than once), or if I was playing a Blaster, the Blood-seeking one.:smallannoyed:

[monkeyslippers]

Couldnt you just say the taint dumps at the end of the day?

[dextercorvia]

Couldnt you just say the taint dumps at the end of the day?

That kind of goes against the intention of Taint. It is supposed to be the accumulated corruption of evil upon your body and mind. It wouldn't be very believable if it just washed away at the end of the day.