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Anonomuss
2011-02-23, 04:52 PM
AngryDM (http://angrydm.com) recently posted an article (http://angrydm.com/2011/02/tearing-4e-a-new-one-short-rests-and-encounter-resources/) suggesting that 4e failed to deal with the issue of the "15 minute workday", and suggested a few measures that might address the idea that the "15 minute workday" remains the optimal choice for the average adventuring party. More specifically:



1.Place a restriction on how many healing surges a PC can spend outside of encounters. For instance, a PC can only spend two healing surges at the end of a short rest and they cannot take another short rest until they’ve had another encounter first.

2.In order to use their best abilities, the PCs need to build adrenaline or momentum or whatever you want to call it. Mechanically, it works like this: after an extended rest, a player only has access to one daily attack power – the lowest level one. After each encounter, during a short rest, he gains access to the next highest level one. If he has two powers of the same level, he can choose which one becomes available. The players can horde these powers or use them as they become available.


I really enjoyed reading the article, and I thought much of what he suggests and proposes is quite sensible and well reasoned, so I thought I'd share it here. In particular I quite liked the suggetions he made in the quote above.

To me, the first suggestion makes a fair amount of sense from a narrative standpoint and also with getting players to become more conscious of the resources available to them.

Narratively, it makes sense that, at the end of an encounter, a character who has been knocked unconscious and hasn't been magically healed is not going to be in the same condition as one who, although they might have taken the same damage, has been filled with the radiant light of a god. It also poses the dilema of whether, once the post encounter short rest has taken place, some of the newly refreshed magical healing should be used on a heavily injured character. It also makes this choice more meaningful, as it could be the difference between a character dropping right away to a lucky critical swing, or a hidden trap, but they could also go the entire next encounter without suffering a serious injury, and the healing might be best served elsewhere.

The second suggestion would probably be interesting to try, but might need some refinement. Although I like the idea that as the encounters continue, the players have less healing to draw upon, but more damage dealing capacity, becoming more desperate in their swings, and each injury begin to take its toll. The risk/reward balance is a compelling dynamic, which I think could be quite compelling. It would certainly need to be adjusted in games where each adventuring day consists of a few higher level encounters though. Maybe the Daily Powers could be unlocked at certain different levels of depletion of healing surges, representing a character being more reserved, as they haven't fully been drawn into the heart of battles, so they haven't as much adrenalin coursing through their systems.

I've never yet actually come across the problem of my players taking advantage of the "15 minute workday", so the suggestions aren't quite as relevant to me as they could be. What do you guys think? Has it been a problem for you in 4e?

Amnestic
2011-02-23, 05:52 PM
I'm not sure why the 15 minute workday is a problem. Different to the idea of conserving your powers and effectively turning all Dailies into Encounters, yes, but is that really such an issue? You can just balance your fights around that fact and continue on your merry quest. Narratively it's a little silly but that's hardly on the game, it's on the DM who's crafting the narrative, surely.

While the ideas are interesting and probably not too bad all things considered, I'm not sure they're necessary. I find myself indifferent towards them. :smalltongue:

Kurald Galain
2011-02-23, 05:53 PM
Well....

It is clear to me that the 4E ruleset encourages using your most powerful attacks in the first encounter, and then resting until they become available again. There are various haphazard patches in RAW that entirely fail to deal with this, and the only real solution is having a DM (or adventure) that outright vetos it.

Of course, if you're playing with the right kind of people, this problem will never come up. A 15-minute workday is clear and obvious metagaming.

Regarding ADM's suggestions - I don't see the point of the first. In my experience, characters only rarely need to spend more than two healing surges after an encounter, as long as there's a leader in the party. Also, this rule encourages PCs to pick a fight with something easy, so they can heal.
(your own comment starts with "narratively, it makes sense that..." but 4E rules aren't based on narratively making sense in the first place, so that doesn't help)

The second suggestion works, assuming a party of at least level 5, and assuming only combat encounters count towards "gaining" dailies. It is not generally the case, however, that "as the encounters continue, the players have less healing to draw upon". There are also certain classes for whom the lower-level dailies are more powerful than the higher ones.

To throw out some other suggestions, there's random encounters. Simply put, if the PCs rest in a dangerous area, have them get attacked by whatever. Note that this can get old really quick, but it should get the message across that wherever the PCs are now, they cannot rest.

Second, there's limited resources. The PCs are in the wilderness and have three food rations each. Every extended rest consumes one. That means they had better find their way back to civilization before their food runs out. This solution does go straight against 4E philosophy, and you'd have to ban some infinite-food-giving items, as well as change the starvation rules.

dsmiles
2011-02-23, 06:00 PM
I absolutely hate the idea of a "15 minute workday" (unless I still get paid for a full day :smallbiggrin:).

Seriously, though. There are other ways of dealing with it. Time-sensitive storylines, for one.

Another would be to find a group that likes to have their characters adventure from sunup to sundown (or reversed, if they're nocturnal types or drow). That's the kind of group I play in, and if anyone ever tried the "15 minute workday" approach, the rest of the group would have no sympathy as they walked away, and left that character behind.

The more I read about some of the problems other DMs have with DnD, the more I appreciate the group I'm in. :smallbiggrin:

RebelRogue
2011-02-23, 06:11 PM
I've had some succes in a PbP using a 'scene' system instead of a 'day based' one, somewhat comparable to how time is tracked in WoD.

In short, instead of replenishing hp, healing surges, Daily powers etc. when the characters sleep, it happens when a predefined scene or act of the story is finished - so these rewards are story-driven, and the PCs have a specific set of resources to get through each scene/act. This obviously does not work well with all types of scenarios - a sandbox game would probably be awkward with this, but for those action-packed, half-railroady games where the story of the game progresses in a series of events, it can work great.

DeltaEmil
2011-02-23, 06:23 PM
Is this thread about how to prevent the 15-minute workday from happening again for 4th edition?
Most players will use extended rests after the 1st encounter because they generally feel that they only can survive if they have access to their most powerful abilities. It's important then to make the first battles not so difficult that the players will think that they can only win if they use their most deadliest techniques, and should conserve at least some of their superjuice for the more difficult one that lay ahead. Of course, there should also be a primarily ingame reason for why they should keep on instead of going to regenerate their superpowers in safety away.
Various combats and dramatic action scenes that culminates towards the climatic and interesting encounter the players want to reach without going around sleeping inbetween for whatever reason (just because they can, or out of necessity) is still the one thing that only a gm can do.

4th edition has just made it that without your dailies, you'd still be at somewhat 80% efficiency (more or less, and not an exact number). But it's the players who decide if they're happy with being at (theoretical) 80% of their potential.

Zaydos
2011-02-23, 06:34 PM
When I played 4e I never used dailies first encounter, or second encounter, or until the Obvious Boss Battle and sometimes not then (it was over too quick).

Then again I hate the 15 minute workday in game and I've been known to go orc hunting (in 3.0) with a crossbow as a Lv 1 wizard because one of the fighters had walked into too many traps (the hallway is trapped and leads in a circle, you don't need to walk all the way down it) and the fighters were resting. So I might be abnormal.

Most players I know will retreat and rest before a boss battle... last two times they did that I fixed things by either having the boss gather more minions (because he had minions that they saw returning in the night; and I just threw in an extra elite mook), or had the bad guy skip town with most of the loot. That and random encounters and you usually don't have the problem barring 3.5 Rope Trick (for example I've never seen it come up in 4e; then again I've seen all of one hard encounter in 4e that wasn't the DM throwing upper paragon creatures at lower heroic characters on a regular basis).

Fox Box Socks
2011-02-23, 06:46 PM
The 15 minute workday has been plaguing D&D since its inception. 4e took an axe to its knees by nerfing the hell out of long-distance teleportation magic, but I'm still convinced that the only way to really combat it to enforce time limits on dungeon crawls and impose serious consequences for taking a 6 hour break halfway through.

PCs cleaning out a goblin burrow, and are hunting the bounty on the chieftan's head? If they leave, the goblins are going to realize they are no match, pack up all their treasure, and move somewhere else. Tracking them is no good either, as the goblins have a six hour head start. All that gold and XP is gone, and when the PCs slink back to their patron to report, he chastises them for being so stupid; when the goblins strike again (and they will), they're sure to be smarter, stronger, and better prepared to repel invaders.

You can't just leave dungeons halfway through. There are consequences.

OracleofWuffing
2011-02-23, 06:54 PM
But... You need to wait twelve hours between extended rests. It's the Twelve-hour, fifteen minute workday now. :smalltongue:

I mean, yeah, it's still a fifteen minute workday, just that you say "Okay, we'll do nothing for twelve hours," before you say, "And now we're sleeping! Woot-woot action point! Woot-woot dailies!" And I know that saying it's the DM's job to make something happen during those twelve hours doesn't address the problem, but the alternative is designating a character as Leeroy Jenkins who constantly starts encounters when everyone else wants to take an extended rest after twelve hours of doing nothing because they stepped on a worm.

That said, I have a huge problem where I still have my dailies unused when it's time to extended rest. :smallredface: I don't do well with using limited resources.

Jothki
2011-02-23, 07:01 PM
Is there any system that relies heavily on resource management that doesn't encourage a 15 minute workday?

Aidan305
2011-02-23, 07:13 PM
Personally I think the main thing that encourages the 15-minute workday in 4th ed is the Healing Surges. While theoretically designed to allow parties to venture further in to the dungeons, I've found that they instead place a limit on how far a group can go without stopping to rest. Generally about five encounters in my experience.

lesser_minion
2011-02-23, 07:30 PM
The job of a rule set is to be free of holes and quirks, and to provide the DM with the tools needed to keep the game balanced, without resorting to a fix that is either unfair (DM fiat), or that damages the game (or part of it) in some other way.

It is absolutely not the job of the ruleset to deliberately invalidate certain strategies for the sole reason that certain people find them distasteful. Only to ensure that the strategy can be countered fairly and safely.

As far as I can tell, 4e's handling of the fifteen minute workday is pretty decent.

The actual 15-minute workday problem (as the 4e designers seem to have correctly identified) is that in previous editions, certain abilities available to characters basically made it impossible to fairly counter the strategy without limiting the range of scenarios possible (a relatively static dungeon with a forgiving (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe) time limit, for example, should be an entirely legitimate adventure. In 3e, it wasn't).

The 15-minute workday doesn't give an advantage because of a hole or a quirk in the rules -- even in the real world, it's generally considered helpful to be well-rested when you go into a fight. So the fact that it also works within the rules is not actually a problem. Making too much effort to prevent it from working within the system would come across as entirely arbitrary to the players.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-02-23, 07:34 PM
But... You need to wait twelve hours between extended rests. It's the Twelve-hour, fifteen minute workday now. :smalltongue:
Exactly.

I think Angry DM is coming at this from the wrong angle. What, exactly, is he trying to fix? Any time you have a resource management game where recharging is possible it is always optimal to recharge before your next Encounter. Whether that recharge is in 6 hours, 12 hours, or a week, that's still going to be the strategy. The usual check - time pressure - is explicitly discounted by Angry DM as being a sort of Rule Zero cheat. Bizarre.

Angry DM has decided instead to propose Grinding as a fix: unless you have X Encounters per day you cannot use your character to his full potential. Now, instead of allowing Players to rest, he will encourage them to find easy Encounters before hitting the Big Boss. I think the cure here is worse than the disease.

Structuring stories such that Players can't spend a week going through a dungeon isn't hard and it's effective.

Sine
2011-02-23, 07:49 PM
The job of a rule set is to be free of holes and quirks, and to provide the DM with the tools needed to keep the game balanced, without resorting to a fix that is either unfair (DM fiat), or that damages the game (or part of it) in some other way.
Agreed.


As far as I can tell, 4e's handling of the fifteen minute workday is absolutely spot on.
Not agreed. The 4e devs gave PCs an action point after every second encounter, which would have given 4e players a reason to not extendo-rest after every fight possible. Except that then they went ahead and gave PCs an action point after each and every extendo-rest. :smallannoyed:

Anywho, the five minute workday hasn't been a problem so far in my group, though we're all aware of the phenomenon. But I don't like depending on "don't be a ****" to have a fun game, and like you say it's the ruleset's job to be free of holes. So here's the simple house rule I've been using:

PCs don't get an AP after extended rests, but they earn one after every encounter. I'm not sure that, tactically speaking, it provides enough of a reason to keep fighting, but I like it. And as a fringe benefit, we never start a session with the "Was last session's encounter an even one, or an odd one? Did I spend an AP last time or not?" shenanigans anymore. It sounds silly, but it was so annoying. :smalltongue:

VirOath
2011-02-23, 07:50 PM
I still don't understand the concept of how people run into the 15 minute workday with 4e. If you have players that are trying to rest after every encounter to get back their dailies because they go nova every fight, throw encounters at them, don't make that an option.

If you can't do the above because players are out of all resources after every encounter then maybe you should take a look at what you are throwing at them in the first place.

Encounter Powers are meant to be used a key and useful points in a fight. Dailies are the fall back "OH SHI-" powers, as in Hi, I'm about to die. If they are wasting their dailies and wanting to get them back to make every encounter a joke, punish them for their poor planning.

Suedars
2011-02-23, 07:51 PM
I've had some succes in a PbP using a 'scene' system instead of a 'day based' one, somewhat comparable to how time is tracked in WoD.

In short, instead of replenishing hp, healing surges, Daily powers etc. when the characters sleep, it happens when a predefined scene or act of the story is finished - so these rewards are story-driven, and the PCs have a specific set of resources to get through each scene/act. This obviously does not work well with all types of scenarios - a sandbox game would probably be awkward with this, but for those action-packed, half-railroady games where the story of the game progresses in a series of events, it can work great.

This is definitely the way to go. In fact, for quite a while during 4e's development, dailies were based off of narrative time (in fact encounter powers are an artifact of this, as evidenced by them being based off narrative time but dailies being based off of real time). Unfortunately the narrative model was scrapped due to being somewhat unfriendly for dungeon crawls.

Putting it back in is fairly simple, even in sandbox games. Sandbox games still have structure, they just have more player freedom for what that structure contains. For example, in the Dark Sun game I'm running, things started off fairly constrained, with the players starting play as gladatorial slaves, and then escaping when a beast got loose and destroyed part of the wall of the arena. Their three challenges in the arena, as well as the skill challenge to shake off pursuers as they escaped were all individual encounters in an act.

Afterwards they decided to serve as guards for a merchant caravan, since it seemed like an easy way to get out of town. Again, the journey was a single act. They needed employment in their new city, and decided to work in service of the city as mercenaries. They've currently been sent out into the field to test themselves, which is another act.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-24, 03:52 AM
I still don't understand the concept of how people run into the 15 minute workday with 4e. If you have players that are trying to rest after every encounter to get back their dailies because they go nova every fight, throw encounters at them, don't make that an option.
Well, there you've answered your own question. If you do make that an option (because not all DMs know not to) then it is automatically the best option.


Dailies are the fall back "OH SHI-" powers, as in Hi, I'm about to die.
Really? What about the first-turn opening nova?

Anonomuss
2011-02-24, 03:53 AM
I think Angry DM is coming at this from the wrong angle. What, exactly, is he trying to fix?

I'm not sure he's trying to "fix" anything, but rather address what was one of the intended aims of the 4e system, i.e. to make the idea of a 15 minute workday less viable than actually going on and continuing with the encounters. As it stands, in a purely mechanical and dungeon crawl based sense, the 15 minute or 12 hour and 15 minute workday is still the most efficient way to deal with encounters.

I don't think he meant it to seems like the system as is, was broken, but I may have misrepresented it. I think he was just presenting a system, that regardless of any DM interaction or Campaign setting, encourages the players to push forward.

As I said, I've never come across that problem with any game I've played, even in the absence of time pressure, with Dailies being reserved for situations like


Dailies are the fall back "OH SHI-" powers, as in Hi, I'm about to die.

I don't think AngryDM was saying there aren't other solutions out there, as its easily fixed by DM fiat, but he was merely looking at some of the ways the system could have addressed one of the major problems with the previous system, within its core mechanics. As opposed to going back to the age old excuse of many systems of making it the DMs problem. He's not necessarily saying the system is wrong, just that wizards didn't address what it said it would (But how's that any different from normal ammirite? :smalltongue: ) and suggesting some ways they could have done so.

I'd be interested generally in seeing how it changes the flow of the system as it stands, but, yeah, its not necessary.

WitchSlayer
2011-02-24, 04:08 AM
"You're not tired yet."

Or just play Dark Sun

"Okay, you can rest after only being up for 10 minutes...

Lose another survival day."

Katana_Geldar
2011-02-24, 04:36 AM
Still reading, but I actually agree with this:


The thing is: death is not as big a danger as it used to be. It takes a lot to kill a PC. There are no one-shot or even two-shot monsters out there barring some very high crits. As long as a PC isn’t ganged up on, it’ll take two or three rounds just to drop him. The death save mechanic guarantees that the downed PC will live for three rounds at least. Because the system is designed around an average combat length of five rounds, death just isn’t a huge issue.


The DMG actually says that monsters won't attack downed enemies, which is the only way around the "save vs death" rule: you take so much damage that you die regardless. I've only had this happened to me twice in 4E, the first was with a adult red dragon, and the second was a solo campaign.

Death is cheap though, which is why I have considered changing it to more like 3.5 where there is a difference between Raise Dead, Resurrection and True Resurection.

dsmiles
2011-02-24, 05:37 AM
I have a huge issue with death not being a threat.
Warning: Rant Ahead.
I haven't actually read that rule, but if by 'downed' it means 'below 0 HP' That's something I can live with. At 0 HP, they're not dead yet, just unconscious, and what creature, with any sort of intelligence and/or common sense, wouldn't take advantage of that? Yes, I may be killing more characters like that, but death needs to be a very real possibility for characters. This, "Oh, it's ok. Death is only temporary, we'll get you rezzed right back up, even though you're only level 1" crap is just that. Crap. If there's no chance of failure, where's the glory in succeeding? If the heroes automatically win, why even bother to have adventures? That game would play something like:

DM: "Roll up a level 30 character."
Players: "Why level 30?"
DM: "Because you're going to win at everything, forever, anyways, we'll just skip the middle part."

*facepalm*

Seriously? Death should always be looming just over the next hill, or around the next corner. Players should fear for their characters' lives, at the very least, once or twice each session. If they die, so be it. Not every thorpe, village, or even town, will have a priest capable of resurrecting them.

This is a game about risk and reward. What's the point if you take out the risk?

pasko77
2011-02-24, 05:59 AM
2.In order to use their best abilities, the PCs need to build adrenaline or momentum or whatever you want to call it. Mechanically, it works like this: after an extended rest, a player only has access to one daily attack power – the lowest level one. After each encounter, during a short rest, he gains access to the next highest level one. If he has two powers of the same level, he can choose which one becomes available. The players can horde these powers or use them as they become available.


SERIOUSLY?
THIS is the best thing they came up with?

"Hey wizard, the McGuffin is there, turn invisible and catch it."
"No, I'm not angry enough."

pasko77
2011-02-24, 06:37 AM
A little thought on the matter:
a 15 minutes workday is quite realistic.

Let's supppose this scenario:
1) your task is not time sensitive.
2) You know you have to face several obstacles, you don't know how many.
3) After a fight, you end up really winded. (in game terms, no more dailies).
4) You have the choice to keep moving (next encounter) or to rest.

What do you do?
Of course you rest.

Let's remove condition 1). Let's say you have to find a cure for a poison before the patient's demise. Now, ready or not, you have to go through all encounters in the same day.
Easy.

Bye, Pasko

Kesnit
2011-02-24, 06:55 AM
2.In order to use their best abilities, the PCs need to build adrenaline or momentum or whatever you want to call it. Mechanically, it works like this: after an extended rest, a player only has access to one daily attack power – the lowest level one. After each encounter, during a short rest, he gains access to the next highest level one. If he has two powers of the same level, he can choose which one becomes available. The players can horde these powers or use them as they become available.

What about classes that just don't go through healing surges? I played an Artificer in a recent game who, in a really tough encounter, would use 2 surges. Most of the time, he didn't use any. (Something about big meat shields and melee strikers keeping the enemies off me.)

To make this idea worse, my highest level daily was "heal bot" that gave bonuses when allies spent a surge next to it and could revive fallen allies. Under this system, I would be a lot worse at one thing a Leader is supposed to do (heal) because I would almost never get access to my best healing power.

potatocubed
2011-02-24, 07:03 AM
I haven't actually read that rule...

It goes like this:

When you drop below 0 hp, you're down. You fall over and start making death saves, which are (barring modifiers) a straight d20 roll.

11+, congrats, you don't die.
20, super-grats! You have a surge of heroism, burn a healing surge and can get up on your own. (If you have any surges left, which my players rarely do.)
10 or lower, you fail.

Fail three saves and you croak. That gives you about six rounds of bleeding out, with a tiny chance that you'll get up on your own. I never found any rules for ceasing making death saves, so my group always assumed that you stabilised at 1 hp once the encounter ended.

In a party with no healing (or no healing left), this means that it's a race to end the encounter before your comrade bleeds out. You can't use Heal to stabilise them, you can't use powers, you have to go all out and win right now. I've had last minute rescues, last-minute failures, and on one occasion a barbarian get up on his own and turn a certain TPK into a narrow victory for the party. It adds a real something to the rest of the combat.

Oh, and if you reach minus your Con score in hp, you die also. This happens more often than you might think, especially when people are unconscious and also on fire.

4e's not as dangerous as other forms of D&D, no, but death is still very possible.

Leolo
2011-02-24, 07:06 AM
I have one problem with this discussion:

The 15 Minutes day makes sense. Narrativly. Rested troups should be better than those who have fought the whole day.

The problem with the 15 minutes day was never that you have your best options only at the beginning of the day. It was the point that you are unable to regain even moderate options during your fights. So that it is more efficient to use all your options in as less fights as you can. Instead of having a descending and floating exhaustion status you only have the 2 status rested / not rested.

The problem was that there wasn't an alternative option to "resting the next hours". It is easy for a DM to come up with time critical tasks, but if the players does not feel like they are able to resolve them it is pointless. They will simple say: "we know it is critical - but we can't."

So what is needed is a 3rd level: A "maybe we can resolve this issue, even if it will be harder than if we would have had a night in the next tavern"

Only this makes time critical tasks available. 4E does have those 3rd exhaustion status by saying that you are able to take a short rest. And of course some actions that you can take are no longer bound on your "options per day" counter. For a higher level group in previous editions, teleport is so much better than mundane movement that it is better to rest 8 hours and regain a teleport spell than to ride on horseback.

That's no longer true for 4E - you do not have to rest for this teleport, you just have to provide the neccessary reagents and (depending on the ritual) correct destination / starting place.

Another point is healing. A fighter in previous editions wants to rest if he is not fully healed. 4E does differentiate between "how many hits can you take over the whole day" and "how many hits can you take in one fight" so that there is no longer a need for him to be at full health.

I would say the 15 Minutes day (option) does still exist in 4E to a lower degree. But it is easier for the DM and players to avoid it, and it is no longer your undoubtable best option.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-02-24, 07:13 AM
I have a huge issue with death not being a threat.
Warning: Rant Ahead.
I haven't actually read that rule, but if by 'downed' it means 'below 0 HP' That's something I can live with. At 0 HP, they're not dead yet, just unconscious, and what creature, with any sort of intelligence and/or common sense, wouldn't take advantage of that? Yes, I may be killing more characters like that, but death needs to be a very real possibility for characters. This, "Oh, it's ok. Death is only temporary, we'll get you rezzed right back up, even though you're only level 1" crap is just that. Crap. If there's no chance of failure, where's the glory in succeeding? If the heroes automatically win, why even bother to have adventures? That game would play something like:

DM: "Roll up a level 30 character."
Players: "Why level 30?"
DM: "Because you're going to win at everything, forever, anyways, we'll just skip the middle part."

*facepalm*

Seriously? Death should always be looming just over the next hill, or around the next corner. Players should fear for their characters' lives, at the very least, once or twice each session. If they die, so be it. Not every thorpe, village, or even town, will have a priest capable of resurrecting them.

This is a game about risk and reward. What's the point if you take out the risk?
So, a couple of things:
(1) "0 HP" is a ridiculously small target to hit considering the variables involved in dealing damage. Basing any rule around hitting that one number exactly doesn't work in a HP system.

(2) Death is not the only way to fail - but it is the most destructive to a story. If you fail to save the king from assassins, you can still have a story about the aftermath; if you die trying to save the king your character has no further stories to tell - unless you are revived.

The death-revival cycle is one of the more problematic in WotC D&D. Aside from the storytelling aspect of the game, it takes a lot of time to roll up a character and the time invested in that mechanical side of things only increases as a character levels. As a result WotC made it far easier to revive dead PCs than TSR did which raised concerns about the reduced impact of mortality.
In short: if you want your Players to fear failure, come up with failure conditions aside from "you die." It will still strike the fear of god into your Players and ultimately makes for a more stable campaign.

That said, the "three strikes" system is sufficiently exciting. To start with, those strikes don't go away with simple healing - you need to take a Short Rest to clear them up. This means that in a very swingy combat you can be walking around with 2 Strikes, fearing the next time you drop and have to start taking saves. Secondly, falling to Negative Bloody is a more realistic possibility than you'd expect when you consider Ongoing Damage and the larger damage potential of monsters. Thirdly, the anticipation of character death is more terrifying than character death itself - and 4e does a good job of building this anticipation.

EDIT: @Potatocubed

First Aid
Make a Heal check to administer first aid.

First Aid: Standard action.
✦ Stabilize the Dying: Make a DC 15 Heal check to stabilize an adjacent dying character. If you succeed, the character can stop making death saving throws until he or she takes damage. The character’s current hit point total doesn’t change as a result of being stabilized.

...and you die at Negative Bloodied, not Negative CON


✦ Death: When you take damage that reduces your current hit points to your bloodied value expressed as a negative number, your character dies.

Anonomuss
2011-02-24, 07:20 AM
SERIOUSLY?
THIS is the best thing they came up with?

"Hey wizard, the McGuffin is there, turn invisible and catch it."
"No, I'm not angry enough."

Not quite, invisibility is a daily utility power, so that requirement doesn't apply.

Also, consider the way professional football players or other athletes operate. They don't get up and begin competing right away, no stretching exercises or warming up. They wouldn't be half as effective than they would be if they warmed up first. Why wouldn't the same thing apply to the exercise of magical power?


What about classes that just don't go through healing surges? I played an Artificer in a recent game who, in a really tough encounter, would use 2 surges. Most of the time, he didn't use any. (Something about big meat shields and melee strikers keeping the enemies off me.)


I think you might have quoted the wrong section, AngryDM never suggested anything in relation to healing surges. I think I said that it might be an option for cases where the campaign setting/narrative dictated fewer, harder, encounters per day.

It would be in addition to the rule AngryDM suggested, so either you reach a threshold of healing surges spent or a threshold of encounters run through, before gaining the higher level dailies. (I think the idea I had in my head at the time I wrote it was that at 0 Healing surges spent, you'd have your lowest level, at 1/4 of your total healing surges spent you'd have both your lowest level dailies, at 1/2 Healing Surges you'd have all but your highest, and you'd gain that at 3/4 Healing Surges spent.



To make this idea worse, my highest level daily was "heal bot" that gave bonuses when allies spent a surge next to it and could revive fallen allies. Under this system, I would be a lot worse at one thing a Leader is supposed to do (heal) because I would almost never get access to my best healing power.

So? :smallconfused:
Under the same system, the other characters would be dealing less damage because of less dailies, or bringing less control to the table, or be worse at protection, until the time at which its most needed (Theoretically). You'd still have healing surges to spend at that point, especially playing an artificer as you can spread around healing surge spending, and it would be a boost when the chips were down, or to help push you through the last encouter of the day.

It's not perfect, it's just an idea.

potatocubed
2011-02-24, 07:26 AM
EDIT: @Potatocubed...

Oops. Oh well, it's been a while since I played.

pasko77
2011-02-24, 07:26 AM
Not quite, invisibility is a daily utility power, so that requirement doesn't apply.

Sigh, it was an example. I'm AFB so I can't find an appropriate power, but I don't doubt there is.



Also, consider the way professional football players or other athletes operate. They don't get up and begin competing right away, no stretching exercises or warming up. They wouldn't be half as effective than they would be if they warmed up first. Why wouldn't the same thing apply to the exercise of magical power?

You are mixing "warming up" with "second half". I can warm up without people trying to kill me, and it is a perfect example of how flawed your argument is: professional players START THE GAME ALREADY WARMED UP.
Amirite?

Oracle_Hunter
2011-02-24, 07:28 AM
Not quite, invisibility is a daily utility power, so that requirement doesn't apply.

Also, consider the way professional football players or other athletes operate. They don't get up and begin competing right away, no stretching exercises or warming up. They wouldn't be half as effective than they would be if they warmed up first. Why wouldn't the same thing apply to the exercise of magical power?
...so adventurers should "warm up" before going into combat? Do they clear rats out of the inn's basement before stopping the Evil Wizard? :smallconfused:

Like I said before, Angry DM is simply replacing Resting with Grinding. Now, rather than taking zero real time to prepare for an Encounter, games need to run at least 1 Encounter (which takes a not-insignificant amount of real time) before getting to the real stuff. It's a bad idea.

Anonomuss
2011-02-24, 07:38 AM
You are mixing "warming up" with "second half". I can warm up without people trying to kill me, and it is a perfect example of how flawed your argument is: professional players START THE GAME ALREADY WARMED UP.
Amirite?

But what do athletes do to get warmed up? They throw a ball around, they jog around the pitch. They begin with simple skills that they refine so that when they need to do something more complex they're prepared for it physically/mentally.



...so adventurers should "warm up" before going into combat? Do they clear rats out of the inn's basement before stopping the Evil Wizard? :smallconfused:


Don't they end up churning through a wizards minions before they get to them anyway? :smallwink:

It's not a great analogy, and I admit that, but its the best I could come up with in playing devil's advocate. I know from experience that things involving somatic/verbal components require some warming up before you get to peak performance. I'm thinking from a musician's perspective as opposed to an adventurers, and I know it helps me to play/sing some easier pieces before I move on to harder ones, as it helps refine the basic elements of playing/singing, and makes it easier to progress to more difficult ones.

profitofrage
2011-02-24, 07:38 AM
Is there any system that relies heavily on resource management that doesn't encourage a 15 minute workday?

I could argue Dark heresy is indeed that. the limited resource is fate points in order to stay alive...and you dont get them back unless you do something particularly brave and death defying.

Also it can be very difficult to gather ammunition or resupply, since teleporting and "rushing back to hq" is almost completly impossible without sever consequences being expected.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-24, 07:41 AM
I never found any rules for ceasing making death saves,
PHB page 185. It's a heal check at DC 15.


Oh, and if you reach minus your Con score in hp, you die also.
Minus your bloodied value actually, and any healing effect first resets your HP to zero, and then adds however many HP it healed.


That said, the "three strikes" system is sufficiently exciting.
Really? It's very rare in my area to even fail a single death save (because almost always, your teammates heal you, stabilize you, or end the encounter before you have to roll one).

In other words, you find the "three strikes" system sufficiently exciting, and other people disagree. Its excitingness is not a fact.

lesser_minion
2011-02-24, 07:49 AM
A little thought on the matter:
a 15 minutes workday is quite realistic.

Let's supppose this scenario:
1) your task is not time sensitive.
2) You know you have to face several obstacles, you don't know how many.
3) After a fight, you end up really winded. (in game terms, no more dailies).
4) You have the choice to keep moving (next encounter) or to rest.

What do you do?
Of course you rest.

Let's remove condition 1). Let's say you have to find a cure for a poison before the patient's demise. Now, ready or not, you have to go through all encounters in the same day.
Easy.

So, what exactly is wrong with a time-insensitive task?

Nothing. Except that in 3rd edition, you can trivialise it using the 15-minute workday.

In 4th edition, the same adventure can work -- even if the players use the 15 minute workday, the amount they stand to gain from it shouldn't be enough to entirely trivialise the adventure. To re-iterate my earlier point, the fact that it works is not the problem.

At the same time, the enemies actually may be able to stop the players from escaping, so there will be the occasional fight with fewer powers available.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-02-24, 07:49 AM
Really? It's very rare in my area to even fail a single death save (because almost always, your teammates heal you, stabilize you, or end the encounter before you have to roll one).

In other words, you find the "three strikes" system sufficiently exciting, and other people disagree. Its excitingness is not a fact.
I mean, yeah - I've never heard of anything being objectively exciting :smalltongue:

Still, I was replying to someone who apparently hadn't played 4e either (apologies to dsmiles if I misinterpreted your post) so I think it's a wash, wouldn't you :smallwink:

Seriously, when we're talking about what is "exciting" we're inherently in the realm of subjective perception. All I can say is that when I have personally gotten to the stage of rolling death saves I've felt that a lot more was on the line than - say - when I was rolling "save vs. die" in 3e.

Naturally, YMMV.

pasko77
2011-02-24, 07:57 AM
So, what exactly is wrong with a time-insensitive task?


Nothing... i was agreeing with you. The 15 min workday is a reasonable, sound, tactical answer to problems, given a time-insensitive task.
It is impossible for a system to remove it, because it _makes sense_ to go as much prepared as possible.

pasko77
2011-02-24, 08:01 AM
But what do athletes do to get warmed up? They throw a ball around, they jog around the pitch. They begin with simple skills that they refine so that when they need to do something more complex they're prepared for it physically/mentally.


So you would enter a dungeon without warming up, and thinking "the first encounter will be my warmup"?

Suicidal at best. If I was to enter into a fight for my life, I would make sure I'm ready. But whatever. The rule, to me, is dumb. If you like it, all the better for you.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-24, 08:17 AM
Well....

It is clear to me that the 4E ruleset encourages using your most powerful attacks in the first encounter, and then resting until they become available again. There are various haphazard patches in RAW that entirely fail to deal with this, and the only real solution is having a DM (or adventure) that outright vetos it.

Of course, if you're playing with the right kind of people, this problem will never come up. A 15-minute workday is clear and obvious metagaming.

I will agree that it is not my preferred style of gaming, but I honestly don't see it as metagaming.

Do the characters not understand that certain abilities, for whatever reason, are limited in use? If they have this understanding, is it not a legitimate IC tactic?

And if they do not understand this, how does combat as per the rules fit the narrative at all?

Leolo
2011-02-24, 08:28 AM
PHB page 185. It's a heal check at DC 15.


The problem with this is that it consumes your standard (and very likely your move) action. And is therefore maybe contraproductive.

You stabilize one charakter - and risk being in the same situation yourself. In fact you also risk that the dying character is hit again by area attacks, as you two adjacent creatures might be a good target. I have already let a monster kill a dying character because two players run next to him instead of leading the fire to some other place.

The same can be true for actions like second wind. You heal yourself - but there are monsters that can use this extra round of attacking to make you regret this action. It depends on how nasty the monsters are hitting, and how many rounds you would need to bring them down. For a striker it is better to kill the monster fast than to heal himself.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-24, 08:35 AM
I will agree that it is not my preferred style of gaming, but I honestly don't see it as metagaming.
Perhaps "metagaming" isn't the best term.

I have an issue with characters that always do what is logically best for them, because people don't act that way in real life either. I like it if a PC takes an action that is logically sub-optimal because this action is in character for that PC.

(edit) thus, getting back to the OP's example, while a 15-minute workday is clearly logically optimal, it is also clearly not in character for pretty much any believable character.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-24, 08:40 AM
Sure, in real life people are lazy, scared, tired, etc, and often avoid doing things they should. This is an excellent argument against things like "I'll spend all my wealth on a shinier magic item, and continue sleeping in a tent in the muck". Real people usually prefer not to do things like that.

However, when the optimal strategy is caution and less work in a day, well, yeah. Real people are all over that. The world is filled with people that would *love* to accomplish their goals by working 15 minutes a day, and would do so in a heartbeat if it were possible, let alone optimal.

Just because a decision is non-optimal doesn't make it good roleplaying.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-02-24, 08:43 AM
Perhaps "metagaming" isn't the best term.

I have an issue with characters that always do what is logically best for them, because people don't act that way in real life either. I like it if a PC takes an action that is logically sub-optimal because this action is in character for that PC.

(edit) thus, getting back to the OP's example, while a 15-minute workday is clearly logically optimal, it is also clearly not in character for pretty much any believable character.
Except for characters who want to be at their best? :smallconfused:

There seems to be a touch of Stormwind in this sentiment. In the same way that Fighters will wear armor that protects them the best and Rogues will always try to get Sneak Attacks in combat, adventurers will go about their adventuring in the method that gives them the best odds - barring countervailing concerns. The issue with the 15 Minute Workday is that there is no inherent excuse not to do it: the concept is so simple that it should be obvious to do it.

Now, that doesn't mean there can't be story reasons to avoid this 15 Minute Workday. Perhaps you have to get back to town tomorrow for a big party; your ship home leaves with the morning tide; the hostage gets executed on Tuesday. These are all valid reasons to not take necessary care and they're available to every DM in drafting a game. But the idea that "believable characters" would say "nah, let's rush the Dragon when we're three sheets to the wind" for no other reason than being "believable" is a bit much.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-24, 08:47 AM
However, when the optimal strategy is caution and less work in a day, well, yeah. Real people are all over that. The world is filled with people that would *love* to accomplish their goals by working 15 minutes a day, and would do so in a heartbeat if it were possible, let alone optimal.
The difference is that the purpose of such free time IRL is to do things that are fun, whereas the purpose of such free time in D&D is to skip over it and recover your powers.

If your character enjoys a quick dungeoncrawl followed by a long night at the pub, then roleplay going to the pub. Don't just skip to the next day.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-24, 08:50 AM
If you wish to roleplay people BSing around a campfire or enjoying a night at the pub, you're certainly welcome to do so. That doesn't really change the 15 minute workday, though, and skipping over unimportant activities is a time-honored roleplaying tradition. After all, I'm not going to roleplay my character peeing unless it's to claim a dragon's lair as his own.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-24, 09:01 AM
If you wish to roleplay people BSing around a campfire or enjoying a night at the pub, you're certainly welcome to do so. That doesn't really change the 15 minute workday,
Well, it does. If my character is in the middle of a rainy wilderness, and he doesn't like being there, then he's going to work a lot more than 15 minutes per day to get out of there as soon as possible.

Anonomuss
2011-02-24, 11:11 AM
So you would enter a dungeon without warming up, and thinking "the first encounter will be my warmup"?

Suicidal at best. If I was to enter into a fight for my life, I would make sure I'm ready. But whatever. The rule, to me, is dumb. If you like it, all the better for you.

From a game perspective? Absolutely. Because if you really want to spend an encounter sparring outside the dungeon, then its still an encounter. You're still spending resources.

From a narrative perspective? Absolutely. I'm not going to practice throwing magical flames at the fighter just to make sure they're going to be sufficiently lethal to kill things. Or risk that my demonic patron feels I'm wasting his gifts by shooting targets with his eldritch blasts. The rogue isn't going to practice stabbing other living creatures, because, guess what? They don't like being stabbed/nearly stabbed/threatened with being stabbed, the selfish and ungrateful louts. Not to mention that the cleric can't actually practice healing without someone getting hurt, and y'know what, doctors don't stab people in the gut just to have something to practice on. Most have oaths to prevent that sort of thing.

Even novels often go to the trouble to show that their heroes need to have proper in combat practice or their skills begin to wane. Probably not the best example of great writing, but Drizzt Do'Urden's skill with blades was mentioned to be at its highest when he was living life from encounter to encounter in the underdark, and his skills began to fade when he reigned himself in again.

People don't go about in battle mode all the time, unlike internet users. It usually takes a while of actively pursuing an activity before you find your comfort zone again, and resting usually takes you out of it.

LikeAD6
2011-02-24, 11:19 AM
I have never had that problem. My players know that taking an extended rest takes time, and that villains can do stuff while the heroes are asleep. They also know not to waste their dailies in fights with weaker underlings, but if I readily reveal the villain's name that they're fighting, using a daily is probably a good idea. Generally they wait until someone has run out of surges or is very close to running out before they take an extended rest.

Tiki Snakes
2011-02-24, 11:29 AM
Yeah, I can't help but feel that if your adventuring party sets up camp for a 20 hour* break after the first skirmish, they are basically asking for trouble.
That kind of lay-over is quite clearly meta-game in nature and completely counter intuitive unless, essentially, that first encounter was the mother of all near-tpk's.

* 12 hours before they can begin another extended rest, 6 hours for sleeping, and another 2 needed to stagger the party's rest-time so that they have someone on-guard at all times during the rest.

I see a lot of issues with the action-point-every-encounter idea, to be honest. Cheifly, that not giving one after an extended rest basically is irrelevant, because after their very first ever encounter they will always have one. And unless you are taking away the limit of 1/encounter, you may as well just make them an encounter-power and be done with it.
Unless you are intended to lose them when you take an extended rest, I suppose. That would just mean you never get an action point in the first encounter of the day though.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-24, 11:30 AM
Well, it does. If my character is in the middle of a rainy wilderness, and he doesn't like being there, then he's going to work a lot more than 15 minutes per day to get out of there as soon as possible.

Rushing through things you hate makes sense. However, very, very few people prefer potentially lethal encounters over other alternatives. It is amazingly easy to make a character concept consistant with the 15min workday.

Tiki Snakes
2011-02-24, 11:34 AM
Rushing through things you hate makes sense. However, very, very few people prefer potentially lethal encounters over other alternatives. It is amazingly easy to make a character concept consistant with the 15min workday.

An entire party however? One or two essentially lazy Wizards I could see, or a fat cleric, but the idea of a bunch of hardened warriors and sneaky types barricading themselves up and drinking tea for the majority of every single day is kind of hilarious to me, and I can't help but think that their reputation would not be...flattering. :smallbiggrin:

Tyndmyr
2011-02-24, 11:48 AM
I...actually kind of want to play in this party now. "eh, we already killed the gnolls. We'll do more adventuring tomorrow. Hey, have you seen my new lute? Yknow what they say, after the killing comes the luting."

Doug Lampert
2011-02-24, 12:40 PM
Is there any system that relies heavily on resource management that doesn't encourage a 15 minute workday?

Any system where full recovery takes a LOT more than 6 hours rest.

An MLB pitcher throws the ball a hundred or so times every 5 days, at the end of half a year of this he needs time off badly and gets almost half a year off. After a couple of years of doing this he may well need surgury to repair the cumulative damage.

An NFL team is in serious trouble if it has to play on "only" four days rest.

Ultramarathoners who run 50+ miles for fun, do so once every two weeks or so.

And it's not just athletes, if you're a couch potatoe try taking a 20 mile hike, no gear, no pack, just walk, the next day try to take a 2 mile walk and see if you've "fully recovered".

Anyone who thinks "overnight" is enough to recover has never been tired, much less injured!

If it takes weeks or months to recover then characters won't bother to take time off till they're "done", or at least till the fellowship has reached Rivendell or Lothlorien and can rest safely for a month.

Kesnit
2011-02-24, 12:45 PM
It would be in addition to the rule AngryDM suggested, so either you reach a threshold of healing surges spent or a threshold of encounters run through, before gaining the higher level dailies. (I think the idea I had in my head at the time I wrote it was that at 0 Healing surges spent, you'd have your lowest level, at 1/4 of your total healing surges spent you'd have both your lowest level dailies, at 1/2 Healing Surges you'd have all but your highest, and you'd gain that at 3/4 Healing Surges spent.

So? :smallconfused:
Under the same system, the other characters would be dealing less damage because of less dailies, or bringing less control to the table, or be worse at protection, until the time at which its most needed (Theoretically).

I may not have made myself clear. Let me try again...
Chances are, I would NEVER get my "heal bot" daily because I would never spend enough surges to reach it.

Eventually, the others would probably reach their high level dailies. I never would because I had no need to burn surges.


You'd still have healing surges to spend at that point,

Why would I be spending my surges? I'm not being hit. Artificer powers don't spend the Artificer's surges. If a surge is needed (not all require one), it is used by the one being healed.


especially playing an artificer as you can spread around healing surge spending,

Yup, which burns my allies's surges, not mine. So I'm still not reaching my highest daily.

I understand it was just an idea, and it is an interesting one. But I think it would gimp a lot of classes that are designed more to stand back out and stay away from enemies.

Darakonis
2011-02-24, 12:48 PM
Huh, there was recently a quick video tip (http://www.dnd-d.com/quicktips/d-d-quick-tips-over-resting-parties) posted about this. Three ways a DM can deal with this situation, without altering rules.

Peace,
-Darakonis

VirOath
2011-02-24, 01:31 PM
Really? What about the first-turn opening nova?

Which should be done in encounter powers, or Dailies if it is a critical fight. But many dailies are the choice between "Hi, just a little bit more damage from me over said encounter powers" or "In a jam? Make them pay and get out of it." Many of the good ones apply beneficial bonuses that are wasted if used on the first round of combat.

Then again, I'm from the school of thought "Fight Smarter, not Harder." An opening round nova can make tactical sense in the right situations, such as hitting someone with an ambush, but very rarely should it be the best opening move. Mobs don't sit around in clusters waiting to be pulled.

And back to the 15 minute workday. If the DM needs to make it an option for it to be a problem, then the system is fine with how it handles it. 3E wasn't the case, as a wizard had quite a few options for hiding in a place to rest without the possibility of interference. But if it needs to be the DM's call on whether that tactic works perfectly or not without fiat, then the system is handling it right.

Why? Because the system isn't responsible for the choices the DM makes for his games. The system doesn't need to shore up itself for poor choices made by them when they come back to complain.

Anonomuss
2011-02-24, 01:42 PM
Why would I be spending my surges? I'm not being hit. Artificer powers don't spend the Artificer's surges. If a surge is needed (not all require one), it is used by the one being healed.


I'm afraid you're wrong there, just to clear up a misconception. Your healing infusions use a healing surge to be recharged, not from the person being healed but from anyone from your party, and do not use up a healing surge when they are being used. If you're not spending healing surges while not taking damage, then your other party members are taking damage, and spending surges to keep you safe. You should then probably spend your surges at the end of the encounter to recharge your healing infusions. Just to clarify:



When you take a short rest, you or an ally can spend a healing surge to restore one of your infusions.


Bolding mine.



I understand it was just an idea, and it is an interesting one. But I think it would gimp a lot of classes that are designed more to stand back out and stay away from enemies.

Well, not if they're saving enough surges that they can work through four encounters, but I take your point. Its something I suppose would need to be considered should anyone implement it.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-24, 01:49 PM
But many dailies are the choice between "Hi, just a little bit more damage from me over said encounter powers" or "In a jam? Make them pay and get out of it." Many of the good ones apply beneficial bonuses that are wasted if used on the first round of combat.
I tend to pick better dailies than that, though. If a daily power doesn't have some effect that lasts the entire encounter, I'm unlikely to take it.

Choco
2011-02-24, 01:51 PM
As has been stated before, there is a simple solution: Attack the PC's when they are resting. Their enemies will not stand still and wait for them to rest up to return to the fight :smallwink:

VirOath
2011-02-24, 02:12 PM
I tend to pick better dailies than that, though. If a daily power doesn't have some effect that lasts the entire encounter, I'm unlikely to take it.

Granted, and those tend to be the best choice if cherry picked and used tactically. Wall Of Blades stance for the fighter comes to mind, not the greatest example I'm sure, but one none the less.

But for many, those sit in the utility tree. And I've found that not having a get out of trouble power can really hurt, depending the on the DM.

The ones in our group are a little on the brutal side. Having a daily chain ready so you can drop two or three surge free heals on yourself without touching Second Wind can save your life.

Dalek-K
2011-02-24, 02:14 PM
Maybe I'm weird but I don't use dailies as much, I tend to focus on tactics and at-wills (sometimes encounter powers).

Sure if there is a nasty threat I'll pull out the big guns, but most of the time skill (feinting, jumping, etc) + at-will + tactics are more than enough.

Of course a goblin once insulted the mother and species of my avenger over and over... Before being erratted to death the avenger could pull off around 200hp worth of damage at low levels (combo of action point + using a god's divine power + certain weapons). The minion didn't stand a chance. :smallfurious:

Mike_G
2011-02-24, 04:06 PM
I really prefer to counter the 15 minute work day by good DMing rather than a rules fix.

Hundreds of ways to discourage camping for the night after every encounter.

"In three days the stars will be right, and the evil High Priest will finish his ritual, sacrifice the captive princess, and summon his dark Master, who will bring about an age of torment." If that's too melodramatic, any rescue quest can be sped along by pointing out that every delay gives the bad guys more time to torture/eat/brainwash/sacrifice/rape the captives.

The fact that any time the party rests to refit, the bad guys can shore up defenses. Plus, if the party is in the BBEG's dungeon lair, search parties of guards should be looking for the intruders once they realize the place is infiltrated, which is hard to hide if you wipe out a guardroom and then rest for the night in a broom closet. Move quickly, you may surprise the next encounter, rest until the dead guards' relief shows up, and you give up that element of surprise.

Outside the enemy's stronghold, you still can shove the party along by only letting them carry so much food and water.

All these help eliminate the 15 minute day as standard, but allow the option in cases where the party gets beaten up badly by an encounter and doses need to rest and regain powers.

Changing the rules or adding mechanics will have ripples

kyoryu
2011-02-24, 07:20 PM
Meh. I don't have too much of a problem with it.

It takes 12 hours before you can start a new extended rest, which means that the world is going to be moving on with stuff. If the PCs find that they can basically take 4 times as long to do anything by doing 15 minute days, then I've kinda failed as a DM.

Not to mention that where the PCs end up at the end of an encounter may very well be a dangerous spot to be in.

Christopher K.
2011-02-24, 07:44 PM
Maybe I just missed someone else saying this, but my perspective is that the PC's just slept. They aren't going to be able to fall asleep after only 15 minutes of activity; they aren't actually tired yet. :smalltongue:

Besides, if you're burning your dailies on the first encounter, that's kinda your own fault. :smallwink:

RebelRogue
2011-02-24, 07:50 PM
Maybe I just missed someone else saying this, but my perspective is that the PC's just slept. They aren't going to be able to fall asleep after only 15 minutes of activity; they aren't actually tired yet. :smalltongue:
Hence the rule, that you must wait at least 12 hours before another extended rest.


Besides, if you're burning your dailies on the first encounter, that's kinda your own fault. :smallwink:
IMO Dailies should be spent when you see a great opportunity for them to work optimally - is this in your first encounter (and assuming you're not clearly just mopping up the fight, of course), by all means use them. Saving all the dailies for one final battle is a little boring. Besides, for some classes, like the Warden, it makes little sense not to spread out the use over more encounters.

cupkeyk
2011-02-24, 08:07 PM
Also IRL, one combat a day is pretty normal in a medieval setting. Except with battle, where they replace injured troups.

Zeful
2011-02-24, 08:16 PM
A little thought on the matter:
a 15 minutes workday is quite realistic.

Let's supppose this scenario:
1) your task is not time sensitive.
2) You know you have to face several obstacles, you don't know how many.
3) After a fight, you end up really winded. (in game terms, no more dailies).
4) You have the choice to keep moving (next encounter) or to rest.

What do you do?
Of course you rest.

Let's remove condition 1). Let's say you have to find a cure for a poison before the patient's demise. Now, ready or not, you have to go through all encounters in the same day.
Easy.

Bye, Pasko

Point 1 is wrong, all tasks are time-sensitive. No one will wait forever for the party to come to them or gather what they were set out for, so eventually they will write off the PCs as dead or whatever and get a new group together, most tasks simply have a very large wait period. Part of adventure design should be how long will the objective last or employer wait for the PCs to solve the problem.

cupkeyk
2011-02-24, 10:43 PM
Point 1 is wrong, all tasks are time-sensitive. No one will wait forever for the party to come to them or gather what they were set out for, so eventually they will write off the PCs as dead or whatever and get a new group together, most tasks simply have a very large wait period. Part of adventure design should be how long will the objective last or employer wait for the PCs to solve the problem.

Excellent, thank you for agreing that the 15 minute workday is not a PC issue but a DM issue. IRL, if one gets mugged, the average joe's whole world will go on a standstill until he recovers his wits.

On a largescale battle scenario, one skirmish will incapacitate a soldier for weeks or months if not permanently.

There is nothing unrealistic about the fifteen minute workday. It is as realistic in game terms as it is in real life. Only adventure design will determine otherwise. Say in RL scenarios: D-Day or the adventures most modern weekend warriors pay for.

Leolo
2011-02-25, 03:56 AM
I do not think that the problem can be focussed on dm behavior.

Time critical tasks are only a solution if the players accept them. And this is based on the question how the system is resolving resting, exhaustion and similar points.

Of course there are some actions that the designers have taken to address the problem, so you could say that 4E reduces this problem to the question if the DM uses time critical tasks. (In fact i would say so, for the reasons mentioned above like short rests, healing surges / hitpoints split, rituals, skill challenges and so on)

But in general the problem is system inherit. The system has to address this before the dm is able to shape his adventure accordingly.

If not, the players will simple say: Well it is nice that we should rescue princess charmia from the dark tower of doom before midnight. We understand that she will be sacrificed until than. But we can not accomplish this - this task is to hard without full health and full powers. Sorry princess. What's next?

Tyndmyr
2011-02-25, 06:52 AM
Point 1 is wrong, all tasks are time-sensitive. No one will wait forever for the party to come to them or gather what they were set out for, so eventually they will write off the PCs as dead or whatever and get a new group together, most tasks simply have a very large wait period. Part of adventure design should be how long will the objective last or employer wait for the PCs to solve the problem.

Not the case. For instance, in not every case is the party working for a direct employer. Consider classic D&D dungeon crawls. The objective is "get loot". Time is very much not a factor.

Plus, if the wait time is longer than encounter/day anyhow, it's really pretty irrelevant.

It's an inherent problem with meting out power by the day.