D&D 3.5e Post Enlightenment

[Welknair]

What happens when the general populace realizes that becoming a Wizard is the best path to a higher standard of living? They are the most versatile, always valued, can make all sorts of magic items, and can get a deal of gp doing so. Hmm. 1000gp of work on a magic item/day, 500gp cost per 1000. So you get 500gp/day. 500*5 days a week*4 weeks a month (This leaves space for vacation time)*12 months a year = 120,000gp a year. So once you hit 3rd level as long as you got the exp to fuel the crafting, you are in money city. Now let's also assume that we have developed a spell that allows for the mass-production of spellbooks. So this means that arcane knowledge is now readily available to the common person. Anyone with the willingness, funds, and Int of 11 or over should and likely will gain at least one level of Wizard. The result is that everyone most people with funds, Int, and drive are getting the mongo bucks. So how does this affect the value of your average gp and how does it affect the standard of living/average wealth of an average person?

Edit: After much nice discussion, I feel the need to update this post as not to get more of the same. We have confirmed: Not everyone would be a wizard, because A) Not everyone has the Int/Drive to, B) Not everyone has the money, C) It's not the ideal life for everyone. As a result of any sort of high-magic game, we will reach one of two eventualities: A) Magic Apocalypse or B) Some sort of truce where some ground rules are laid down to stop the former.

[MammonAzrael]

Tippyverse or Dark Sun-like reactions to arcane casters. Take your pick. :smalltongue:

Really though, trying to apply economics to a game like DnD, it just gets messy. Kill the dragons, steal their goal, and don't think too much about it. :smallsmile:

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, you would have lots of Magewrights, then?

Those being the arcane version of an npc class!

[Doc Roc]

Or Jakeverse. Arguably more hellish.

[arguskos]

Or Jakeverse. Arguably more hellish.
Was the Jakeverse ever actually codified in a thread anywhere? I never saw how it got any worse than Tippy's view of things.

[Endarire]

What happens depends largely on the 'tech level' of your setting. What's the highest spell level casters can reliably put on a magic item? What's the absolute highest they can? How saturated is your niche?

Your economics assume demand remains stagnant, which heavily implies that the setting doesn't change in regards to your actions or the actions of prominent casters/item creators.

It should. Really.

At the very extreme- with magic ruling every facet of life- then your end result is a Magicopolis ("Tippyverse") utopia/dystopia. Or everything could end in shambles. Usually the magicopolis happens for awhile before the Fallout-like destruction.

[elonin]

Doesn't it come down to training? The reason why everyone wouldn't be a crafter is the same reason why everyone in middle ages wasn't a craftsman. Your parents would have had to pay someone to apprentice you in a skill.

[Welknair]

Well given that that vast population aren't adventurers, I use 3rd level as pretty much the training cap. So that'd be 2nd level spells. And you are quite right. I have a homebrew feat "Arcane Education" that allows the individual to choose three Cantrips which he can then cast a total of 3/day. Then those with the gp and the Int would go on to conventional Wizard Colleges which are far more pervasive. Then you have your Graduate programs that could take you into 5th level or so by assigned missions and regulated duels.

One of the problems I've been dealing with is that set ratio of raw materials to production time to market price. One would assume that further out such processes would become more efficient and thus creation times would go down. Would prices in general fall? :smallconfused:

And as for where this is going, check my sig.

Edit: And Endarire is correct. It wouldn't work with everyone being a wizard because if you can make wondrous items, why would you buy them? You would get a surge at the beginning, then people would drop off back into other professions. Maybe in a base class who's sole job is to upkeep all the crazy new items... maybe some kind of Arcane Engineer. In any case, there would still be a greater average revenue due to this increase of crafters, even if said increase is capped somewhat by demand.

[Khatoblepas]

More people having more gold = the gold becomes worthless, except where spells are concerned. Raise Dead now becomes almost free, since 5000gp worth of diamonds is a paltry sum. 1gp could be worth an infinitesimally small amount compared to a standard gp. Fabricate, Wall of Iron, and other spells obviate everything.

The problem then becomes losing levels, and XP. Noone wants to lose XP, as that means losing power.

XP becomes the new currency. Commoners then, in this magical, utopian society, devote their time to creating Ambrosia/Liquid Pain. Nooone ever comes out, as they are merely XP batteries for the real Wizards, while they waste away in Ambrosia chambers thinking happy thoughts.

Then Wizards, not wanting to bother with the welfare of the common folk, create two PAO traps (set to Mongrelfolk) fed by rocks from the Elemental Plane of Earth, followed by producing Liquid Pain until the newly created creature is all tapped out, then using the BoVD rules to sacrifice them, then dumping the bodies in a Dispel Magic trap to turn them back into rocks, which can be incinerated on the Elemental Plane of Fire. Functionally Infinite XP and worthless GP means the chosen few powerful wizards ascend to a new plane of existance (they are probably already liches), and the Tippyverse is left a smoking ruin filled with mass production XP farms, protected by horrifying undead and constructs armed with powerful magic items made from the infinite screaming bodies that come into existance and wink out again seconds later, probably melded onto their skins so that they can't be stolen easily. The common folk are likewise transformed, probably into Wights, and controlled by the evil, undying clerics that live inside these traps, Mindraped into thinking that every sacrifice brings them closer to their foul, malign deity and then turned into Huecuvas or Liches themselves, their phylactery being the lynchpins of the traps which they guard viciously. The commoner-wights guard the outside of these traps, disposable and self-perpetuating.

As for the average person? They're either insane and mindraped, or an undead monstrosity.

There are some things man was not meant to know. "Magical societies work" is one of them. But what people don't ever realise until it's too late, is that this power doesn't make everyones lives better for long. High magical societies always have people wanting to take advantage of the lesser man, and especially in D&D, a 20th level wizard could beat an infinite number of 1st level Wizards. His power is too great. And with that power, comes corruption and madness. Lichification, turning an entire city, or even an entire country, into slaves for their mad schemes is what wizards do. And the more wizards there are, the more likely this is to happen.

Be warned, adventurers! Ancient magical empires have done this before. It could go right this time, but don't count on it.

[Welknair]

I... kinda... made a magic item that can store EXP for use in spells and crafting? It comes with a neat little item called an Acceptance Stone that goes into a person's forehead. When they die it absorbs 1/4 their experience points they had upon death. This can then be hooked up to an Experience Capacitor for storage and later use.

So... yeah.

[Amnestic]

I... kinda... made a magic item that can store EXP for use in spells and crafting? It comes with a neat little item called an Acceptance Stone that goes into a person's forehead. When they die it absorbs 1/4 their experience points they had upon death. This can then be hooked up to an Experience Capacitor for storage and later use.

So... yeah.

That is both a cool item, and something which would likely cause wizards to turn people into experience factories to fuel their arcane powers.

As a villainous tool, great, but it'd probably cause some sort of apocalypse at some point.

[Welknair]

Well in my current campaign my players stumbled upon the ruins of a long-dead civilization who used my magitech system. Guess how the civilization died? The leaders treated their people awfully and got so arrogant they challenged the gods. Hmm. Advanced civilization with neat toys, or the creators of the universe. And hence that civilization was no more.

I had been trying to come up with how economics would be affected by pervasiveness of magic however, to possibly accommodate games using said system as a baseline for technological development.

But pretty much any way you slice it, Pervasive Magic = High Level Wizard = Crazy Wizard = Bye bye world

[Amnestic]

With great magic comes great responsibility, I guess? But also great control. A government isn't just going to let wizards run amok. Not a smart government anyway. I could see some sort of elite anti-caster group with a bunch of divinations/spell-protection who hunt down wizards who are getting too crazy. They wouldn't be as adept spellcasters themselves (being incapable of creating their own apocalypse by necessity) but they'd excel at taking down wizards of any level including Epic.

Just an idea of course.

[Welknair]

Found it! "Occult Slayer" PrC in CW p 66. Not bad, especially when coupled with some of the anti-spellcaster feats from the CA... Ever read the Bartimaeus Trilogy? I'd assume it'd end up kind of like that where spellcasters are tightly regulated. Special licenses and whatnot... And then we have the Secret Slayer Police who kill the crazies.

[Amnestic]

Ever read the Bartimaeus Trilogy?

I have. I thought it was an excellent series, and really need to pick it up again since my books have gone missing. I may do that tomorrow in fact. Need something to tide me over until New Vegas turns up on my doorstep.

One may assume your world (wherever/whatever it is) doesn't have one government over the whole lands, so the Secret Slayers (S.S. :smalltongue: ) will probably need fast transportation and stealthiness if not all countries agree to set up such a program. A lack of agreements may lead to all out war over the matter. An entire wizarding genocide may occur where spellcasters are all but wiped out and the majority of their materials destroyed, turning your campaign from what would have been crazy high-magic into almost universally low.

Again, just some thoughts.

[Randel]

As more people become more powerful (presumably through access to magic) then odds increase that somebody will work to control everyone else

Teachers start using "Charm Person" on apprentice wizards to ensure that their student doesn't start firing their combat spellsat them.

Domination, Glibness, Mind Rape, mass indoctrination, and other measures will be taken to ensure that everyone plays by "The Rules".

Seriously, once a fair percentage of people get the magical ability to set things on fire with their mind, teleport, and do other stuff then keeping a functioning society together becomes more problematic. The fact that wizards and other spellcasters tend to have low HP just encourages them to keep their society safe.

[Endarire]

Remember, D&D 3.P magic is so powerful that once even one person can reliably use setting-disrupting spells on a frequent basis (like every day), things change radically.

Imagine if suddenly, one day, you learned dominate person and teleport. You know that no other civil creature knows these abilities.

Consider how much havoc you can wreak, enslaving whoever you choose and popping away like nothing bad happened.

That may be your typical level 9 Wizard using only core rules.

[Welknair]

I did make another handy magic item that tries to dispel incoming Compulsion effects... Not 100% reliable and a bit costly, but enough such that your nobles and governors aren't necessarily going to succumb to the newbies.

[Land Outcast]

I did make another handy magic item that tries to dispel incoming Compulsion effects... Not 100% reliable and a bit costly, but enough such that your nobles and governors aren't necessarily going to succumb to the newbies.

But their bodyguards, cooks and pages might...

[Telonius]

You might also have a society use the "Klaus (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20040804) Wulfenbach (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20040806)" method. One decently-powerful wizard manipulates things politically so that the really powerful wizards are kept in line by other really powerful wizards. Occasionally some tiny little experiment goes bad and a town or two ends up as were-sloth monstrosities, but on the whole things stay stable.

[Yora]

What happens when the general populace realizes that becoming a Wizard is the best path to a higher standard of living?
What happens when the general populace realizes that becomming CEO of a multi-billion dollar corporation is the best path to a highe standard of living?

Just because you know what job gets the best money doesn't mean you can just get it. So I guess nothing happens.

[Master_Rahl22]

One way you could have Magitek and not descend to the Tippyverse and/or apocalypse is maybe the apocalyptic Mage War started and after a while all parties went, "Holy crap we could kill ourselves off completely doing this. We need to ban certain uses of magic and form a UN type thing to enforce it." Then you have magic that replaces technology in a functioning society that knows the dangers of letting it go too far. They are able to mutate creatures to create new breeds, but experimenting on humans in such a way is banned. The mages could wipe out all existing governments and run things, but the sane ones realize what that could lead to and don't. The insane ones who might want to try are outnumbered by the sane ones that would stop them, so they don't try.

[Welknair]

So that definitely sounds like where things would be headed. Either apocalypse, or a group of sane wizards getting together and making some ground rules. I also made a device that prevents certain casting in a wearing individual... possibly with an accompanying shock... That could help people stay in line at least.

So, as for gp worth, we're saying that it's worth would generally go down yet the costs of items stay the same? :smallconfused: Or would there have to be some sort of price change to accommodate, or...

Oh, and I'm about halfway through Girl Genius. Quite like the approach.

[JonestheSpy]

What happens when the general populace realizes that becomming CEO of a multi-billion dollar corporation is the best path to a highe standard of living?

Just because you know what job gets the best money doesn't mean you can just get it. So I guess nothing happens.

Yup. Same reason everyone hasn't said "You know, rock stars have tons of money, sex, and adulation" and then society turning into nothing but rock stars.

[Haarkla]

What happens when the general populace realizes that becoming a Wizard is the best path to a higher standard of living? They are the most versatile, always valued, can make all sorts of magic items, and can get a deal of gp doing so.
WoTC launch a new edition.

[Tyndmyr]

What happens when the general populace realizes that becoming a Wizard is the best path to a higher standard of living?

It's not the best path to higher living. It's one of the best paths to the HIGHEST living.

There are vastly better paths to quite substantial amounts of power. I say better, in that you're less likely to die horribly when you have single digit hp.

[elonin]

Seems most people here buy into the "everyone can be successful as a wizard" premise. I disagree. Just like how not everyone does well academically in the real world. First not everyone applies themselves. Don't see any reason why that would be different in a fantasy context. Then there's money. Plenty of people find this to be a hurdle with pell grants and scholarships etc and those would be non-existent in a realistic fantasy setting.

[Callista]

In the modern world, everybody knows that being a doctor is a great way to get a six-figure salary.

So why is everybody in the modern world not trying to become a doctor?

Same principle.

[Grendus]

Considering the average int is 10, the average commoner could barely cast cantrips. We forget that int 20 is something of a savant level genius without the drawbacks. So no, we wouldn't see an "enlightenment", because very few people have the capacity to wield magic in the first place. Of those that do, most don't have the means.

[Callista]

Yeah, INT 18 is like... 1:200 people, or so. The top half-percent.

And many of those will become something other than an INT-based casting class. There's no reason why they shouldn't become, say, librarians or midwives instead. Not everybody is interested in magic.

[Welknair]

Edited the OP. The subject of who would/can become a wizard has been sufficiently covered, I do believe.

So... let's say we get a bunch of the first Epic-Level Wizards together. Let's say they are miraculously the Sane type (however unlikely this may be...). And let's say they realize what's going to happen to the world if they don't do something about it. So they hatch a plan. Together they weave an immensely powerful Epic Level Spell that affects the entire cosmology. It's function is to detect inappropriate or destabilizing uses of magic and to stop it/punish the caster. This could then be further enforced by the previously mentioned S.S. So, the question is, What would trigger this punishment? What spells under what circumstances would be labeled "Destabilizing"? To what an extent would they be allowed? How severe would the punishment be? :smallconfused:

[Lord Raziere]

yea, DnD's system of magic doesn't allow the spread of enlightenment or anything like that, if you want a magic that does that, design it yourself cause the way that DnD Wizards are set up wizards and magic would be a minority wherever you go since plain technology can be used by anyone, its very possible that DnD Wizards could exist in the world right now and we would never know because of how little the high intelligence, drive and interest occurs.

the result is that DnD is closer to a low magic world in reality since there are probably only like a few hundred or so wizards in the entire world according to how its system is set up.

so DnD Post Enlightenment is....our world, exactly as it is, except for wizard celebrities performing tricks for people or belonging to some elite government force superhero registration style.

want a real post enlightenment magic system? make one yourself, DnD Magic would never work for those purposes.

[Grendus]

It would probably be enough to cast the equivalent of Mark of Justice (the PHB spell) that drops a wizard's int by 6 or a sorcerer's charisma by 6. At epic level, the int penalty would be almost impossible to dispel. It would mean that most evil wizards would be shut down right away (say an int 18 wizard, the top .5% of the world, could barely cast level two spells), the only way to have an epic evil wizard would be if he was already high level before turning evil, so he could either manage the level check for Remove Curse or stack enough expensive int bonuses to get his int back above 19.

Might make an interesting world, actually. Epic level wizard trying to work a ritual to end the Mark of Justice on the world so he can raise a cult of powerful wizards and conquer the world.

[jojolagger]

Offenses have Magnitudes ranging from 0 to 10 where 0 is a non-offense (0 affected significantly) while a 10 is 1,000,000+ people being affected. Once you have done this, you now have a Magnitude Score equal to the highest magnitude crime you have committed.
I'd say have it be CL * 10^N HD to determine magnitude.
At level 30, 30 hd would be the lowest for magnitude 1. 300 HD for magnitude 2. 3000 HD for magnitude 3. 30k HD for magnitude 4. 30,000,000,000 HD for magnitude 10.

[Welknair]

I'd say have it be CL * 10^N HD to determine magnitude.
At level 30, 30 hd would be the lowest for magnitude 1. 300 HD for magnitude 2. 3000 HD for magnitude 3. 30k HD for magnitude 4. 30,000,000,000 HD for magnitude 10.

1. I think you posted this on the wrong thread... I haven't actually posted my restriction system here yet...

2. The problem with that is the creators of this system cared not one wit for how powerful any given caster was. It makes no difference on how much they should be allowed to alter fate. If anything, there should be a tighter watch on the higher level casters.

[jojolagger]

1. I think you posted this on the wrong thread... I haven't actually posted my restriction system here yet...
The other option was you're magitech thread, which would be even worse placement.


2. The problem with that is the creators of this system cared not one wit for how powerful any given caster was. It makes no difference on how much they should be allowed to alter fate. If anything, there should be a tighter watch on the higher level casters.
But more powerful casters should have more influence, and those at higher CL would likely be more resistant the "Magic Backlash"

[Welknair]

But more powerful casters should have more influence, and those at higher CL would likely be more resistant the "Magic Backlash"

They still have quite a deal of influence and they lose only a smidge of their power. They just need to learn how to use it properly. Gandalf followed these rules pretty closely and would anyone say he was a wuss?

*Grumble grumble*

I'll add something so higher level Wizards can get bonuses against it...

And perhaps I should repost the big blurb about the restriction idea? :smallconfused:

[jojolagger]

And perhaps I should repost the big blurb about the restriction idea? :smallconfused:

Probably. Copy paste. :smallsmile:

[Welknair]

Quote from my Magitech thread, which will hopefully make the last few posts make a tad more sense:



Among other things you may have seen my Post-Enlightenment Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188535), in which I got some interesting opinions on the future of a standard D&D game with escalating magic and all that. The overall consensus was that we end up with either a Magipocalypse or some sort of rule system that prevents wizards from taking over the universe. These eventualities are based upon whether the first epic-level wizards are the crazy kind or the sane kind. Assuming the latter, I created an entire sub-system for a hypothetical Epic-Level spell that they would have made together to prevent the former. If you've ever played Exalted, it's akin to the Sidereal's Arcane Fate.

Namely, whenever you cast a spell which alters the course of someone's life significantly (Not including undoing the work of other casters who have altered said person's life) then you have committed an Offense. Offenses have Magnitudes ranging from 0 to 10 where 0 is a non-offense (0 affected significantly) while a 10 is 1,000,000+ people being affected. Once you have done this, you now have a Magnitude Score equal to the highest magnitude crime you have committed. Whenever you cast a spell you roll a d10 and if the result is your score or below, something bad happens. You roll a d20 against a table based upon your current Magnitude. So at a Magnitude 1, the spell may simply fail. At 10, you could manage to lose all spellcasting powers for the next 6 months or so. In either case, after (Current Mag) weeks, your Magnitude goes down by one. Similarly you can try to undo an Offense that you have committed and then receive an Atonement spell absolving you of the Magnitude set by that crime.

The result is that most adventurers would have a pretty consistent Magnitude 1 or 2 from monsters they've killed causing a bit of unpredictability in their casting. It also prevents crazy Epic-Level Wizards from controlling the world (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/World_Domination_%283.5e_Epic_Spell%29). At the same time it urges casters to be more subtle with their magic and tend towards mundane means of nudging things along rather than just nuking the BBEG. They end up a bit like the Istaari! :smallbiggrin:

So I thought this was quite neat. I'm planning of having a PrC along the lines of the Occult Slayer but focused moreso on this system (possibly with a Smite that deals variable damage based on the current Mag on the target) as well either a feat or another PrC for people trying to work their way around this system. So I'm not sure whether to include this in the potential Lords of Magitech or to post it here... Oh and I've named it "The Convention of Arcane Limitations".

[Callista]

Well, there's Dragonlance's Test which stops mages from learning higher level spells unless they risk their lives taking it...

I don't remember the origins of the test, but I'm pretty sure it was either epic wizards or else the gods of magic in that setting. Anybody care to check?

[LibraryOgre]

Well, there's Dragonlance's Test which stops mages from learning higher level spells unless they risk their lives taking it...

I don't remember the origins of the test, but I'm pretty sure it was either epic wizards or else the gods of magic in that setting. Anybody care to check?

IIRC, the Gods of Magic wanted magic to be controlled, instead of a free-for-all. Thus, the Orders of Magic were established, and they control the teaching of students. By controlling the apprenticeships of people, they block a lot of people from casually gaining magical power. By controlling upper-level spells, to an extent (they obviously can't prevent people from finding a powerful spellbook), they further restrict others from getting that level of power.

Mind you, if you play by their rules, they don't restrict you at all... and their rules largely consist of "Don't make the peasants mad" and "Don't spread magic around too much". That black robe want to kill meddling white robes? Go right ahead... but don't burn his spellbooks. Sell them at the Tower, instead.

[Gnoman]

Close. The gods of magic wanted to keep anyone from making magic look bad, either by abusing their power (such as impersonating a diety) or by trying spells beyond their strength and taking half a villiage with them into the abyss. Their main rules were "never damage the Art" and "no fighting in the Tower." The latter is amusing because you could have a Black robe casually slaughtering White robes one day and borrowing a bit of bat guano from one the next.

[Lord Raziere]

....then how are the white mages still around.....?