[3.5] War Hulking Kobold!

[tuesdayscoming]

I'm looking for a permanent way to increase a creature's size category by +1. I will be applying the Half-Minotaur template to a creature, but need an additional size bump over and above.

I'm trying to qualify a dragonwrought kobold for the War Hulk class from Miniatures Handbook, which requires large size or greater. Any ideas?

[Last Laugh]

Stoneblessed (Golaith) and Golaith Barbarian 1 will boost your size TO large while raging.

Stoneblessed can be entered at level 3 and provides +2 con.

both are found in races of stone.

[Lord.Sorasen]

Stoneblessed (Golaith) and Golaith Barbarian 1 will boost your size TO large while raging.

Stoneblessed can be entered at level 3 and provides +2 con.

both are found in races of stone.

Can you use the effects of rage in order to meet prestige class prerequisites?

[tuesdayscoming]

Can you use the effects of rage in order to meet prestige class prerequisites?

I'd rule that no, you can't. Hence the 'Permanent' in my OP.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Variant Half-Fiend (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) will do it as long as you base it off a Huge or bigger creature. For example, a half-Goristro (FC1) would get a size increase, Str +8, Con +8, +5 natural armor, two slam attacks which each count as two-handed weapons, DR for either Cold Iron or Good, and three of the standard spell-like abilities swapped out for Fear, Levitate, and Spider Climb, along with any of the standard half-fiend traits those didn't replace, for a +4 LA.

[Private-Prinny]

There's always the quick and dirty Permanancy'd Enlarge Person, but you would need to be careful around Dispel Magic.

[tuesdayscoming]

Variant Half-Fiend (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) stuff...

Man, that is one crazy template. A whopping +4LA though, my lord... With Half-Minotaur that puts us at +5, but it does get us some crazy impressive stat bonuses from the two size bumps... Might actually be worth it, since we're going to be taking this sucker the way of the War Hulking Hurler :smallbiggrin:. And it would DEFINITELY compensate for the kobold's racial -4 strength

edit: Hmm... Half Minotaur + Half Fiend + Half Dragonwrought Kobold = 1.5x the win? Is this technically legal?


There's always the quick and dirty Permanancy'd Enlarge Person, but you would need to be careful around Dispel Magic.

Would this type of growth count towards the PrC reqs, tho? I was under the impression that all requirements had to be fulfilled by the creature in its 'natural' state (with the exception of ability scores, which can be pumped with items).

edit: Dragonwrought Kobolds aren't humanoid, and thus are not valid targets for the spell. Damn.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Arctic or Desert Kobold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm), Arctic loses two fewer Str points for a -2 Wis, Desert has no Con penalty for -2 Wis.

Two half-race templates are fine, you can find explanations in Savage Species. Basically, it goes Half-Minotaur Kobold parent + Goristro parent = Half-Fiend Half-Minotuar Kobold babies.

Small to Large is Str +12, Dex -4, Con +6, and +2 natural armor.
Half-Minotaur is Str +4, Con +2, Int -2, and +2 natural armor, among other stuff.
Half-Fiend-Goristro is Str +8, Con +8, and +5 natural armor, among other stuff.

Kobold is Str -4, Dex +2, Con -2, +1 natural armor, or Arctic is Str -2, Dex +2, Con -2, Wis -2, +1 natural armor, or Desert is Str -4, Dex +2, Wis -2, +1 natural armor.

Kobolds (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) get 2 claws and a bite, Half-Minotaur gets a gore, and Half-Fiend-Goristro would get the parent's 2 slams which are each considered two-handed weapons. You'll definitely want Multiattack, and I'd get Knock-Back from Races of Stone with at least two Fighter levels with the Dungeoncrasher ACF in Dungeonscape. I'd also get at least one Barbarian level with the Lion spiritual totem ACF in Complete Champion for Pounce, preferably Wolf-Totem Barbarian to get Improved Trip for free so you can get Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown). At War Hulk 4 each of your attacks will hit three adjacent squares, and at War Hulk 10 every attack you make will hit every opponent in reach. Slam a few guys back to a wall, then rush in and pummel them against it until they're all reduced to mush. You could also get Dragon Wings and Improved Dragon Wings, and flying over opponents you could bull rush them into the ground. With Combat Reflexes and Large and In Charge from the Draconomicon nothing would be able to escape you.

[herrhauptmann]

Why go crazy with various half fiends?
Half ogre, and half minotaur. Should probably apply half ogre first for a higher strength.
Alternatively, there's a build called Tiny Mc Large Von Huge or something. 1 kobold that manages to qualify for all those size categories.

Regarding enlarge person, as a DM, I'd rule that you can't use magic items and spells to qualify for feats, prestige classes, and similar things (except for one PrC in 3.0 Song and silence). So the OP should doublecheck with the DM beforehand.

[tuesdayscoming]

Biffoniacus_Furiou, thank you so much for actually taking the time to write all of that up! I'm actually getting this character to large specifically so that he qualifies for the War Hulk class. Trying to make a modified War Hulking Hurler as one possible build for my current project (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10438189#post10438189)


Why go crazy with various half fiends?
Half ogre, and half minotaur. Should probably apply half ogre first for a higher strength.
Alternatively, there's a build called Tiny Mc Large Von Huge or something. 1 kobold that manages to qualify for all those size categories.


I think I'm going to have to go this route, though I like the flavor significantly less. Unfortunately, the LA+5 of the fiend/minotaur would prevent me from getting the requisite 5 BAB needed for War Hulk 10 / Hulking Hurler 2. I miss out on 4 points of strength, 6 con, and a ton of other neat abilities by going minotaur/ogre, but with LA buyoff I gain 5 levels to spend on whatever base class I like. Which is nice.

[SiuiS]

Jotunbrud is a forgotten realms feat which says, specifically, you count as large. Not one size category bigger, but straight large. The catch? The prereqs are to be from a certain area- where there are no kobolds.

If you can talk your DM into letting you have a kobold from that province who's family bred with giants, or just waive the prereqs because they don't youse forgotten realms as a setting, you're golden. Throw on half minotaur and then go to town as a "huge" kobold with a massive grapple mod.

[tuesdayscoming]

Jotunbrud is a forgotten realms feat which says, specifically, you count as large. Not one size category bigger, but straight large. The catch? The prereqs are to be from a certain area- where there are no kobolds.

Good catch, but the prereqs specifically require human, not just the region. To handwave such a thing would be going further than I'm comfortable with, I'm afraid.

[Person_Man]

Increasing Size, Effective Size, Unarmed Damage, Reach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777).

That's most of the methods that most of the Playground is collectively aware of. My suggestion is to be a Kobold Entomanothrope (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a) (+2 LA + relevant vermin hit dice), and find a Large vermin to change into, like a Swordspider. That would also save you from having to take the Half-Minotaur template.

Also, why are you going through the trouble of being a Kobold? A standard Half-Ogre Cleric (for Divine Might, to boost your BAB) would have a much easier time. Are you planning on going into something else weird that requires the dragon type?

Now that I think of it, a Kobold Entromanothrope Hidecarved Dragon would be hilarious. Anyone know a Vermin with +10-15ish Natural Armor?

[Tyndmyr]

Can you use the effects of rage in order to meet prestige class prerequisites?

As long as you fulfill the prereqs of a class at the time you take a level in it, you're good. By RAW, items and such are specifically called out as effective. Personally, any item that gets you enlarge capability should suffice. Permanencied would be safest, but yeah, carry around an extra scroll or item in case of dispel, or pack some counter-dispel items.

You can qualify for enlarge via anything that temporarily changes type. Although...does dragonwrought change your type to draconic or merely add draconic? Because kobolds are humanoid by default.

Person Man, it's for qualification for the epic feat Distant Shot pre-epic, allowing interplanetary bombardment.

[Greenish]

Although...does dragonwrought change your type to draconic or merely add draconic?Dragonwrought changes the type to Dragon.

[Cieyrin]

[Now that I think of it, a Kobold Entromanothrope Hidecarved Dragon would be hilarious. Anyone know a Vermin with +10-15ish Natural Armor?

Giant Stag Beetles have NA +10, Huge Monstrous Scorpions and up are +12 and increasing.

[Bayar]

Tiny VonBigMcLargeHuge (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6428.0) seems to be exactly what you are looking for.

[tuesdayscoming]

My suggestion is to be a Kobold Entomanothrope (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a)


If I'm reading it correctly, it seems that the template will only let you be a vermin of your base size +1. Thus, kobold entomanothrope maxes out at medium.


Tiny VonBigMcLargeHuge (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6428.0) seems to be exactly what you are looking for.

I don't understand how he's getting the human subtype for Jotunbrud. Sounds like the player in question's DM just hand-waved the thing for RP reasons. If there's a legal way to do it, then wonderful, but I don't see it working.

Additionally, the net +16str or whatever I'd pick up for half minotaur/half ogre is worth the 2LA for a Hulking Hurler, I think. If I'm not mistaken it's really all that the build cares about. Even if I picked up Jotunbrud by some other means, I very much doubt that I'd find two levels of just about anything that would give me such a huge benefit.

[Person_Man]

If I'm reading it correctly, it seems that the template will only let you be a vermin of your base size +1. Thus, kobold entomanothrope maxes out at medium.

Ah, right you are. So you would need to be a Half-Minotaur Kobold if you wanted to be a Large size entomanothrope. But again, is there a reason why you're wedded to kobold?

[Tyndmyr]

Person Man, it's for qualification for the epic feat Distant Shot pre-epic, allowing interplanetary bombardment.

If we're doing an epic build, kobold can go out the window...or if we want to invest in getting true dragon creatively in another way.

There's a number of ways to extend range, but none of them are as amazingly broken as Distant Shot is.

[Bayar]

I don't understand how he's getting the human subtype for Jotunbrud. Sounds like the player in question's DM just hand-waved the thing for RP reasons. If there's a legal way to do it, then wonderful, but I don't see it working.

Well yeah, you would need a DM to hand-wave the regional requirements for the feat if you are not actually playing in the FR.

[Tyndmyr]

Well, there's a regional requirement and a racial requirement. Handwaving the regional one is quite easy to assume if the region does not exist, yes...but it doesn't imply that the GM would also toss out the racial requirement. Humans are pretty consistent across settings.

[tuesdayscoming]

But again, is there a reason why you're wedded to kobold?

As Tyndmyr mentioned, its so that we can cheese our way into the Distant Shot epic feat at level 17. The character concept is basically a satellite floating at a ridiculous altitude that can obliterate targets with pinpoint accuracy. The current solution I'm working on is a Dragonwrought Kobold Hulking Hurler, though I'll likely come up with several completely different builds before settling on it.


Well yeah, you would need a DM to hand-wave the regional requirements for the feat if you are not actually playing in the FR.

I'm not concerned about the regional requirements, but IIRC, doesn't Jotunbrud specifically require Human, much like Able Learner?


If we're doing an epic build, kobold can go out the window...or if we want to invest in getting true dragon creatively in another way.

There's a number of ways to extend range, but none of them are as amazingly broken as Distant Shot is.

Well the passage on epic feats in Draconomicon (can't recall page number right now... I wanna say 94?) doesn't actually specify 'True Dragon', but you do hear that come up in arguments regarding the viability of this admittedly cheesy entry. I don't know why. Still, if I'm not mistaken RAW lets you do it with any Dragon of 'Old' or greater, so you could technically qualify with any creature bearing the SRD's Half-Dragon template, could you not?

edit: Ninja'd by Tyndmyr

[herrhauptmann]

Jotunbrud is a forgotten realms feat which says, specifically, you count as large. Not one size category bigger, but straight large. The catch? The prereqs are to be from a certain area- where there are no kobolds.

If you can talk your DM into letting you have a kobold from that province who's family bred with giants, or just waive the prereqs because they don't youse forgotten realms as a setting, you're golden. Throw on half minotaur and then go to town as a "huge" kobold with a massive grapple mod.

Jotunbrud lets you count as large (one size larger?) in opposed rolls such as sunder, disarm, grapple, overrun, swallow whole, etc. Does not grant you reach, larger weapons, powerful build, or actually be a large size. If it did, you'd see a lot of Jotunbrud human warhulking hurlers.

OP:
I don't know what happens if you put halfminotaur on a jotunbrud human.
If you're undecided on half ogre or minotaur, take half minotaur. It gives you a strength boost, then tells you to apply the boosts for increasing size again. Which is how you get that huge increase in strength and natural armor. More than any version of half ogre gives at least.

[tuesdayscoming]

If you're undecided on half ogre or minotaur, take half minotaur. It gives you a strength boost, then tells you to apply the boosts for increasing size again. Which is how you get that huge increase in strength and natural armor. More than any version of half ogre gives at least.

I'm pretty sure that both templates actually work this way. Was reading them last night and I thought that it was explicitly stated in both cases. Would make sense, since they're both from the same source.

edit: yep, just checked, and they both add their own strength bonus IN ADDITION to that from a size increase. Makes me a happy man.

[herrhauptmann]

Unless you're workign off of a different version of Half ogre than I am, no.
Half ogre gives you a size boost, and stat boosts.
Half ogre Minotaur gives you the stat boosts, a size boost, AND stat changes for the size boost.

edit for idiocy.

[tuesdayscoming]

Unless you're workign off of a different version of Half ogre than I am, no.
Half ogre gives you a size boost, and stat boosts.
Half minotaur gives you the stat boosts, a size boost, AND stat changes for the size boost.

Emphasis mine^^^ is that what you meant?

From Dragon 313, p96:
"The base creature's type does not change. If the creature is of Small or Medium size, it gains a size category, becoming Medium or Large respectively. See Table 4-2: Changes to Statistics by Size in the Monster Manual for changes to the base creature when it gains a size category. The changes in this template are in addition to the changes outlined there."

edit: This quotation is pulled from the half-ogre template

[Lord.Sorasen]

Why go crazy with various half fiends?
Half ogre, and half minotaur. Should probably apply half ogre first for a higher strength.
Alternatively, there's a build called Tiny Mc Large Von Huge or something. 1 kobold that manages to qualify for all those size categories.

Regarding enlarge person, as a DM, I'd rule that you can't use magic items and spells to qualify for feats, prestige classes, and similar things (except for one PrC in 3.0 Song and silence). So the OP should doublecheck with the DM beforehand.

The build in particular is called Tiny Von Big McLargeHuge. http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=v95f6a0m5btt1bi99jo66k2247&topic=6428.0 There's the link. The text reads...


Male kobold psychic warrior 2 [human, dragonblooded] with compression and expansion, using the web enhancement from RotD and Slight Build. Take Jotunbrud (Races of Faerun) and the Touchstone feat: Sunken City of Pazar (Sandstorm).

He now may elect to count as being Diminutive, Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge, and Gargantuan.

The way he does this?

His actual size is Small. Slight build lets him count as Tiny. Touchstone (alternately: expansion) allows him to count as Medium. Compression gives him Diminutive. Jotunbrud lets him count as Large. Expansion pushes off of Jotunbrud to allow him to count as Huge. Touchstone (springboarding off of both expansion and Jotunbrud) allows him to count as Gargantuan.

At level 7, he can become Fine (compression) and Colossal (expansion).

I don't know how but I was ninja'd at least 4 times.

[SurlySeraph]

half-Goristro (FC1) kobold

http://images.wikia.com/forgottenrealms/images/e/e2/Goristro.jpg
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs48/f/2009/231/f/e/Friendly_Cutebold_by_basketgardevoir.jpg

Well, isn't that a lovely mental image.

[flabort]

...

I don't get it.
Could someone explain the "mental image" Surly's talking about for the slower members like me?

[Volthawk]

...

I don't get it.
Could someone explain the "mental image" Surly's talking about for the slower members like me?

Put it like this. Those two would have to get it on for this half-breed kobold to be born.

[Erom]

The first picture is of the Goristo. It's very, very big. The second picture is a kobold in the "cutebold" style (which I think originated with Dwarf Fortress, not sure). It's pretty small.

There are some... problems with this potential mating pair. Even if you reverse the genders... it's still not a pretty picture.

[Dr.Epic]

Enlarge Person + Permanency

Enjoy!

[flabort]

:smalleek:...
Gotcha. OK. Trying not to imagine tha...
Wait. ugh. too late.

[herrhauptmann]

Emphasis mine^^^ is that what you meant?

From Dragon 313, p96:
"The base creature's type does not change. If the creature is of Small or Medium size, it gains a size category, becoming Medium or Large respectively. See Table 4-2: Changes to Statistics by Size in the Monster Manual for changes to the base creature when it gains a size category. The changes in this template are in addition to the changes outlined there."

Ok, fixed my last post. Can't believe I didn't catch that. But yes, that is exactly what I meant.
Anyway, to the best of my knowledge, only half minotaur gets that particular line. None of the half ogres versions get it, nor pretty much any other template that gives a size boost. And I'm sorry, but I'm not working through every line of every book and magazine I have to find otherwise.

geh, can't type today...

[tuesdayscoming]

Ok, fixed my last post. Can't believe I didn't catch that. But yes, that is exactly what I meant.
Anyway, to the best of my knowledge, only half minotaur gets that particular line. None of the half ogres versions get it, nor pretty much any other template that gives a size boost. And I'm sorry, but I'm not working through every line of every book and magazine I have to find otherwise.

geh, can't type today...

Oh, no worries, good sir. I appreciate your taking the time to read and comment on my post at all! Certainly don't expect a thorough rereading of any and all relevant books :smallbiggrin:

Anyways, I should have been more clear, too. The quote I pulled is actually from the half ogre template. I'll go back up and clarify, apologies!