Qualify for Illithid Savant without being an Illithid?

[[CLASSIFIED]]

Title pretty much says it all– can anybody think of a way to qualify for Illithid Savant without being an Illithid? This is a theoretical optimization question, and Google could not answer my questions in a satisfactory way, so I appeal to the playground for aid.

[HunterOfJello]

Ulitharids also qualify, but I don't think that's the answer you're looking for since they're ECL 21.

[Chuckthedwarf]

;10436162']Title pretty much says it all– can anybody think of a way to qualify for Illithid Savant without being an Illithid? This is a theoretical optimization question, and Google could not answer my questions in a satisfactory way, so I appeal to the playground for aid.

There's the half-illithid template from I think Fiend Folio (2?).

That might let you qualify. I remember it as having a fairly high LA, something like +4 or +6.

And then there's the illithid heritage feats, probably from Lords of Madness. I think they might let you qualify, you can get face tentacles and everything with enough feats.

Edit: Okay, Fiend Folio has it. Page 90, Half-Illithid template.
d8 hit dice, 4 tentacle attacks, mind blast, improved grab, extract, some psionic abilities scaling with your HD, darkvision, spell resistance of 10 + HD, telepathy (100 feet), +4 Int + 4 Wis + 4 Cha
+5 LA.

I'd imagine that might let you qualify. You can eat brains and everything.

Oh and the heritage feats are from Complete Psionic.

I don't know what you need to qualify for Illithid Savant though, care to remind me?

[Jarian]

AFB, but a Changeling with the Racial Emulation feat (or whatever the name is) might be able to consider itself an Illithid.

Then all you have to do is go out and kill a CR 9 monster and eat its brain. Yum.

Failing that, PaO is probably your friend, though then you technically are a mind flayer... don't know how you feel about that.

[MammonAzrael]

AFB, but a Changeling with the Racial Emulation feat (or whatever the name is) might be able to consider itself an Illithid.

Then all you have to do is go out and kill a CR 9 monster and eat its brain. Yum.

If that let me qualify for Illithid Savant, I wouldn't hesitate. And note that you don't have to kill the CR 9 monster, just eat the brain. So you could buy it, or hire mercenaries to kill it. :smalltongue:

*nomnomnom*

[Amnestic]

AFB, but a Changeling with the Racial Emulation feat (or whatever the name is) might be able to consider itself an Illithid.


Racial Emulation, Races of Eberron, pg. 110-111
"Though you do not gain any of the humanoid’s traits, you are considered to be a member of that race for all other purposes (allowing you to use magic items or spells keyed to race, for example)."

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that'd let you qualify.

[Waker]

Racial Emulation, Races of Eberron, pg. 110-111
"Though you do not gain any of the humanoid’s traits, you are considered to be a member of that race for all other purposes (allowing you to use magic items or spells keyed to race, for example)."
Nope. A closer reading shows that it only applies to humanoids. Mindflayers are aberrations.

[Urpriest]

I believe the traditional entry is with Polymorph Any Object, just like Beholder Mage. Any reason it would work in the latter case and not the former?

[Psyren]

Racial Emulation, Races of Eberron, pg. 110-111
"Though you do not gain any of the humanoid’s traits, you are considered to be a member of that race for all other purposes (allowing you to use magic items or spells keyed to race, for example)."

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that'd let you qualify.

One probem - Illithids are aberrations, not humanoids.
Psyrogue'd

[Amnestic]

Well bugger me, you're quite correct. Should've really known better. :smallredface:

[[CLASSIFIED]]

I don't know what you need to qualify for Illithid Savant though, care to remind me?

–10 ranks knowledge (arcana)
–must have consumed the brain of a creature of CR 9 or greater
–must be an Illithid

[HunterOfJello]

;10436636']–10 ranks knowledge (arcana)
–must have consumed the brain of a creature of CR 9 or greater
–must be an Illithid a Mind Flayer

FTFY

While the terms are usually synonymous, Ulitharids fall into the Mind Flayer category yet are not Illithids. There may be others in the category too, other than Alhoons and Vampire Illithid.

Specifics are also important for RAW interpretations.

[Chuckthedwarf]

;10436636']–10 ranks knowledge (arcana)
–must have consumed the brain of a creature of CR 9 or greater
–must be an Illithid

Then I guess my advice is practically useless.

With Half-Illithid template you do become an aberration and get pretty much all the illithid qualities, mind blast, psionics, face tentacles and extract... But it never says that you count as Illithid race.

Of course, as a DM I might have allowed it with half-illithid template - but the Illithid Savant is a pretty questionable class to allow in most campaigns.

I suppose if you're a shapeshifter race with half-illithid template, it might work. Spells would obviously work if you let them qualify you for stufff.

[MammonAzrael]

Well...you could take the first level of the Illithid monster class in Savage Species and not take any more levels in it. Not the best option...but not that terrible, either. And certainly better than being a "complete" illithid.

[senrath]

Don't you have to continue to take a Savage Progression once you start it?

[MammonAzrael]

Darn, that is actually the very second paragraph in the chapter. Put there explicitly to prevent taking advantage of the monster's type. :smallsigh:

Damn WotC, making awesome class that either suck to enter or require broken cheese. I guess the only really good way is to spend 2400 gp to pay a wizard to cast polymorph any object on you twice.

[Arutema]

Don't you have to continue to take a Savage Progression once you start it?

Yes. you can't multiclass untill you finish a Savage Progression.

[OracleofWuffing]

–10 ranks knowledge (arcana)
–must have consumed the brain of a creature of CR 9 or greater
–must be a Mind Flayer

Wait.

I got it.

Change your name to "Mind Flayer."

:tongue:

[mabriss lethe]

I think Savage Species had something in it, a ritual that allowed you to qualify as a member of another race. They don't look very well written, though

[Vangor]

Wait.

I got it.

Change your name to "Mind Flayer."

:tongue:

Oracle has my mention, call yourself "Whomever Mind Flayer". You are technically "a Mind Flayer" in the same way Roy is "a Greenhilt". Did this with my Halfling Divine Prankster by naming him "Jared, Paladin of Helm". Never once lied about his faith or profession.

[Thurbane]

Larval Flayer, from CS, only has 2HD (but no listed LA). If you were an aberration, could you Alter Self into a Larval Flayer to qualify for Illithid Savant - I guess it would need to be permanent, or Persisted. Maybe a custom "always on" item of Alter Self?

Not sure if Larval Flayer would qualify for a Mind Flayer to enter the PrC. Also, Alter Self shenanigans would require you to be a Small Aberration.

[HunterOfJello]

Oracle has my mention, call yourself "Whomever Mind Flayer". You are technically "a Mind Flayer" in the same way Roy is "a Greenhilt". Did this with my Halfling Divine Prankster by naming him "Jared, Paladin of Helm". Never once lied about his faith or profession.

The specific requirement for the prestige class is, "Race:Mind flayer".

[Vangor]

The specific requirement for the prestige class is, "Race:Mind flayer".

Oh, I thought it was one of the "Special:" requirements. Couldn't recall the book the IS was from, but you're correct. Oh well.

[Hecuba]

I think Savage Species had something in it, a ritual that allowed you to qualify as a member of another race. They don't look very well written, though

Ritual of Association would get you a "Racial type or subtype" as long as it isn't one of the standardized humanoid subtypes. Depends on if a "racial type" of mind flayer would work.

The other rituals seem to actually make you a mind flayer and get you the whole ECL, which might defeat the purpose of this whole shebang.

[faceroll]

Lost Tradition, a feat from the 3rd party 3.0 book Bastards & Bloodlines lets you count as a race for any purposes.

[BobVosh]

My name is Race:Mind Flayer.

Starting to sound like that fellow from the monty python skit with Hugh Laurie

[Coidzor]

Aberration Wildshape?

[[CLASSIFIED]]

Ritual of Association would get you a "Racial type or subtype" as long as it isn't one of the standardized humanoid subtypes. Depends on if a "racial type" of mind flayer would work.


That's a really good idea, although I think that whether it would work depends on your interpretation of the text. The ritual's text says specifically that you gain the subtype, but the benefit of the ritual is that you can use magic items as if you were a member of that race. It also says that you gain no abilities of that kind of monster.

Would this be enough to qualify as an Illithid for the purpose of entering a prestige class?

[FelixG]

Try a double casting of Polymorph Any Object? Change into a Mind flayer with an unlimited duration and take the class then hop into whatever body you want next?

[[CLASSIFIED]]

Try a double casting of Polymorph Any Object? Change into a Mind flayer with an unlimited duration and take the class then hop into whatever body you want next?

When you hopped into the next body, would you not no longer qualify for Illithid Savant, as you would no longer be an Illithid?

[FMArthur]

;10439371']When you hopped into the next body, would you not no longer qualify for Illithid Savant, as you would no longer be an Illithid?

Depends on whether Savage Species is one of the books from which prestige class features are all lost when you stop meeting its requirements. Otherwise you only lose the ability to take further levels in it. I think Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane may be the only 3.5 books that do it but I'm not nearly as familiar with 3.0.

[Keld Denar]

Unless you ate the brain of another illithid savant to gain the ability to be an illithid savant. Recursive savant-ness!

[FMArthur]

Unless you ate the brain of another illithid savant to gain the ability to be an illithid savant. Recursive savant-ness!

The recursion is the only way I can see the class getting broken. Acquire Class Feature someone who's already used one Acquire Class Feature and has his next one open for use. Free ability. He can even be resurrected with a fresh brain. :smallbiggrin:

But if you did lose your prestige class's features, Acquire Class Feature and all the crap you collected with it, recursive or no, would disappear.

[AtomicKitKat]

Aberration Wildshape?

This. Once again, CoDzilla wins the day.:smallfrown:

[[CLASSIFIED]]

Depends on whether Savage Species is one of the books from which prestige class features are all lost when you stop meeting its requirements. Otherwise you only lose the ability to take further levels in it. I think Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane may be the only 3.5 books that do it but I'm not nearly as familiar with 3.0.
Do you know where in Savage Species it would say whether you lose all class features if you no longer qualify for a prestige class?

[FMArthur]

I don't know, man, it's Savage Species. They could be written into a horrible monster race or an overpowered template somewhere. But normally it'd be right at the start of the Prestige Classes section. :smallwink:

[[CLASSIFIED]]

I don't know, man, it's Savage Species. They could be written into a horrible monster race or an overpowered template somewhere. But normally it'd be right at the start of the Prestige Classes section. :smallwink:
Thanks for the answer to what was, in hindsight, a dumb question.

After looking though, it doesn't seem to mention anything about no longer qualifying for a prestige class. Looking around a little more, the topic appears to be rather heavily debated, with some saying that the Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior's text applies to every prestige class and some saying that those books' text only applies to their own contents. If anyone has an official ruling, that would be rather helpful.

[FMArthur]

I don't know if Wizards of the Coast themselves have said anything, but do you want Dragon Disciple to work, or do you want it to dismantle itself as a capstone? If the latter, then you can choose to believe that the CW & CA text applies to everything.

[MammonAzrael]

Aberration Wildshape?

Sadly, no. I thought of this, but wild shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape) functions like alternate form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) (with addendum). The very first bullet is:


The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.

So yeah, sadly you can look like a mind flayer, smell like a mind flayer, eat like a mind flayer, but the rules say you aren't one.

[OracleofWuffing]

The specific requirement for the prestige class is, "Race:Mind flayer".

Darn, and I was about to suggest disguising a beehive as a brain and setting it under a box with a stick propping it up in front of a mindflayer if you were already settled on a name... :smallfrown: How good are you at building go-karts?

[JaronK]

I don't know if Wizards of the Coast themselves have said anything, but do you want Dragon Disciple to work, or do you want it to dismantle itself as a capstone? If the latter, then you can choose to believe that the CW & CA text applies to everything.

There's a general unwritten rule that a class can't disqualify itself. It was never actually stated, but there's a few classes like DD that would do so automatically otherwise.

JaronK

[classy one]

This has a more general question of what makes a "race: Mind flayer"

From what I have read, you need to be a Mind Flayer, or one of there sub-species, on a permenant basis to qualify. So no shapeshifting, polmorph, metamorph etc.

Good news: you don't have to be illithid. You could be half-illithid, Ulitharids, larva.

Bad news: For anyone making a non Mind Flayer PC.

I assume the question is: how can my non-illithid PC become a illithid savant?

As a DM I would say Flayerspawn Psychic and/or the Illithid heritage feats would be the closest to becoming a Mind Flayer fluff-wise. The Illithid heritage feats expressily state "you have illithid blood in you".

Flyerspawn Psychic gives you mind blast as a PLA, just like a real illithid (but with a limit on how often you can use it) as well as some more illithid feats. In order to eat brains like an illithid you will need a total of 5 more feats (not counting what you needed to qualify for FSP) which are 4 tentacles and extraction.

By the end of your transformation (which could be done by a psion5/FSP7 I believe) you can do most things an illithid can do (at lower ML and less times a day), look like an illithid, eat brains like a pro, and offically have illithid blood in your veins (somehow).

Although that is not as easy as it sounds since you have to dump a bunch of feats into mostly useless feats (don't forget improved grapple!) and FSP is one of the worst PrC in the game (unless you do ardent/FSP), but I think any reasonable DM would allow it.

[Thurbane]

Does Half-illithid qualify you as a Mind Flayer? From memory, the sample Half-illithid Lizard Folk in the FF is an Aberration with the (Reptilian) subtype.

Does the Underdark version of the template update or change it?

[Hecuba]

I don't know if Wizards of the Coast themselves have said anything, but do you want Dragon Disciple to work, or do you want it to dismantle itself as a capstone? If the latter, then you can choose to believe that the CW & CA text applies to everything.

I have a easier time believing in bad and inconsistent editing than in a mechanical rule that is intentionally makes prestige classes function differently merely based on what books they are in.

[Urpriest]

Does Half-illithid qualify you as a Mind Flayer? From memory, the sample Half-illithid Lizard Folk in the FF is an Aberration with the (Reptilian) subtype.

Does the Underdark version of the template update or change it?

There isn't a Mind Flayer subtype. Mind Flayer, like True Beholder (and, more controversially, True Dragon), refers to a particular set of statblocks and things derived from those statblocks. There is no more modular game element you can attach the term to.

[Thurbane]

OK, so could you be a Hlaf-illithid Incarnate Construct Warforged for +3 LA? :smalltongue:

[Hecuba]

Good news: you don't have to be illithid. You could be half-illithid, Ulitharids, larva.

There are a couple others that might work: Mindwitnesses are the result of inserting a larva into a beholder. Presumably, they would qualify (though, sadly, they probably wouldn't also count as true beholders, since the outcome of putting a larva in a human doesn't retain the racial qualities of a human).

Presumably, an elder brain would qualify.

Illithocytes are at least looking into. They would seem to qualify at least as easily as Neolithids.

[[CLASSIFIED]]

OK, so could you be a Hlaf-illithid Incarnate Construct Warforged for +3 LA? :smalltongue:
It says in the Half-Illithid template description that the template cannot be applied to constructs.

Also, a question about the Half-Illithid template: although it doesn't specifically say anywhere that you count as a Mind Flayer or Illithid if you have the template, would you consider it to have similar properties to a half-elf, which has the elven blood racial feature that allows it to be considered an elf for all race-based purposes? The half-orc has the same feature except you are considered an orc, not an elf.

[SurlySeraph]

Larval Flayer, from CS, only has 2HD (but no listed LA). If you were an aberration, could you Alter Self into a Larval Flayer to qualify for Illithid Savant - I guess it would need to be permanent, or Persisted. Maybe a custom "always on" item of Alter Self?

Not sure if Larval Flayer would qualify for a Mind Flayer to enter the PrC. Also, Alter Self shenanigans would require you to be a Small Aberration.

Permanency? Dispel would suck, but it's one approach. Or DMM Persist, with an obscure domain that includes Alter Self if there is one, Alternate Source Spell or Southern Magician if there isn't, on a Cleric/ wizard or psionicist with Reduce Self or Compression. Doesn't look too hard.
Though that's assuming Larval Flayer counts as a mind flayer.

[CycloneJoker]

;10443889']It says in the Half-Illithid template description that the template cannot be applied to constructs.

Also, a question about the Half-Illithid template: although it doesn't specifically say anywhere that you count as a Mind Flayer or Illithid if you have the template, would you consider it to have similar properties to a half-elf, which has the elven blood racial feature that allows it to be considered an elf for all race-based purposes? The half-orc has the same feature except you are considered an orc, not an elf.

Incarnate Construct makes you a humanoid. Or a giant, if you're large.