Flesh Golems and SR

[panaikhan]

I ran into this problem the weekend.

Flesh golems are "immune to any spell that allows spell resistance".
They are, however, healed by lightning damage (most spells which do this, offer SR) and slowed by fire damage (again, most spells which do this, offer SR).

There are even spells that still have an effect, if the SR protects the creature in question.

Are Golems simply blanket-immune? or do fire and lightning have an effect anyway? It states that a golem gets no save vs the effects outlined above, but SR is before saves, isn't it?

[Psyren]

I think the SR applies first; however, there are plenty of lightning effects that bypass SR: Lightning Orbs, Arc of Lightning, natural Lightning (including that coming out of a Weather Control spell), Focalor's Lightning etc. Any of these would overcome the golem's protection but end up absorbed.

The problem is that none of these are core, but the golems are. Maybe they were planning on making SR: No spells in the future... not sure.

[Aharon]

Completely RAW, because of the wording (In addition...), the immunity would trigger first, and nothing happen if they are targeted with SR:yes electricity damage dealing spells.

RAI, I think their spell resistance isn't supposed to trigger for those spells.
(Reason: Golems are ported rather faithfully from 2nd edition, where they had the following ability:

Flesh golems can only be struck by a magical weapon. Fire and cold based spells merely slow them for 2-12 (2d6) rounds. Any electrical attack restores 1 hit point for each die of damage it would normally have done. All other spells are ignored by the creature.)

[Psyren]

Yeah, this sounds like a legacy kerfluffle to me too. Trying to translate their abilities to 3e but ham-fistedly giving them Magic Immunity without making an exception for the stuff that's supposed to work on them.

[Aldizog]

Magic Immunity worked in 3.0 much as it did in 2E. The fire and lightning were explicitly called out as exceptions to it.

3.5 changed it to be a form of Spell Resistance -- and then added a ton of SR-ignoring spells because, apparently, wizards were too weak and needed a boost.

Incidentally, this led to a reversal of 2E's situation where "magical fire" such as a Fireball was better than "nonmagical fire" such as a great wyrm red dragon's breath, as the former could hurt a fire giant and the latter could not. In 3E, you want your Orb of Fire spell invented by an in-game-world rules-lawyer, "Oh, it just uses magic to conjure a fist-sized ball of ordinary nonmagical fire that happens to do 15d6 damage," as that not only ignores SR but supposedly works in an antimagic field. Neither one is a particularly satisfying situation to me.

[lightningcat]

Fire and electricity are specific exceptions to their magic immunity. They would be effected normally by any SR: no spells except those that deal fire or electrical damage, which the Immunity to Magic would still effect.



Immunity to Magic (Ex)
A flesh golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

A magical attack that deals cold or fire damage slows a flesh golem (as the slow spell) for 2d6 rounds, with no saving throw.

A magical attack that deals electricity damage breaks any slow effect on the golem and heals 1 point of damage for every 3 points of damage the attack would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the golem to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. For example, a flesh golem hit by a lightning bolt heals 3 points of damage if the attack would have dealt 11 points of damage. A flesh golem golem gets no saving throw against attacks that deal electricity damage.

[No brains]

Yeah, this sounds like a legacy kerfluffle to me too. Trying to translate their abilities to 3e but ham-fistedly giving them Magic Immunity without making an exception for the stuff that's supposed to work on them.

I'm making this my signature.:smallbiggrin: Hope you don't mind!


Fire and electricity are specific exceptions to their magic immunity. They would be effected normally by any SR: no spells except those that deal fire or electrical damage, which the Immunity to Magic would still effect.

So it looks like they did make an exception after all... wait- even if a spell would affect them differently, can it still affect them beyond its immunity?:smalleek:

[Keld Denar]

I've wondered this before. If you look at other golems that are explicitly affected by certain spells, and some of those explicit spells having SR, I'd be inclined to believe that you check the explicit list before you apply the blanket immunity.

Example: Clay Golems are explicitly slowed by a Disintegrate spell. Disintegrate is SR: Yes. Thus, a Clay Golem should be completely immune to Disintegrate, and that line of text is completely meaningless. If you are supposed to check the exclusions list before determining if a spell is affected by Spell Immunity, then it would still be relevant.

This makes me believe that RAI is that lightning and fire affects on a flesh golem would NOT be subject to SR, even if the spell is SR: Yes. Thus, you could Fireball a flesh golem, but instead of taking damage as normal, it would have the alternative effect.

[panaikhan]

Thank you everyone.

This is how I thought it would work, I just wasn't sure.

My Quest Is Complete. This Thread Has Served It's Purpose. :smallbiggrin:

[Vva70]

Yeah. Remember that specific rules always trump general rules. Thus "A clay golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance" is a general rule. The specific rule is "In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature...A disintegrate spell slows the golem (as the slow spell) for 1d6 rounds and deals 1d12 points of damage." Note that the rules for Move Earth and Earthquake are also exceptions to the way that those spells normally work, because a Clay Golem is not a valid target for their normal functions.

[KillianHawkeye]

Example: Clay Golems are explicitly slowed by a Disintegrate spell. Disintegrate is SR: Yes. Thus, a Clay Golem should be completely immune to Disintegrate, and that line of text is completely meaningless. If you are supposed to check the exclusions list before determining if a spell is affected by Spell Immunity, then it would still be relevant.

The thing is, Clay Golems ARE immune to the effects of disintegrate. They don't take the damage. They just have an additional clause which states that being hit by a disintegrate spell slows them.

Similarly, Flesh Golems don't take the damage from fire or lightning spells, but being hit by them has an additional effect. That's why it says "In addition...."