[D&D 3.x] One body, two undead?

[Jergmo]

In my campaign, a villain was killed, and now he's back as a wraith, brought back through Epic magic. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/animateDead.htm) However, now I'm left with an interesting question.

His body is still there. Can the body be brought back as an undead puppet, preferably something other than a zombie? What is the most powerful form of undead that comes to mind? :smallconfused: Wight comes to mind, but is that my best option?

[Keld Denar]

A Dread Warrior (via Animate Dread Warrior or similar epic magics) would work. He'd retain all of his old feats and class abilities. Other powerful corporial undead include Morhgs, Vampires, Liches, Mummies, and a few neat ones in LM and the MMIII.

On a related note, I wholey support this as an adventure idea!

[Jergmo]

A Dread Warrior (via Animate Dread Warrior or similar epic magics) would work. He'd retain all of his old feats and class abilities. Other powerful corporial undead include Morhgs, Vampires, Liches, Mummies, and a few neat ones in LM and the MMIII.

On a related note, I wholey support this as an adventure idea!

The thing that's got me confused is that I had it set up so his wraith (as his soul brought back from Hell) still has his class abilities and the like. Would it work having both of them with his class abilities?

[Keld Denar]

Probably. Think Evil Ash from Army of Darkness. Both bodies have a soul...kinda...

You could potentially even have body rebel against spirit, which would be an interesting twist. Maybe the epic magic that rent spirit from body also rent the soul along a good/evil axis. All of the evil went into the incorporial form while the goodness was trapped in the corporial form, despite being undead.

Now THAT is interesting.

[Jergmo]

Probably. Think Evil Ash from Army of Darkness. Both bodies have a soul...kinda...

You could potentially even have body rebel against spirit, which would be an interesting twist. Maybe the epic magic that rent spirit from body also rent the soul along a good/evil axis. All of the evil went into the incorporial form while the goodness was trapped in the corporial form, despite being undead.

Now THAT is interesting.

Ooh...

Thanks a bunch! Now I must be off to plot and scheme to break my players' characters' minds. :smallamused:

[Chilingsworth]

In my campaign, a villain was killed, and now he's back as a wraith, brought back through Epic magic. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/animateDead.htm) However, now I'm left with an interesting question.

His body is still there. Can the body be brought back as an undead puppet, preferably something other than a zombie? What is the most powerful form of undead that comes to mind? :smallconfused: Wight comes to mind, but is that my best option?

First off, why did you use epic magic for this task? A create undead (or create greater undead, at the most) should be pleanty to do the job. :smallconfused:

What you could do, I suppose, is turn his body into some sort of corporeal undead (say a Greater Mummy or an advanced wight) and have the wraith (maybe make it a dread wraith?) manifest after that was defeated.

[Jergmo]

First off, why did you use epic magic for this task? A create undead (or create greater undead, at the most) should be pleanty to do the job. :smallconfused:

What you could do, I suppose, is turn his body into some sort of corporeal undead (say a Greater Mummy or an advanced wight) and have the wraith (maybe make it a dread wraith?) manifest after that was defeated.

They've already faced the wraith version of him. Epic magic because...well, to make a long story short, they need to banish a demon lord that's trapped within one of the characters' minds who had been given a night of time to be free during the night in return for saving their butts in an earlier difficult encounter. And said demon lord went on a raising-everyone-who-if-undead-and-encountering-them-again-would-lead-towards-sanity-loss-of-players binge.

Now there are a couple of undead villains running wily nily. Also, a bunch of demons and demon-worshippers. Turns out you can do a lot when you have minions searching for you to begin with, you have hours of freedom and can cast Greater Teleport at will.

[Keld Denar]

Oh, or they could manifest other fascets of personality. Maybe the corporial body is ruthless and savage, while the incorporial body is calculating and logical. The PCs could encounter the BBEG arguing with himself about how to best vivisect the PCs. That could be kinda fun too.

I'd actually go with a spectre base, rather than a wraith. Spectres are WAY scarier, since negative levels are worse than ability damage, and there is no initial save vs the touch of a spectre unlike a wraith.

You can advance undead by HD pretty easily. They have a d12 HD, strong will save/poor fort and ref saves, and the DCs of their abilities increases by 1 per 2 HD. They generally gain 1 CR per 4 HD, so you can get up there a ways fairly quickly.

[JaronK]

In my campaign, a villain was killed, and now he's back as a wraith, brought back through Epic magic. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/animateDead.htm) However, now I'm left with an interesting question.

His body is still there. Can the body be brought back as an undead puppet, preferably something other than a zombie? What is the most powerful form of undead that comes to mind? :smallconfused: Wight comes to mind, but is that my best option?

His body is an object. Therefor, it should be hardened (with the Harden spell) and then a Haunt Shift spell should be used to put the wraith in his body, resulting in a very confusing construct for your players to deal with.

JaronK

[Qwertystop]

His body is an object. Therefor, it should be hardened (with the Harden spell) and then a Haunt Shift spell should be used to put the wraith in his body, resulting in a very confusing construct for your players to deal with.

JaronK

Wait, so its a Wraith in a person suit that looks like a zombie?

[JaronK]

Wait, so its a Wraith in a person suit that looks like a zombie?

But counts as a construct and has a hardness score. Note that in general damage against objects is halved (sometimes quartered, sometimes ignored, depending on damage type) and with a good hardness score you can pretty much shrug off some VERY serious hits.

VERY confusing for lots of people.

JaronK

[Jergmo]

The scenario with the body becoming a Vampire is looking to be very appealing.

The Gang: *Riding along on their magical horses, trying to outpace demon worshippers*
Wraith Version: *Flies up alongside on one side of the gang*
Vampire Version: *Rides up alongside on the other side, atop a skeletal horse with Horseshoes of Speed, pulls out a Gray bag of tricks, and throws a ball of fur at the party leader. Vampire Version hisses, and the ball turns into a cat, attacking her while she's trying to ride her horse.*

[TheCountAlucard]

You could even argue the whole "higher soul, lower soul," mentality. Hun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hun_and_po) and po (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hun_and_po), as it were.

One being the lighter side of the soul, the reasoning part, where the other is instinctual and dark. The po, the lower soul, remains with the body after death, while it's the higher soul that ascends.

With the higher soul animated as a wraith, the lower soul could yet be bound to the body to produce another variety of undead, though likely lacking in a proper identity, since that's part of what the hun carries with it.

[Jergmo]

You could even argue the whole "higher soul, lower soul," mentality. Hun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hun_and_po) and po (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hun_and_po), as it were.

One being the lighter side of the soul, the reasoning part, where the other is instinctual and dark. The po, the lower soul, remains with the body after death, while it's the higher soul that ascends.

With the higher soul animated as a wraith, the lower soul could yet be bound to the body to produce another variety of undead, though likely lacking in a proper identity, since that's part of what the hun carries with it.

So, the Wraith would be cunning, while the body would mainly be a savage, carnal creature? Vampire does work pretty well for that.

[TheCountAlucard]

So, the Wraith would be cunning, while the body would mainly be a savage, carnal creature? Vampire does work pretty well for that.Oooh, ooh, not vampire - hungry ghost! :smalltongue:

A hateful, vengeful creature, unable to rest, animated by the energies of the po, the hungry ghost returns, swollen with rot and burning for revenge! :smalleek: Instead of the traditional weaknesses, it cannot cross a line of salt or sprouted grain, though it still can be destroyed by exposure to sunlight.

But yeah, vampire works, too.

[Jergmo]

Oooh, ooh, not vampire - hungry ghost! :smalltongue:

A hateful, vengeful creature, unable to rest, animated by the energies of the po, the hungry ghost returns, swollen with rot and burning for revenge! :smalleek: Instead of the traditional weaknesses, it cannot cross a line of salt or sprouted grain, though it still can be destroyed by exposure to sunlight.

But yeah, vampire works, too.

I think it works pretty well with the concept of draining from its victims because the way I see it, a vampire draining blood for sustenance is more the creature draining its life essence from its blood, as it circulates through the entire body providing nourishment. The vampire requires sustenance that it can no longer provide itself because its soul is no longer present as an operator.

[Vknight]

This is great and actually solves a similar question for my own campaign.